"Cia has requested that you research Basic Psychic weapons. It'll make her feel better. And might give a bonus to her next level-up roll."

That seems like a really appealing thing to fulfill, to me.

Yeah, but it's *expensive*. We could get, like, two to three other techs for that price. And they'd be techs that, like, actually did stuff, too. -_-

I mean, I'm being a little unfair there... But not a lot. It'll be several turns before Cia actually gets to *use* that cool sword, most likely. Seems like a huge waste, IMO.
 
I think it's pretty clear that jumping more systems means more damage. main question to me is whether the damage scales linearly, or super-linearly. Either way, we want better protections, which means geller field, scrapcode immunity, bongo binding, and the like.
That seems like a tremendous question-beg. Linearly or superlinearly? Not even considering it might be less than linear at all? Especially while you are including Bongo in your concerns, who we already know gradually accumulates power?
 
There's also diminishing returns on the human simulation thing. This is effectively spending an action or more (travel plus diplomacy) and maybe a boon to get fresh mechanicus who may not integrate as well as the current ones just for +8 RP a turn.

This is something else we should discuss: with the priests' boost and Anexa's level-ups, our research now offers significantly reduced return on the second and third actions in a turn. It may be worth it to start considering 2 research actions a round, or even just one, soon.

The first action is +312 RP. The second is +100% cost, +64% benefit. The third is +50% cost, +39% benefit. Which is a better ROI, but only because the second action diluted the boost.

In other words, Anexa and the Priests help most on single-research turns.

This feels like a somewhat backwards way to look at things, those are bonuses we get for having crew, not an inherent part of our RP output. Also there are techs we actively cannot trust them with like Daemonology so even from a purely mechanical way this does not work out, comparing apples to oranges.
 
That's why we went out here, because we didn't know what was on this side of the map to worry about. Now we do. There isn't a compelling reason to explore farther in this direction in particular anymore - we can explore anywhere to about the same expected benefits, or better.

So, given that, why not stay closer to our home base where we can use their manufacturing to crash invest? Everybody's so worried about material threats, well you need material production to address any of that.
I think that's where we differ. I don't consider Denva our home base. They're an allied state, and we don't need to baby them or keep checking on them. We go exploring because we're a wayfarer, a wanderer. We have no fixed port, and we shouldn't have any fixed port. Our home base is the Spark, and she's coming with us wherever we go.

I wouldn't be opposed and @Picio has a good point about shielded shuttles. It would come down to what we spent the rest of the turn on.

@Angle et al, here is a quick list of objectives and where I rate them on priority.

High Priority (within 3 turns)
  • Cia improvement
  • Bongo/Demonology
  • Sensors & Stealth
Medium Priority (within 6 turns)
  • Improving Research RP/Throughput
  • Starship Design
  • Navigator Bean
  • Combat Improvements
  • Psyshielding
Low Priority (when we get to it)
  • Improving Industry BP production
  • AI / Automation
  • General Warp Travel
Since we have so much time, rather than toss plans around it might be helpful to pull back and align on what we want to do.

I'll be off for the rest of the night for tabletop games, talk to you folks later.

Okay, let me see.

Immediate Priority (Now!)
  • Visit Denva, Share tech
  • Improving Research RP/Throughput
High Priority (within 3 turns)
  • Cia Development
  • Warp Travel Protections
  • Psyshielding
  • Sensors & Stealth
  • Warp Knowledge
Medium Priority (within 6 turns)
  • Starship Design
  • Bongo/Demonology
  • Combat Improvements
  • Faster Warp Travel
  • Cia Fighting Ability
  • General Exploration
Low Priority (when we get to it)
  • Improving Industry BP production
  • AI / Automation
  • Navigator Bean
I think it's pretty clear that jumping more systems means more damage. main question to me is whether the damage scales linearly, or super-linearly. Either way, we want better protections, which means geller field, scrapcode immunity, bongo binding, and the like.
My list:
Immediate
Get Cia her weapon
High Priority
Better stealth and sensors
Automation Tech
Mid priority
Warp Lab/Immaterium Understanding
Demonology
Navigator
Low Priority
Going back to Denva
Chasing the Dark Eldar
Really Good Robotics
Intelligence Coding
 
Yeah, but it's *expensive*. We could get, like, two to three other techs for that price. And they'd be techs that, like, actually did stuff, too. -_-

I mean, I'm being a little unfair there... But not a lot. It'll be several turns before Cia actually gets to *use* that cool sword, most likely. Seems like a huge waste, IMO.
She'll get to immediately use the cool sword to feel better and get a leveling bonus.

