Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Boney]

I have to wonder if "Lovely Laurelorn" is a reference to Torroar's own arc with that same name, or if it's a case of two people coming up with the same idea independently. Or if Lovely Laurelorn is a thing used in official Warhammer material.

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It's a reference.

Would Elves be able to sense if someone has been tainted by Chaos/influenced by Chaos? Seeing as how they are more in tune with magic and all that?

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There's a very wide and varied range of things that could be considered taint or influence. Some might be detectable in various ways, others not at all.

 

[kingreaper]

In WEB-MAT would the following be a legal option for Egrimm?

[ ] EGRIMM: Work with him to use some of his light-projecting spells to cast a Burning Shadow - using Windherding expertise to avoid Dhar production and see what results are possible.

With the intent that we can observe the effects - whether it can be used to achieve special effects as was seen in the destruction of the Singing King - and so we can be ready to do so in combat situations if it comes up in future.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

No. The decision for them to make is a fundamental one about whether this is the proper way forward for runesmithing. Either they'd already be willing so taking payment would be dishonorable, or they wouldn't and no amount of bribery would shift them.

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That's useful to know, thanks.

I was considering a situation where the Runesmiths were ok with researching Waystones but didn't consider them overly important and needed to be bribed to get at it now rather than 20 years later.

Given that we're nearly guaranteed to never take this action again, given that the Waystone HQ needs to support not just Mathilde but everyone who she recruits, given that we are, indeed, in bat Elf country, I don't view 300gc as the maximum. I see it as the barebones minimum to get the locals to respect us. I'm going to advocate we spend 1000gc, to at least try to match the 2000gc we're going to casually drop on the research spaces. I don't think anyone here's going to blink an eye on spending the maximum amount on furnishing our research spaces. But if you haven't noticed, we're in Laurelorn, and we've been left a physical Major House to house our Waystone HQ and negotiate with the other Major Houses with. Just to keep up appearances and help with the Diplomatic side of the project, we need to view the furnishings as potentially just as important as the research spaces.

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1000 is probably unnecessarily swanky. We want to make it posh by elf standard but not create utterly unrealistic expectations because Mathilde doesn't actually have a minor kingdom level funding unless we use the Vlag favour.

[1]I'd say "can maybe bring runesmiths on board" is a card, but to be fair, a much smaller one than "Waystone project has runesmiths on board"
[2] For me, the project was started on the promise of facilitating communication and ending hostilities between different magic traditions, and our rep means that people have enough faith in us that showing success in that diplomatic field can wait a turn.

I just don't think we particularly need cards this turn (or is that motivated cognition on my part?), but the explanations given will make me feel better if the winning plan has a lot of recruitment for the Waystone Project in it. So thank you for that.

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I don't think there's a lot of urgency in the sense of 'we must do this ASAP'; Mathilde's rank and reputation and the fact that she's working with elves and dwarfs means her actual buffer for starting the research is probably measured in years or even decades; however since there's a lot of groups we want to bring in - or at least see which of them are interested in being in - we do want to get the show on the road reasonably fast because we'll be years into the recruiting stage regardless.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Personally, I think that rather than trying to full-court press recruitment this turn, it would make sense to do one important recruitment at a time so we can Gamble it. Like, runesmiths this turn, next turn Jades and Ambers, that sort of thing.

I get your point, but that action is specifically for the College Libraries, so this isn't something that extends without limit. I definitely don't want to take it until we have Jades on board. Lights and Ambers would be nice but not necessary.

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I think your assuming 'one action, one join' here. (or at least try gain if fail)

I'm assuming a few of those colleges will go 'ok, but do this muti AP/Turn thing, and then we will join' so 'full college' could take awhile, hell, Jades alone could take awhile as they seem to have the most to give up.'

if your argument was 'let's do the gold college next turn' then I might agree for a wait, as we only have limited access to them right now. but that's not the colleges you want to wait on.

I'll prefer to spend ap on keeping as many cards in hand, than in top deck, when we are playing a game where we lose if the other side calls before we think they will and we don't have something to prove we aren't hot air.

 

[Boney]

In WEB-MAT would the following be a legal option for Egrimm?

[ ] EGRIMM: Work with him to use some of his light-projecting spells to cast a Burning Shadow - using Windherding expertise to avoid Dhar production and see what results are possible.

With the intent that we can observe the effects - whether it can be used to achieve special effects as was seen in the destruction of the Singing King - and so we can be ready to do so in combat situations if it comes up in future.

