Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

[F0lkL0re]

Yeah I specifically deprioritized that, and told her to wait a bit.

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I think that the bonus for giving Cia a new weapon is for this turn only but I could be wrong.

As I said there should be some sort of bonus for getting Cia all three basic bits of psytech so here's a plan to do that.

-[] Plan: kiting out Cia
-[] [repair bay] [Free] Fix incoming damage from warp traversal
-[] [Free][DATA] Orks. What are they?
-[] Research X 3
--[] Basic Spaceship Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Machine Spirit Chaos resistance (100 RP)
--[] Basic Psychic Amplification Devices (100 RP)
--[] Basic Psychic Suppression Devices (150 RP)
--[] Basic Psychic weapons (150 RP)
-[] Explore: Vorthryn
-[] Anexa's and the Tech Gremlins Research
--[] Improved Gellar Fields (90 RP)
--[] Basic Cognition Filter: (250 RP) 22RP overflow
-[] Victan passive action: Counterespionage & Alliance-building
-[] Cia Active Psyker improvement


Thoughts anyone?

 

[Aineko]

True, I think that is a good argument for getting it sooner rather than later.

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I really don't want us to sink turns of research into freaking out about a corner chaos threat again.

I mean, a full dive in transhuman cybertoys would be fun, but would continue to not address our many material concerns.

And if we must, how about addressing the fear of personal Chaos attack with personal psy-shields instead?

 

[Angle]

Man, there is absolutely no agreement on whats important, here. Maybe someone should go through and put together a list of the things people care about, so we at least know what to argue over...?

I think that the bonus for giving Cia a new weapon is for this turn only but I could be wrong.

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I think it is, yeah... I'm still not super sold on it, but okay, I could see waiting a turn for something else in order to get it...? She's asking for a fairly expensive present here though, and one that's really not very useful IMO. I mean, I sympathize with her, but goddamn, I'm not happy about it. -_-

 

[Karnax626]

Yeah I specifically deprioritized that, and told her to wait a bit. We have other stuff we really should be doing first.

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Honestly between the fact that Cia's going to get into more fights eventually and the bonus it gives her, it feels like we may as well make this our first foray into constructing actual psytech. It's something we'd be getting to anyway, so this just moves it up the priority list.
EDIT: Apparently it's even the option which leads to psychically attuned armour, which would be neat. Though I still want to do Improved Articulation this turn as well.

 

[F0lkL0re]

I think it is, yeah... I'm still not super sold on it, but okay, I could see waiting a turn for something else in order to get it...? She's asking for a fairly expensive present, here, and one that's really not very useful IMO. I mean, I sympathize with her, but goddamn, I'm not happy about it. -_-

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Well like I said lets give her the full kit so that she's capable of throwing fireballs as well as swording things and will stop exploding as much.

 

[Nightlord256]

And if we must, how about addressing the fear of personal Chaos attack with personal psy-shields instead?

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I think that would be an excellent compromise.

Man, there is absolutely no agreement on whats important, here. Maybe someone should go through and put together a list, so we at least know what to argue over...?

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Lots of mid to high priority goals but with none rising to the mandatory level will do that. Also a longer moratorium let's people explore more niche ideas as consensus develops.

Rather than a list of techs, I think it might be helpful to start a list of goals/objectives. If we can get a rough agreement on a few of those I think the techs will fall in line quick enough.

-[] Plan: kiting out Cia

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A bit too heavy a focus on Cia for my taste, but it seems like a great plan for that focus. If you are focusing a whole turn on her I'd drop some of the other techs to add Basic Pyromantic Understanding and maybe Personal Psy Shields as well.

 

[Aineko]

Well like I said lets give her the full kit so that she's capable of throwing fireballs as well as swording things and will stop exploding as much.

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Don't hate it, but I think if the goal is helping Cia quickly it might be better to do the weapons plus pyromantic understanding over the other psy-techs.

 

[F0lkL0re]

Don't hate it, but I think if the goal is helping Cia quickly it might be better to do the weapons plus pyromantic understanding over the other psy-techs.

