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Whenever we get around to refugee efforts we are going to need ships to handle it. So I mocked up two concept ships.

Starbus - Destroyer (1450 VBP, 100 CP, 25 RP), Hull: (500, 1600m x 400m), Engines: 6 Gravities, Shields: Medium, Armor: Medium, Hull Equipment (200 BP): Warp Drive, Void Abacus, Psychic Shielding: 20 HP, Weapons (200 BP, 180 Size): 1x Shuttles, 2x Point Defense, Non-Combat Equipment (300 BP, 300 Size): 4x Troop Compartment, 4x Medical Bay
The Starbus is designed to move 40,000 people from point A to B. It has shuttle to handle it's own logistics, but it would take a fair bit of time to load and unload the ship. Since it is designed with refugees in mind I assumed a ~10% injury rate and added the medical facilities to accommodate that.

Nightingale - Frigate (2850 VBP, 200 CP, 50 RP), Hull: (1000, 2200m x 600m), Engines: 6 Gravities, Shields: Medium, Armor: Medium, Hull Equipment (400 BP): Warp Drive, Void Abacus, Psychic Shielding: 40 HP, Weapons (400 BP, 360 Size): 2x Shuttles, 4x Point Defense, Non-Combat Equipment (600 BP, 600 Size): 2x Troop Compartment, 20x Medical Bay,
The Nightingale is a dedicated hospital ship for providing medical relief to any world/location that needs it. It is able to treat and hold 20,000 patients at a time.

For either ship we would probably want robotic attendants to help manage the population and the treatment. @Neablis could our existing light bots be used as first responders or would we need to design a new model for that? I'd want them capable of acting as both EMTs and Police Officers (non-lethal only).
 
Whenever we get around to refugee efforts we are going to need ships to handle it. So I mocked up two concept ships.

Starbus - Destroyer (1450 VBP, 100 CP, 25 RP), Hull: (500, 1600m x 400m), Engines: 6 Gravities, Shields: Medium, Armor: Medium, Hull Equipment (200 BP): Warp Drive, Void Abacus, Psychic Shielding: 20 HP, Weapons (200 BP, 180 Size): 1x Shuttles, 2x Point Defense, Non-Combat Equipment (300 BP, 300 Size): 4x Troop Compartment, 4x Medical Bay
The Starbus is designed to move 40,000 people from point A to B. It has shuttle to handle it's own logistics, but it would take a fair bit of time to load and unload the ship. Since it is designed with refugees in mind I assumed a ~10% injury rate and added the medical facilities to accommodate that.

Nightingale - Frigate (2850 VBP, 200 CP, 50 RP), Hull: (1000, 2200m x 600m), Engines: 6 Gravities, Shields: Medium, Armor: Medium, Hull Equipment (400 BP): Warp Drive, Void Abacus, Psychic Shielding: 40 HP, Weapons (400 BP, 360 Size): 2x Shuttles, 4x Point Defense, Non-Combat Equipment (600 BP, 600 Size): 2x Troop Compartment, 20x Medical Bay,
The Nightingale is a dedicated hospital ship for providing medical relief to any world/location that needs it. It is able to treat and hold 20,000 patients at a time.

For either ship we would probably want robotic attendants to help manage the population and the treatment. @Neablis could our existing light bots be used as first responders or would we need to design a new model for that? I'd want them capable of acting as both EMTs and Police Officers (non-lethal only).
I really don't think those are designs we would want to use in any kind of mass evacuation. Their capacity is incredibly low for their cost. They're nice enough ships, but they're very bad at actually solving the problem of moving a lot of people.

I'd also argue for using assault shuttles instead of civilian cargo shuttles, if you're going to include either, as it gives the ships a useful secondary role - though TBF that does cost an extra 50 BP and thus conflict with my penny-pinching above.

The Starbus transports less than 30 people per BP. It would need 200 trips to clear even the paltry 8 million here.

The Nightengale is better at solving a problem I can, at least, readily imagine us having, though not the problem that Vorthryn appears to pose. Though it's still a more than a 5:1 ratio of total to primary role component BP.
 
And if we leave tech-priest here to try to uplift this place,
Which I have repeatedly emphasized we are not doing.

This is a stopgap meant to operate for about 15-20 years, after which Denva takes over, armed with third generation sensors if we have the good sense to develop them.

Maybe that 5 we rolled unveiled a faction that can work in place of our techpriests, but I'm not counting on it. It is worthwhile to plan around having to do the stopgap ourselves, with the resources and technology we know will be available.
I think you are really underestimating the Drukhari here. Their technology, their skill and just the sheer petty spitefullness of their sadism. These are people who, sometimes very literally, have practiced exploiting vulnerable targets to bring it to a level of a literal art-form. Though even then, if we were a complete unknown to the Drukhari at this point, I might have been able to trust the protection that obscurity would bring. Unfortunately, we don't have that anymore, and in fact defied the local Drukhari raiders and their leader by not allowing anything to be stolen from our ship.
Xyaris is long gone, and has more priorities and enemies than just us. We're a curiosity to her, probably not a priority.

But even if we were - she has to learn our assets are even here after we leave, which is not an obvious conclusion to make from "the people on the ship are paying tribute to people on some stations".

And however expert and sadistic the Drukhari may be at capture and torture, Vita is an expert at using self destruct systems to preserve opsec, these techpriests have been read in on that MO for decades and all but worship her as a god, and any volunteers for this mission will be briefed and approved by Victan, who is an expert in counterintelligence.

