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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
I had a general idea of what to expect before reading the Dark Elves book, but I was not prepared. I was not prepared for how much my SOD would be stretched by the sheer self destructiveness of that society and wondering how the hell it could be in any way a reasonable threat that grows more powerful and hasn't destroyed itself yet.

It's like the Skaven's society made only slightly better, but they don't have the excuse of insane reproductive rates, their gods aren't nearly as interventionist as the Horned Rat, and they don't use the bullshit abilities of Warpstone nearly as much. At every point this society seems determined to cripple itself and cull its citizens in such a manner that I wonder how the hell they ever make up for all these losses. I can't wrap my head around this.
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They have achieved a sufficient concentration of sheer fucking-stupid that the weight of that fucking-stupid has worn thin the walls of reality and permitted the laws of the Aethyr to come into play -- and with so much fucking-stupid affecting reality, reality itself has been rendered too idiotic to keep track of how much they should have self-immolated. As the idiocy of their society is incapable of recognizing that their actions should be killing them off far faster than their replacement rate, Dark Elves will simply appear wherever there is a sufficiently busy street, complete with some vaguely defined history that no-one really remembers. In truth, there are no Dark Elves left who weren't generated ex nihilo, with even their 'immortal' leadership being repeatedly killed off and then simply appearing, because the idea that Malekith and his ilk could actually die is literally inconceivable to the idiot Aethyric echoes that populate Naggaroth.
 
Codex said:
I had a general idea of what to expect before reading the Dark Elves book, but I was not prepared. I was not prepared for how much my SOD would be stretched by the sheer self destructiveness of that society and wondering how the hell it could be in any way a reasonable threat that grows more powerful and hasn't destroyed itself yet.

It's like the Skaven's society made only slightly better, but they don't have the excuse of insane reproductive rates, their gods aren't nearly as interventionist as the Horned Rat, and they don't use the bullshit abilities of Warpstone nearly as much. At every point this society seems determined to cripple itself and cull its citizens in such a manner that I wonder how the hell they ever make up for all these losses. I can't wrap my head around this.
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They basically have the full support of GW in their evil actions. This makes them utterly unbeatable in any GW canon due to unobtanium portals of Dark Elves reinforcing them at need - Which is why the Dark Elves are just about doomed in Warhammer quests that don't feature Dark Elves as the protaganist.
 
Shard said:
They basically have the full support of GW in their evil actions. This makes them utterly unbeatable in any GW canon due to unobtanium portals of Dark Elves reinforcing them at need - Which is why the Dark Elves are just about doomed in Warhammer quests that don't feature Dark Elves as the protaganist.
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I mean, at least in 40k they have the excuse of constantly cloning their expendable footsoldiers/courtiers/'civilians'.
 
Godwinson said:
They have achieved a sufficient concentration of sheer fucking-stupid that the weight of that fucking-stupid has worn thin the walls of reality and permitted the laws of the Aethyr to come into play -- and with so much fucking-stupid affecting reality, reality itself has been rendered too idiotic to keep track of how much they should have self-immolated. As the idiocy of their society is incapable of recognizing that their actions should be killing them off far faster than their replacement rate, Dark Elves will simply appear wherever there is a sufficiently busy street, complete with some vaguely defined history that no-one really remembers. In truth, there are no Dark Elves left who weren't generated ex nihilo, with even their 'immortal' leadership being repeatedly killed off and then simply appearing, because the idea that Malekith and his ilk could actually die is literally inconceivable to the idiot Aethyric echoes that populate Naggaroth.
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... I mean, Teclis did end up shoving Malekith into the Aether. Who's to say that the "Malekith" that came out is the same as the one who entered? :thonk:
 
Redshirt Army said:
... I mean, Teclis did end up shoving Malekith into the Aether. Who's to say that the "Malekith" that came out is the same as the one who entered? :thonk:
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That "Malekith" fought against the Keeper of Secrets N'Kari in plain view of his whole city, showcasing his extereme magical prowess with dark flames and defeating N'Kari in single combat, thereby extending the Atharti celebrations that summoned N'Kari in the first place for an extra day. He then offered N'Kari's headless corpse as an "offering" to "Atharti".

It looks like Slaanesh is treading on Tzeentch's territory again...
 