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Right now we don't have a proper grounding in basic psytech to gain the full benefit of pyromantic understanding since we would be designing say pyromantic amplifiers without ever having designed a basic one before and getting all three done should heavily discount it.

 

[Karnax626]

Actually, what would people think of spending a Construction action this turn?
350BP would give us enough for 45 personal void shield generators (one for everyone outside of armour) and 125 BP of nebulous Trade Goods. We saw in this update that having 300 floating BP helped with the eldar diplomacy, though I'm not sure if we can store it long term without a Cargo Bay.

 

[Picio]

Our shuttles could use void shield generators too.

 

[Aineko]

Right now we don't have a proper grounding in basic psytech to gain the full benefit of pyromantic understanding since we would be designing say pyromantic amplifiers without ever having designed a basic one before and getting all three done should heavily discount it.

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It only costs 100 RP. It cannot be discounted all that much and is already tied for the cheapest psytech tech.

Also, the most pressing interest is "potentially unlock new kinds of actions or narrative options for Cia", though letting Cia's first custom-made sword be a custom-made pyromancy-specific sword is also a plus.

 

[Haganeko]

I think it's a little of both, getting more powerful sensors would let us scan through the hologram from a farther distance and make it less obvious to any Eldar that pop through what we are doing.

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So it might be worth it just scanning them with one more tech, yeah?

I'm strongly considering stopping at denva and then checking out their other immediate neighbors right now, for a couple of reasons:

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Yeah I specifically deprioritized that, and told her to wait a bit. We have other stuff we really should be doing first.

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I think that the bonus for giving Cia a new weapon is for this turn only but I could be wrong.

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I think it is, yeah... I'm still not super sold on it, but okay, I could see waiting a turn for something else in order to get it...? She's asking for a fairly expensive present here though, and one that's really not very useful IMO. I mean, I sympathize with her, but goddamn, I'm not happy about it. -_-

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Personally, I think Cia, our crew member, getting 150 RP worth of stuff is cheaper and more important than Denva getting to get the fruits of our research a few turns early, especially when there is little reason to believe they are under imminent threat.

In the narrative, we've already told Cia to wait a few years. I think having her wait five more is not good, especially when she makes valuable contributions and we've also invested a lot into our other crew members.

I also think we must resist the urge to go back to Denva every couple of turns/every time we learn about a threat. They've lasted a while before we arrived, and they were much more prepared when we left them than when we found them. Plus, they are not a home base. Not anymore, since we divested our stuff in the planet.

That said, Alternative Plan!

As others have said, we do know tech that has the potential to discount it, and I have pushed for researching them in the past.

I thought our current problem was our sensors were too weak to pierce the inactive gate's hologram cover without getting literally next to it, not that their basic range is too small. Something that a single tech would solve.


Even Demonology with Bongo has become cheaper with some research. Plus, see the examples that have been quoted.

True! They're still kind of expensive, but we would need them if we want Anexa on Demonology. Maybe let's get stuff like Machine Spirit Chaos Resistance and see if that makes the filters cheaper?

This doesn't include psytech weaponry for Cia.

My suggestion:
[] Plan: Shopping Spree
-[] Research x3
--[] Basic Spaceship Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Basic Active Stealth (75 RP)
--[] Basic Psychic Weapons (150 RP)
--[] Basic Pyromantic Understanding (100 RP)
--[] Faith is my Shield? (75 RP)
--[] Improved Gellar Fields (90 RP)
--[] Scrapcode Immunity (100 RP)
--[] Overflow: Psychic Tripwires (25 RP)
--[] Overflow2: Improved Armor Articulation (50 RP)
--[] Overflow3: Machine Spirit Chaos Resistance (100 RP)
-[] Explore: Vorthryn
-[] Victan: Passive Diplomacy & Espionage
-[] Anexa: Faith is My Shield?
-[] Tech-Priests: Improved Gellar Fields
-[] Cia: Active Improvement
[] Cia looks: white and green armour, after Vita, with golden filigree, after Anexa. And some decorative scorching, after Cia.
@Neablis is "have Victan teach Vita more about the Eldar" an action?

