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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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mathymancer said:
I've been searching the thread for any further hints about Halétha - I'm pretty sure there aren't any that haven't already been discussed - and I came across her mention in Mathilde's promotion to Lady Magister. To those that don't remember, this is what our Patriarch and fellow LMs had to say about the space the Grey College inhabits:

So, obviously, I'm interested in the relation of this space to Halétha and the Hedgewise that Kupfer and Kurtis suggest, but beyond that I've been thinking about what this plane might be. I haven't read all the comments that were posted after that update so maybe this idea already came up, but I think that the answer to the question 'which of the LM is right' is 'all of them'. My idea is that this plane is the boundary - not a boundary, but the boundary, the platonic ideal of boundary.

We know that the Aethyr gives form to ideas and beliefs, and the idea of boundaries in general certainly has mystical and symbolic significance in the minds of mortals: in that sense the existence of such a place is simply a novel application of existing principles, as Melkoth says. But it is also the border between the Aethyr and reality, as Algard suggests, and the border between life and death, as Starke suggests, and the border between civilization and wilderness that the Hedgewise call the Hedge. It is the border, and so it either is, or in some sense contains, all other borders. And of course it is Ulgu that allows mortals to access it and Ulgu that draws power from it for its spells, since Ulgu is among other things the wind of boundaries.

So far so good, but what does any of this have to do with Halétha? According to Kupfer, the forest of shadows has some connection to that space, and Halétha somehow gave access to it to those who are opposed to it. I don't have any idea what that could mean, but since I assume that literally every other theory given to Mathilde is in some sense true, I have to imagine that Kupfer knows what he is talking about. If I'm right, this means that Halétha has as part of her domain some power over the metaphorical concept of boundaries. So Halétha is a goddess of a place which has shadows in its name, and is related to the Hedge and the place that the grey college is in, both of which are related to boundaries. Shadows and boundaries - just add confusion and mists and you have all the major themes of Ulgu. So Halétha is, if not quite a Goddess of Ulgu, at least a Goddess that has a strong connection to Ulgu, like Morr has with Shyish. Having her in our corner could be quite useful.

Anyway, don't mind me, I'm just trying to hype myself up about Halétha. You know, in order to make the moment we find out Ranald's daughter is the minor goddess of carpentry all the more painful.
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That is actually the first point that actually convinced me that haletha might be ranalds daughter. Mostly because of the connection to ulgu (which, Tbh ranald also is pretty close too most of the time) and to the general theme. She protects from the forest of shadows and seems to be involved in the hedge... It's not any concrete evidence but its a start.
 
Chopak said:
I think it's a literal translation of "Beyond". The fact that this literal translation does not work at all is not something that has stopped GW before.


OK, maybe this requires a bit of longer explanation on my part :) As a Polish, I can only analyse it from the polish perspective. Maybe it makes more sense in russian or bulgarian.
Warhammer wiki states that Za is not a word for Chaos itself, but rather for the Chaos Realm, Aethyr. And it's supposed to mean "From beyond". Now, while "za" is a correct (in some uses) translation of "beyond", it is not a correct translation of "from beyond". It would be "spoza" or "zza" (I think in russian it's "из-за" - "iz-za") . Maybe GW chose "za" as a common part of polish and russian translation? But there's more...
English is a very flexible language, you can verb almost any noun (see how I just used "verb" even tough it's a noun? :) ) and noun verbs, adjectives and so on.. so while in english, calling the Chaos Realm "From Beyond", "Beyond", or something like that works, in polish it just does not. We do sometimes turn adjectives or adpositions into nouns, but very rarely it's done directly. Moreover, now that bit is my personal feeling, we have very few such short nouns and so they feel weird and unnatural. Like it's a foreign name. So personally, I feel it should almost never be called simply "Za", but rather "Ląd Poza", "Kraina Zza" or maybe "Zakraina" (I actualy like that one).
Now, one could argue, that ages ago, it was indeed called "Kraina Zza", which then due to language drift was shortened to "Za" and then extended to all of Chaos. But I don't buy that.
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Yes, I think I see the issue. We lack articles, so, unlike English, we can't just slap a "the" to anything to make it a noun. "The Za" is something that can realistically form over language evolution, but for standalone "Za" - I don't think so.

