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What exactly about the Gas Mask Incident means that he is not a good scout?
I assume because he didn't think of the consequences of destroying the flasks causing the whole K8P clusterfuck. To be fair, Mathilde didn't consider it either, but at least she wasn't the one to suggest it.

Things turned out our way, but they could have gone sideways very, very fast without our luck. I don't think it means he's bad at scouting, but sometimes his desire to keep it simple can cause problems.
 
You mean instead of being sneaky he just rushed the enemy , destroyed the flasks and killed the guards part.
A) Does that mean that Mathilde is not a good scout, given that she was perfectly fine with that?

B) I don't see how that matters here, the essence of scouting is 'Acquire information' and 'Get back with that information'. I don't think he's going to be any worse off than the Ungols.

Johann repeatedly penetrated deep into the territory of multiple Skaven Clans with and without Mathilde, he is capable of some amount of stealth.
 
You mean instead of being sneaky he just rushed the enemy , killed the guards part, and destroyed the flasks. I like Johnan but he is not exactly subtle.
Malfean Stealth is also stealth.

Edit: And if you successfully executed Malfean stealth, your scouting is also complete. Just report "no enemies spotted"
 
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Total Warhammer 3 presents a very interesting type of tree? wooden post? in Kislev:
I have no idea what it's supposed to represent or if it's a reference to something, but it looks like a Hag thing. Hey, maybe these can serve as Waystone tributaries or as territorial wards or something. I assume they have some mystical significance.
 
Total Warhammer 3 presents a very interesting type of tree? wooden post? in Kislev:
I have no idea what it's supposed to represent or if it's a reference to something, but it looks like a Hag thing. Hey, maybe these can serve as Waystone tributaries or as territorial wards or something. I assume they have some mystical significance.
It looks like East European Path Totem.

Lots of them I. Parks and front yards.
 
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You share the most relevant of the capabilities of Johann and yourself, and spark a brief and confusing debate over whether the Mystifying Miasma actually interferes with the flow of time or just mortal perception of it, which then evolves into an even more abstract argument over whether there is a meaningful distinction between the two.

Well, it worked against the slaanesh demons, are they mortal?
 
I'm voting scout. Better to keep more people alive than figure out what's up with the boyar. Not all things will have clear answers and that's alright with me.
 
The funny thing is that Mathilde hasn't even made a contract with any authorities, so theoretically she's not even operating under any of the Articles. It's not like she's breaking them, but she's certainly not even operating under them. This would apply:

If she actually negotiated any sort of contract. I guess she can sort of be her own employer at the moment. Not that it matters, but I think it's funny that Kislev just accepted Mathilde into this whole military endeavour despite her having absolutely no papers or authorisation for this. No time for paperwork, we got trees to kill.

The Kislevites are rolling with it because just showing up to a battle and throwing down is how their native magic-users tend to operate, but if pressed Mathilde could make a pretty strong argument that Drycha would qualify as needing seeking out and countering under Article 15.

This hypothetical conversation would imply that the Boyar is talking to the Tzar, which could only happen after the Boyar reached Resvynhaf. If the Boyar doesn't want to give Mathilde answers when she intercepts him on the road then couldn't he just do that? And by the time they both reach Resvynhaf the Tzar might back Mathilde up, but that rather defeats the point of riding to find him. I might have misunderstood what the action '[ ] [GREY] Investigate Boyar Kalashinivik' means, is it about staying in Resvynhaf and waiting for the Boyar?

