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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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And yes, the Rule of Pride could mean that there are Runesmiths out there who aren't allowed to actually runecraft, only to try to bang their heads against a brick wall either trying to recover a lost rune, which itself wouldn't be considered ready for use until after decades of testing, or try to persuade an elder runesmith to share a rune they're hoarding with them, which might then allow them to make a new item as long as someone else hasn't got there first, as they're not allowed to duplicate items that have been made before.

With a literal interpretation you could even have an unlucky runesmith that goes through their entire career whose never allowed to runecraft, as all the combinations they know have already been used by someone else.

The Rule of Pride in combination with rune hoarding is basically an accelerated suicide pact for the Runesmiths guild. Even without the hoarding it would be long term suicide, but with it…
 
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[X] [THOREK] Both

Given that Thorek's version of the guild is far more likely to be cooperative and (comparatively) open, this is worth spending some of our political capital on, even if it might lead to some short-term turmoil within the guild. I'd be worried about Kragg's opinion on us interfering with Guild politics, but he doesn't seem to concerned with them.

[X] [ARM] Johann
This seems perfect for Johann.
 
I'm not actually sure how the Rule of Pride works in the DL setting, because the rule only exists to handwave away why you can't use the same magic item multiple times in the same army list—you can't design the same runeweapon and then spam it across all your hero and lord units.

I suspect the actual interpretation of the rule of pride is more... feasible, because otherwise that severely limits what a runesmith can actually make.

Like, the high king can't have a rune lantern to light up his study, because 2000 years ago a runesmith made one for a mining clan to light up one of their tunnels just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Actually, the duplication part of the Rule of Pride is a very strong incentive for rune hoarding. If you teach someone else a rune they either can't use it because you or someone else has already made items with the combinations of it and other runes, or if they can use it they'll be the one to fill that spot in the combinatorial space, which means that it's an item that you'll never be able to make when you want to give someone a runic item*. Cynically, you'd only want to teach runes at most as fast as you can develop new ones within the same category (because of the Rule of Form). As novel rune development is very hard, and probably gets harder as more and more runes are found and the low hanging fruit picked, you can see how a pathological tradition would develop.

* You can easily see a race to the bottom developing, prisoners dilemma style, as if two different ruensmiths each develop a new rune and exhaust the extra combinatorial space then they've a reason to share the potential item spots in the space, but they've also an incentive to try to reverse engineer the other's rune, and then they get to take all the spots them self, leaving the other with none of them.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I'm not actually sure how the Rule of Pride works in the DL setting, because the rule only exists to handwave away why you can't use the same magic item multiple times in the same army list—you can't design the same runeweapon and then spam it across all your hero and lord units.

I suspect the actual interpretation of the rule of pride is more... feasible, because otherwise that severely limits what a runesmith can actually make.

Like, the high king can't have a rune lantern to light up his study, because 2000 years ago a runesmith made one for a mining clan to light up one of their tunnels just doesn't make sense to me.
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In Rhunrikki Strollar, someone came up with the theory that the rule of pride is Thungni enshrining innovation in the cult's laws.

But then the literal interpretation of it paralyzes the cult.
 
To all the "Johann" voters. You remember that he is blind and that the arm is probably a ranged weapon, right?

@Boney How far can Johann "see" with his ferromagnetic Magesense? Would he even be capable of, like, firing accurately at a living target at the kind of range that bows or guns usually get used?
 
I think a better way to handle it to not be strict on wording and just use the spirit of it. The Runesmiths are artists not an industrial organisation doing mass production. They can pump out a bunch of low level runes without feeling like they're breaking the Rule of Pride (runes of light for example), but mass producing Masterpieces would probably feel like blasphemy to them.

Where the line is drawn when it comes to the Rule of Pride probably differs based on interpretation, but I think even the most cantankerous of Runesmiths sees the value in reusing useful rune combinations if it means saving Dwarf lives.
 
Rafin said:
To all the "Johann" voters. You remember that he is blind and that the arm is probably a ranged weapon, right?

@Boney How far can Johann "see" with his ferromagnetic Magesense? Would he even be capable of, like, firing accurately at a living target at the kind of range that bows or guns usually get used?
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Johann wields a handgun, and has a staff that can launch a flying ball of steel. I don't think he's got problems with aiming.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I suspect the actual interpretation of the rule of pride is more... feasible, because otherwise that severely limits what a runesmith can actually make.