The series of events required to even get to that point are extroardinarily likely to happen in 20 years - Denva, a prosperous crossroads system with lots to loot, only gets one visitor every ten! We're in a bypassable route along a single branch going towards that crossroads, and Xylaris doesn't even know which branch we took if she decides she wants to chase us...

...and if she's searching thoroughly enough to have even the slightest chance of finding our boys, then she either has to split up her assets to check both, slowing the search, or guess correctly. And that is if she guesses that we're one system away, which considering more standard travel speeds are double digit systems per fourth of a turn is, uh.

Well, from her perspective the net she would have to cast to look is wide, and the wider she goes the more her activity gets noticed by the corsairs pissed off at her.

Which she'd have to pull from other priorities, and compensate for uncertain returns.

Assuming Xylaris might try to do a salty runback and therefore look hard enough to find us is missing how hard it would be for her to try, basically. It doesn't really change anything - our means for deploying a stealthy and well informed humanitarian operation as a stopgap remain sufficient.
However. Why don't we just make this much safer way, and just pick and train some locals to become the equivalent of tech-priest initiates? Without telling them the truth about Vita? Give them a crash course in maintaining and fixing the local technology, uplift primers for further reading, some augmentations to those wiling so that they can better absorb information and be able to better to defend themselves, and the technology to start expanding both their numbers and repairs they do. Doesn't require leaving behind our tech-priest crew and still gets the job done.
Because these are cavemen in space, running a humanitarian operation is actually kind of complicated, nevermind a tech-first one like this would need to be, and we would have zero guarantee they don't just take the bag and run instead of helping because unlike the techpriests, these are people we just met who have no proven loyalty to us nor our goals, and who also have had deadly fights with the very people we'd be asking them to help.

And who would have to continue to risk their lives to distribute aid. And if they evacuate the station, would be taking in what might be a violent rival tribe in their entirety onboard the ship where they could do the most damage.

Our techpriests' ability to control bots is a lot of what makes humanitarian operations possible here, and the natives will not get to do that, and even if they could, left to their own devices we'd risk them just using the bots as their own military in the same old struggles.
What are you planning to build for them with a sensor package??
An early warning system, operated remotely by our techpriests with optional assistance in carrying shifts from locals they deem trustworthy.

What bleeding, though? There's no rapid collapse in progress. They'll still be here in 3 turns if we do nothing, as a population.
Recall that stations have already failed before we gotten here:
"So when the Imperium abandoned Vorthryn and pulled all of their tech-priests out, most of the stations died out. And I mean died. The vast majority of them are cold and dark, and appear to have been so for at least a hundred years.
My reading here is that while most failed in the long past - not all of them did. Neablis's previous answer about "250 BP to stabilize, less if given voluntary access" implied that those that remain are not in good shape. If a station goes dark while people are still on it, that's tens of thousands dead in one stroke.

Though, I suppose I should confirm that reading, get a better grasp on the specifics. @Neablis - have any of the stations appeared to have died in the recent past, or appear to be at risk of doing so in the next 20 years?

I rather thought exploring some stars was the point. We've done very little of that, and have very little need to stop.
It's the overall vibe of the quest, but I pointed out before we even entered this system that there's no reason for the 3 jump tour we initially planned to stay prioritized over exploring anywhere else - in fact, I preferred that we check out denva's immediate neighbors one after the other at that time, and I still do prefer this.

We're not going to stop exploring. But we have spent the time we anticipated exploring before stopping back at denva already. Our exploration quota is filled. I'm eager to go on more adventures, but we have to balance that with some base management so to speak or we'll be stuck with diminishing returns among a galaxy that is quickly becoming dangerous.
 
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I really don't think those are designs we would want to use in any kind of mass evacuation. Their capacity is incredibly low for their cost. They're nice enough ships, but they're very bad at actually solving the problem of moving a lot of people.

I'd also argue for using assault shuttles instead of civilian cargo shuttles, if you're going to include either, as it gives the ships a useful secondary role - though TBF that does cost an extra 50 BP and thus conflict with my penny-pinching above.

The Starbus transports less than 30 people per BP. It would need 200 trips to clear even the paltry 8 million here.

The Nightengale is better at solving a problem I can, at least, readily imagine us having, though not the problem that Vorthryn appears to pose. Though it's still a more than a 5:1 ratio of total to primary role component BP.

...I dunno. A single starbus might be useful? But some kind of 'mostly shuttles' ship would probably be more useful? Or maybe just bring factory and cargo ships, and plan to build everything needed in this system here?

Oh, also, we really should get started on warp comms. Ideally, we'd have the tech developed before we left Denva again - and we need to research Alternative Shielding Meanings + Empathy at Range -> Shouting Into the Warp -> Warp Comms to do that, which would involve three turns ideally, so we'll probably want to get started immediately.

There's also Bongo, and getting Empathy at Range and taking an action to look at the webgate, I dunno how we want to prioritize them, but I don't think we should ignore them, either.
 
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Recall that stations have already failed before we gotten here:
My reading here is that while most failed in the long past - not all of them did. Neablis's previous answer about "250 BP to stabilize, less if given voluntary access" implied that those that remain are not in good shape. If a station goes dark while people are still on it, that's tens of thousands dead in one stroke.

Though, I suppose I should confirm that reading, get a better grasp on the specifics. @Neablis - have any of the stations appeared to have died in the recent past, or appear to be at risk of doing so in the next 20 years?
I don't assert 100% of stations will definitely survive the next few decades without intervention.