Hopefully it'll be a while before she hits anything with it, yes.
 
Yeah, but it's *expensive*. We could get, like, two to three other techs for that price. And they'd be techs that, like, actually did stuff, too. -_-

I mean, I'm being a little unfair there... But not a lot. It'll be several turns before Cia actually gets to *use* that cool sword, most likely. Seems like a huge waste, IMO.
But I like Vita being characterized as a sucker for her Crew?
Can't resist the puppy eyes :p
 
Navigator, so we can follow up on diplomacy with the Marines and the craft world, our two most likely allies.

I guess my understanding of our short term plan is to explore the next few systems while building up our crew and our research, then returning to Denva and using it boon to build an escort fleet before taking a longer, more directed trip out.

So working backwards, we need ship designs and acubi manufacturing on the turn before Denva, we need the supporting weapons, sensors, and shielding by the turn before that, and I'd like to boost cia and work towards our navigator as a sideline.

I don't think we need cramming, it's easier to just build more hulls than spare the RP. I don't think we need to do more with bongo at the moment, but I do want gellar fields and scrapcode immunity as soon as possible. I don't think we have the time to really harvest all our machine spirit gains before Denva, but that is one of our long term strong suites and I think next trip out we should put our focus there.

We haven't needed a ground army yet so I think that we can put those tech trees on hold, but I do think that we really need Denva to start expanding, and that means having a few blueprints for larger, warp-capable, cruisers and colony builders. Someone that will let them jump to another system and start setting up monitors and void infrastructure, or a port city on a populated planet.

Longer term I want to pursue the junction between AI, psytech, and machine spirits. I'd also like to see about this elf foreign legion thing- it sounds like a good way to get access to farseers and the principles of elf psychic training.
 
Yeah, but it's *expensive*. We could get, like, two to three other techs for that price. And they'd be techs that, like, actually did stuff, too. -_-

I mean, I'm being a little unfair there... But not a lot. It'll be several turns before Cia actually gets to *use* that cool sword, most likely. Seems like a huge waste, IMO.
I am in favor of getting Cia her new sword on the basis that I like her and want her to be happy.
I think that's where we differ. I don't consider Denva our home base. They're an allied state, and we don't need to baby them or keep checking on them. We go exploring because we're a wayfarer, a wanderer. We have no fixed port, and we shouldn't have any fixed port. Our home base is the Spark, and she's coming with us wherever we go.
You may be reading far more into "home base". I call it that because it's where most of the infrastructure we can use is, and it's one boon away from that infrastructure being permanently available to us whenever we're there.

Just, objectively, if we want to do a lot of upgrades, Denva is the best and fastest place to do it. It's not "babying them" to provide them things that are valuable for them militarily when they give us significant rewards in return, you know?

What's good for Denva is usually profitable for Vita. And that 400 BP vault is still there, this is still the fastest way to capitalize on Anexa's super-crit tech on multiple levels... and then we'd get yet more boons for giving them access to that research and the lab itself! We get paid coming and going for doing it there.

So why should we favor going further out in the direction we're going over exploring breadth-first around denva? How would that actually help us, in exchange for losing all those benefits?
 
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Also, we really need to do those ship cramming techs. Like, it's vitally important we get those done ASAP. The sooner we do them, the sooner we can start using our repair bays to refit the ship to make more space, and the sooner we can fit new modules in without making sacrifices. It's 100% the most useful tech right now.
Counterargument: we're not actually using the features our ship already has for the most part, and it's not obvious what features you'd be aiming to add. Make the Spark Better isn't a bad thing, certainly, but I don't see where it changes the game for us either.
 
That seems like a tremendous question-beg. Linearly or superlinearly? Not even considering it might be less than linear at all? Especially while you are including Bongo in your concerns, who we already know gradually accumulates power?