I'm playing out this exchange in my head. I explain the various possible paths of investigation she might pick between, possibly also explaining that determining the whole range of options and how Mathilde might choose between them is an effort I'm not super keen on doing for something that is currently just one possible option among any. And then that explanation starts getting generally folded, spindled, and mutilated to try to pare it down as much as possible, because now that I've given hard details people treat it as a puzzle to be solved. I'm now having to field all sorts of hypotheticals for hypotheticals as people try to calculate the possible range of the Boyar's ETA, the amount of information local villagers might possess and the most time-efficient way to extract it, the security that the Boyar's residence might possess and whether and how much it would have been weakened by the mobilization of the local rota, and likely a bunch of things I haven't even thought of yet - but will have had to, should we go down this path. All this happening at the expense of the discussion of the actual vote at hand. And at the end of all that time and effort we either reach a point where it is finally agreed that yes, sometimes doing things does take time, or at some point I've run out of patience and slammed the topic shut, to the detriment of the health of the thread and the enjoyment I normally derive from it.

Do we really have to do all that? Can't you just take me at my word that these are mutually exclusive actions?

@Boney could we get one of the witches to investigate the Boyar?

No.
 
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The Kislevites are rolling with it because just showing up to a battle and throwing down is how their native magic-users tend to operate
I guess when hag witches who are only powerful on their home ground are your most common spell casters you have to learn to be flexible.
 
@mathymancer when someone does more organic GM-ing as this quest does poking the abstraction, especially for instances of time management is really stressful I say this from experiance it is what almost made me shut down a quest several times and then it was a significant part to actually shutting it down.
 
I'm playing out this exchange in my head. I explain the various possible paths of investigation she might pick between, possibly also explaining that determining the whole range of options and how Mathilde choose within them is an effort I'm not super keen on doing for something that is currently just one possible option among any. And then that explanation starts getting generally folded, spindled, and mutilated to try to pare it down as much as possible, because now that I've given hard details people treat it as a puzzle to be solved. I'm now having to field all sorts of hypotheticals for hypotheticals as people try to calculate the possible range of the Boyar's ETA, the amount of information local villagers might possess and the most time-efficient way to extract it, the security that the Boyar's residence might possess and whether and how much it would have been weakened by the mobilization of the local rota, and likely a bunch of things I haven't even thought of yet - but will have had to, should we go down this path. All this happening at the expense of the discussion of the actual vote at hand. And at the end of all that time and effort we either reach a point where it is finally agreed that yes, sometimes doing things does take time, or at some point I've run out of patience and slammed the topic shut, to the detriment of the health of the thread and the enjoyment I normally derive from it.

Do we really have to do all that? Can't you just take me at my word that these are mutually exclusive actions?
I am sorry if my questions came across as not taking you at your word or anything of that nature. I asked because I genuinely didn't understand the way the action worked, I thought it was mutually exclusive with the other actions because we're currently in a time sensitive situation but that after the battle it might be a different matter. I really am sorry, but I don't know how to avoid this sort of thing in the future, I genuinely don't understand the point at which I crossed a line.
 
Gonna dip out of the thread for a bit (I have the US federal holiday off from work and a burning desire to conquer Eastern Europe), but here are my pre-vote-open final thoughts:
  • I think the utility Mathilde offers the scouting action over Johann, while nonzero, is low compared to the "investigate the Boyar action" (which nobody else can do).
  • I don't think it will matter on the battlefield, but between the Ice Witches and the infantry we got here in time for the battle, I am less concerned with the battlefield than I am with the broader political and strategic implications.
  • Our odds of finding out answers for why this happened after the battle are low to none. Boney is more than happy to let us swing in the wind if we choose to not get answers (cf Karag Dum). These may or may not come back to bite us -- I am leaning towards "low chance to bite us in the future," but I'd be lying if I said I thought the chance was very low.
  • Presenting a neatly-wrapped solution to the mystery of why this happened is a good way of ingratiating ourselves with Kislevite leadership, which helps us get resources we want for the Waystone Project, which is why we're here in the first place.
On the flip side, there's this:
The Tzar's strategy is designed to provoke a quick response. It is extremely possible that you might miss quite a lot if you are not ready to react.
If we're off investigating, we might miss a lot of the battle before we can get back. I'm not going to pretend this isn't a scary downside.