I do assert we have no reason to think a significant fraction would fail in such a timeframe.
 
Which I have repeatedly emphasized we are not doing.

This is a stopgap meant to operate for about 15-20 years, after which Denva takes over, armed with third generation sensors if we have the good sense to develop them.

Maybe that 5 we rolled unveiled a faction that can work in place of our techpriests, but I'm not counting on it. It is worthwhile to plan around having to do the stopgap ourselves, with the resources and technology we know will be available.
Sorry, missed the part about them not trying an uplift but just trying to keep systems working. However, I understood that they would be left for here for some time, and I still find it it completely unaccaptable. And way too complex way of handling things with too many vulnerabilities.
Xyaris is long gone, and has more priorities and enemies than just us. We're a curiosity to her, probably not a priority.
Okay, regardless of anything else:
Oh she definitely has a reason to hunt us down, because we hurt her pride. She managed a perfect interception... and then managed to kill 8 tech priests. That is by dark eldar standards pathetic.
You (or mostly Cia) also killed some people in fancy armor. You don't know who they are, but you definitely hurt more than her pride.
This sounds to me that we have managed to gain an enemy from a race that is both as petty as it is sadistic. Defying someone who rules through power and fear, and being the direct cause of death for some probably actually important followers of hers? Likely not a good look for her, so she might be searching for a chance to both strengthen her position as well as sate her thirst for revenge. Those being often one and the same thing in Drukhari society.

As for your trust for being able to prevent the Drukhari from finding, getting close enough and then capturing the tech-priests? They already saw last time that we use a self-destruct method to prevent capture of tech for our bots. If Xylaris comes after our people specifically, you can bet that she will have countermeasures for them having it too. And considering how physics (and soul) breaking Dark Eldar technology is... Well, I can easily see them having specific technology for disabling any suicide implants. Among their other methods of preventing people to end their lives, once they've captured them.

Plus considering that the Dark Eldar are constantly fighting with each other, they are very likely also to have methods to counter the stealth of their rivals too. And, you know, to find and capture targets trying to hide from them. And their leaders also being very cunning predators on top of all this, for them to be able to stay in that position in the first place. So no, I don't feel very safe about your assumptions about our tech-priests having a good chance of hiding from them.

Anyway, I believe that the winning move is not to leave vulnerable and valuable targets (to them) for the Drukhari to assault. Don't play the game of trying to hide things from them, unless we actually equal or surpass them when it comes to stealth (or if you are just a complete unknown to them). Just stack enough military power to important places, so that assaulting them becomes unprofitable or even just impossible with the forces they have available.
Because these are cavemen in space, running a humanitarian operation is actually kind of complicated, nevermind a tech-first one like this would need to be, and we would have zero guarantee they don't just take the bag and run instead of helping because unlike the techpriests, these are people we just met who have no proven loyalty to us nor our goals, and who also have had deadly fights with the very people we'd be asking them to help.

And who would have to continue to risk their lives to distribute aid. And if they evacuate the station, would be taking in what might be a violent rival tribe in their entirety onboard the ship where they could do the most damage.

Our techpriests' ability to control bots is a lot of what makes humanitarian operations possible here, and the natives will not get to do that, and even if they could, left to their own devices we'd risk them just using the bots as their own military in the same old struggles.
Five years to get some basics going and then leave them uplift primers. Maybe some uplift campus -lite version if that is in the cards. And some other aid material and military-grade personal gear and weapons. More than enough for any faction that is already holding their own to start winning decisively in most encounters with hostiles, and hopefully expanding and repairing things. And still not enough to truly threaten either us or the Stellar Ascendancy.
 
Unless the ship being better than we might expect entails them having institutions that readily turn to technical education, I'm really pessimistic about the utility of uplift primers here.

On Denva, they worked great, because Denva already had engineering education as a thing, they just needed better information.

We could easily be dealing with societies that outright don't have book-learning, organized education, or the concept of technologists. At which point bootstrapping from texts...well, given enough time they might pull it off, but it'd be horribly slow.

It's pretty likely that to uplift these people requires teachers.
 
Unless the ship being better than we might expect entails them having institutions that readily turn to technical education, I'm really pessimistic about the utility of uplift primers here.

On Denva, they worked great, because Denva already had engineering education as a thing, they just needed better information.

We could easily be dealing with societies that outright don't have book-learning, organized education, or the concept of technologists. At which point bootstrapping from texts...well, given enough time they might pull it off, but it'd be horribly slow.

It's pretty likely that to uplift these people requires teachers.
...And Denva is perfectly capable of being those teachers. We do not, can not, solve every problem, we would never get anywhere otherwise. That is why we are building up a stellar nation state that can do that for us, and this system? It's right in their home Sub Sector.
 
We probably can make robots with the fancy diplomacy knowledge, like diplomat/educator androids. Humans would be better on the longer run but we can get some millage of it of it.

Dumping things on Denva's Lap is a bit complicated because they don't have a formal duty to do it. They are our allies not our minnions. We need minions to operate on a scale larger than just one planet reliably.
 
I don't assert 100% of stations will definitely survive the next few decades without intervention.

I do assert we have no reason to think a significant fraction would fail in such a timeframe.
Then let me be clear. One failing before we can attempt evac is too many. Tens. Of Thousands. Dead. Each.