Moreover this particular quest has treated it as the word for Chaos itself - when our favorite ice crone called a Khorne daemon "Za-Nekulturny". And while the word "Uncultured" is extremely amusing in the context, the preposition makes little sense.

I suppose chalking it up to "not something that has stopped GW before" and just enjoying the story is fair enough. I just wondered if there's a more legit explanation in South or West Slavic languages that I'm much less familiar with.
 
Codex said:
I thought it would be fun to go over every Duke of Bretonnia in canon (remember 2522 IC) to get an idea of what the canonical rulers of Bretonnia look like:
Duke Taubert of L'Anguille: Former Sailor, excellent fighter. Has never set foot on a ship in fifteen years after a mysterious voyage, and completely and totally avoids the capital city of his Dukedom, appointing stewards to rule over the place. He spends all his time next to the Forest of Arden fortifying Castle Grasgar against the Forest of Arden and fighting Beastmen, which earns him the love and admiration of the rural peasantry. Not so much for the richer and more noble residents of the city of L'Anguille, as the steward left in charge of the city is the wealthiest merchant in Bretonnia and head of the Bretheren of the Lighthouse, an incredibly powerful merchant organisation that is slowly but surely pushing for the independence of the city of L'Anguille, sort of like Marienburg. Considering Taubert's lack of desire to get within five miles of the city, they might even succeed.

Duke Armand of Aquitaine: Grail Knight and former Battle Standard Bearer of Bretonnia, he was appointed Duke of Aquitaine after his brother the Duke passed away. He never expected to inherit, so he set out on the quest. Excellent combatant. Spends most of his time going from place to place to deal with the many feuds of his Dukedom, which he does well on, but he doesn't understand the meaning of delegation. He does everything himself and every time he solves a problem two more pop up. Prefers to have something to hit.

Duke Chilfroy of Artois: Large and scary man, powerful warrior (you're seeing a pattern aren't you?). Grim and never smiles unless he's seeing his enemies crushed before him. Doesn't care for politics and spends all his time hunting monsters and Beastmen. As the book says "The Duke is most active here, hunting down Beastmen and occasionally riding to the rescue of a besieged settlement. Even more occasionally, he arrives in time to do more than scare off carrion crows." Earl Larret is the real power in Artois, having total control over the more populous Eastern Artois and involving himself in politics. He plans and plots to at least get a Barony, but possibly attain Dukehood, although that would require evidence that Chilfroy was consorting with the Ruinous Powers. He doesn't mind it being improved evidence.

Duke Bohemond of Bastonne: Grail Knight, powerful warrior (again? This is getting old), specialised in fighting monsters and is known as "Beastslayer". Utterly loyal to Louen, but well... "Indeed, he delegates the whole business of administering his dukedom to his steward and justice to his justiciar. Alas, he is not a very good judge of character, and finds himself replacing these men with distressing frequency."

Duke Alberic of Bordelaux: Highly disciplined with absurdly high standards, which results in him having the smallest retinue in the Kingdom, albeit a very good one. Desperately wants to seek the Grail but weighed down by his responsibilities, never having the chance to go on the Quest before he became a Duke. Looking for a competent steward to run his Dukedom while he goes Questing (his high standards probably obstruct him here, he's getting old).

Duke Thoderic of Brionne: Giant of a man, powerful and a terror on the battlefield. Also loves poetry, music and is a bit of a minstrel himself. Always leads from the front and always comes back wounded. Rumored to be involved in amorous affairs.

Duke Huebald of Carcassonne: Familar? That's because he's the Duke we met in DL. He's older in canon. Described as stoic, never been known to laugh, he's small, wiry and fast rather than powerful. One of the most powerful leaders of men in Bretonnia and willing to engage in "unsavory" tactics like ambushes and feints against monstrous opponents like Orcs, justifying that they wouldn't show honor to them so why should the Bretonnians?

King Louen Leouncouer of Couronne: Grail Knight, King and Duke. "King Louen frequently takes the field with his troops, and when he does so, he rides a hippogriff, striking fear into his enemies. His prowess in battle is such that even those who meet him dismounted are prone to running away, and the King's presence on the battlefield seems to grant Bretonnians greater courage.

Away from war, he is renowned as a just monarch. He will not allow the letter of the law to cloak abuses of its spirit, and even the lowliest noble can seek a personal audience. The King has issued a decree that none are to suffer for what they say during such an audience, and he enforces it. Whenever the King gets involved, justice is done.