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[] Plan: Gate Snooping
-[] Research x3
--[] Basic Spaceship Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Basic Active Stealth (75 RP)
--[] Basic Psychic Weapons (150 RP)
--[] Basic Pyromantic Understanding (100 RP)
--[] Faith is my Shield? (75 RP)
--[] Better Sensors are Just Physics (200 RP)
--[] Overflow: Scrapcode Immunity (100 RP)
--[] Overflow2: Improved Gellar Fields (90 RP)
--[] Overflow3: Psychic Tripwires (25 RP)
-[] Explore: Scan the Gate from orbit. If nothing comes through & no tripwires are detected, do light, passive scanning with a probe. If caught/confronted, explain we were hoping to leave a message but weren't sure how to ensure it only got to "good" Eldar. Produce a comm packet putting a bounty on more info about Xylarys.
-[] Victan: Passive Diplomacy & Espionage//Covering our butts if detected at the Gate
-[] Anexa: Faith is My Shield?
-[] Tech-Priests: Better Sensors are Just Physics
-[] Cia: Active Improvement
[] Cia looks: white and green armour, after Vita, with golden filigree, after Anexa. And some decorative scorching, after Cia.

Could sacrifice Improved Basic Stealth, Faith is my Shield, and Pyro Understanding to save an action and either get to Vorthryn or do a Diplomacy.

Additionally: for Plan: Shopping Spree, how do we feel about trimming one layer of the Vault to install the Warp Lab so we can do Immaterium Understanding later? Scrapcode Immunity could make up for it, no?

It only costs 100 RP. It cannot be discounted all that much and is already tied for the cheapest psytech tech.

Also, the most pressing interest is "potentially unlock new kinds of actions or narrative options for Cia", though letting Cia's first custom-made sword be a custom-made pyromancy-specific sword is also a plus.

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QM has also stated that Pyromancy Understanding will help make Cia's rolls easier, which is something we clearly need with her exploding herself.

 

[Angle]

Lots of mid to high priority goals but with none rising to the mandatory level will do that. Also a longer moratorium let's people explore more niche ideas as consensus develops.

Rather than a list of techs, I think it might be helpful to start a list of goals/objectives. If we can get a rough agreement on a few of those I think the techs will fall in line quick enough.

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Hmm. Okay, point. Let's see:

* Faster Tech Progress: I think we need to continue scaling up our ability to progress technologically. To that end: M.S. Design and a visit to Denva to get more tech priests.

* Enhance Denva: I think we need to continue boosting Denva so they have more to offer us. To that end, pick up M.S. Design and visit to give it to them, along with our other research and our info about the Eldar and the nuns.

* Begin researching stealth: I think we should get started on stealth research, both for sensors and so we can put in hidden listening posts in the systems we visit. Probably the most flexible thing in terms of priority, but the sooner we start on it the better.

* Continue developing countermeasures to warp threats, and expanding our knowledge of the warp: Fairly self explanatory. Psy Tripwires, Scrapcode Immunity, Faith Studies.

* Cia Development: Help Cia develop her psychic powers. Faith Studies, Basic Pyromancy, Other Psytech. I only was going to do the first, but I could see cutting stealth to get the second as well.

* Prepare Cia to fight stuff: Psy Weapons, Improved Armor. Not a priority for me, but it would make her happy. Awfully expensive, though.

Anyone have anything else they'd add?

 

[Nightlord256]

Actually, what would people think of spending a Construction action this turn?
350BP would give us enough for 45 personal void shield generators (one for everyone outside of armour) and 125 BP of nebulous Trade Goods. We saw in this update that having 300 floating BP helped with the eldar diplomacy, though I'm not sure if we can store it long term without a Cargo Bay.

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I wouldn't be opposed and @Picio has a good point about shielded shuttles. It would come down to what we spent the rest of the turn on.

@Angle et al, here is a quick list of objectives and where I rate them on priority.

High Priority (within 3 turns)

• Cia improvement
• Bongo/Demonology
• Sensors & Stealth

Medium Priority (within 6 turns)

• Improving Research RP/Throughput
• Starship Design
• Navigator Bean
• Combat Improvements
• Psyshielding

Low Priority (when we get to it)

• Improving Industry BP production
• AI / Automation
• General Warp Travel

Since we have so much time, rather than toss plans around it might be helpful to pull back and align on what we want to do.