Voikirium said:
I've got a few head-canons that I think make them work somewhat better, but they are definitely one of those factions which is buoyed by being cool and not by being reasonable. Which I respect, reasonability being overrated and all, but I can kind of see the problem.
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Could you share how you would see them working better?🙂
 
Codex said:
I had a general idea of what to expect before reading the Dark Elves book, but I was not prepared. I was not prepared for how much my SOD would be stretched by the sheer self destructiveness of that society and wondering how the hell it could be in any way a reasonable threat that grows more powerful and hasn't destroyed itself yet.

It's like the Skaven's society made only slightly better, but they don't have the excuse of insane reproductive rates, their gods aren't nearly as interventionist as the Horned Rat, and they don't use the bullshit abilities of Warpstone nearly as much. At every point this society seems determined to cripple itself and cull its citizens in such a manner that I wonder how the hell they ever make up for all these losses. I can't wrap my head around this.
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Yeah, when my own home-brew gets to the Druchi I am going to massively clamp down on the amount of self-sabotaging backstabbing the source material saddles them with. Being the most prolific slavers of the world is sufficient to place them as unambiguous villains.
 
I once said to someone that the Dark Elf Army Book reads like it was propaganda written by the High Elves to make their enemy look bad. And, given the concept that all texts about Warhammer are based on IC texts or stories, that could even be true!
 
Alratan said:
I once said to someone that the Dark Elf Army Book reads like it was propaganda written by the High Elves to make their enemy look bad. And, given the concept that all texts about Warhammer are based on IC texts or stories, that could even be true!
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That makes no sense. It feels like you're stretching this statement to cover every text GW ever produces when it's clearly a cop out answer that they've made to justify why some of their texts don't make sense, because there is functionally no way in which some of the information in these books could be conveyed without the writer being omniscient and omnipresent. If GW truly want me to believe that these books are written from IC sources, then they need to actually back it up and make it look like that instead of presenting it in a factual manner with no disclaimers. I'm not going to take those statements about their books being IC seriously until that is the case.

The book continually states that the High Elves are "traitors" and that Asuryan "betrayed" Malekith and gives internal looks into characters that would be logistically impossible to provide through IC sources. You can try to say that it's all unreliable narrator and you can never trust any book you read from GW, but at that point you might as well just throw the book away and make your own lore.
 
Codex said:
That makes no sense. It feels like you're stretching this statement to cover every text GW ever produces when it's clearly a cop out answer that they've made to justify why some of their texts don't make sense, because there is functionally no way in which some of the information in these books could be conveyed without the writer being omniscient and omnipresent. If GW truly want me to believe that these books are written from IC sources, then they need to actually back it up and make it look like that instead of presenting it in a factual manner with no disclaimers. I'm not going to take those statements about their books being IC seriously until that is the case.

The book continually states that the High Elves are "traitors" and that Asuryan "betrayed" Malekith and gives internal looks into characters that would be logistically impossible to provide through IC sources. You can try to say that it's all unreliable narrator and you can never trust any book you read from GW, but at that point you might as well just throw the book away and make your own lore.
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That essentially sums up my issues with the "its in universe propaganda" defense. Take it to far and you brush the real-life things that effects the writing under the rug and shields the actual works themselves from criticism. It's especially galling if it's also used for some of the more questionable inclusions the source material has accumulated over the years.

I think the way to do it is to split the difference. Have quotes that would be spoken by characters in-universe, present the main information itself in a more objective fashion and put up alternative explanations for things you want to keep mysterious.
 
Codex said:
That makes no sense. It feels like you're stretching this statement to cover every text GW ever produces when it's clearly a cop out answer that they've made to justify why some of their texts don't make sense, because there is functionally no way in which some of the information in these books could be conveyed without the writer being omniscient and omnipresent. If GW truly want me to believe that these books are written from IC sources, then they need to actually back it up and make it look like that instead of presenting it in a factual manner with no disclaimers. I'm not going to take those statements about their books being IC seriously until that is the case.
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I'm not 'stretching the statement'. That's their explicit policy, that literally everything ever written about the settings has an unreliable IC author. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Those IC authors can make statements that they claim are objective facts about the setting that they have no way of knowing are the case, just as people in real life can. Generally, it means that it there's a statement that no one IC could reliably make, that tells us that statement is unreliable, not that it wan't made by someone IC.

And yes, it's a lazy policy invented to explain discrepancies and inconsistencies. It's also a very rational and sensible decision that makes it a lot easier for them to run as a business that exists to sell expensive miniatures.
 