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No. Singing King was a double crit.

 

[Shane_357]

1000 is probably unnecessarily swanky. We want to make it posh by elf standard but not create utterly unrealistic expectations because Mathilde doesn't actually have a minor kingdom level funding unless we use the Vlag favour.

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Don't think of it as swanky, think of it as expansive. We don't want Runesmiths and wizards to be arguing over precedence for the fucking bathroom facilities, that will not end well.

 

[Derpmind]

[] Plan Get Comfy, WEB-AV (Preliminary)
-[] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 200gc for comfortable, 300gc+ for nice (no cap on how much can be spent, because Elves)) 1000gc
-[] Furnish the research spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 500gc for College-grade, 2000gc for Laurelorn-grade) 2000gc
-[] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
-[] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Forestborn' Faniour inhabitants of the woods surrounding Tor Lithanel
-[] MAX: Study an artefact: Aethyric Vitae
-[][OVERWORK] JOHANN: Study an artefact: Aethyric Vitae
-[][WEB-MAT] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Aethyric Vitae
-[][COIN] The Night Prowler
-[][SERENITY] Windsoak Mushrooms Book 1/2

Just throwing this out there. I really like the idea of using the Night Prowler side of the coin to boost our exploration/immersion in Tor Lithanel's culture. But that also means we don't have the Gamber to help us with the very-important things like recruiting Runesmiths or investigating the Waystones. So. While we're busy taking the lay of the land, I'd like to propose a crazy idea we put WEB-MAT to its paces and see what we can get out of examining AV with them. Rather than just doing another AV action on our checklist, why not see what WEB-MAT can contribute? If nothing else, it'll be a way to get the group to work together; Mathilde's done enough of laying-the-groundwork that we should hopefully be able to direct our little herd of cats towards cooperating together.

 

[picklepikkl]

I think your assuming 'one action, one join' here.

I'm assuming a few of those colleges will go 'ok, but do this muti AP/Turn thing, and then we will join'

if your argument was 'let's as the gold college next turn' then I might agree for a wait, as we only have limited access to them right now. but that's not the colleges you want to wait on.

I'll prefer to spend ap on keeping as many cards in hand, than in top deck, when we are playing a game where we lose if the other side calls before we think they will and we don't have something to prove we aren't hot air.

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Yeah, I do think one action = one join or rejection. If we take a recruitment action and it turns out that that's not the case, I'll swing around to "we should scrape the knowledge we've got for now." But my subjective assessment of how quickly we can include other colleges seems to be much faster than yours.

That said, now I'm divided on whether we should try to recruit the Jades first or the dwarves. Jades would make the College books action come online faster, but dwarves are kind of our unique value-add to this project, so I'm unsure. I don't want to grab both at once because I want to Coin both of them, given how important they are.

I have come around to taking both of these actions, though:
[] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
[] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Forestborn' Faniour inhabitants of the woods surrounding Tor Lithanel
Since I think it's the fastest way to ramp up our Eonir Diplomacy skill and get a sense of what the fuck is going on politically, which is clearly a very high priority.

 

[Trickster314]

Personally, I don't see why we shouldn't spend 500 or even more on accommodations. Other posters have already brought up the immediate benefits to attract other wizards and dwarfs. But it's also likely that the location will be used to host other dignitaries after our project is finished if relations continue to improve. I don't see the Grey colleague having a problem with the vow of poverty either considering that this is effectively a business expense as it's for our other collaborators on the project as well.

I understand that some people don't want to spend too much in case Botrek returns for his debt somehow. However, it's important to consider that it's actually really easy for Mathilde to secure capital in the form of a loan (with favorable rates) from the EIC or just trading it for some favor from the Dwarfs. As Johann found out, they are actually quite willing to express their gratitude in the form of cold hard cash.

 

[kingreaper]

No. Singing King was a double crit.

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I know we wouldn't get the same level of result - was just wondering whether the idea of trying to replicate the idea of channelling something from the light into the shadow would be possible with Windherder.

(i.e. having a Burning Shadow where the shadow cast by Light's Demand still carried the Light's Demand effect, while also carrying the Burning Shadow effect.)

Is the whole concept of using the magical light to achieve extra effects something that we can't currently attempt to reproduce?

 

[Jreengus]

Yeah, I do think one action = one join or rejection. If we take a recruitment action and it turns out that that's not the case, I'll swing around to "we should scrape the knowledge we've got for now." But my subjective assessment of how quickly we can include other colleges seems to be much faster than yours.

