Okay, that description does make a pretty good attractor I admit... though I think you've got the work time very wrong? We'd need to spend quite a few thousands of BP refitting all the weapons into the more compact form. Even if we need no actual repairs, that'd be running more than 7 turns of work from the repair bay.
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
- Location
- Earth
Despite the tech being called scrap code immunity, it may only bring greater resistance not immunity as explained in the actual research text.
Even if we get the immunity, the research literally called daemonology will never be risk-free since it may end up in us summoning new and exciting daemons on accident!
Why do we even have the vault if we're going to always assume that it can't do its job? Bongo does not have the juice to break out of his crypt. That's why we built that monstrosity.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Don't let the fact that we can't eliminate all risk prevent us from taking the common-sense preparation first.
We're not talking about the early days of an external vault anymore. This is aboard our own ship. If we somehow wind up with exciting new demons inside the oubliette, things will be significantly worse for us if we're dealing with scrapcode attacks at the same time.
We also don't have any psi-shielded bot infantry right now. With scrapcode immunity, even the 25RP psychic tripwires could significantly harden them against bongo's attacks while they're fighting off said hypothetical new demons.
If I assumed it couldn't do its job I would have argued to dispose of Bongo. The vault was always a temporary measure to be absolutely certain, even if the other researches failed, that we would not be screwed by traveling with him. That was its job - it was never to be "done" with psy shield research. The arms race with it didn't actually end, we just built a significant lead.
Now we can safely win the race forever, but 100 RP is too much to do so? What?
When dealing with dangerous subjects, you prepare for the worst, within reason. 100RP is cheap.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Yeah, we've got the vault, we made the investment, we did the common sense preparations.
I thought we'd get Denva to build us a bunch of ships.
I thought we'd get Denva to build us a bunch of ships.
It's not common sense to pour ever more and more resources into polishing cannonballs so that we can push actually resolving the issue further away and find even more cannonballs to polish.
The way you're approaching caution here is making me increasingly sympathetic to the 'discard Bongo' position. And I strongly oppose that!
We don't know how much Denva will have when we get back, but ships are pretty expensive depending on what you're looking for. And, again, designs have to be researched, which is actually fairly expensive if we do multiple designs (especially if we don't get streamlined design first).
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We can literally take scrapcode immunity and demonology at the same time in one action. What delay?
If you want to resolve the issue, then resolve it. 250RP, job done. What the hell else would we get to prepare for binding research if we're immune?
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We can actually end the race forever for 150 RP, instead of being only mostly immune. We're already mostly immune! He knocked off all of 20% of the vault shield while we were in the warp!
Not that I believe there was really a race to begin with.
- Location
- Sydney,Australia
We are definitely not poking the webway gate before
Psychic Encryption(150 RP) because otherwise we'll get jumped by Eldar again and they will be pissed.
Beyond that going to Denva and giving them better sensors might set up a trap for the dark Eldar to fall into also we should be able to get at least another 2 boons out of the techs we have (better sensors and HSI) plus we get a look at their current BP growth rate and what could be available to us after 5-6 turns.
Psychic Encryption(150 RP) because otherwise we'll get jumped by Eldar again and they will be pissed.
Beyond that going to Denva and giving them better sensors might set up a trap for the dark Eldar to fall into also we should be able to get at least another 2 boons out of the techs we have (better sensors and HSI) plus we get a look at their current BP growth rate and what could be available to us after 5-6 turns.
We ought to at least explore the triangle of systems here before returning to Denva. It'll give the tech time to bake.
A Ranger or Pathfinder would be the ideal eldar Crew - most anyone else would balk at spending years on a craft with even the most cultured humans.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Right, sorry, was using some napkin math based on if we'd managed to get the 0.75 cramming on modules too, which'd mean we'd only have needed to free up 500 units of space. Still, that just makes it more important to start early. If we do it this turn, or next turn at the least, we would be maximising the use of our repair bay while prepping for a future runback against any Drukhari in our sights.
We don't really know that. Rolls could get much, much worse than what we got. But overall, you have a point.
