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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Prime 2.0 said:
Remember eshin friend? Just because we're using ulgu doesn't mean we're painting a target on ourselves for other Ulgu users. Really doesn't work that way.
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Wait, do you mean she won't notice us, or that she wouldn't care if she did? Because Eshin friend isn't really a good example for the latter, we… weren't Allies, really, but weren't active enemies either. And considering that one of the main reasons people want to kill Drycha is because an Ulgu battle mage is really fucking dangerous if left unchecked, we would probably be afforded the same respect.
 
Alratan said:
If she targets and kills Mathilde while Mathilde is distracted, that's a very bad thing. If she targets we want to prevent and kills other valuable units of the army while Mathilde is distracted, that's also a bad thing. If she successfully does something to the forest that is currently keeping her from engaging, that's also very likely a bad thing.

Hence why we don't surrender the initiative to her. You're right, Drycha could chose not to attack Mathilde. We, however, don't want to give her that choice, as anything she chooses to do would be bad for us. We want to deny her the ability to do anything and force her to act on our terms.
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Between the belt and the seed I think we should survive an initial first strike. If she does attack us, then she will be occupied with us and we will have already disrupted the spellcasters. In this hypothetical situation we should then focus on Drycha and will be able to keep her occupied.

In my opinion the big difference between Drycha choosing us and us choosing Drycha to face is that in the latter case we will be going much more for the kill than in the former, but both cases will still accomlish the goal of occupying the enemy Ulgu user.
 
[X] Leader

@Alratan has made some good points. We cannot let ourselves be ambushed and if we hit the spellcasters there are good odds we will, unless she is blinded by her plans for Boris who she thinks is the Boyar at least but I do not think we can count on that.
 
Not even Athel Loren, the strongest Forest in the world, can handle all the threats thrown at it, and they have an entire army of Wood Elves, who aren't officially part of the Forest, involved in its protection. The assumption that Forests can somehow deal with all oncoming threats just because they're magical is bewildering to me.
 
pucflek said:
I doubt that. If the Forest actually wakes up then its deep shit time, because thats the sort of stuff armies don't walk away from. But maybe i really am overestimating them because i misunderstand what Boney was describing they were trying to do.
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I think they're trying to cast the Jade Magic Battle Magic spell Awakening of the Wood, which while probably nasty is a lot less nasty than the significantly higher grade attack spells that Ulgu has. If they were trying to call up the Dwellers Below I'd be much more worried.
 
Mopman43 said:
The Forest Spirits are Drycha's, they aren't locals.

Some (presumed) amount of ability does not necessarily mean it could unilaterally attack threats.
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Sure, but the forest does have its own local spirits. Even if we assume they'd be less buff than Athel Loren's, nothing actually stops the forest from taking action, or for that matter partnering with local humans. It just doesn't give a fuck because Beastmen and Vampires don't chop a lot of wood.
 
Ericwinter said:
Wait, do you mean she won't notice us, or that she wouldn't care if she did? Because Eshin friend isn't really a good example for the latter, we… weren't Allies, really, but weren't active enemies either. And considering that one of the main reasons people want to kill Drycha is because an Ulgu battle mage is really fucking dangerous if left unchecked, we would probably be afforded the same respect.
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I mean that being an ulgu wizard does not make her more likely to notice us sneaking up on her. We can, in fact, do sneaky magical shit and expect it to make us more sneaky, and mathilde knows what those things are and will use them according to her best judgement.
 
Codex said:
Not even Athel Loren, the strongest Forest in the world, can handle all the threats thrown at it, and they have an entire army of Wood Elves, who aren't officially part of the Forest, involved in its protection. The assumption that Forests can somehow deal with all oncoming threats just because they're magical is bewildering to me.
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This. Also if Dyrcha can use magic to simply achieve her goals, then why has she brought an entire army thus causing the Kislev army to be also raised if she could accomplish the same goal using stealth + magic.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Drycha Quest turn two

A loremaster skilled in shadow magic as come out of hiding and has TP'd to your spellcasters. She is likely going to keep them tied up, or worst kill them and move on to the next key ally.

[] keep on target
'Trust your spellcasters to hold out against the swordswoman for as long as possible.

[] change priorities to the Loremaster
'No, you are the only one that has the ability to keep up with this new threat if she proves dangerous, she is currently tied down among your ranks and away from hers, it's better to TP over there now instead of letting her have free rain to do her mischief.

