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WS 7 feels too high.

Like, tabletop-wise the only Empire character that had that was Helborg.

She's good, but I don't think she's as good as the greatest swordsman in the Empire. Not yet, at least.


Also, the sword is Branulhune.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but WS6 is the highest that regular (aka non Chaos) humans ever get.
The Empire has one- Kurt Helborg, Reiksmarshal of the Empire.
 
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Ws 7 is way too high. That's elven princes and chaos exalted heroes level. Even 6 which is knightly orders grandmasters is probably too high.
She should be a lvl 2 wizard at the very least as she hss 2 battlemagic spells.
Dwarf crafted and quick to fire are redundant.
The robes should be 2+ IIRC. Or 3+.
Mathilde is actually very very good with a sword. 7 might be a bit too high, but 6 is probably about right. I'll update it.
She does, but I'm sort of skipping Rite of Way. I've partially rolled it into her Duskrider rule, and sort of skipped the ability to move over terrain. Admittedly this is mostly because I didn't want to have to come up with a decent casting value for it.
They aren't actually! Dwarf-crafted removes the -1 from Stand and Shoot, while Quick to Fire removes a -1 from moving and shooting, as well as allowing you to always make a Stand and Shoot reaction.
They've been stated to be equal to full plate armour IIRC, which is a 4+.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but WS6 is the highest that regular (aka non Chaos) humans ever get. Karl Franz is probably one of the best warriors in the Empire and his WS is 6, and Thorgrimm Grudgebearer the High King has WS7. I also think the BS is too high.

Mathilde hasn't quite mastered Branulhune. If she does, then I would give her +1 WS when she's wielding the weapon to represent the teleporting sword causing confusion and unpredictable attacks, but otherwise I would put her at 6.
Hmm. You're thinking BS 5 then? I chose to represent the teleportation part of Branulhune with the unable to parry rule. At least for now. Maybe if she masters it give a rule that reduces enemy WS?

Also human WS does get above 6. Kurt Helborg has a 7. As you see above though, I've reduced it.
Also, the sword is Branulhune.
I've fixed that. I noticed when I was typing up this reply.
 
Mathilde is actually very very good with a sword. 7 might be a bit too high, but 6 is probably about right. I'll update it.
She does, but I'm sort of skipping Rite of Way. I've partially rolled it into her Duskrider rule, and sort of skipped the ability to move over terrain. Admittedly this is mostly because I didn't want to have to come up with a decent casting value for it.
They aren't actually! Dwarf-crafted removes the -1 from Stand and Shoot, while Quick to Fire removes a -1 from moving and shooting, as well as allowing you to always make a Stand and Shoot reaction.
They've been stated to be equal to full plate armour IIRC, which is a 4+.


Hmm. You're thinking BS 5 then? I chose to represent the teleportation part of Branulhune with the unable to parry rule. At least for now. Maybe if she masters it give a rule that reduces enemy WS?

Also human WS does get above 6. Kurt Helborg has a 7. As you see above though, I've reduced it.

I've fixed that. I noticed when I was typing up this reply.
I think Mathilde is closer to BS4 actually, She's learnt how to shoot guns in about 2 actions from Jungfreud's training and then never practiced it with an action ever again. She's good, but she focuses all her martial abilities on Sword fighting and uses guns for emergencies.

I didn't know Kurt was WS7, but yeah I think it'll be a while before Mathilde can consider herself the "Greatest Empire Swords(wo)man".
 
Mathilde is actually very very good with a sword. 7 might be a bit too high, but 6 is probably about right.
Mathilde is a master swordswoman, not a grandmaster swordswoman. Grand masters are WS6, as per here:
Warhammer: The Empire, page 43

EDIT: Mathilde's good at swords, but knight grand masters have fought more than her, relied much more heavily on their martial skills in those fights, and have been training and fighting for many more years than Mathilde, at a much greater frequency. (While Mathilde was learning new spells and experimenting with snake juice, they were studying the blade.) It's to be expected that they're better than her at sword-fighting.
 