Superb Sensors are not the best sensord possible, just the best we can build right now. Piercing Drukhari stealth, when the Eldar have much more advanced technology than us, may take more than that.
This is an interesting idea. I don't think we need to rush that hard to finish the circuit, though. And I do think getting better knowledge of stealth would be good for making sure we don't trigger whatever Bad Things are in wait on a next sector (nevermind two).
My thought was more that getting Faith is My Shield might make Daemonology safer. I am also unsure that demon + bongo > bongo in the warp, within our Gellar Field.
Valid.
Machine Spirit Chaos Resistance would do about as much, and have broader application.
It is sensible to be careful around daemons—they are a singular weakness for AI. I do agree there's such a thing as too careful, but I'm willing to delay Demonology one turn.
We do want the Navigator, but I think we also want to finish this circuit first. The navigator tech is expensive and our need of one will be greatest when we have a fleet.
True! Plus they'll have more manufacturing for us when we get back. I also want to let them develop independently for a couple generations. We need to pay the Prime Directive some respect.
That's valid. I still think we should still get at least one more tech up the ladder before declaring "this is perfect, let's commit a tonne of resources to it."
No matter how many WWI sensors you cram into a craft, it's not going to beat even commercial grade instrumentation of today.
- Location
- Earth
We have two different cramming researches currently available:
This one adds a 0.9 multiplier for our combat equipment.
4600*0.9=4140 => 460 BP new space.
4600*1.5 = 6900 repair bay BP to cash in => 7 turns if no other damage occurs.
This one moves our 0.9 weapons multiplier to 0.75.
4900*0.75 = 3675 => 735 BP new space
4900*1.5 = 7350 repair bay BP to cash in => more than 7 turns if no other damage occurs.
We'll be back in Denva before we'll get both done definitely. At most one is worth considering.
Equipment Distribution is cheaper in RP, but also gives us less BP in space. (100 vs 200 RP, 460 vs 735BP)
- Pronouns
- He/They
Hmm, definitely quite a few directions we could go this turn, I largely agree with MSH's plan as it seems to have a decent spread of most of the things we want, though a few observations.
-This turn it was mentioned now that Vita can actually see whatever warp shenannigans Cia is up to, if she understood pyromancy more she could assist her, or at least know when to step in sooner. Pyromantic understanding should be a decent priority maybe not this turn, but eventually.
-We've added improved sensors which have apparently helped quite a bit, though we still have 2 more upgrades available to us right now. We should research one of the cramming techs and free up some space for this upgrade/possibly others before focusing too much on researching yet more improved sensors.
-Not to say that stealth/sensor techs are a bad call, both would greatly expand our range of options.
-Webway gate isn't going anywhere and we're likely a few prerequisite techs away from getting any use out of it, at the very least Teleportation is like skipping a stone. Plus, we've got enough on our plates already research wise.
-This turn it was mentioned now that Vita can actually see whatever warp shenannigans Cia is up to, if she understood pyromancy more she could assist her, or at least know when to step in sooner. Pyromantic understanding should be a decent priority maybe not this turn, but eventually.
-We've added improved sensors which have apparently helped quite a bit, though we still have 2 more upgrades available to us right now. We should research one of the cramming techs and free up some space for this upgrade/possibly others before focusing too much on researching yet more improved sensors.
-Not to say that stealth/sensor techs are a bad call, both would greatly expand our range of options.
-Webway gate isn't going anywhere and we're likely a few prerequisite techs away from getting any use out of it, at the very least Teleportation is like skipping a stone. Plus, we've got enough on our plates already research wise.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Yes, I know, we just went over that. Like I said, my initial five turn estimate was for if our combat equipment (mixed them up with modules) cramming had also gone down to 0.75. Nevertheless, if we can get that 750 points of space, we can implement Superb Sensors, massively boosting our ability to investigate oddities and ensure most stealthed ships won't even get into long range without being nailed down. Seven, even eight or nine turns doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things when we literally wouldn't be using the repair bay for anything other than free repairs anyway.