The only regret most Bretonnians have is that their King is still only one man."

Also notable in Couronne is Earl Adalbert, the Marquis of the Marches, who plans to become a Baron and expand his reach into Marienburg and conquer it for himself.

Duke Hagen of Gisoreux: Uptight Grail Knight who really holds close to the virtues of Knighthood. He is never mindful of the consequences and is very rigid in his worldview, and acts as a close companion and advisor to Louen, who is more politically savvy and realises following Hagen's advice could be disastrous. They're keeping a close eye on each other, and Hagen's uptightness is getting on the nerve of the Northern Gisorens who don't find it flattering to have their Duke moving closer to them and harping on their traditions for being improper.

Duke Adalhard of Lyonesse: He's simple, so let me quote the book: "Duke Adalhard appears to be a simple man. He excels on the battlefield and, whilst off it, enjoys feasting, gambling, and the other entertainments of warriors. Some observers of his style have suggested that his true loyalty is to Ulric, not the Lady of the Lake, and blame it on the Norscan blood found in northern Lyonesse. The Duke keeps himself aloof from the politics of his dukedom as far as possible.

If a conflict spreads to the point that he can't ignore it, he typically takes his forces in, crushes all parties, seizes their lands, and declares a resolution. This has been effective every time he has done it, so the nobility now try to keep their scheming from drawing the attention of their lord."

Duke Folcard of Montfort: An excellent warrior who doesn't fight on horseback because of Montfort's mountainous terrain. Actually cares about peasants and personally arrives to relieve them of threats, then sets up a temporary court to address any injustices in the area. Most beloved knight in the Kingdom by peasans.

Duke Cassyon of Parravon: Youngest of the Dukes in his early twenties. Despite that, he's a Grail Knight who rides a Royal Pegasus and is exceptionally good in combat. A Shonen Protagonist. His advisors find it impossible to dislike him because he is so open and enthusiastic, holding no malice to anyone, but he thinks every problem can be solved by flying up to it and smashing it. He's very good at that, but not at anything else.

Duke Tancred II of Quenelles: A very old Grail Knight, experienced and powerful. Fought and defeated Heinrich Kemmler in La Maisontaal Abbey in 2491 IC (hasn't happened yet). All his sons are dead except for one who has disappeared on a Grail quest for a long time now. Feeling his mortality. Quenelles looks to be facing a succession crisis as a result.
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Looking back on my list, it's astonishing how many of these Dukes are Grail Knights. Boney said before that generally Dukes are only Grail Knights if they're overachievers, it's not expected for them to be Grail Knights.

Putting aside the King, who is also the Duke of Couronne and has to be a Grail Knight, then there are 12 Dukes. Of those 12, 5 (Cassyon, Tancred, Bohemond, Armand and Hagen) are Grail Knights. Of them, Cassyon thinks everything can be solved by hitting it on the head, Bohemond leaves all the day to day work to other people but he's a terrible judge of character, Hagen has a serious stick up his ass and is extremely inflexible and lacks political savvy due to his tenets of chivalry, Armand does everything by himself and doesn't think to delegate. We don't get much on Tancred aside from him being strong and well liked, but he's very old so he had time to hone his skills through time.

Louen is a genuine rarity for Grail Knights it seems. He knows how to run things. The rest are not qualified at all. Louen's crop is also full of overachievers. If it wasn't for Alberic being constrained by duty, fully half the non King Dukes would be Grail Knights.
 
I personally tend towards the view that "all the Lady's blessings, both in their direct effect of making superhuman hero units, and in their indirect effect of having the ruling class somewhat select for good intentions, almost but not quite make up for the absolutely massive disadvantage that is being shackled to a feudal system".

Historically, feudal systems have not done at all well when compared to more advanced forms of governance - just look at Russia and the Tsars.
 