That said, now I'm divided on whether we should try to recruit the Jades first or the dwarves. Jades would make the College books action come online faster, but dwarves are kind of our unique value-add to this project, so I'm unsure. I don't want to grab both at once because I want to Coin both of them, given how important they are.

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My two cents on this is that "We have runesmiths on board for this project" does a better job of selling it to the jades than "We have Jades on board" will do to sell it to the runesmiths. In fact I think this holds true to most of the groups we will be trying to recruit which is why I favour runesmiths first.

I understand that some people don't want to spend too much in case Botrek returns for his debt somehow. However, it's important to consider that it's actually really easy for Mathilde to secure capital in the form of a loan (with favorable rates) from the EIC or just trading it for some favor from the Dwarfs. As Johann found out, they are actually quite willing to express their gratitude in the form of cold hard cash.

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I think the issue isn't Botrek might return and more the Loremasters might find Botrek's sixth cousin thrice removed who is a dwarf in good standing living in the Karaz Ankor and announce the debt falls to him. And I'm not sure what the VoP says about falling in debt but it certainly seems to be against the spirit of it as it provides a big incentive to abuse your powers.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

[] Plan Get Comfy, WEB-AV (Preliminary)
-[] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 200gc for comfortable, 300gc+ for nice (no cap on how much can be spent, because Elves)) 1000gc
-[] Furnish the research spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 500gc for College-grade, 2000gc for Laurelorn-grade) 2000gc
-[] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
-[] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Forestborn' Faniour inhabitants of the woods surrounding Tor Lithanel
-[] MAX: Study an artefact: Aethyric Vitae
-[][OVERWORK] JOHANN: Study an artefact: Aethyric Vitae
-[][WEB-MAT] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Aethyric Vitae
-[][COIN] The Night Prowler
-[][SERENITY] Windsoak Mushrooms Book 1/2

Just throwing this out there. I really like the idea of using the Night Prowler side of the coin to boost our exploration/immersion in Tor Lithanel's culture. But that also means we don't have the Gamber to help us with the very-important things like recruiting Runesmiths or investigating the Waystones. So. While we're busy taking the lay of the land, I'd like to propose a crazy idea we put WEB-MAT to its paces and see what we can get out of examining AV with them. Rather than just doing another AV action on our checklist, why not see what WEB-MAT can contribute? If nothing else, it'll be a way to get the group to work together; Mathilde's done enough of laying-the-groundwork that we should hopefully be able to direct our little herd of cats towards cooperating together.

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... I actually don't hate it (don't look at me like that, even if I'm pro AV, that a lot in one turn)

but getting to know that elves is not a terrible idea, but I think the Night Prowler is

1: there is only so much you can learn by looking, we want to talk to them, but being an elve that no's nothing and speaks with a bad accent: the whole thing falls apart at best, they think we are a Dark elf spy at worst

2: if we are trying to Dip the elfs, I want the gambler on that, 17 dip is not mathys old states, but its still not amazing and the elfs are going to be uncomfortable with the noisy human, at lest at the start.

 

[Boney]

I know we wouldn't get the same level of result - was just wondering whether the idea of trying to replicate the idea of channelling something from the light into the shadow would be possible with Windherder.

(i.e. having a Burning Shadow where the shadow cast by Light's Demand still carried the Light's Demand effect, while also carrying the Burning Shadow effect.)

Is the whole concept of using the magical light to achieve extra effects something that we can't currently attempt to reproduce?

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Technically possible, but far from the easiest first foray into windherding.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Yeah, I do think one action = one join or rejection. If we take a recruitment action and it turns out that that's not the case, I'll swing around to "we should scrape the knowledge we've got for now." But my subjective assessment of how quickly we can include other colleges seems to be much faster than yours.

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I cant remember where, but I remember boney, inquest and WOBs basically saying 'they are all secret cults that now work together, but still keep secrets, and if they have the information, then they have been sitting on it for hundreds/thousands(jades potentially) of years and have not said a word to each other so far'

it's fair to say that it's unlikely that they will just join and hand it over. but its also fair to say that they probably can be convinced, everyone has their tipping point, its just about getting the right leverage.

but I think what that leverage is could very drastically, some might be doable in one AP, but be very expensive (in a different time, I could see the golds agreeing to join for the skaven stuff) but others might be more complex and time-consuming.

some could be asses/paranoid about and be both Expensive, complex and time-consuming.

we cant predict what college is going to be fast and what college will be like putting teeth, so I'm not risking a wait on any info that can be used.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Don't think of it as swanky, think of it as expansive. We don't want Runesmiths and wizards to be arguing over precedence for the fucking bathroom facilities, that will not end well.