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Regeneration is OK for the seed; a straightforward way to implement it.

She should be a level 2 wizard now, as she knows 2 BM spells
WS 7, BS 6 is elf prince levels, way over Mathilde's skill level. WS6 and BS4 (Elf archer level) are more realistic, and WS6 is probably pushing it. I'd actually be happier with WS to 5 and a special rule for her cheating melee style. (Reroll to hit, maybe?). BS 4 is iirc as good as a unit champion of professional handgunners, which is then boosted by superior quality dwarf equipment
+2 to cast on all Shadow magic is too much. Dark elf sorceresses have an innate +1 to cast, and a magic item that gives a +1 to cast costs 50 pts (iirc). The staff of Mistery is good, but not THAT good. Maybe have her roll an extra dice when casting, and choose the safest result? It doesn't so much increase her power, as it makes Misty Battle Magic safe to cast.

Also: You have the name of the sword wrong: Branalhune is the sword, Branarhune is the fighting style
 
I also think it's important to remind people that this is all abstractions here, and fairly difficult to pin down as well. a 1-10 scale where your average soldier is WS3 and your God Warriors are WS10 is never going to be fully accurate, especially when the range is so...variable.

Malekith the 7000 year old Dark Elf Warrior, son of Aenarion is WS8. Ungrim Ironfist and Tyrion, not even a quarter of his age, are WS9.
 
+2 to cast on all Shadow magic is too much. Dark elf sorceresses have an innate +1 to cast, and a magic item that gives a +1 to cast costs 50 pts (iirc). The staff of Mistery is good, but not THAT good. Maybe have her roll an extra dice when casting, and choose the safest result? It doesn't so much increase her power, as it makes Misty Battle Magic safe to cast.
Honestly, it'd probably be good to change it from "all Ulgu spells" to just MMM. It'd be more accurate at least.
 
Honestly, it'd probably be good to change it from "all Ulgu spells" to just MMM. It'd be more accurate at least.
Rite of Way could be a unique spell that Mathilde knows, which also benefits from the Staff. But that depends on if you want to implement it or not.

It would be an remains in play enhancement spell that makes a unit ignore difficult terrain, which can be boosted to affect multiple units.
The cheating style has not yet been perfected.
Yet being the operative word. But we're also half way there now. So yea, WS 5, with the possibility to add reroll to hit rolls in the future.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but WS6 is the highest that regular (aka non Chaos) humans ever get. Karl Franz is probably one of the best warriors in the Empire and his WS is 6, and Thorgrimm Grudgebearer the High King has WS7. I also think the BS is too high.
Well, AFAIK ws 7 in humans is rare but not impossible.

The list goes:
Empire:
Kurt Helborg
Valten (Storm of Chaos/End Times)
Karl Franz Ascendant (End Times)
Bretonnia:
King Luen Leoncur
Bret Paladins/Lords with Virtue of the Ideal. (Note, Lords are in fact WS 8)
Others
Border prince/Mercenary commander Lietpold the Black (Tamurkhan Throne of CHaos)
 
I thought I'd have a crack at making an updated WHFB statline for Mathilde. This doesn't quite follow all the same rules as Boney's original one, mostly notably with the Seed of Rebirth. That's deliberate. I'm curious to see what people think

Mathilde's stats should be WS 5 BS 4 wizard level 2 with a special rule on not miscasting and a special spell. WS 6 should be after she's finished the sword style.

We really shouldn't underestimate the differences betweem 4 and 5 and 5 and 6. Every level is a significant improvement. Considering Mathilde has effectively S10 she'd be one of the greatest warriors in the old world. W6 S10 is someone who knows the sword as well as a Swordmaster of Hoeth and hits as hard as a dragon.

Well, AFAIK ws 7 in humans is rare but not impossible.

