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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I'm honestly surprised that the dwarfs are alive, never mind that they're culture has gone in the the complete opposite direction of every other dwarf group and they're somehow still uncorrupted. How? How did they reach those cultural answers?
 
flotter said:
I'm honestly surprised that the dwarfs are alive, never mind that they're culture has gone in the the complete opposite direction of every other dwarf group and they're somehow still uncorrupted. How? How did they reach those cultural answers?
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Spite. They literally decided not just to forgo Slaanesh's domains, but to embrace them whilst simultaneously cock-blocking Slaanesh from benefiting from that embracing.
 
flotter said:
I'm honestly surprised that the dwarfs are alive, never mind that they're culture has gone in the the complete opposite direction of every other dwarf group and they're somehow still uncorrupted. How? How did they reach those cultural answers?
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Honestly I'd say "still uncorrupted" is a bit far to go on the evidence we've got. There's every chance that Slaanesh considered the job partially complete, and was getting a better harvest of Slaaneshi Slayers with each passing year. It's even possible that their culture has moved Slaanesh-wards enough that a few Slaanesh worshippers exist amongst them unnoticed. (Although the Rhunkit make that less likely if their sensitivity is good enough)
 
Depending on the plants they grow. I imagine that they were not only drinking water 24/7. A surprising number of plants can be used in interesting ways to spice up drinks. It's just that well... It usually tastes worse than the usual suspects when it comes to flavors. But isolation and bordem could over come that pretty easily.

Second is that it makes sense that they would cultivate lizards. They are hardy little things and if they have a good source of insects it make it all the easier.

There is a surprising amount of things you can make in isolation with no resources beyond rocks and some plants. Just look up what people have done on deserted islands when trapped there for a extended period of time. There is probably a number of demons with brushed egos after having literal rocks dropped on their heads.
 
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BoneyM said:
Azul has its own connection. It's a third of the distance away from the capital that Karag Dum is.
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So is it sort of like a hub and spokes model? As in all roads eventually lead to the main Everpeak hub but only the closest Karaks actually have a direct line to it while they also serve as a hub for those Karaks further away?
 
DragonParadox said:
They might do that anyway. I mean look at what resources they actually have to trade with:
  1. Grain/underground crops
  2. Cave animal meat and leather
  3. Minor runes (light maybe a few others)
  4. Mercenaries, particularly against chaos, if what the Loremaster here feels is at all typical
Only the last two hold any real long term value. I mean sure they will relearn the other trades in time, but it will take time.
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5. Safe Storage
Even after centuries under siege what the manlings stored was still there.
 
Darth. said:
So is it sort of like a hub and spokes model? As in all roads eventually lead to the main Everpeak hub but only the closest Karaks actually have a direct line to it while they also serve as a hub for those Karaks further away?
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All the World's Edge Mountains Old Holds have their own connections, it's just the ones outside it - like Karaz Ghumzul, Ekrund, and Karag Dum - that were chained in via other Holds.
 
Vebyast said:
Teaching everyone runecraft probably also falls under "spiting Slaanesh by engaging in healthy, productive near-excess".
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It almost certainly doesn't. They still kept the teaching to the "some, even barest relation to Thungni necessary". And they are no longer in survival mode. While i have no doubt they will retain lot of their current radicalness, they fundamentally did not change that much.

They are unapologetic about their survival and methods used to get to it, but they still heed traditions to some degree.
 
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Anyway, looking at the big picture of the Vlag situation.
Vlag is unlikely to submit to the Cult of Thungni fully. There are far too many Rhunkit, and it is unlikely that all of them wish to pursue the career of a runesmith full time - they are all runesmiths in the same way that dwarves are all warriors, it is a trade picked up out of necessity, they NEED the massed dispelling power or they all die, but I strongly doubt that all of them have the talent needed to become a full runesmith.

They are well aware of and likely willing to have a runesmith take up residence, they are self admitted as having only apprentice level lore on runes and are clearly familiar with the great utility of runes...provided they get their respect and recognition.
They did not budge to the Chaos Gods and they aren't going to start now for some cranky longbeards.

So basically what I expect to see:
-Short term - Continue stalling, the Cult doesn't HAVE a solution for this, unless they can work the Karaz Ankor into a selfdestructive froth on the matter.

-Mid term - Either a Radical runesmith will move into Vlag, or a tolerant runesmith would. Vlag's issue is largely onesided for now, they know the Cult disapproves, but its not a feud.

-Long term - Reconciliation...or division. Vlag has absolutely no problems going independent and trading solely with Kislev, but at this juncture its all about the image.
If Vlag keeps things local beyond the usual cultural exchange, if they do not trigger the Cult further, and if they start having some local runesmiths trained, then things will normalize and slowly meld in as the Vlag Quirk.
If on the other hand, radical runesmiths start joining Vlag because here the community wouldn't disapprove...things probably would get a little thorny.
Or, considering the distance, they could simply pretend things are not happening. Vlag is FAR from anywhere else after all.