It's not like future sensor techs wouldn't apply. The resources we're committing are literally free, and we could just research those sensor techs in the seven-ish turns it'd take to resize all the ship weapons, before we build the actual sensor array. All I'm asking is that we do the cramming now so that we can research the improved sensors while working towards the superb sensor array.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean, sure, but that's also hedging against what's basically a nat 1 outcome, whereas scrapcode immunity + tripwires basically gets us the same benefit for the purpose of demonology research but also saves a lot of repair costs in more likely outcomes, and applies to the nested shield covering Vita that would be under direct attack during the demonology research while MSCR would not.
I wouldn't mind having both, but if we're talking "what makes me willing to vote for demonology this turn", scrapcode immunity is it for a reason. It is our bang for buck option.
Then you haven't been reading the same quest as me, because it has explicitly been learning about the defenses holding him in to improve its attacks, including gear behind those defenses. That's why Psychic Encryption was even brought up in the narrative, Vita noticed that Bongo was expertly adapting to things it shouldn't have even been able to see.
This, after it started out trying to say "yes" and "maybe" at our shields like a dumbass, which is why the thread named it bongo in the first place.
The hidden rolls were for learning AND power build up. It was always an adaptation race, and the only time we were at risk of losing was that time we decided to yell "time's up, leroy jenkins!" and do the scrapcode research without upgrading our shields, because "the vault he's in is so strong, we spent all this money to make it 50 BP" and "He hasn't built up much power".
And just like back then, the protections of the vault he's in just plain matter less when we're directly experimenting upon him - remember how Bongo directly attacked the Spark's main shields before breaking the vault? Now those aren't between Vita and Bongo anymore, only the 135HP nested shield is. The only reason we're not less safe experimenting on bongo than we were during the breakout outright is because of scrapcode resistance.
You are, without hyperbole, suggesting we make the same mistake as back then, and using the same mistaken rhetoric to argue for it.
Because you want to save 100 RP not getting the nat100 crit tech.
We slipped when we tried your way before, and we succeeded when we tried mine. Why abandon what works?
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Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
I specifically want to either go back to Denva now, or prioritize finishing the circuit and going back in a turn or two.
Of the webgate? Both are about equal and would help in different ways. But what you really need to do is take the time to think about how to poke the webgate and how much risk of pissing off the Eldar you're willing to take. You'll get more for less with both of those techs though.
Kind of. It's the same kind of thing where the more invasive you're willing to be, the more trouble it'll save you later on. Scans would be a minimal starting point, but if you were to actually send bots down to examine it then that would be better, and if you're willing to stick around and actually do experiments on it that would be the easiest yet.
Fixed, thanks.
Probably the best thing would be something like Basic Cognition Filter, maybe combined with Personality-Checking Routines. That's for the technological solution. There may be a warp-based solution past Faith and additional warp sensing tech, but it would be a lot more metaphorical.
I hadn't thought about it. Maybe?
Fixed, thanks.
Maybe, if Vita has people to practice against. It might be a follow-on tech, or it might be a way that a Commander-type Crew helps out.
Fixed, thanks.
This isn't important. They're not expecting frequent check-ins.
They're way the fuck on the other side of the sector. Like 60 systems away from the Dark Eldar. They would be willing to help out if you provided a good enough bribe, but it's not really a pressing priority for them.
It would help if you were more direct with your questions. I'm skimming through things and just an "Is that right" means I need to read the whole conversation in detail to offer a good opinion. That being said - kinda. There's probably some advanced machine spirit techs that might contribute, and samples of advanced cogitators could help to. But generally, it's going to be hard to discount much more.
Huh. gceilan. Cool.
Demonology is a bit of a special example because you have a pet demon in a cage. It's like if you had a small webway gate on your ship that you could poke. It helps a lot.
He's gonna turn you all into a bunch of weebs.