I think a lot of the feudal system can be better if you can ensure that the ruling class also has a eye out for the lower classes and are not massive dicks. Which yes... Bretonnia can do. But it's still problematic in a advancement kind of way, nothing is going to change in a society like that for centuries.
It's a very... Stable system but it's also stagnant?
 
picklepikkl said:
I alluded to this when I was talking about high medieval tropes, like the Crusades being a great way to absorb excess sons. However, Bretonnia should have the opposite problem, is my point: unlike medieval nobility in real life, the point of Bretonnian nobility is that every single lord has done a stint as a Knight Errant. You can't exercise political authority without being a Knight of the Realm -- it's a legal requirement to be a landholder. So where are they getting enough Knights to do this from, when being a Knight is a dangerous profession and Bretonnia regularly has sufficient surplus Knights Errant to send off in Errantry Wars a la the historical Crusades? Polygyny among Bretonnian Knights isn't sufficient IMO, because the individual incentives to reproduce heavily aren't great; training and outfitting an elite warrior is expensive, and if you're a Knight of the Realm without a large estate (i.e. what the vast majority of Knights of the Realm ought to be), where are you getting the resources to deck out multiple sons in panoply and keep them in horses (not to mention maybe dowering your daughters, though I'm unsure if Bretonnian marital economics have ever been specified)? You can get around this by having someone enforcing mandates of reproduction because it's in society's interest for the nobility's size to keep pace with general population growth even if individual interests to have a lot of children is low, but you can group that in under "Lady-enforced eugenics" from my previous post. When enforced by strictly mundane means, these mandates don't work well -- Rome had its marriage laws to require a certain amount of children per citizen, because the citizenry was falling in number, which were wildly unpopular, for instance -- so it would have to be an outright divine commandment with some level of enforcement attached to it.

Your point about the historical French actually supports my point, because under French law all children of a noble were themselves noble, regardless of whether their father was a landholder or not, allowing for the growth of an unpropertied class of nobility that needed to be dealt with (by e.g. sending them off to wars), and furthermore hereditary nobility could be acquired through service to the crown, either in a single lifetime or amortized over two generations, and even purchased by non-noble landholders. So, you see, the historical French issue of the nobility getting too big was a direct result of them having extremely permissive laws about "who is a noble," and is not an inevitability among countries with noble estates -- England and the Holy Roman Empire solved this with a two-tiered system, the gentry/peerage in England and the niederer adel/hochadel in the HRE, conferring the full privileges of nobility only on the latter, but Bretonnia does not seem to have such a system. They are far, far more similar to Sparta in the laws surrounding their nobility than to medieval France, and as such they should be having the sorts of problems Sparta faced, not the sorts of problems the French faced.
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I'd say that effective polygamy can easily be sufficient. If you have the right social drivers you can easily end up with individual men having large numbers of children. It's potentially (really) not very nice, but there are several historical examples with a lot less motivation than living on a Deathworld with a divinely mandated social order. High casualties amongst Knights Errant plus a strong social desire to pass on your name and preserve your dynasty could easily lead to men choosing to have large numbers of sons. And Knights of the Realm could well be relatively very wealthy as relatively few survive to have children, and it costs no more for one Knight to outfit each of his dozen sons than for a dozen Knights to outfit their eldest. Scale economies of production and redistribution/recycling might even make it cheaper

Note that the laws as we're told them make no mention of legitimacy. The parents don't have to be married, just noble.
 
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Also, that raises the question of if it's just noble grandparents being checked or parents and grandparents. Because if the former, then you could theoretically end up with an ennobled peasant marrying into the nobility, their kids being non nobility but still being able to marry a noble because their kids would be nobles, and then having every other generation alternate between noble and not.
 
Chopak said:
I think it's a literal translation of "Beyond". The fact that this literal translation does not work at all is not something that has stopped GW before.


OK, maybe this requires a bit of longer explanation on my part :) As a Polish, I can only analyse it from the polish perspective. Maybe it makes more sense in russian or bulgarian.
Warhammer wiki states that Za is not a word for Chaos itself, but rather for the Chaos Realm, Aethyr. And it's supposed to mean "From beyond". Now, while "za" is a correct (in some uses) translation of "beyond", it is not a correct translation of "from beyond". It would be "spoza" or "zza" (I think in russian it's "из-за" - "iz-za") . Maybe GW chose "za" as a common part of polish and russian translation? But there's more...
English is a very flexible language, you can verb almost any noun (see how I just used "verb" even tough it's a noun? :) ) and noun verbs, adjectives and so on.. so while in english, calling the Chaos Realm "From Beyond", "Beyond", or something like that works, in polish it just does not. We do sometimes turn adjectives or adpositions into nouns, but very rarely it's done directly. Moreover, now that bit is my personal feeling, we have very few such short nouns and so they feel weird and unnatural. Like it's a foreign name. So personally, I feel it should almost never be called simply "Za", but rather "Ląd Poza", "Kraina Zza" or maybe "Zakraina" (I actualy like that one).
Now, one could argue, that ages ago, it was indeed called "Kraina Zza", which then due to language drift was shortened to "Za" and then extended to all of Chaos. But I don't buy that.
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Expanding on this:

"Ukraine" comes from the Polish "Oukraina", which meant "border region".