WS 7 is the absolute best reserved for weakly superhuman paladins, divinely buffed figures like Valten and the absolute beastliest warriors in the Old World.

Mathilde does her swording after she finishes buffing her magic; she's not going to be the best in a continent when she's putting maybe 40% of her efforts there.


Malekith the 7000 year old Dark Elf Warrior, son of Aenarion is WS8. Ungrim Ironfist and Tyrion, not even a quarter of his age, are WS9.

Malekith is ruling an empire and practicing his magic. Tyrion and Ungrim are much more focused on their WS - Tyrion especially.

WS 8 is the product of a lot of talent, dedication and experience. WS 8 is Captain America does lots of swording for a hundred years level.

WS9 is crazy levels of dedication, a metric ton of experience and boatloads of talent. WS 9 is a level that someone extraordinarily talented reaches over centuries of obsessive training. Maybe. If they're really lucky.
 
Mathilde's stats should be WS 5 BS 4 wizard level 2 with a special rule on not miscasting and a special spell. WS 6 should be after she's finished the sword style.

WS 7 is the absolute best reserved for weakly superhuman paladins, divinely buffed figures like Valten and the absolute beastliest warriors in the Old World.
Agreed. However I feel the need to clarify an assumption @Codex had that it was impossible
 
Agreed. However I feel the need to clarify an assumption @Codex had that it was impossible
I put regular human as a qualifier. Grail Knights are, technically, Divine Touched. So are Valten and Karl Franz Ascendant. Kurt is the only one in your list who could be refered to as regular, since as far as I know he hasn't been touched by magic, practiced the sword for hundreds of years, or is the avatar of a God/blessed by a god.

I have no idea who Luitpold that is being mentioned here is. I'm generally wary about taking stuff from Tamurkhan at face value.
 
Lietpold the Black.

Veteran Dog of War general that is basically Starscream in human form.

WS7 does feel somewhat inflated for him.
Since you're here and you're more familiar with WH material than I am, can you tell me what's up with Tamurkhan the book? I'm trying to research the details behind its creation, but there is no page that gives me any reasonable information that isn't just the contents of the book. I tried looking up the author, and all I'm getting is his incredibly long line of Warhammer 40k works. Tamurkhan also seems entirely restricted to just this book? How canon is its contents? I'm a bit confused and there's no wikipedia page on the book itself, only on what it contains.
 
Since you're here and you're more familiar with WH material than I am, can you tell me what's up with Tamurkhan the book? I'm trying to research the details behind its creation, but there is no page that gives me any reasonable information that isn't just the contents of the book. I tried looking up the author, and all I'm getting is his incredibly long line of Warhammer 40k works. Tamurkhan also seems entirely restricted to just this book? How canon is its contents? I'm a bit confused and there's no wikipedia page on the book itself, only on what it contains.
I'm really not an expert on this stuff, but I can tell you it's a Forgeworld book* that was planned to be the first in a set of 4 (or longer) before GW canned the whole thing and started up the End Times.

Certainly canon, though. Forgeworld also made the Monstrous Arcanum, a book entirely dedicated towards giant monsters.

It's the same source that Elspeth is from, though basically nothing in the book has ever reappeared in canon to my knowledge.

*Forgeworld is a more specialized sub-company of GW that make (more limited?) very expensive models. I think they were the ones running the Horus Heresy in 40k?
 
I put regular human as a qualifier. Grail Knights are, technically, Divine Touched. So are Valten and Karl Franz Ascendant. Kurt is the only one in your list who could be refered to as regular, since as far as I know he hasn't been touched by magic, practiced the sword for hundreds of years, or is the avatar of a God/blessed by a god.