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Alratan said:
I'm not 'stretching the statement'. That's their explicit policy, that literally everything ever written has an unreliable IC author. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.
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One does not need to accept such policy. Whatever was placed in any material is the way the authors intended for us, the readers, to view what's presented to us. It in the end just an excuse for Games Workshop to not have to keep their flimsy continuity straight.

Remember Death of the Author.
 
ShyPerson said:
One does not need to accept such policy. Whatever was placed in any material is the way the authors intended for us, the readers, to view what's presented to us. It in the end just an excuse for Games Workshop to not have to keep their flimsy continuity straight.

Remember Death of the Author.
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We don't have to accept it, but at that point complaining that things that the authors didn't try to make consistent aren't consistent becomes rather unfair.
 
ShyPerson said:
One does not need to accept such policy. Whatever was placed in any material is the way the authors intended for us, the readers, to view what's presented to us. It in the end just an excuse for Games Workshop to not have to keep their flimsy continuity straight.

Remember Death of the Author.
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"Death of the Author" normally means ignoring the author's intent, outside-text statements, personal traits, et cetera, as being irrelevant to one's interpretation of a book. I don't think you should invoke that at the same time as you make bold statements about "the way the authors intended".

Godwinson said:
They have achieved a sufficient concentration of sheer fucking-stupid that the weight of that fucking-stupid has worn thin the walls of reality and permitted the laws of the Aethyr to come into play -- and with so much fucking-stupid affecting reality, reality itself has been rendered too idiotic to keep track of how much they should have self-immolated. As the idiocy of their society is incapable of recognizing that their actions should be killing them off far faster than their replacement rate, Dark Elves will simply appear wherever there is a sufficiently busy street, complete with some vaguely defined history that no-one really remembers. In truth, there are no Dark Elves left who weren't generated ex nihilo, with even their 'immortal' leadership being repeatedly killed off and then simply appearing, because the idea that Malekith and his ilk could actually die is literally inconceivable to the idiot Aethyric echoes that populate Naggaroth.
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Supported, with one small proposed edit: They appear in empty alleys, not busy streets, which means the more of them are dead, the faster they reappear from the alleys left empty. :p
 
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Alratan said:
We don't have to accept it, but at that point complaining that things that the authors didn't try to make consistent aren't consistent becomes rather unfair.
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You have sidestepped the point.

It's also to take the works to task for stuff like the Pygmys and poor portrayals of non European cultures. No amount of hiding under "unreliable narrators" undoes the inclusion of problematic elements or undo breaking of suspension of disbelief.

Anytime someone criticizes the texts, you keep refraining the "unreliable narrator", but myself and codex don't care. Our issues are with the text itself, and you come across as using it as a club to demean our thoughts of the work. It is not engaging with others who want to have a conversation, intentionally or not it's silencing it by parroting a corporate policy. If you have disagree with an opinion, present your own thoughts and opinions on what the text says, not a blanket dismissal.

Do not employ the "unreliable narrator" on me going forwards, I care not what "policy" is.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Mathilde the Everchosen​






And cuts empty air. A feint. Where is he?

To your left. A glint of gold from the hammer high in the air. A glint of silver from the coin hanging from his neck.

Your last thoughts are of a green dress, stained with blood, and the laughing of cruel and wicked gods.

===

So, there you have it—the rather convoluted and tragic chain of events that could lead to an Everchosen Mathilde.

It's not my best work, it's very rough, but I've been writing this for about four hours now, so here, enjoy.
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Thus was the end of Mathilde the Tragic Everchosen. This is pretty great Nerdasaurus Rex.

Call me curious, but will you do more? I'm very curious about how the whole war went and it's aftermath following Everchosen!Mathilde death and the Old World. It certainly would be in a utter mess thanks to Everchosen!Mathilde war machine despite death by holy hammer and even before with the Waystone explosion and Tor Lithanel's doom.
 
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I am in UTTER agreement with codex re: dark elves.

It's even lazy in-universe. These were high elves living in Ulithan as an accepted part of their citizenry. Two people at the top going crazy does not fundementally change an entire population, even if it can drag them into wars. It's like an underpants gnome theory of evil empires-

1. Malekith and his mom lead a political rebellion.
2. ?????
3. Widespread cruelty, slaving, and backstabbing with very little clothing
 
Glau said:
I am in UTTER agreement with codex re: dark elves.