Travelling multiple systems involves jumping in and out of warp repeatedly, as I understand it? So, yeah, that would suggest linear is the minimum - maybe superlinear, if each jump attracts demons that then take a while to disperse.

She'll get to immediately use the cool sword to feel better and get a leveling bonus.

Hopefully it'll be a while before she hits anything with it, yes.

She'll get to practice with it. And the levelling bonus is nice, but without faith studies and or pyromancy, that mostly just makes it harder for her to level further.

But I like Vita being characterized as a sucker for her Crew?
Can't resist the puppy eyes :p

I am in favor of getting Cia her new sword on the basis that I like her and want her to be happy.

Yeah, I'm sympathetic, but I'd really like to be more responsible. There's a lot going on in the galaxy, and we really shouldn't prioritize one persons current happiness quite so much - especially not over her health and her ability to actually make the galaxy a better place. -_-
 
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Yeah, but it's *expensive*. We could get, like, two to three other techs for that price. And they'd be techs that, like, actually did stuff, too. -_-

I mean, I'm being a little unfair there... But not a lot. It'll be several turns before Cia actually gets to *use* that cool sword, most likely. Seems like a huge waste, IMO.

Psychic weapons aren't anything to sniff at. They're tough fucking customers, pretty much ignore the laws of physics, can probably do full damage to manifested daemons too. That we have one psyker to our name is a bottleneck, but she's a hero psyker and we can acquire more in time. Many more once we have psyker genetics and adult genetic engineering.

I think that's where we differ. I don't consider Denva our home base. They're an allied state, and we don't need to baby them or keep checking on them. We go exploring because we're a wayfarer, a wanderer. We have no fixed port, and we shouldn't have any fixed port. Our home base is the Spark, and she's coming with us wherever we go.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly want to play this quest in the style of Homeworld as well, but we ain't exactly on our feet for that yet. The Spark is no mothership, because she cannot be well-used to construct a fleet. We need strong but mobile void build capacity and at least the production of advanced abaci before that can change.

We'll split from Denva in time to wander the galaxy, and we're nearly there, but we are not there and the Spark is not the ship to do it with. I anticipate her being our major secondary once the true mothership can be constructed.
 
I don't think we need cramming, it's easier to just build more hulls than spare the RP.
It's way harder to build more hulls than to spare an of RP...especially while we're exploring.

Remember we don't own an industrial plant anymore. And that we have to spend research for new ship designs.
She'll get to practice with it. And the levelling bonus is nice, but without faith studies and or pyromancy, that mostly just makes it harder for her to level further.
I mean, I'd also throw in the pyromancy, TBH. It's not that expensive.

With 2x research we could get all of Machine Spirit Design (so that next turn we can hopefully see the RP tech behind that), pyromancy studies, and psytech weapons, and still have room for something else.
 
I mean, I'd also throw in the pyromancy, TBH. It's not that expensive.

With 2x research we could get all of Machine Spirit Design (so that next turn we can hopefully see the RP tech behind that), pyromancy studies, and psytech weapons, and still have room for something else.

That doesn't leave a ton of room for:

--[] Basic Spaceship Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Psychic tripwires (25 RP)
--[] Scrapcode Immunity (100 RP)
--[] Faith is my shield? (75 RP)

I guess the stealth ones can wait a turn... And the scrapcode immunity too, prooobably? It's still painful, but okay, I guess it works. The main thing is that means waiting long to get into stealth, which is probably fairly deep, and giving Bongo more time to pull a funni...

I'd be willing to consider leaving MS Design and visiting denva for a later turn, if we trade them out for a double explore action, and prioritize MS Design and going to Denva in a turn or two?
 
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Yeah, but it's *expensive*. We could get, like, two to three other techs for that price. And they'd be techs that, like, actually did stuff, too. -_-

I mean, I'm being a little unfair there... But not a lot. It'll be several turns before Cia actually gets to *use* that cool sword, most likely. Seems like a huge waste, IMO.
It's only expensive compared to the cheapest techs we have. And I'm willing to entertain some cost to ensure the wellbeing of one of our crew members (who are, in a very real way, our base of power. Also: when she needs that sword, she'll need to have it and be trained in it. There may not be time to research and produce it then.
This feels like a somewhat backwards way to look at things, those are bonuses we get for having crew, not an inherent part of our RP output. Also there are techs we actively cannot trust them with like Daemonology so even from a purely mechanical way this does not work out, comparing apples to oranges.
Can we spend their output without spending at least one research action? If not, then we effectively gain it, in a given turn, as a bonus to our first action.
But I like Vita being characterized as a sucker for her Crew?
Can't resist the puppy eyes :p
This, too.
I am in favor of getting Cia her new sword on the basis that I like her and want her to be happy.