I'll be off for the rest of the night for tabletop games, talk to you folks later.

 

[Angle]

I also think we must resist the urge to go back to Denva every couple of turns/every time we learn about a threat. They've lasted a while before we arrived, and they were much more prepared when we left them than when we found them. Plus, they are not a home base. Not anymore, since we divested our stuff in the planet.

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The threat is only a side thing - I mainly want more tech priests and to share our new techs and M.S. Design with them.

 

[LightLan]

Additionally: for Plan: Shopping Spree, how do we feel about trimming one layer of the Vault to install the Warp Lab so we can do Immaterium Understanding later? Scrapcode Immunity could make up for it, no?

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I refuse to trim that Vault until that daemon is properly bound.

The threat is only a side thing - I mainly want more tech priests and to share our new techs and M.S. Design with them.

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We've only been gone for 2 turns, 10 years. It's much too early to go back.

 

[Angle]

We've only been gone for 2 turns, 10 years. It's much too early to go back.

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I mean, if there are benefits there are benefits. And if we don;t do it now it gets much less convenient - jump two systems there and back would be really painful. So, it's either now, or after we finish with our current exploratory trip, which would be probably at least 3 turns away, or another 15 years.

 

[Prime 2.0]

Actually, what would people think of spending a Construction action this turn?
350BP would give us enough for 45 personal void shield generators (one for everyone outside of armour) and 125 BP of nebulous Trade Goods. We saw in this update that having 300 floating BP helped with the eldar diplomacy, though I'm not sure if we can store it long term without a Cargo Bay.

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If we're going to do construction, we should go back to Denva to do it.

I feel I should stress that ensuring Denva is equipped to resist bad actors from the next door webway gate is just one part of why I'd like to go back and explore their neighbors - it's also because we've... well, we've basically already accomplished the objective of the circuit. The eldar gave us maps and information about threats from this side of Denva.

That's why we went out here, because we didn't know what was on this side of the map to worry about. Now we do.

A day later a transmission makes its way to you from the depths of the Oladeer ring system. You open it with some trepidation to see the unhelmeted face of Meryvha once more. She's wearing a slight smile, and speaks in a pleasant tone. "Attached to this message are a series of ways of the void, as well as the location of the stronghold of the Bleeding Web in the Valtrix system of subsector Chrysal. I cannot guarantee Xylaris' presence there, but she returns often to trade for goods that please her and amuse herself with the little empire of pirates she's built."

Her mouth twists in an expression of disgust, then smooths. "If you wish for further trade beyond the whims of my people and further constructive taluclu, then I bid you travel to the system of Krynalis' Tears in sub-sector Myralis Shroud. When challenged, send the response 'A Stray Tear of Flame Returns to the Mountain,' and you shall be able to trade, and given more instructions."

There's a pause, and Meryvha seems torn between saying something more. "These are days of shenestra and terror, and a time for all who oppose Ruin to share a common cause. Threats abound, and you should be cautious of the spreading greenskin menace from Dornath, as well as the forces of ruin beyond Zerak and from the direction of the Eye of Terror. If you should wish shelter against this storm, you would be considered to join our Menliadeng forces."

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Arguably, we now know more about this side of the map than any other! So there just isn't a compelling reason to explore farther in this direction in particular anymore. We can explore anywhere to about the same expected benefits, probably better.

So, given that, why not stay closer to our home base where we can use their manufacturing? Everybody's so worried about material threats, well you need material production to address any of that.

That we also have the old 400 HP vault there we can reuse for the warp lab means we can then jump way ahead on warp matters too. And at half the cost it would take to equip our own ship with one, we can put an advanced tech lab on Denva with which to do reverse engineering and get an extra boon for our trouble - and then just research the eldar craft there the next time we're in-system, which instead of being over 50 years afterwards would be closer to 10 or 15.

 

[Haganeko]

The threat is only a side thing - I mainly want more tech priests and to share our new techs and M.S. Design with them.

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There's also diminishing returns on the human simulation thing. This is effectively spending an action or more (travel plus diplomacy) and maybe a boon to get fresh mechanicus who may not integrate as well as the current ones just for +8 RP a turn.

