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I think you could read the rule of pride to say that apprentices are fully exempt, so that while a graduated runesmith can't even duplicate an item with a single rune, an apprentice can make any duplicates they want.

The 'easy' answer would then be to declare that standards have slipped since Thungni's day, and that almost every living Runesmith is still only an apprentice by traditional standards (Bok may give some evidence for that view), and in their own pride and hubris have mistakenly been thinking the Rune of Pride applies to them when they're not worthy of it.

Under this model, you'd pick up the perpetual apprentice model from the Colleges (and possibly the runepokers' relaxed recruitment standards) and most members of Guild of Runesmiths would spend all or most of their time as apprentices. Only the most talented researchers would be 'promoted' and so be subject to the Rune of Pride.

Pretty sure demotion wouldn't fly and would be a lot more radical than what even Thorek is proposing. His swarm of apprentices model would work even with the restrictive rules on duplication (except for the one where every runed item has to be unique - which very much reads like an game abstraction that's logically contradicted by immediately stating that apprentices can copy runes).

The problem comes with other Master Runesmiths not having apprentice swarms* - which would be excusable if they'd all be a third as good as Kragg but they aren't.

*As a theory as to how this state of things came to be: to deal with massive losses in the time of Woes the Guild might have promoted lots of less skilled Runesmiths who then focused on mastering Battle Runes. Then when the dust was somewhat settled the survivors realised they lost a lot of knowledge - particularly knowledge less relevant for combat and that they weren't capable of recreating that so they trained their apprentices narrowly for warmaking and then those apprentices lost more lore and became even pickier with their apprentices, as the relative importance of runesmithing declined, until nowadays most of the Guild is comprised of has-beens of has-beens.

As a side note, I'll have to look it up, but I think I've seen mention that Thorek isn't the only Runelord in Karak Azul. He may be the most prominent, but he has peers there. I wonder if they're on the same page as him. I dimly reflect this in the context of Anvils of Power, saying that not only do multiple Runelords have them in Azul, but so do some particularly elderly and skilled regular Runesmiths, but they just use them for crafting and don't take them onto the battlefield.

They'd likely be his apprentices or juniors so not exactly peers.
 
That's a lot less of a problem if there's a very large number of compatible runes known, as the number of combinations can get very large very quickly. If there are a thousand other runes that would work with the Rune of Light on a lantern, you can make half a million runic lanterns before you exhaust them.

Alternatively, this could also be a reason the dwarves lost the ability to make the utility runes. Ever single known combination was made, and the dwarves stopped developing new utility runes during the Time of Woe, and as they weren't being made any more the knowledge wasn't passed on, so it was eventually lost. Or worse, all possible utility runes were discovered, so no new utility runic items could ever be made.
The rule of Pride and jealous runes only make sense in the context of the table top game to prevent multiple examples of strong rune combinations. I am of the mind that outside the context of the miniature games mechanics that those should be ignored.
 
The rule of Pride and jealous runes only make sense in the context of the table top game to prevent multiple examples of strong rune combinations. I am of the mind that outside the context of the miniature games mechanics that those should be ignored.

My view on this is that we have a craft that is described as dying out and a set of self-imposed limitations that mean that it's logical that the craft is dying out.

From a setting perspective that seems like a pretty good match.
 
My view on this is that we have a craft that is described as dying out and a set of self-imposed limitations that mean that it's logical that the craft is dying out.

From a setting perspective that seems like a pretty good match.

Eh... the whole Karaz Ankor was dying out (except for the Engineer's Guild, which was becoming more and more radical).

Considering Runesmiths are artisans that take a lot of time to train and are very hard to replace in a society that's suffering from a lot of attrition the rules don't need to be all that restrictive to allow for a loss of knowledge.
 
My view on this is that we have a craft that is described as dying out and a set of self-imposed limitations that mean that it's logical that the craft is dying out.

From a setting perspective that seems like a pretty good match.
To my mind runes being lost due to masters dying without passing them on or prioritizing warfare adjacent runes at the expense of utility works fine. I see no need to acomidate phenomena that was worked in for the sake of out of universe reasons.
 
Eh... the whole Karaz Ankor was dying out (except for the Engineer's Guild, which was becoming more and more radical).

Considering Runesmiths are artisans that take a lot of time to train and are very hard to replace in a society that's suffering from a lot of attrition the rules don't need to be all that restrictive to allow for a loss of knowledge.

But I don't think we hear about metalsmithing techniques for weapons, or stoneworking techniques fortifications being lost; just runecraft. There seems to be something special about them. And we have described rules that place strong limitations on the craft which explains what is special.

We may think it's stupid for them to do that, but it's not logically or internally inconsistent for those rules to exist.