Like, the high king can't have a rune lantern to light up his study, because 2000 years ago a runesmith made one for a mining clan to light up one of their tunnels just doesn't make sense to me.
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That's a lot less of a problem if there's a very large number of compatible runes known, as the number of combinations can get very large very quickly. If there are a thousand other runes that would work with the Rune of Light on a lantern, you can make half a million runic lanterns before you exhaust them.

Alternatively, this could also be a reason the dwarves lost the ability to make the utility runes. Ever single known combination was made, and the dwarves stopped developing new utility runes during the Time of Woe, and as they weren't being made any more the knowledge wasn't passed on, so it was eventually lost. Or worse, all possible utility runes were discovered, so no new utility runic items could ever be made.
 
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Rafin said:
To all the "Johann" voters. You remember that he is blind and that the arm is probably a ranged weapon, right?
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If we're assuming Shem's Burning Gaze, it'd still be useful even if Johann can only use it as a shotgun-laser.

Besides, it's got the same range on tabletop as Searing Doom, which he already knows and presumably believes he can make use of.
 
Codex said:
I think a better way to handle it to not be strict on wording and just use the spirit of it. The Runesmiths are artists not an industrial organisation doing mass production. They can pump out a bunch of low level runes without feeling like they're breaking the Rule of Pride (runes of light for example), but mass producing Masterpieces would probably feel like blasphemy to them.

Where the line is drawn when it comes to the Rule of Pride probably differs based on interpretation, but I think even the most cantankerous of Runesmiths sees the value in reusing useful rune combinations if it means saving Dwarf lives.
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It may have once have been about the spirit of the Rule, but that age is past, as the dwarfs lose more and more of their heritage they cling all the more tenaciously to the scraps they have left... crushing them to dust and ash.
 
Codex said:
I think a better way to handle it to not be strict on wording and just use the spirit of it. The Runesmiths are artists not an industrial organisation doing mass production. They can pump out a bunch of low level runes without feeling like they're breaking the Rule of Pride (runes of light for example), but mass producing Masterpieces would probably feel like blasphemy to them.
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It depends what the spirit is. If it's that Runesmiths should always be innovating* and never simply reproducing/'plagirising' runic combinations that another runesmith has done before them, then the Rule of Pride is doing its job perfectly.

* and dwarven innovation takes a long time and lots of quality assurance, so a dwarven innovator doesn't have much time spare for other distractions.

It's not what, on pragmatic grounds, we might think produces the greatest utility for the dwarves, but if you look at runesmithing as a sacramental art, as an end in itself rather than as a means to another end, it makes complete sense. Otherwise runesmiths would 'waste' their time on mere reproduction rather than the transcendent act of creative discovery.

It's like any other religious prohibitions on what kind of art is appropriate and which is sacrilegious, it doesn't have to make sense outside its own terms.
 
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I am definitely not saying that it would be useless to Johann. Just that it would very likely be more useful to someone with good eyesight and no ranged attack spells of their own.
 
A friendly take on Ghumzul:
- First they see the War of the Beard is stupid and evil, so they stay Neutral. They formally rebel, but don't actually kill Dawi or anything.
- As neutrals, they don't militarily support the main Dawi polity they have quit. Fair enough.
- Centuries later, they fall to an Orc invasion (IIRC). The people flee to the Karaz Ankor, but the leaders go live in hovels with the humans because for them, returning to the Karaz Ankor probably means execution for the rebellion of their ancestors that they had nothing to do with.
- The common refugees are poor and live among Dawi who remember and hate their ancestors. This is a massive obstacle to getting richer or more integrated !
- The richer Dawi who live among humans have a brighter future, valued for their crafts. They get rich again. They don't financially support those who are a continent away + have been separate for centuries and probably don't like them + already being supported by others.

It all makes sense !

[Sorry if someone else has already posted this, I will catch up with the thread later]
Edit : @Alratan, I like your take.
 
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Rafin said:
I am definitely not saying that it would be useless to Johann. Just that it would very likely be more useful to someone with good eyesight and no ranged attack spells of their own.
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And would that someone else be of any use to Mathilde? We did pay 1000 Gold for the thing, I would rather not see it ride off in to the sunset on the shoulder of a random knight if we can help it.
 
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