This is something else we should discuss: with the priests' boost and Anexa's level-ups, our research now offers significantly reduced return on the second and third actions in a turn. It may be worth it to start considering 2 research actions a round, or even just one, soon.

The first action is +312 RP. The second is +100% cost, +64% benefit. The third is +50% cost, +39% benefit. Which is a better ROI, but only because the second action diluted the boost.

In other words, Anexa and the Priests help most on single-research turns.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

The only thing I'm really interested in is going to a new system within this turn. While investigating the webgate would be interesting, it feels like something we could come back to on our way back to Denva when we've already researched a number of sensor techs, or even do as a second action, so one Explore to check the webgate, one to go to Vorthryn, and then two research actions.

Also, we really need to do those ship cramming techs. Like, it's vitally important we get those done ASAP. The sooner we do them, the sooner we can start using our repair bays to refit the ship to make more space, and the sooner we can fit new modules in without making sacrifices. It's 100% the most useful tech right now.

 

[Aineko]

I mean, if there are benefits there are benefits. And if we don;t do it now it gets much less convenient - jump two systems there and back would be really painful. So, it's either now, or after we finish with our current exploratory trip, which would be probably at least 3 turns away, or another 15 years.

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Why do you say jumping two systems would be more painful? Our FTL travel goes up to three in one action.

We have never traveled more than 1 at a time, so we don't know if that causes a lot of shield damage.

 

[Angle]

@Angle et al, here is a quick list of objectives and where I rate them on priority.

High Priority (within 3 turns)

• Cia improvement
• Bongo/Demonology
• Sensors & Stealth

Medium Priority (within 6 turns)

• Improving Research RP/Throughput
• Starship Design
• Navigator Bean
• Combat Improvements
• Psyshielding

Low Priority (when we get to it)

• Improving Industry BP production
• AI / Automation
• General Warp Travel

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Okay, let me see.

Immediate Priority (Now!)

• Visit Denva, Share tech
• Improving Research RP/Throughput

High Priority (within 3 turns)

• Cia Development
• Warp Travel Protections
• Psyshielding
• Sensors & Stealth
• Warp Knowledge

Medium Priority (within 6 turns)

• Starship Design
• Bongo/Demonology
• Combat Improvements
• Faster Warp Travel
• Cia Fighting Ability
• General Exploration

Low Priority (when we get to it)

• Improving Industry BP production
• AI / Automation
• Navigator Bean

Why do you say jumping two systems would be more painful? Our FTL travel goes up to three in one action.

We have never traveled more than 1 at a time, so we don't know if that causes a lot of shield damage.

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I think it's pretty clear that jumping more systems means more damage. Main question to me is whether the damage scales linearly, or super-linearly. Either way, we want better protections, which means geller field, scrapcode immunity, bongo binding, and the like.

 

[Aineko]

* Cia Development: Help Cia develop her psychic powers. Faith Studies, Basic Pyromancy, Other Psytech. I only was going to do the first, but I could see cutting stealth to get the second as well.

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"Cia has requested that you research Basic Psychic weapons. It'll make her feel better. And might give a bonus to her next level-up roll."

That seems like a really appealing thing to fulfill, to me.

 

[LightLan]

This is something else we should discuss: with the priests' boost and Anexa's level-ups, our research now offers significantly reduced return on the second and third actions in a turn. It may be worth it to start considering 2 research actions a round, or even just one, soon.

The first action is +312 RP. The second is +100% cost, +64% benefit. The third is +50% cost, +39% benefit. Which is a better ROI, but only because the second action diluted the boost.

In other words, Anexa and the Priests help most on single-research turns.

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Might be worth it to spend 2 explore/2 research, get eyes on both Caldereth and Vorthryn?

 

[Varzifar]

Considering our improved Sensors we could try exploring two Systems in a turn and double back for any POI. The assumtion that we spend ~3 turns per system heavily depends on how we roll. For Ascalon we rolled 4 4 6 5 3 2 which is pretty good, a sum of 24 or above has a chance of ~25%. If we roll worse we might find systems with no/few POI's allowing us to depart sooner.