To my mind runes being lost due to masters dying without passing them on or prioritizing warfare adjacent runes at the expense of utility works fine. I see no need to acomidate phenomena that was worked in for the sake of out of universe reasons.

The entire setting was created for out of universe reasons to provide an appropriate context for battles that could be represented on the table top between and within any faction. Pretty much every phenomena in the setting is worked in for that purpose. We might as well say it doesn't make sense for a human army to have wizards, they're only there for game balance so they can compete/have something to do in the magic phase against higher magic armies if we're going down that route.
 
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The entire setting was created for out of universe reasons to provide an appropriate context for battles that could be represented on the table top between and within any faction. Pretty much every phenomena in the setting is worked in for that purpose. We might as well say it doesn't make sense for a human army to have wizards, they're only there for game balance so they can compete/have something to do in the magic phase against higher magic armies if we're going down that route.
Wizards are well contextualized in lore outside the tabletop, the Rule of pride and jealousy are not to me, therefore I don't think them needed for narrative. I pick and choose what I like, you will not correct me into agreement.
 
But I don't think we hear about metalsmithing techniques for weapons, or stoneworking techniques fortifications being lost; just runecraft. There seems to be something special about them. And we have described rules that place strong limitations on the craft which explains what is special.

We may think it's stupid for them to do that, but it's not logically or internally inconsistent for those rules to exist.

On the flip side other techniques can be a lot easier to learn and reverse engineer - a hypothetical master smith of Kragg's talent beginning with apprentice level knowledge could very well reinvent the whole craft in 1600 years.

Beyond that there could be knowledge lost that probably isn't talked about all that often - for example digging huge Underway tunnels over hundreds of miles can very well be lost without much comment since the Karaz Ankor would be in no position to dig them again and couldn't defend them even if they were magically dug for them.
 
I think the way to articulate my issue with the rule of pride is that it feels like the game is intruding on the fiction. It's like if every gor in the Empire all look like the models, or that every ork in a mob being armed uniformly with spears and shields. For modeling miniatures and graphics they are a necessary abstraction, but intrusive if depicted in the fiction, because uniformity is a word I would never use to characterize mutation and orks. I put the rule of pride on the same boat.
 
This is important to remember:

We are only handing him a tool. He did not, and could not ask us to do anything but give a read we already consider the most likely truth.

I do not know if what he is doing is right, and if we should aid him, but he is not asking for the sun and the moon.
 
Reading some more of the Middenheim source/adventure book for WHFRP 2E, I was looking for what else we might want to do if we're visiting to talk to the dwarves there.

The Guild of Wizards and Alchemists was apparently founded shortly after the Colleges by Magisters assigned to the north, and has been chartered by all eight of them and has representatives who can tutor members in the use of all eight Winds. It might be interesting to drop by and see what the local representative of the Grey Order has to say about the dwarves and how to approach them. It also might be interesting to see how a branch college works.

The Collegium Theological started out as the Cult of Ulric's seminaries about seven hundred years ago, but has since branched out to study just about every subject and is one of the foremost centres of learning in the Old World. It also apparently contains one of the finest libraries in the Old World. The plot hook, which we may be able to help with if we think they could help with the project, is that they've apparently been denied the Imperial Charter required to be considered a university. There's apparently potentially some Cult and other politics involved, as the Sigmarite sponsored institutions in Nuln and Altdorf are Chartered Universities. I would have expect that we would have the contacts to wrangle a Charter if we thought it was worth it, and it might help both with any mundane scholarship required and potentially also with the College's backers in the Cult if Ulric. It's apparently also a matter of civic pride with the Middenheimers, so this might help repay the Graf if he helps us with the dwarves. Interestingly, the Collegium also has a restriction section of its library where trusted academics study otherwise forbidden lore under the authority of the Cult of Ulric. Presumably this is for teaching their equivalent of witch hunters.

The Comission for Elven, Dwarven, and Halfling Interests, if it already exists, might be very interesting to work with it there's a reason to. The local dwarves have their own community and institutions such as their Engineers guild, and it's mentioned that there are issues between them and the elves, but it would still be very interesting to see if we can get any inspiration of how an institution that contains and represents both dwarves and elves can actually work.

As an interesting side note, in the adventure in the book it's possible for all the PCs, whether they're priests or not (including wizards), to gain a non-standard divine mark after being inside a flare up of the white Eternal Flame of Ulric after dealing with chaotic subversion in his Cult. Called the Mark of Unity, it grants bonuses to dealing with priests and followers of Sigmar and Ulric and extra bonuses when encouraging them to work together. Pissing off either god can make you lose the mark / painfully.
 
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