I have no idea who Luitpold that is being mentioned here is. I'm generally wary about taking stuff from Tamurkhan at face value.
Well, I am not sure whether or not bretonnian virtues are magical in nature. If they are not, it means that regular humans can get to ws 8 as one can have a bretonnian lord with that vurtie who is only a knight of the realm.
As for Lietpold, the reason I mentioned he is from Tamurkhan is becuase of the books somewhat questionable canonicity. That said, while he is stated to have had a lot of magic cast on him, those are spells of healing, protection and maintainance of youth and health, so his skill with the blade appears to be perfectly mundane
 
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What's questionable about it?

It's an official book from a subsidiary of GW.


I certainly hope it's canon, it's the only content Chaos Dwarfs have gotten in the last 25 years.
If we're talking canon like I'm considering, it's that I don't even know where to put Tamurkhan in this list:
Canonicity (for Quest purposes)
Tier 1: The Quest itself is primary canon.
Tier 2: WoQM applies unless it violates Quest canon (which I assume it has or will at some point).
Tier 3: Army Books (6th+), WHFRPG 2e - reasonably safe to assume that the fluff in these is canon unless the Quest or WoQM says otherwise. Game mechanics should not be taken as canon.
Tier 4: Black Library, White Dwarf articles - canonish, but the QM may not be familiar with them and the details are likely to end up varying if they are used.
Tier 5: Licensed video games, Warhammer Armies Project, WHFRPG 3e & 4e - mostly only used for things that aren't otherwise covered in higher tiers, and by default are not canon.
Tier 6: Army Books (pre-6th), WHFRPG (1e) - the Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone. May be looted for ideas from time to time but is usually completely incompatible.
It's not an Army Book or a 2E RPG book. Elspeth is canon to the quest but that doesn't mean everything in the book is canon to it. It's like Boney picking out Elementalism and Gazul up from earlier editions, I don't know whether Boney read it and is willing to incorporate its contents.

In terms of Canon as in GW Canon? You said it's not referenced in any other material ever, then its canon status is up in the air. I call that stuff dubious because if the only time it ever comes up is in the book itself, then sure it's canon but they're not following up on it at all. Feels pointless.
 
It's not an Army Book or a 2E RPG book. Elspeth is canon to the quest but that doesn't mean everything in the book is canon to it. It's like Boney picking out Elementalism and Gazul up from earlier editions, I don't know whether Boney read it and is willing to incorporate its contents.
Probably tier 3. It's from 8th edition.
 
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Probably tier 3. It's from 8th edition.
End Times had 5 Volumes, and they included a ton of characters, some of which they forgot to include their endings in the books so they took to Twitter to answer questions about their deeds and deaths (Skarsnik's death, Settra killing Kholek), and they never mentioned anything about Tamurkhan and its contents? Sounds like the GW staff didn't read the book, or didn't consider it worth their attention enough to give out a line about the characters that were involved in it.

EDIT: Your edit made my comment weird.
 
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End Times had 5 Volumes, and they included a ton of characters, some of which they forgot to include their endings in the books so they took to Twitter to answer questions about their deeds and deaths (Skarsnik's death, Settra killing Kholek), and they never mentioned anything about Tamurkhan and its contents? Sounds like the GW staff didn't read the book, or didn't consider it worth their attention enough to give out a line about the characters that were involved in it.

EDIT: Your edit made my comment weird.
I have no idea on the ultimate source, but the 1d4chan list of character deaths in the End Times has entries for Sayl the Faithless, Drazhoath the Ashen, and Elspeth.

YMMV, of course, because, you know... 1d4chan. They don't exactly give sources.

(Am I good to link the page here? I know I can't on SB)
 
I have no idea on the ultimate source, but the 1d4chan list of character deaths in the End Times has entries for Sayl the Faithless, Drazhoath the Ashen, and Elspeth.

YMMV, of course, because, you know... 1d4chan. They don't exactly give sources.

(Am I good to link the page here? I know I can't on SB)
I can't even access 1D4chan anymore. Don't even know why. But unsourced claims are...questionable at best, especially with those guys.

Anyways, we're starting to get offtopic. Unless Boney wants to weigh in on the discussion, I think we should table it.
 
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