Very, very little investment is necessary to meet the bar of doing said evac, because the ship is already big enough to take on an entire station's population, and as you say - they won't all fail at once.
As for your trust for being able to prevent the Drukhari from finding, getting close enough and then capturing the tech-priests? They already saw last time that we use a self-destruct method to prevent capture of tech for our bots. If Xylaris comes after our people specifically, you can bet that she will have countermeasures for them having it too. And considering how physics (and soul) breaking Dark Eldar technology is... Well, I can easily see them having specific technology for disabling any suicide implants. Among their other methods of preventing people to end their lives, once they've captured them.
Just because she wants to have such countermeasures doesn't mean she can get ones that will work on DAoT tech. She has no samples, explosives are dirt simple, and our machine spirits are already more hacking-resilient than the impressive baseline.

If the tech priests go to ground in shuttles, you could even dead man switch it to a hull breach. You could have a match and a pile of gunpowder. You could ignite the shuttle's fuel tank! If you're in a factory, you can jump in a resource hopper and get ground up into hamburger by the processor! You can shoot yourself with a plasma gun!

Like, what in god's name kind of magical tech are you envisioning that could account for all of that from naval range, and why doesn't it function as a "you don't get to fight anymore" button everywhere else? The capability you are describing would not be subtle or obscure, it would be a headlining, iconic military technology that Xylaris already would have had during her first raid.

People would be batshit terrified of the Drukhari ability to reach into your ship's systems to tamper with its reactor, make its fuel inert, disable your infantry weapons, and shut down your machinery, make your own bespoke implants stop working even though they had zero samples of its techbase, and make cyanide stop working somehow, all from a separate vessel. That is the kind of insanity you would need for what you describe to be possible.

Just, no. They are not going to be able to stop a self destruct. Them managing a capture despite an attempt at SD is nat 1 territory in a situation that already took something like a nat 1 to get to in the first place. Since, you know, they still have to get lucky or cast a massive net to even be in the system to attempt to beat improved passive stealth before our 2nd gen sensors see them trying first.

And they have to do that in 20 years, before Denva arrives, shelving any other priorities, just dropping them, to focus on this. Only Xylaris and her crew know what happened in that raid. It won't hit her rep unless she lets it, or Vita tries to spread it herself. So just, don't do that in the next 20 years I guess????

Capture is a risk beneath notice.
Five years to get some basics going and then leave them uplift primers. Maybe some uplift campus -lite version if that is in the cards. And some other aid material and military-grade personal gear and weapons. More than enough for any faction that is already holding their own to start winning decisively in most encounters with hostiles, and hopefully expanding and repairing things. And still not enough to truly threaten either us or the Stellar Ascendancy.
Which still won't be enough for them to do competent humanitarian operations unless we got really lucky on that 1d6 5. I'll take the W if it looks like that's an option anyways, but I'm not counting on it.
 
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Then let me be clear. One failing before we can attempt evac is too many. Tens. Of Thousands. Dead. Each.

Very, very little investment is necessary to meet the bar of doing said evac, because the ship is already big enough to take on an entire station's population, and as you say - they won't all fail at once.
Does the ship? I am not aware of this information...
 
Then let me be clear. One failing before we can attempt evac is too many. Tens. Of Thousands. Dead. Each.

According to Neablis, they have a couple thousand each - so, like, maybe 5000, tops:

They're kinda caveman in space. The 250 BP of goods would basically be a standalone self-sufficient reactor/hydroponic/life support system you could drop in the middle of a hallowed out-asteroid to make it support a few thousand people, though not comfortably.

If not more like 2,500 each. And if that's all the people the ship can support, it's a lot less promising as a place to evac them too.
 
According to Neablis, they have a couple thousand each - so, like, maybe 5000, tops:

If not more like 2,500 each. And if that's all the people the ship can support, it's a lot less promising as a place to evac them too.
Hm. Well, that's better - but as for the ship being able to do that support, there's three factors here:

Does the ship? I am not aware of this information...
1, Imperium ships are fucking huge. Ships in 40k are just in general, they're kilometers long monstrosities that even when controlled by imperials have lots of unused space, often with things hiding in them for adventure hooks' sake.

When describing how massive and sprawling 40k ships are, somebody else in the thread described an official roll table out there for things you find checking your own ship, and one of the results is "a separate captain and crew who thought it was them operating the ship ". It's rather wild.

I'm confident the ship will be big enough for our needs, given the next two bits, but it certainly doesn't hurt that we're about to learn more from our diplomatic and military exploits taking the thing over.

Anyways!

2, we should be able to use the repair bay to beef up the ship's capacity to support a population inside - I was considering using it to provide it a 2nd gen sensor package, after all, could do that instead, but might not have to because...

3: Ship housing is only temporary. We can fix up currently dead stations as destinations, or we can consolidate on already-filled stations that are more stable.

The consideration is roughly the same - populated station failures are mass death events that we can mitigate without industrial buildup first, and do not require a large scale to do. Just having trusted people here with control of the ship to do evac with, and some ability to make parts and food to support the displaced.

Denva can handle the rest, and I remain in favor of leaving for denva this turn.
 
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2, we should be able to use the repair bay to beef up the ship's capacity to support a population inside - I was considering using it to provide it a 2nd gen sensor package, after all, could do that instead, but might not have to because...

Nope, Neablis explicitly said:

Nope. It's explicitly supposed to be the simplest possible repair bay. I've let you stretch it so far mostly for the sake of simplicity. But you can assume that anything that's not something you built, unmodified and still largely intact it can repair. If a ship is no longer functional it's also probably unfixable by the repair bay either.