Hmm. Yes? Yes. There's an open question of if you would get another boon from trading over the sensor & cybernetic simulation tech though. It would probably depend on a roll? They're probably still in the ramp phase (again, rolls) so it wouldn't be a great time to cash in your manufacturing boon.
Though the simulation tech would increase their research speed. But not as much if they weren't directly working with you.
The issue here is that you'd need another layered psy-shields research or else these would have to turn off while inside of the shielded areas of the ship. Like the crew quarters. And the psychic research lab.
It's probably the most significant impact this turn, but if you don't do it then she'll wait and still get the bonus next turn, though you could also promise to do it later.
You'd need to rebuild the vault. It's a single piece, you can't just lop off a chunk of it.
I just realized I forgot to have the Perils of the Warp do damage to the shielding on the psy lab. It took 76 damage, well within fixable by the repair bay.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
So. 2 things.
1- does psyker genetics/agumentics have any impact on the navigator stuff?
Mutation research probably does. Because while many questers expressed their desire to get that hero unity no one brought up the part we don't really have any institutional knowledge to raise a magical fish child.
2- couldn't we just make no-so-much-cogboys? Like with the in vitro research and genetics enhancements
We could just have a lot of neotypes on demand and have like 300 of them in like 6 to 8 turns.
1- does psyker genetics/agumentics have any impact on the navigator stuff?
Mutation research probably does. Because while many questers expressed their desire to get that hero unity no one brought up the part we don't really have any institutional knowledge to raise a magical fish child.
2- couldn't we just make no-so-much-cogboys? Like with the in vitro research and genetics enhancements
We could just have a lot of neotypes on demand and have like 300 of them in like 6 to 8 turns.
Nothing says applying future techs won't necessitate another expensive refitting.
You are ignoring the fact that that outcome, beyond any decisions made, necessitated us rolling horribly and it rolling very well... and we still can't out okay, which if anything proves we were okay—we survived a near worst-case outcome.
There is such a thing as overprepping, and there's no way to neuter a critfail completely. Being too risk-averse can lead to a failure to seize the initiative.
Ah. I see. Still don't understand why, but I din't have to get that to respect your priorities.
I was more thinking...
Which one would allow us to be the least detectably invasive. Which I guess is "both are as good as the other."
Thank you.
And well, that puts a kibosh on reducing Bongo's footprint. I say we get scrapcode immunity and Faith Shield now and study Demonology next turn.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
They aren't expensive! The repair bay doesn't do anything other than repair otherwise! We're literally not expending anything! And this is seven turns away, minimum! Before then we'll just be making extra space we can use at any time for modules we find out we need, like the advanced reverse engineering bay. And if we do find, ten turns in the future, we need to refit… so what? We'll still be able to use the repair bay's free actions to do so! And we'll be doing it with extra space!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
While I understand the general issue about ceding initiative - you're overstating the improbability of that situation. Our sensors say Bongo isn't starting from empty this time, and our 'horrible roll' was a 14, the max a roll could be while still being a poor success.
Bongo and us rolling into those same brackets at the same time is about a 1.4% chance. Implausible, yes, but not that implausible.
That said, point of order about neutering nat 1s: Yes we can.
Emphasis mine.
Bongo was only ever dangerous for us to research because of the necron clause at the end there. We have almost removed that danger from consideration - we normally wouldn't have had such a possibility on the table, but then we rolled a nat 100 on the tech that was solely about fucking over bongo's specialty, so now we do.
...I could go on, but at least we seem agreed on the demonology/SC Immunity build order at this point.
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- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
Emotional support pets are helpful, yes.
We can call this hypothetical small webway gate Wongo.
@Neablis.
Plz.
Give us a Wongo.
We are normal and can be trusted with webway gates.
My point is we could commit to seven turns of refits only to need to start over two to five turns in.
Fair enough! I like compromise, and I think Scrapcode Immunity will likely be useful in the future anyway. Now... have you heard the word of our lord and saviour, Plan: Gate Snooping? Could move Scrapcode Immunity above Gellar Fields, get it nice and primed for us to research it first, then move on to Demonology with Immunity and Faith on our side.