"Niemcy", the Polish word for Germany, comes from "nie mówiący", literally "they who don't speak", as in "they don't speak our language".

One of the theories for the etymology of "słowianie", the Polish word for Slavic peoples, is that it stems from "słowo", meaning "word" - which would make the meaning something like "the ones with words [we can understand]".

And "Poland" itself, or rather "Polska", comes from "polane krajina", or "the land of fields".

"Za" itself is an adjective that does mean "beyond", but it also means "behind" and "after", and is used very often in all sorts of daily contexts ("pozatym" means "anyway", and is used the same way in sentences), so trying to enshrine it as the name of Chaos sounds silly to me - it's like calling Chaos "The Up" - but then of course GW likely cared very little about some things about Kislev sounding silly to Slavic peoples.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
If there's no checks on legitimacy then it becomes even more trivial to smuggle peasants into nobility.
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Honestly, from just what I've heard and read of Brettonia in this thread, smuggling peasants into nobility seems very conversant with their idiom.

Everything from the way we see female knights handled, to the updates of Carcassione upholding all manner of polite fictions, speaks to me of a society where the rules are broken all the time --- as a matter of course --- but what's not acceptable is questioning them openly.

It wouldn't surprise me if the real deal is that only three peasants were ever allowed openly acknowledged as climbing to the ranks of nobility.

The alternative, to my eye, is that Brettonia is bleeding nobility, they just started from absurdly high beginnings before things came to their current state. IE, something like Poland's 10% nobility rate, or moreso.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Everything from the way we see female knights handled, to the updates of Carcassione upholding all manner of polite fictions, speaks to me of a society where the rules are broken all the time --- as a matter of course --- but what's not acceptable is questioning them openly.
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Just a clarification, Carcassonne is particularly noted for being exceptional in its pragmatism and practicality, which is why their polite fictions are used so much. This isn't to say that polite fictions don't exist in Bretonnia, but taking Carcassonne as the standard for all of Bretonnia wouldn't be correct, because it's at the extreme end of their system's practicality. Other Dukedoms aren't as relentlessly practical.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not think Teclis really cared about the prestige of being a wizard. What he really needed was an army of mortals he could shove down the throat of the Everchosen. It is not like he set out to make magic legal in the Empire, that was Magnus' idea after he saw what Teclis and company could do.
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Possibly he didn't. I was just coming up a possible reason and "would gain lots of political power" is usually a pretty good reason.
 
Codex said:
If you're interested in each one, I will go over them with a spoiler and then after that go over which ones I think Soizic might go for, but as ever this is your interpretation so feel free to ponder over which one fits:
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Thank you so much! This is enormously useful, and very well timed! I appreciate the work you put in.

I think you make very good points overall on the choices, now I just have to think a little.


Alratan said:
I'd say that effective polygamy can easily be sufficient. If you have the right social drivers you can easily end up with individual men having large numbers of children.
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I feel like you are only looking at one side of the equation, and the less important one to boot. Men are pretty much irrelevant as to the total number of babies. How many women there are, how culture treats them, what sort of medical care does birth and childrearing have- all those are constraints. Having like five men and a hundred women, or five hundred men and a hundred women? You quite possibly get the same reproduction rates for both situations.

So having a bunch of knights to run off and die depends very, very heavily on the noblewomen, which I have heard almost nothing at all about with reference to Brettonia.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Expanding on this:

"Ukraine" comes from the Polish "Oukraina", which meant "border region".

"Niemcy", the Polish word for Germany, comes from "nie mówiący", literally "they who don't speak", as in "they don't speak our language".

One of the theories for the etymology of "słowianie", the Polish word for Slavic peoples, is that it stems from "słowo" - which would make the meaning something like "the ones with words [we can understand]".

And "Poland" itself, or rather "Polska", comes from "polane krajina", or "the land of fields".