It's even lazy in-universe. These were high elves living in Ulithan as an accepted part of their citizenry. Two people at the top going crazy does not fundementally change an entire population, even if it can drag them into wars. It's like an underpants gnome theory of evil empires-

1. Malekith and his mom lead a political rebellion.
2. ?????
3. Widespread cruelty, slaving, and backstabbing with very little clothing
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the widespread crualty (and the comparison with the modern high elf state) is after over 5000 years of cultural evolution and conflict. Dark Elves are overly intercine but them being a mash up of Canada/the USA/other settle colonies plus sparta works and makes sense given that is what Malekith molded them into as supreme autocrat.
 
Glau said:
I am in UTTER agreement with codex re: dark elves.

It's even lazy in-universe. These were high elves living in Ulithan as an accepted part of their citizenry. Two people at the top going crazy does not fundementally change an entire population, even if it can drag them into wars. It's like an underpants gnome theory of evil empires-

1. Malekith and his mom lead a political rebellion.
2. ?????
3. Widespread cruelty, slaving, and backstabbing with very little clothing
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I mean, Nagarythe was not what the Asur would think of themselves as being, even if they were still technically High Elves before Malekith attempted a coup.
 
Glau said:
I am in UTTER agreement with codex re: dark elves.

It's even lazy in-universe. These were high elves living in Ulithan as an accepted part of their citizenry. Two people at the top going crazy does not fundementally change an entire population, even if it can drag them into wars. It's like an underpants gnome theory of evil empires-

1. Malekith and his mom lead a political rebellion.
2. ?????
3. Widespread cruelty, slaving, and backstabbing with very little clothing
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I personally interpret druchi society as taking hints from its Nagarythe days, with cultural drift from slaving, raiding and emphasis on the Cyntharai pantheon taken to far. And while Cyntharai are the focus of worship, Cadai worship, even of Asuryan and Isha is still practiced and tolerated, they just don't get big temples of holy days.
 
Historyman14 said:
Thus was the end of Mathilde the Tragic Everchosen. This is pretty great Nerdasaurus Rex.

Call me curious, but will you do more? I'm very curious about how the whole war went and it's aftermath following Everchosen!Mathilde death and the Old World. It certainly would be in a utter mess thanks to Everchosen!Mathilde war machine despite death by holy hammer and even before with the Waystone explosion and Tor Lithanel's doom.
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Thanks!

To be honest, I don't think I will return to this. It feels "finished" in my head, and I just tried to capture key snapshots of Mathilde's journey rather than construct a full world, so I'm not sure I could add more without a lot more effort on my part. I have no objection if others want to pick it up and explore it, however.
 
Lupercal said:
Canada/the USA/other settle colonies plus sparta works and makes sense given that is what Malekith molded them into as supreme autocrat.
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idk. Both the idea that Canada/USA/others can work without a strong unifying internal ideology to bind then together (a story about who is part of WE and who is not, with the idea that it's good for us to take from them) and the idea that one person can mold a society. They seem like things that can be said but not in reality make sense, like a trinary computer or a black light.

So yeah. Any overhaul of the world building should probably start from both sides: removing the crazier unworkable stuff as well as giving better justifications to the stuff that remains.
 
Glau said:
idk. Both the idea that Canada/USA/others can work without a strong unifying internal ideology to bind then together (a story about who is part of WE and who is not, with the idea that it's good for us to take from them) and the idea that one person can mold a society. They seem like things that can be said but not in reality make sense, like a trinary computer or a black light.

So yeah. Any overhaul of the world building should probably start from both sides: removing the crazier unworkable stuff as well as giving better justifications to the stuff that remains.
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They *have* a strong unifying ideology. The belief that they where unfairly forced out of their homeland by userpers. They also have a united state religion and a philosophy of racial superiority.
 
Lupercal said:
They *have* a strong unifying ideology. The belief that they where unfairly forced out of their homeland by userpers. They also have a united state religion and a philosophy of racial superiority.
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Right, but all of that is antithetical to backstabbing and betrayal and paranoia as internal constants. The way that having an us and a them works is that within 'us' you can trust and work together, treating people that are part of 'us' differently from 'them'. So... The veneer is the same, but underneath it's the complete opposite.
 
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