And again, fixing stations is a couple hundred BP each, and there's well over a hundred of them. We just don't have the resources to make a dent in that here.

The consideration is roughly the same - populated station failures are mass death events that we can mitigate without industrial buildup first, and do not require a large scale to do. Just having trusted people here with control of the ship to do evac with, and some ability to make parts and food to support the displaced.

So, no, this is explicitly false.
 
Nope, Neablis explicitly said:
Rereading the original question, I see that applying it to refit sensors onto the ship is a stretch, yeah. But as for the rest of it...
And again, fixing stations is-
Unnecessary. Fixing a bunch of stations is unnecessary, and not what I'm suggesting. Everything else you said would be irrelevant, because I have been talking about evacuations, and perhaps fixing one or two stations to make room, not fixing all of them because that's Denva's job as we've both agreed on since yesterday.

At the end of the day, the repair bay BP was... well, it was a nice to have, basically? It gave more options for safeguards to throw at the problem, but it's not needed for the core idea.

Find the stations that are in danger of failing in the next 20 years and get the people off of them, while having enough food to feed them. Give food to other stations to alleviate some famine. That's it.
 
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Unnecessary. Fixing a bunch of stations is unnecessary, and not what I'm suggesting. Everything else you said would be irrelevant, because I have been talking about evacuations, and perhaps fixing one or two stations to make room, not fixing all of them because that's Denva's job as we've both agreed on since yesterday.

That is one of the things you suggested:

3: Ship housing is only temporary. We can fix up currently dead stations as destinations, or we can consolidate on already-filled stations that are more stable.

As for consolidating on already filled stations... That's very much a maybe. That means pushing those stations closer to the edge, and adds an additional possible vector for violence. And also requires figuring out which stations are on the brink of collapse, out of the 100+ present, and evacuating them in time - even if the shuttles can get there in time, if the people can't or won't organize themselves to get on the shuttle, then you're out of luck. I mean, we can wait and see what Neablis says, but again, I really don't think this is practical.

If it is practical, we'd probably need to do all of the work ahead of time... Again, we'll need to wait and see what Neablis has to say about it, but it's probably going to be an entirely different prospect than 'just leave some tech priests behind and let them handle it'. May not be any point in leaving the tech priests behind at all, and just have Vita do all the evacuations pre-emptively.

I will also note, by 40k standards, this system honestly isn't that bad? Ascalon probably has more people dying horrific unnecessary deaths overall, simply by nature of it's larger population and intact repressive fascist government. And if we keep cruising outwards from here, I bet we find several systems that are even worse. See:

The city itself hosts at least hundreds of millions, with the potential of billions if the lower levels are as populated as you fear they might be. It's not exactly a hiveworld like you've read about in some of the database entries, but it's not too far off. They have a spaceport and space-based capability, because there's a small orbital platform in a far orbit that appears to mostly serve as a transshipment point for the ground. There's a small mechanicus enclave there, but it's very small, and seems to have a very low status, with the primary purpose being to connects Ascalon to the moon.
 
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That is one of the things you suggested:
3: Ship housing is only temporary. We can fix up currently dead stations as destinations, or we can consolidate on already-filled stations that are more stable.
Yep, I did. You will notice that I said "fix up currently dead stations", not "fix up all currently dead stations", and only for the purpose of making room for refugees from ones that are actually about to fail and kill everyone on them. And even then, it's not 1:1 "need a fixed station for an evac'd one" - none of the stations are actually at their designed capacity, certainly not their capacity for "physical space to live in". Mechanized AG pulls a lot of weight there, since we don't have to rely on the food production capabilities of poorly manned imperial stations.

I said abandoned ones because there's nobody to negotiate with - we can revive them for much, much cheaper than 250 BP, if we fail to find takers in currently inhabited ones. Meanwhile, food aid from mechanized AG is a great way to get that buy in for such repairs from inhabited stations.

No contradiction with what we agreed on yesterday at all. I don't know why you read a complete 180 of my position from yesterday and onto this very page into that, but...

Like, in the future, if you think I've somehow done a complete 180 on a core point that we've both agreed to without explanation, particularly a core point that I've reaffirmed multiple times on the very same page, please double check. Ask me if you're uncertain what I mean by something if you need to. I try to be clear when I've changed my mind about something.
As for consolidating on already filled stations... That's very much a maybe. That means pushing those stations closer to the edge, and adds an additional possible vector for violence. And also requires figuring out which stations are on the brink of collapse, out of the 100+ present, and evacuating them in time - even if the shuttles can get there in time, if the people can't or won't organize themselves to get on the shuttle, then you're out of luck. I mean, we can wait and see what Neablis says, but again, I really don't think this is practical.
If they refuse to evacuate, there's not much that can be done without, like, sending bots in and forcing them into the ship's holds before dumping them off at a fixed up station.

We won't always be able to do that. I'd prefer it if it didn't come to that even once. But providing the opportunity to survive is a darn sight better than leaving them to die.
If it is practical, we'd probably need to do all of the work ahead of time... Again, we'll need to wait and see what Neablis has to say about it, but it's probably going to be an entirely different prospect than 'just leave some tech priests behind and let them handle it'. May not be any point in leaving the tech priests behind at all, and just have Vita do all the evacuations pre-emptively.
This, though, is a fantastic point and touches on some of the information I'm waiting for from Neablis - namely, the question I pinged him for about if we can tell if there have been recent station failures, or if there are imminent ones. One of my unstated assumptions is that some may go from "in disrepair, but working" to "soon to fail" abruptly, which is the kind of thing having some techpriests behind keeping watch would cover for, but Vita can probably tell what's at risk of that too.