What would you pick if you where Drycha quest? Because I would go for the shadow magic user before she does to much damage. Every other fight is equal.
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I think this is an example of protagonist syndrome. You are imagining that the only target for Drycha is Mathilde, but that is not at all the case. The description of the choice is going to be something like:

'You reach the clearing - or rather, a patch of forest that has been violently turned into a clearing by the axe wielding human defilers - to find all of your forces facing serious resistance.
The bulk of your force is fighting a bunch of human knights as well as some sort of Winter Witch. She's reaping quite the harvest from your Dryads.
A shadow wizard has come out of hiding and has TP'd to your spellcasters. She is likely going to try and keep them tied up, or worse kill them and move on to the next key ally.
One Winter Witch has frozen the lake, and a large part of your forces is trapped inside it. If you don't intervene they might be out for the rest of the battle, or they may even succumb to Winter and die.
Some sort of giant Ice Bird is beating the crap out of the Treeman you have sent after the Boyar. You have no idea what that's about.
And your target itself, the human noble, is holding off your Manticore with his magical spear, a large guard of strangely competent soldiers assisting him.
What do you do?'

Written like that it's far from obvious that the shadow witch is worse than any of the three Ice Witches, or from the elite commander and his guard whose death or capture would be a serious blow to the enemy.
 
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VoiceOfTheRiders said:
Between the belt and the seed I think we should survive an initial first strike. If she does attack us, then she will be occupied with us and we will have already disrupted the spellcasters. In this hypothetical situation we should then focus on Drycha and will be able to keep her occupied.

In my opinion the big difference between Drycha choosing us and us choosing Drycha to face is that in the latter case we will be going much more for the kill than in the former, but both cases will still accomlish the goal of occupying the enemy Ulgu user.
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If she attacks first, she could be using something like Mindrazor, which may kill in a way that the seed can't heal us from (in Total War she gets an item that makes casting Mindrazor easier).

She can also probably just keep stabbing us if she attacks. Particularly as she will probably have allies to help her if she does so after we engage the Branchwraiths. If she backstabs us after we kill the first of them; the survivors can literally tear us to pieces even if the Belt temporarily stubs her. They will all be able to see what the seed is doing, being nature spirits.
 
mathymancer said:
I think this is an example of protagonist syndrome. You are imagining that the only target for Drycha is Mathilde, but that is not at all the case. The description of the choice is going to be something like:

'You reach the clearing - or rather, a patch of forest that has been violently turned into a clearing by the axe wielding human defilers - to find all of your forces facing serious resistance.
The bulk of your force is fighting a bunch of human knights as well as some sort of Winter Witch. She's reaping quite the harvest from your Dryads.
A shadow wizard has come out of hiding and has TP'd to your spellcasters. She is likely going to try and keep them tied up, or worse kill them and move on to the next key ally.
One Winter Witch has frozen the lake, and a large part of your forces is trapped inside it. If you don't intervene they might be out for the rest of the battle, or they may even succumb to Winter and die.
Some sort of giant Ice Bird is beating the crap out of the Treeman you have sent after the Boyar. You have no idea what that's about.
And your target itself, the human noble, is holding off your Manticore with his magical spear, a large guard of strangely competent soldiers assisting him.
What do you do?'

Written like that it's far from obvious that the shadow witch is worse than any of the three Ice Witches, or from the elite commander and his guard whose death or capture would be a serious blow to the enemy.
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Correct. If Drycha is not tied up, she has the initiative and gets to decide where to ambush at will, and can choose the best target from among the entire Kislev force, up to and including assassinating Boris.

This isn't a good thing.
 
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mathymancer said:
I think this is an example of protagonist syndrome. You are imagining that the only target for Drycha is Mathilde, but that is not at all the case. The description of the choice is going to be something like:

'You reach the clearing - or rather, a patch of forest that has been violently turned into a clearing by the axe wielding human defilers - to find all of your forces facing serious resistance.
The bulk of your force is fighting a bunch of human knights as well as some sort of Winter Witch. She's reaping quite the harvest from your Dryads.
A shadow wizard has come out of hiding and has TP'd to your spellcasters. She is likely going to try and keep them tied up, or worse kill them and move on to the next key ally.
One Winter Witch has frozen the lake, and a large part of your forces is trapped inside it. If you don't intervene they might be out for the rest of the battle, or they may even succumb to Winter and die.
Some sort of giant Ice Bird is beating the crap out of the Treeman you have sent after the Boyar. You have no idea what that's about.
And your target itself, the human noble, is holding off your Manticore with his magical spear, a large guard of strangely competent soldiers assisting him.
What do you do?'