You may be reading far more into "home base". I call it that because it's where most of the infrastructure we can use is, and it's one boon away from that infrastructure being permanently available to us whenever we're there.

Just, objectively, if we want to do a lot of upgrades, Denva is the best and fastest place to do it. It's not "babying them" to provide them things that are valuable for them militarily when they give us significant rewards in return, you know?

What's good for Denva is usually profitable for Vita. And that 400 BP vault is still there, this is still the fastest way to capitalize on Anexa's super-crit tech on multiple levels... and then we'd get yet more boons for giving them access to that research and the lab itself! We get paid coming and going for doing it there.

So why should we favor going further out in the direction we're going over exploring breadth-first around denva? How would that actually help us, in exchange for losing all those benefits?
We could go around Denva without going back there yet. I am in favour of not ranging far afield yet (I'll go check the map and edit my plan if that's what it's doing) but I also don't think we should go back to Denva yet.

As for their base... I still think we spend their favour on manufacturing ships and then we can bring a manufacturing base with us.

By the way, one advantage of at least one very large manufacturing ship: much harder to make bigger ships with small ships than the reverse, and a manufacturing ship doesn't have to be manoeuvrable.
Psychic weapons aren't anything to sniff at. They're tough fucking customers, pretty much ignore the laws of physics, can probably do full damage to manifested daemons too. That we have one psyker to our name is a bottleneck, but she's a hero psyker and we can acquire more in time. Many more once we have psyker genetics and adult genetic engineering.



Don't get me wrong, I strongly want to play this quest in the style of Homeworld as well, but we ain't exactly on our feet for that yet. The Spark is no mothership, because she cannot be well-used to construct a fleet. We need strong but mobile void build capacity and at least the production of advanced abaci before that can change.

We'll split from Denva in time to wander the galaxy, and we're nearly there, but we are not there and the Spark is not the ship to do it with. I anticipate her being our major secondary once the true mothership can be constructed.
That's true... but we can make factory ships at Denva when we finally visit at the end of this turn. And then we can declare "my job here is done. Vita awaaaaaaaay" for a while.
 
Well, we are about to travel through the Warp again, so I consider Gellar Fields and Scrapcode Immunity locked in.
The later I am willing to drop, if people vote to get rid of Bongo. (I doubt it's going to happen)
 
It's only expensive compared to the cheapest techs we have. And I'm willing to entertain some cost to ensure the wellbeing of one of our crew members (who are, in a very real way, our base of power. Also: when she needs that sword, she'll need to have it and be trained in it. There may not be time to research and produce it then.

Hmm, point... And I suppose it might make a big difference, if she comes face to face with something nasty she can't just instantly immolate...
 
That doesn't leave a ton of room for:

--[] Basic Spaceship Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Psychic tripwires (25 RP)
--[] Scrapcode Immunity (100 RP)
--[] Faith is my shield? (75 RP)

I guess the stealth ones can wait a turn... And the scrapcode immunity too, prooobably? It's still painful, but okay, I guess it works. The main thing is that means waiting long to get into stealth, which is probably fairly deep, and giving Bongo more time to pull a funni...

I'd be willing to consider leaving MS Design and visiting denva for a later turn, if we trade them out for a double explore action, and prioritise going to Denva in a turn or two?
I don't think you're going to get me on-side for the urgency you have to get back to Denva. The only thing that makes it even slightly appeal is handing over HSI.

For the rest I'm not against stealth but haven't grasped the urgency some people are attaching of a sudden, and I don't actually like Scrapcode Immunity that much as a priority - I'd rather do the Daemonology jump, which is down to 150 RP, and then stop Bongo's chip damage by binding the little jerk.
 