We'll just have to see. As for techpriests being behind to handle it:
They wouldn't be completely inactive if that's what you mean, but they also wouldn't be as productive as you are. You could set them up with a mission and they could do it even if you weren't around or in contact. You wouldn't even need to spend an action to change their mission. Just get in touch with them.

Just have a reasonable expectation for what they can get done. Keep in mind that each tech-priest has a command limit of 20 CP, and can't split their attention the way Vita can. They can't independently build things (well they can, but slowly), but if you captured the ship, put ten tech-priests on it with a few thousand combat bots they could probably keep it running just to the stations you liked and start uplifting them or something over the course of 50 or so years.
10 is enough to operate the ship and have it go places, per this. That's all we need for evac, and thousands of bots works for forcing a population off of a failing station - or forcing their way on to effect repairs to save the station if it's feasible to do so.


Also, I would like to reiterate that I am not suggesting uplift, because I have been mistaken as suggesting uplift by like, 6 different people, and I expect it to happen again. :(



Anyways, the "max stealth" plan I've been describing recently probably wouldn't have techpriests board such a station though. Abandoned ones are safer to do - there's thousands of the things, so their temporary visit would be very difficult to pick out, and the fact they're there at the moment easy to hide until trouble blows over.

Diplomacy with stations in general can be done with humanized bots and telepresence.

To sum it up? I'm saying that the station failure situation is one where, if there is risk of failures in the next 20 years, there is very low hanging fruit for saving many thousands of lives, without much risk to our techpriests, and while still returning to denva this turn.
 
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Yep. Not "fix all stations", but "fix some stations". I said abandoned ones because there's nobody to negotiate with - we can revive them for much, much cheaper than 250 BP. Food aid is effectively why we could choose to consolidate on existing stations in addition to any empty ones we fix.

No contradiction with what we agreed on yesterday at all

So like, in the future, if you think I've somehow done a complete 180 on a core point that we've both agreed to, particularly a core point that I've reaffirmed multiple times on the very same page, you might want to double check.

I mean, how much cheaper? If it's a 40% discount, then it'll cost 150 BP, which means we could fix... two stations, per build action. That really doesn't seem worth the investment, given all the other problems. Are you expecting a 90% discount, or something? That seems unlikely to me, but again, we can see what Neablis has to say about it. Also remember, stations that failed a long time ago are probably in real bad shape, and will thus be more expensive to repair, not less.

And I still don't understand what exactly you're getting at. It constantly seems to change - sometimes we're leaving tech priests for uplift, sometimes to bootstrap industry, sometimes to make food, sometimes to evacuate stations... Maybe I'm confusing you with other people? If you could post, like, specific plans with specific lists of actions, that might help.

This, though, is a fantastic point and touches on some of the information I'm waiting for from Neablis - namely, the question I pinged him for about if we can tell if there have been recent station failures, or if there are imminent ones. One of my unstated assumptions is that some may go from "in disrepair, but working" to "soon to fail" abruptly, which is the kind of thing having some techpriests behind keeping watch would cover for, but Vita can probably tell what's at risk of that too.

Having tech priests keep watch is itself iffy - if nothing else, these stations are scattered throughout the asteroid belt, which means there's a speed of light delay. If it takes twenty minutes for the light from a station to reach an observer, then even if they react immediately, that still means the people on that station would need to survive it's failure for twenty minutes - and then probably considerably more than twenty minutes for the shuttles to reach them. We could sump a bunch of spy satellites everywhere, using the ubiquitous soft scifi inner system FTL comms? Those are supposed to be for spying on planets though, and that sounds expensive, so, yet another problem.

We'll just have to see. As for techpriests being behind to handle it:
10 is enough to operate the ship and have it go places, per this. That's all we need for evac, and thousands of bots works for forcing a population off of a failing station - or forcing their way on to effect repairs to save the station if it's feasible to do so.

The "max stealth" plan I've been describing recently probably wouldn't have techpriests board such a station though. Abandoned ones are safer to do - there's thousands of the things, so their temporary visit would be very difficult to pick out, and the fact they're there at the moment easy to hide until trouble blows over.

Diplomacy with stations in general can be done with humanized bots and telepresence.

To sum it up? I'm saying that the station failure situation is one where, if there is risk of failures in the next 20 years, there is very low hanging fruit for saving many thousands of lives, without much risk to our techpriests, and while still returning to denva this turn.

Well they'd also need to handle the bots, and whatever sensor network is required for checking for failing stations, assuming we can even see that from the outside. And the shuttles for the actual evacuation... And also whatever interference appears, which might be nothing, or it might be something. And then there's the question of unknown unknowns, which they'd have comparatively few resources for dealing with.

I just don't think this fruit is particularly juicy *or* low hanging.

Some very basic plans from my end:

[] Straight back to Denva
-[] Travel back to Denva
-[] 2x Diplomacy: Negotiate industry rights on Denva Primus, or failing that, Denva Secundus. Start organizing the Stellar Ascendancy, and prepping it for humanitarian and defensive missions.
-[] Construction: Start industrial scaling.