Written like that it's far from obvious that the shadow witch is worse than any of the three Ice Witches, or from the elite commander and his guard whose death or capture would be a serious blow to the enemy.
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The radio of spellcasters to anything else in any army is pretty small so someone who just killed off 3 of those spellcasters... battle magic capable I will remind you, that is a good reason to do something about it fast.
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
This. Also if Dyrcha can use magic to simply achieve her goals, then why has she brought an entire army thus causing the Kislev army to be also raised if she could accomplish the same goal using stealth + magic.
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Because a solo teleporting Ulgu battlemage, even a superhuman one like Drycha, is vastly less effective without having an army to pin enemies in place for her to target, whether for teleport assassinations, for the big spells that do direct damage like Pit of Shades, or massively buff units like Mindrazor. I mean, seriously, is she get Mindrazor off on a unit of dryads they'd probably go through the Kidlevite like hot knives through butter.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
I mean that being an ulgu wizard does not make her more likely to notice us sneaking up on her. We can, in fact, do sneaky magical shit and expect it to make us more sneaky, and mathilde knows what those things are and will use them according to her best judgement.
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Ah, fair enough, though I think the original comment was more that Mathilde wouldn't be doing sneaky stuff with her magic, instead openly attacking the dryads with it, and that Drycha would more readily recognize her own kind of magic, not necessarily notice.
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
This. Also if Dyrcha can use magic to simply achieve her goals, then why has she brought an entire army thus causing the Kislev army to be also raised if she could accomplish the same goal using stealth + magic.
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…Huh? I'm sorry, are you trying to say that her magic and stealth isn't as useful because she had to bring an army? Because, uh, she's more dangerous with the army. It's what made the battle possible, and a battle is where she's the most dangerous. It's not an either or thing, they compliment each other.
 
The argument that it's fine to give Drycha free reign to intervene however she wants because rather than choosing to kill Mathilde from ambush she might instead choose to kill someone else we don't want to die seems a bit of a weak one to me…

Ericwinter said:
Ah, fair enough, though I think the original comment was more that Mathilde wouldn't be doing sneaky stuff with her magic, instead openly attacking the dryads with it, and that Drycha would more readily recognize her own kind of magic, not necessarily notice.
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Exactly; I was arguing that by attacking the Branchwraiths Mathilde would be going loud in a way that Drycha was particularly likely to notice because there shouldn't be someone else throwing large amounts of Ulgu about on the battlefield.
 
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Yeah, the hidden assumption here seems to be that Drycha is paying this like a tabletop battle. In which the goal is basically to kill everything that opposes you, and things are always roughly balanced so it is possible.

I think that she's actually seeing this as an ambush, will flee when our reinforcements arrive, and has one particular target. Unexpected resistance is to be ignored if possible, and that includes any fools hunting her directly, so the objective can be accomplished and she can flee before the the mortal threat that she knows exists everywhere outside her woods can be brought to bear against her.

So my bet is that based on votes, we hunt her, she hunts Boris, and we lose that game because she's more powerful and therefore will be able to act first. We are going to end up in a running teleport chase away from the armies as she tries to get Boris to a world root before we can kill her or him.

Which, well massively cinematic, does put us in a one-on-one duel with her where we have to go to her and she knows it.
 
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I hesitated a lot, but finally I'll change my vote. I still think attacking Drycha is ridiculously dangerous and would prefer not to fight her alone.

But being attacked by her would be even worse, like her casting battle magic on our allies. She's what, 4000 years old? She probably has spells much more powerful than the Greys' at her disposal. And the Winged Hussars can charge down the mountainside on the 3 casters.


[X] Leader
 
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My only gripe with going for Drycha is that it's not as visible as reducing to ash a 10 meters tall treeman to ashes but hey... I wonder, if we could lend the death flask to someone else before going to hunt Drysha?

I mean, it's not like it's hard to use isn't it? You take a chug and blow on the enemy. And I don't think it's likely the flask would be that crucial in a fight against Drysha.

[] Lend the Dragon Flask to someone, then Leader

[X] Leader
 
Redshirt Army said:
Correct. If Drycha is not tied up, she gets to decide where to ambush at will, and can choose the best target from among the entire Kislev force, up to and including assassinating Boris.

This isn't a good thing.
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This is an argument for why taking down Drycha will be better than taking down the spellcasters if we actually manage to pull it off. It is not argument for how soloing Drycha is somehow safer than fighting the spellcasters, which a number of posters seem to be arguing. I agree that if we could snap our fingers and either take down the spellcasters or take down Drycha then the better pick is Drycha, but that's not our choice. We can try to go after the spellcasters, and we can try to go after Drycha alone, with no possible reinforcements coming to help us, I cannot stress this enough, but one choice is far likelier to end with us actually taking down our intended target than the other, and it is not the one where we solo Drycha.
 
Glau said:
Yeah, the hidden assumption here seems to be that Drycha is paying this like a tabletop battle. In which the goal is basically to kill everything that opposes you, and things are always roughly balanced so it is possible.

I think that she's actually seeing this as an ambush, will flee when our reinforcements arrive, and has one particular target. Unexpected resistance is to be ignored if possible, and that includes any fools hunting her directly, so the objective can be accomplished and she can flee before the the mortal threat that she knows exists everywhere outside her woods can be brought to bear against her.

So my bet is that based on votes, we hunt her, she hunts Boris, and we lose that game because she's more powerful and therefore will be able to act first. We are going to end up in a running teleport chase away from the armies as she tries to get Boris to a world root before we can kill her or him.

Which, well massively cinematic, does put us in a one-on-one duel with her where we have to go to her and she knows it.
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You are kinda ignoring Boris in this idea, who is still a hero-unit and has at least one magic item.

It would be really weird if she could just capture or kill him without rolling against him as well, besides rolling against us of course.
 
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