Hopefully Thorek could drop by to check things out. His influence could help bridge the gap, if also give Thorgrim brand new headaches because I'm sure the longbeards would be grumbling most enthusiastically within his hearing.
He's going to replace the Throne klaxon with a grumbling cult one.
 
pucflek said:
It almost certainly doesn't. They still kept the teaching to the "some, even barest relation to Thungni necessary". And they are no longer in survival mode. While i have no doubt they will retain lot of their current radicalness, they fundamentally did not change that much.

They are unapologetic about their survival and methods used to get to it, but they still heed traditions to some degree.
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To be fair, we don't know if they were following that rule out of a desire not to break it entirely, or if non-descendants literally can't be runesmiths for some reason.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
To be fair, we don't know if they were following that rule out of a desire not to break it entirely, or if non-descendants literally can't be runesmiths for some reason.
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If I'm not mistaken the stricture to only teach those of Thungni's blood came from Thungni himself, the rest is a mix of tradition, politics, and best practices.
They wouldn't violate that stricture, they still worship him, they just aren't part of His guild/cult, so the argument is that the guild's rules don't apply
 
Deathbybunnies said:
To be fair, we don't know if they were following that rule out of a desire not to break it entirely, or if non-descendants literally can't be runesmiths for some reason.
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An entirely fair assessment. Shrug. Guess we will learn in the coming time. I would say they still cleave to tradition. The First generation or whatever still form up their part of the council, so i am almost certain they cleave to tradition wherever able, especially now that they are no longer in survival mode.

Thats not to say they won't be radical. I think that the way that Karaz Ankor upholds traditions is way, way beyond what dwarves of old actually consider necessary as way to overcompensate their ovewhelming guilt (See Karak Azul being actually dwarf traditionalists, despite their fresh and relatively open outlook to everything). I think Karaz Ankor calcified in a way that dwarves usually wouldn't, if you take Vlag and Azul as examples as what happens to dwarfs when they are separated.
 
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It occurs to me Vlag really showed up the chaos dwarves - they were in similarly hopeless situations doomed to fall. The chaos dwarves broke. Vlag stuck another fork in slaanesh's eye.
 
You know, if the recent changes in the Karaz Ankor's situation count as a turning of the ages, I wonder if the time between the Great War Against Chaos and now will have a similar name to the preceding small era.

From the Age of Silver, to the Stolen Hope, to the recent woes becoming the Broken Despair, and then... considering the metal names in greater ages, perhaps invoking the "Grom" in Gromril for the Age of Defiance?

Byzantine said:
It occurs to me Vlag really showed up the chaos dwarves - they were in similarly hopeless situations doomed to fall. The chaos dwarves broke. Vlag stuck another fork in slaanesh's eye.
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Honestly, if anything Karak Vlag seems like a foil to Karag Dum: Both caught up in Chaos's direct attentions, but while one fell all the way down in their quest to survive and remain free, the other was more moderated and careful in their approach and so, while they were unable to solve the problem entirely by themselves, still remained uncorrupted enough to rejoin the Karaz Ankor when help finally came.
 
BoneyM said:
"No Runesmith survived long past the Escarpment," he says frankly. "They knew too well where we were, and those that didn't fall in battle petrified themselves in their attempts to free us from it.
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Here's one detail I haven't seen brought up in the Vlag discourse yet: The original Runesmiths didn't just die, they petrified themselves. You know, the thing that happens to Dwarves when they use magic? What were they trying to do to escape? Exactly how radical of a kickflip were they trying to pull off? To an extent it makes perfect sense that their apprentices were willing to toss out millenia of tradition in the name of survival, they might've just seen their mentors do something even crazier.
 
pucflek said:
An entirely fair assessment. Shrug. Guess we will learn in the coming time. I would say they still cleave to tradition. The First generation or whatever still form up their part of the council, so i am almost certain they cleave to tradition wherever able, especially now that they are no longer in survival mode.

Thats not to say they won't be radical. I think that the way that Karaz Ankor upholds traditions is way, way beyond what dwarves of old actually consider necessary as way to overcompensate their ovewhelming guilt (See Karak Azul being actually dwarf traditionalists, despite their fresh and relatively open outlook to everything). I think Karaz Ankor calcified in a way that dwarves usually wouldn't, if you take Vlag and Azul as examples as what happens to dwarfs when they are separated.
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The Karaz Ankor as a whole isn't that calcified- Zhufbar is a centre of innovation and the new Holds nearly got Belegar's father elected as High King on a reclamation focused agenda. Even Karaz-a-Karak has its aircorps.

The general Grudge focused air of despair came from the Karaz Ankor slowly dying with no periods of reclamation (bolstered in this quest by the energy problems).

It remains to be seen how conservative the Old Holds will be when desperately conserving stuff isn't the only thing they can do.
 
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