Complicating this is that while what I want the Ice Witches to do is constant, what I want Johann to do is contingent on what Mathilde is doing: if Mathilde is investigating the Boyar, I want Johann helping the scouts, but if Mathilde is scouting I want Johann on patrol with the city rotas. So I guess I'll just approval vote and delete depending on how the Mathilde side of things goes.

[X] [GREY] Investigate Boyar Kalashinivik
[X] [GOLD] Scouting the forest with the krugs
[X] [GOLD] Patrolling the path with the city rotas
[X] [ICE] Guarding the forest rotas as they expand and fortify the path
 
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I am sorry if my questions came across as not taking you at your word or anything of that nature. I asked because I genuinely didn't understand the way the action worked, I thought it was mutually exclusive with the other actions because we're currently in a time sensitive situation but that after the battle it might be a different matter. I really am sorry, but I don't know how to avoid this sort of thing in the future, I genuinely don't understand the point at which I crossed a line.
The second question you asked. If you stopped at the first question after Boney posted the hypothetical conversation, then you wouldn't have crossed any lines. Boney gave you two answers, once it gets to the third, he starts to lose patience because it looks like you won't stop asking him questions and interrogating every answer he gives.
 
I assume because he didn't think of the consequences of destroying the flasks causing the whole K8P clusterfuck. To be fair, Mathilde didn't consider it either, but at least she wasn't the one to suggest it.

Things turned out our way, but they could have gone sideways very, very fast without our luck. I don't think it means he's bad at scouting, but sometimes his desire to keep it simple can cause problems.

Ehhh I'm don't hold not predicting the consequences of the lab raid against either Johann or Mathilde. I think even in their wildest, lowest possible expectation, imaginings did they think the Skaven would go "let's dump the chemical waste melange into the EMPEROR DRAGONS face." I'd think even the thread beforehand if someone suggested it would go "lol no, no way we're lucky enough for the Skaven to pick a fight with the dragon." I mean sure it turns out apprently they didn't have literally anywhere else to dump the waste, but I think that whole cluster fuck was waaaayy out of any reasonable probability clouds.

Re votes, I think Ice Witches with the tree cutters for rapid response/protection plus potential shipping is good. And while I'm so tempted to have Mathy search for answers, she should realistically be scouting or in standby. Johann is the??? For me. I think he could generally fit in anywhere so????

Edit Just read @picklepikkl post now I'm retempted by finding the Boyar...
 
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Pretty sure we used it on the daemonettes.
You're right. I didn't remember it because Boney didn't show the rolls for it, so I didn't remember the debuff, but this did happen:
You turn your attention back to the Daemonettes, confident that their leader is more than occupied between a miscast and a dragon, and envelop them in a fog of temporal instability as they try to leap atop the makeshift parapets, causing many to misjudge their jumps and slam face-first into the stone and one to overshoot the fortifications entirely and land amidst the still-reeling Winter Wolves.
 
  • Presenting a neatly-wrapped solution to the mystery of why this happened is a good way of ingratiating ourselves with Kislevite leadership, which helps us get resources we want for the Waystone Project, which is why we're here in the first place.

I think you are vastly overestimating how much Kilsev wants answers for this vs how much they just want to win the fight. I mean think of what they called Athel Loren 'the land of daemon elves and mad spirits'. Do mad spirits need a reason do be mad? Certainly if we find a reason, if we find that someone tempted their wrath and caused this they are not going to knock it, but conversely I do not think there is anyone in Kislev what has an issue with the reasoning for the fight 'Drycha be crazy yo'.

Aid in battle i
s already a great way of ingratiating ourselves with Kislevite leadership, which helps us get resources we want for the Waystone Project, which is why we're here in the first place.
 
I am sorry if that my questions came across as not taking you at your word or anything of that nature. I asked because I genuinely didn't understand the way the action worked, I thought it was mutually exclusive with the other actions because we're currently in a time sensitive situation but that after the battle it might be a different matter. I really am sorry, but I don't know how to avoid this sort of thing in the future, I genuinely don't understand the point at which I crossed a line.