"Za" itself is an adjective that does mean "beyond", but it also means "behind" and "after", and is used very often in all sorts of daily contexts ("pozatym" means "anyway", and is used the same way in sentences), so trying to enshrine it as the name of Chaos sounds silly to me - it's like calling Chaos "The Up" - but then of course GW likely cared very little about some things about Kislev sounding silly to Slavic peoples.
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Notices your mutually-intelligible dialect

słowo what's this?
 
QTesseract said:
Also, that raises the question of if it's just noble grandparents being checked or parents and grandparents. Because if the former, then you could theoretically end up with an ennobled peasant marrying into the nobility, their kids being non nobility but still being able to marry a noble because their kids would be nobles, and then having every other generation alternate between noble and not.
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There's actually been some mistakes made on that front.

The requirement for being a noble is that all your ancestors for five generations back are nobles. And there are registers kept of every noble in the kingdom.
Glau said:
So having a bunch of knights to run off and die depends very, very heavily on the noblewomen, which I have heard almost nothing at all about with reference to Brettonia.
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I believe this would be the main section.
Female nobles are not allowed to become knights and are expected to keep house for their husbands, being a fine ornament to his household.

The divide between men and women is the second major divide in Bretonnian society, for the two sexes are far from equal. Men are required to be polite to women at all times. Insulting a woman is a terrible breach of etiquette, and men who violently attack women are punished particularly severely. Men should stand when a woman enters the room and should always let her go first, unless climbing stairs, in which case the man should go first. Women are served first at meals and given the more comfortable rooms in inns.

Of course, these requirements only apply within a class. Noble men are not required to show this level of courtesy to peasant women, though some do and are well regarded for it, as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

On the other hand, women are not allowed to own property, to travel without a male escort, or to undertake most trades and professions. Despite the trappings of courtesy, men are firmly in charge. The Grail Damsels are the most obvious exception to this.

Most women live with the constraints, and a significant number even believe that they are right. Some, however, decide they want to fight or own a shop. In order to do this, they must disguise themselves as men. No one knows how many disguised women there are in Bretonnia at any one time, but solely among the nobility, a Knight is found on his death in battle to be a woman at least once per year.

Female Bretonnian player characters must pretend to be men in order to start their careers. This pretence is automatically successful and requires no Tests of any sort. Unless the woman reveals her true sex, no one notices. Of course, if they leave Bretonnia, they can drop the disguise.

Female adventurers and merchants from foreign countries are likely to become impatient with their treatment. They benefit from the courtesy, but no one takes them seriously, assuming the men in the party must be in charge. Some women who visit Bretonnia frequently pretend to be men whilst they are there in order to avoid the hassle.
 
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I hope Waagh does not count for our can't copy AV-power pledge since it is only one third divine.

Because I want to capture some for teaching purposes as Mathilde has lamented that she could make use of it on hr Waagh lectures. Imagine always having magical superiority against Waaghs since every Journeymen can counterspell them coming from the Apperenticeship, or better every priest could do it, oe even better what crazy stuff Runelords could do if they had Waagh to study (with a seviroscope probably).
 
Ok, that does sound like a 4-6 children per family size is about right. Childhood mortality rates being lower would have to be the rest of the explanation.
 
Glau said:
Ok, that does sound like a 4-6 children per family size is about right. Childhood mortality rates being lower would have to be the rest of the explanation.
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Oh, one other bit of cultural interest. Bretonnian women are stated to all cover their hair, and being deeply embarrassed if anyone sees it. This presumably has the exception of their husband.

(The only exception in general being Damsels)
 
Lupercal said:
To be fair that is stated to be the current fashion in 2522 rather then an eternal cultural landmark.
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I mean, it's so deeply ingrained that it's stated that a women caught naked would sooner cover their hair with a towel than anything else.

I don't see any statement to the effect of "this is the latest trend" or similar.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
Teclis had just sent Malekith fleeing and then utterly wrecked the Druchii army.

He already had all the political power he could want in Ulthuan - going away for decades is hardly the way to increase political support.
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Eh. Teclis was never very popular in Ulthuan. He gets overshadowed by Tyrion. And also looked down on for being a cripple. And even without all that, there's a difference between wanting power for power's sake and wanting it, say, to leverage your reputation to organise stuff like anti-Chaos efforts. Especially because neither Tyrion nor Teclis are particularly good at politics. Tyrion is too forthright, Teclis too caustic. They largely get stuff done by virtue of reputation AFAICT.
 
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