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My understanding was that the empty building of House Elwyn has been designated as the Waystone Project HQ. I'm not seeing how Mathilde can expand the space.

 

[kingreaper]

Alright, so my position on votes now is that I will only vote for a plan that features one of the following:

1) Teaching one of WEB-MAT to enchant.
2) Recruiting an enchanter into WEB-MAT
or
3) Paying College Favour to hire someone to join us in Windherding an enchantment.

Currently trying to work out a full plan for myself, but my brain is futzed so I'm very indecisive.

I honestly don't care about whether or not we investigate AV - we already have a great use for it.

Hmmm, can we enchant items that are also runecarved? I'm sure it's been asked before but I can't remember the answer.

 

[Angelform]

Having read the discussion I have two plans to propose.

[] Plan Putting Down Roots
-[] WEB-MAT (2 AP + 1 free)
--[ ] JOHANN: Have Johann spend time getting to know Kadoh, who has expressed an interest in meeting the 'fist metal-Mage'.
--[ ] MAX: Write a paper: Windsoak Mushrooms (missing: Chamon, Shyish) part 1
--[ ] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Golden Arm
-[] normal (3 AP + 1 overwork)
--[ ] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 200gc for comfortable, 300gc+ for nice (no cap on how much can be spent, because Elves)) 300gc
--[ ] Furnish the research spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 500gc for College-grade, 2000gc for Laurelorn-grade) 2000gc
--[ ] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
--[ ] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Forestborn' Faniour inhabitants of the woods surrounding Tor Lithanel
-[] free
--[ ] [SERENITY] Write a paper: Windsoak Mushrooms (missing: Chamon, Shyish) part 2
--[ ] EIC: Have a blackpowder factory built in Wurtbad.

The point of this plan is to build bridges with the locals. Learn about the people we will be working with, make some friends and write a book they might have some interest in.
Not sure on the coin.
@BoneyM Does Mathilde think the Night Prowler coin would help with the 'Immerse yourself in the culture of' actions?

[] Plan Full Recruitment
-[] normal (5 AP + 1 overwork)
--[ ] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 200gc for comfortable, 300gc+ for nice (no cap on how much can be spent, because Elves)) 300gc
--[ ] Furnish the research spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 500gc for College-grade, 2000gc for Laurelorn-grade) 2000gc
--[ ] Attempt to bring an Order into the Waystone Project (Jade)
--[ ] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Ice Witches)
--[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Major House Fanpatar)
--[ ] Attempt to bring a Karak's Runesmiths into the Waystone Project (????)
[] free
--[ ] [SERENITY] Write a paper: Windsoak Mushrooms (missing: Chamon, Shyish) part 1
--[ ] EIC: Have a blackpowder factory built in Wurtbad.
--[ ] The Gambler: Recruit Runesmiths

Very simply this is trying to get a whole bunch of people together so we can get to work.

[] Plan Get Comfy, WEB-AV (Preliminary)

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Not a bad plan, but I'm against spending 500-700gc attempting, and inevitably failing, to impress the Elves. They have Wealth = Yes. We aren't going to win points with our bank account.

Also not sure BoneyM will give us anything for doing the same 'Study an artefact: Aethyric Vitae' three times over.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Don't think of it as swanky, think of it as expansive. We don't want Runesmiths and wizards to be arguing over precedence for the fucking bathroom facilities, that will not end well.

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Pretty sure the 'nice' level takes care of that.

The 500 odd level I think is appropriate likely has Dawi beer and Bretonnian wine imported and a lot of other such niceties.

The 1000 level... well building a small fortress with dwarf workers on Mathilde's fief was 1000 GC and 4 Dwarf favour back in the day. That's a bit excessive to spend on furnishings - we want posh but we shouldn't exactly create the expectation of Elector Count levels of money because we can't possibly match them in the long run.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Plan: Keep ticking away on AV while doing other things. draft 2

[ ] MAX: Go through every library of the Colleges you can access for any scrap of information about Waystones.

[ ] JOHANN: Learn a skill: Tar-Eltharin, Colleges

[ ] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Kurgan enchanted weapons

[ ] Attempt to bring a Karak's Runesmiths into the Waystone Project (Azul)

[ ] Furnish the research spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (2000gc for Laurelorn-grade)

[ ] Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantments.

[ ] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them. (Overwork)

[ ] Write a paper: Observations of Karag Dum and its unusual guardian (FADING)

[ ] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.

[ ] The Gambler: Attempt to bring a Karak's Runesmiths into the Waystone Project (Azul)

changing the plan, I just remembered that Johann cant speck elfish for shit yet and Kadoh might or might not know human that well. might want to wait on this one.

fists might be its own language is some media, but I don't think this quest is one of them.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Given clarification from Boney about how certain actions work


[] Plan: Recruitment, Research and Development v2
[ ] Attempt to bring an Order into the Waystone Project (Light Order) 1AP
[ ] Attempt to bring an Order into the Waystone Project (Jade Order) 1AP
[ ] Attempt to bring an Order into the Waystone Project (Gold Order) Free AP
[ ] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 200gc for comfortable, 300gc+ for nice (no cap on how much can be spent, because Elves)) [500 GC] 1AP
[ ] Furnish the research spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (specify how much: 100gc for adequate, 500gc for College-grade, 2000gc for Laurelorn-grade) [2000 GC] 1AP
[ ] Investigate how the Vitae reacts with Divine Magic. 1AP
-[ ] The Gambler: AV
[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Marienburg) Free AP

This recruits three of the eight orders of magic into the fold assuming we're successful giving us fully half of the colleges of magic fully onboard. Gets our workspace and living quarters for researchers fully setup and finally hits one of the potentally most impactful personal research projects we have open.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Marienburg) Free AP

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all other opinions aside, I don't think the EIC is up that far north yet.

 

[kingreaper]

I'd like to throw this into the ring as a WEB-MAT action possibility:

[ ] WEB-MAT: Attempt to recruit someone to WEB-MAT (Bright Magister Hugo Bann)

For those who don't remember (i.e. everyone but picklepikkl) Hugo Bann was the Bright who considered making the Red Tower an interesting challenge because it focused on light rather than heat - meaning that he was involved in the project that led to us gaining Windherder, has worked with dwarves, and generally seems like a competent and powerful magister who is also skilled in both enchantment and staff-turning.

(He does know battle magic, but that's not really relevant as he's not willing to use it)

EDIT: Oh, and he also taught us to enchant Fiendishly Complex spells. He is good at what he does.

 

[Redshirt Army]

[ ] Plan Redshirt v1
[ ] JOHANN: Have Johann spend time getting to know Kadoh, who has expressed an interest in meeting the 'fist metal-Mage'.
[ ] Attempt to bring a Karak's Runesmiths into the Waystone Project (Karak Azul)
-[ ] COIN: The Gambler
[ ] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (300gc+)
[ ] Furnish the research spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (2000gc)
[ ] Explore the wonders of the ancient and beautiful city of Tor Lithanel
[ ] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
[ ] EIC: Have a blackpowder factory built in Wurtbad.
[ ] SERENITY: Observations of Karag Dum and its unusual guardian

So here's what I'm thinking in terms of recruitment order:
Turn 1:
-Get a Runesmith on board - this is the big thing that Mathilde can offer that very few others could match, and seeing both the elves and dwarves on board will bring a lot more buy-in from the other Colleges of Magic.
-Do a ton of scouting of Laurelorn to start getting the political lay of the land.
Turn 2:
- Try to get the Amber Order on board - we know Dragomas likes this project, and with us confirming that a runesmith is on-board he should be willing to make the investment.
- Get the Gold College officially on board - two of their members are already in the project, so this should be a relatively soft sell.
Turn 3:
-With the Ambers as an institution on board, recruit an Amber magister for WEBMAT.
-With the Grey, Gold, and Amber Orders on board, a Runesmith, and the implicit backing of the Supreme Patriarch, try to get the Jade Order to buy-in.
Turn 4:
-Recruit a Jade Magister for WEBMAT.
-Have Max collate college info.
-With the main relevant Colleges of Magic and Runesmiths recruited, and quite a bit of time to sort out Laurelorn politics, finally start approaching Major Houses for buy-in.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Once again pointing out that even tho it's my idea, Johann can't speak elfish yet.
Might want to wait on that action.

 

[Shane_357]

@BoneyM can we get a better picture of what spending 300+ gold on living quarters looks like? There are like for or five different assumptions flying around right now and people are building plans around them.