Follow-up questions in pursuit of a better understanding are fine - encouraged, even - but if the QM just told you your plan was flawed and you reach a point of asking a follow-up to a follow-up to a follow-up, it becomes extremely easy for a QM to see that as contentious.
 
Look, I don't care about the Boyar or why Drycha is here. He's a chaos worshipping vampire that chopped down a sacred grove whilst wearing a sacred relic of Ursun or something. Honestly, it doesn't matter.

We're here to a) discover and deal with the threat on the Kislev/Ostermark boarder for Paranoth and b) earn favour with Boris and the Ice Witches so they will be more willing to join the Waystone project.

Running away from the battle to interrogate the nobleman who's also absent from the battle does not benefit either of these objectives. At best it means we can say "Drycha was hunting for this specific reason" in our report to Paranoth, at worst it means that the Ice Witches and Boris see us abandon a battle we orchestrated, keeping ourselves out of harm's way whilst the Kislevian army died to eliminate a threat we came hunting.

Do you think Ljiljana would be willing to risk both her life and the life of her former apprentice if Mathilde "soloed a chaos champion" Weber wasn't also going to be at the same battle?
 
Man, thread got heated. I will say that knowing why a random group of violent athel Loren trees/warriors are here fucking shit up can very much influence the battle. Knowing what your enemy is targeting helps in beating him. Though I also can see the problem with leaving the army to investigate. I will say that I think investigating the Boyar would have helped more then getting 1 1/2 battle ready ice witches. And people going "its not important why there here" don't understand warfare. If you don't know what the target of an attack is then how can you defend against it. Maybe drycha will tumble into the trap hand over root, or maybe we have fucked up and played into her cards, we can't tell. So let's hope we didn't miscalculate massively
 
That is what it comes down to it yeah, Drycha is going to try to kill a lot of people when battle starts, because that is what battle is. Now maybe she is going to roll all ones and pratfall herself into not hurting a single hair on the head of any Kislevite, but I kind of doubt it so now every scrap of information we may get is going to be weighed against whatever lives we could have saved. So you have to wonder what do the people of Kislev value more, answers or the lives of kith and kin? I am betting on the latter.

Man, thread got heated. I will say that knowing why a random group of violent athel Loren trees/warriors are here fucking shit up can very much influence the battle. Knowing what your enemy is targeting helps in beating him. Though I also can see the problem with leaving the army to investigate. I will say that I think investigating the Boyar would have helped more then getting 1 1/2 battle ready ice witches. And people going "its not important why there here" don't understand warfare. If you don't know what the target of an attack is then how can you defend against it. Maybe drycha will tumble into the trap hand over root, or maybe we have fucked up and played into her cards, we can't tell. So let's hope we didn't miscalculate massively

I mean for one this presupposes that if we gently poke the Boyar we will get not only answers but actionable intelligence. Say the Boyar is a Chaos worshiper who burned 66 Holy Groves in honor of Slaansh and say further that he just up and tells us. How is that going to help us against the murder trees?
 
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That is what it comes down to it yeah, Drycha is going to try to kill a lot of people when battle starts, because that is what battle is. Now maybe she is going to roll all ones and pratfall herself into not hurting a single hair on the head of any Kislevite, but I kind of doubt it so now every scrap of information we may get is going to be weighed against whatever lives we could have saved. So you have to wonder what do the people of Kislev value more, answers or the lives of kith and kin? I am betting on the latter.
No I more meant "maybe drycha joins us in straight battle" or she she does something completely unexpected and fucks over parts of Kislev somewhere else. As long as we don't know her motives we can not predict her movements. Maybe she wants the (maybe) vampire boyar for a magic trinket to free her beloved, or maybe she only needs "the leader of the ones who cut the Forrest!" to do a ritual to do something. We got no clue.

Edit to your edit: if that's the case we can throw the Boyar to drycha and have her fuck off?
 
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