[] Denva & Research
-[] Travel back to Denva
-[] Diplomacy: Negotiate industry rights on Denva Primus, or failing that, Denva Secundus. Start sending out feelers for organizing the stellar federation, but don;t push too hard on it yet.
-[] 2x Research: Work on warp comms & preparation for doing demonology.

[] Caldereth & Denva
-[] Travel to Caldereth & explore it.
-[] Travel to Denva
-[] 2x Diplomacy: Negotiate industry rights on Denva Primus, or failing that, Denva Secundus. Start organizing the Stellar Ascendancy, and prepping it for humanitarian and defensive missions.
 
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And I still don't understand what exactly you're getting at. It constantly seems to change - sometimes we're leaving tech priests for uplift, sometimes to bootstrap industry, sometimes to make food, sometimes to evacuate stations... Maybe I'm confusing you with other people? If you could post, like, specific plans with specific lists of actions, that might help.
I apologize - like I said earlier on, I was trying to do more of my workshopping here, so I flitted from a few different approaches. Uplift/industry bootstrapping... That was an early one, from when I expected to still do the rest of the circuit. You convinced me that that wasn't going to happen at any meaningful scale, and that's about when I decided "okay, we need to go back to Denva this turn".

After that though, I settled on the 1r 2c 1t action spread. I gave a hypothetical research list yesterday - the one with improved passive stealth. Never did construction since we never got numbers for how much building something with mechanized AG could take, and likewise without info on food output I shifted focus to discussing what was unambiguously something that could be only be done by having a responder on the scene, regardless of industry: evacs.

The 1r 2c 1t ideas all had the same basic approach:

1. Set up some people who can work here while we leave for denva and build up industry there. Denva will end the crisis here, while the people we leave behind do the low investment high impact stuff like evac and food aid until then.
2. Research and build what they need to do the work (probably including mech ag, for food at scale)
3. Use slack to research other priorities, which I've largely taken to mean "make the techpriests doing this work safer", which is where the stealth plan came from.

I call station evacuations a low hanging fruit because we've already done the work acquiring an in-system asset that can do it this turn, and one properly fixed up station with mech ag tech could hold the refugee populations of multiple evacuated ones. 2 or 3 fixed up stations would... well, they'd almost certainly be enough to cover for every evac that will be needed until Denva gets here.

And that's tens of thousands of lives saved.

Well they'd also need to handle the bots, and whatever sensor network is required for checking for failing stations, assuming we can even see that from the outside. And the shuttles for the actual evacuation... And also whatever interference appears, which might be nothing, or it might be something. And then there's the question of unknown unknowns, which they'd have comparatively few resources for dealing with.

I just don't think this fruit is particularly juicy *or* low hanging.
One of the earlier bits I realized was that if we go back to denva this turn, we can just... get more tech priests after we've finished this turn's research, but before next turn's starts. The exact number needed for operations here is unimportant, basically.

On paper, we'd lose nothing if we plopped down a full 40 here - and we could always pick them back up later on the way to somewhere else.

So yeah, that's low hanging fruit - provided we go back to denva immediately after setting them up.
 
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I apologize - like I said earlier on, I was trying to do more of my workshopping here, so I flitted from a few different approaches. Uplift/industry bootstrapping... That was an early one, from when I expected to still do the rest of the circuit. You convinced me that that wasn't going to happen at any meaningful scale, and that's about when I decided "okay, we need to go back to Denva this turn".

Ah, okay, gotcha. In that case, yeah, more explicit descriptions of what you wanted to do, and when you were changing your mind about what you wanted to do, would be nice.

After that though, I settled on the 1r 2c 1t action spread. I gave a hypothetical research list yesterday - the one with improved passive stealth. Never did construction since we never got numbers for how much building something with mechanized AG could take, and likewise without info on food output I shifted focus to discussing what was unambiguously something that could be only be done by having a responder on the scene, regardless of industry: evacs.

The 1r 2c 1t ideas all had the same basic approach:

1. Set up some people who can work here while we leave for denva and build up industry there
2. Research and build what they need to do the work (probably including mech ag, for food at scale)
3. Use slack to research other priorities, which I've largely taken to mean "make the techpriests doing this work safer", which is where the stealth plan came from.

I call station evacuations a low hanging fruit because we've already done the work acquiring an in-system asset that can do it this turn, and one properly fixed up station with mech ag tech could hold the refugee populations of multiple evacuated ones. 2 or 3 fixed up stations would... well, they'd almost certainly be enough to cover for every evac that will be needed until Denva gets here.

And that's tens of thousands of lives saved.

Tens of thousands for three actions is... Honestly not that great? I dunno, I think we could accomplish much higher elsewhere doing other things. And I don't think we can achieve tens of thousands here in any case.

Like, we're dealing with hundreds of stations with a couple thousand apiece on them. If we take the higher part of that range, and go with 5,000 per station, then we'd need to have 4 stations fail, and then catch every one of them and evacuate every single inhabitant. And not have any other additional costs in the process, like the people getting into fights and murdering/getting murdered on the new stations they get sent to. I don't think that many stations would fail in 20 years, and if they did I don't think we could catch them all and evacuate everyone, and if we did I don't think we could prevent this from causing new problems in the stations they were evacuated to, potentially even getting more people killed in the long run.

As for what we can accomplish with two construction actions and a research action... Well, your tech shopping list fits in that, yeah:

50 RP - Improved Passive Stealth
150 RP - Mechanized Agriculture
50 RP - Remote Organic-Machine control
25 RP - Basic Stealth Shuttles (blueprint) (Probably same cost for designing improved version instead?)
25 RP - Speculative cost of mass food production building (blueprint)

I'm not super keen on setting up a plan as being conditional on two to three die rolls, with significant penalties on failure? Like, if we get a nat 1 on diplomacy to use Denva Primus, we can probably still fall back to Denva secundus, given our long history with them. A nat 1 on any of the three techs here would probably scupper this plan. To add to that, it's not entirely clear what we can build with 700 BP here. I suppose that's another thing we have to wait for Neablis to get back to us on. If we want to make major changes here on that budget, we'd really need to find a good pivot point and throw our whole weight against it... Not impossible, but not a small ask, either.

Oh, for actions to consider, there's also 'Stop in Ascalon to scan the webgate'. We'd need Empathy at Range for that, and I'm not sure if we can do it in addition to travelling to Denva in a single action?
 
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First off Drukhari don't do world destruction, not in the same way as other factions. Instead they sometimes steal worlds close enough to a Webway for their own gains.

Dark Eldar usually don't do world destruction, because from their perspective they're not actually fighting the rest of the universe, they're farming them. They have essentially no territory that they actually care about outside of the webway, which means the only factions that are even potentially a threat to them are other Eldar, and for all that they prey on craftworlders relatively frequently, none of the Eldar factions are exactly in a state of total war with them. Probably because the Commorrites would win that fight and they all know it, unless the Craftworlders did something crazy like sneaking in and then using psykery to try and just unmake the webway segments that comprise the dark city.

So no, we don't need to worry about a Dark Eldar exterminatus, right up until we prove ourselves an actual threat. Say, by gaining access to the webway. At which point, their supreme overlord has advanced stealth technology and man-portable singularity weapons and an easy willingness to use them to make his enemies disappear.

It's not an urgent problem, it's likely to be a long time before it even has the potential to come up. I still consider it something to be aware of when considering long-term things like "Will we ever actually have the technology to seriously secure a static position against the sort of enemies we're eventually likely to have, by which I mean ones with webway access, stealth technologies, and singularity weapons."
 
Like, we're dealing with hundreds of stations with a couple thousand apiece on them. If we take the higher part of that range, and go with 5,000 per station, then we'd need to have 4 stations fail, and then catch every one of them and evacuate every single inhabitant. And not have any other additional costs in the process, like the people getting into fights and murdering/getting murdered on the new stations they get sent to. I don't think that many stations would fail in 20 years, and if they did I don't think we could catch them all and evacuate everyone, and if we did I don't think we could prevent this from causing new problems in the stations they were evacuated to, potentially even getting more people killed in the long run.
The thing about evacuations is that while some of the refugees may die because of stupid things like fighting each other, all of them die if they aren't evacuated from a station when it fails. Beating inaction is trivial.

Thousands of bots and mass food aid and our current diplomacy will do a lot to prevent stupid infighting too. Carrots and sticks aplenty.

How many stations are at risk of failure in the next 20 years is one of those things we're waiting for information on. The core premise though is that these are lives that can only be saved by having somebody doing that work right now - first responders and reconstruction are separate for a reason.

You need both for an effective disaster/humanitarian crisis response.


As for nat 1s... Well, every plan is subject to that risk, but neablis would presumably let us reorient if it actually broke the plan entirely.

Also, this isn't bongo, the only thing I think we need nat 1-grade insurance for is avoiding tech-priests getting captured, but I've gone into how I think I that can be achieved. 2nd gen passive stealth is there for extra insurance, we wanted it anyways too, but I maintain good opsec can be had even if we get turbo unlucky and fail to get it.

"What if nat 1" is just something you have to accept most of the time. Sometimes we'll just fail to bad luck - but that applies to "travel to denva on first action" plans too.
 
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The thing about evacuations is that while some of them may die because of stupid things like fighting, if they aren't evacuated at all, all of them die. Beating inaction is trivial.

Thousands of bots and mass food aid and our current diplomacy will do a lot to prevent stupid infighting too. Carrots and sticks aplenty.

How many stations are at risk of failure in the next 20 years is one of those things we're waiting for information on. The core premise though is that these are lives that can only be saved by having somebody doing that work right now - first responders and reconstruction are separate for a reason.

You need both for an effective disaster/humanitarian crisis response.


As for nat 1s... Well, every plan is subject to that risk, but neablis would presumably let us reorient if it actually broke the plan entirely.

Also, this isn't bongo, the only thing I thibk we need nat 1-grade insurance for is avoiding tech-priests getting captured, but I've gone into how I think I that can be achieved. 2nd gen passive stealth is there for extra insurance, but I maintain good opsec can be had without it.

"What if nat 1" is just something you have to accept most of the time. Sometimes we'll just fail to bad luck - but that applies to "travel to denva on first action" plans too.

We're not measuring against inaction though, we're measuring against 'what if we spent those actions on something else'. And there are a lot of 'something elses' that we could be spending them on.

As for nat 1's, it's not just the possibility, but how many possibilities, and how bad it would be if they happened. A nat 1 in Denva would leave us chewing feet and digging our way out of a diplomatic hole, a nat 1 here could potentially get our people killed and/or expose us to difficult new long term problems. And we'd be rolling a lot more dice here than we would in Denva.

Also, again, remember the possibility of unknown unknowns. Always something to worry about, yes, but if we leave a stay behind force here then we'd be a lot more vulnerable to that sort of thing, than if we didn't.
 
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