Well, we are about to travel through the Warp again, so I consider Gellar Fields and Scrapcode Immunity locked in.
The later I am willing to drop, if people vote to get rid of Bongo. (I doubt it's going to happen)
IMO our trip to Ascalon proves that we don't need either of those to travel one system through the warp.

I like the Gellar Fields (not as much the Scrapcode, as above) but I think it's completely safe to pick it up after rather than before our next jump if the timing favors that.
 
For Cia to really be useful to us, what does she need?

I'm thinking that's she's our champion, so we should be able to say "take that ship" or "wipe out that army" to her, right?

First up is abilities. We need her skilled, powerful, and familiar with her pyromancy. We need her able to use her gear and fight high-level opponents. This is where we are now, what she is doing.

Second is gear. Armor that boosts her and shields her from psychic attacks or backlash. A personal shield. A psychic booster of some sort to give her strategic level AoE. Ideally some anti-grav valkery wings for mobility. And a sword.

I think the psychic weapon is important. I think that she does think of herself as our weapon, and that makes her feel useful and valued, and she's going to identify REAL hard with the weapon that we, an ancient from the dawn of history, make personally for her. So I do want us to do it, because she asked, and because it is going to be an interesting character moment for us to work with her creating a tech, like we do with Anexa.

Last is support. An army to back her up and hold ground, air cover to screen and scout, that sort of thing. I think this isn't going to be something we can really optimize until we've got a commander, so the heavy bots are it until then.

Speaking of a commander, how about a craft world Eldar? We affiliate with them, they send a liason with instructions to fight our battles against common foes and guide us away from acting against craft world interests.
 
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Counterargument: we're not actually using the features our ship already has for the most part, and it's not obvious what features you'd be aiming to add. Make the Spark Better isn't a bad thing, certainly, but I don't see where it changes the game for us either.
Right now, we have Improved Sensors, which take up 250 units of space. If we researched just the better weapons cramming, we'd get 735 units of space back. Accounting for removing the Improved Sensors, then with module cramming, or cutting down on Bongo's vault once we've bound them, we could fit this:
Superb Sensors 1000 BP - This ship has enough sensors of enough modalities that it's basically a mobile scientific research platform. Anything weird will get noticed, investigated, and if it's an enemy ship, pinned down.
In 3-5 turns (depending on if we go back to Denva for a refit) at no loss to the ship's actual effectiveness. All our sensor worries will be gone, the extra techs just the cherry on top to the best anti-stealth module we could make on top of an incredible boost to our ability to investigate weird shit. Shutting down Drukhari boarding attempts? Done. Investigating the Webgate? Easier than ever.
 
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My current thoughts:

[] Plan ???:
-[] [Free] Database Query?
-[] Research, 2 Actions:
--[] Scrapcode Immunity (100 RP)
--[] Faith is my shield? (75 RP, Anexa)
--[] Basic Pyromantic understanding (100 RP)
--[] Psytech Weapons (150 RP)
--[] Improved Gellar Fields (90 RP)
--[] Psychic tripwires (Leftover RP)
--[] Machine Spirit Design (Extra Leftover RP, if any)
-[] Explore: Vorthryn, Caldereth

...No, wait, I think we'd still be short like 3 RP for that. Hmm...
 
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I am more and more coming around to simply doing Daemonology this turn (without Anexa) just to get the Daemon finally bound.
It's such a load on us in ship-space and repair-bp.
 
I am more and more coming around to simply doing Daemonology this turn (without Anexa) just to get the Daemon finally bound.
It's such a load on us in ship-space and repair-bp.

Hmm. If we cut both the geller fields and the scrapcode immunity for it, that would fit pretty easy. But then we have to worry about the roll on just one tech, and it's not entirely clear how much binding Bongo would help...?
 
For the rest I'm not against stealth but haven't grasped the urgency some people are attaching of a sudden, and I don't actually like Scrapcode Immunity that much as a priority - I'd rather do the Daemonology jump, which is down to 150 RP, and then stop Bongo's chip damage by binding the little jerk.
I absolutely refuse to support doing Daemonology before Scrapcode Immunity. That research has the same risks that the scrapcode generator research itself did - it is Vita directly experimenting with Bongo. We can end that research risk for 100RP, it is insanity to choose otherwise.

If you want more ship space fast, then take the cramming research and use Denvan manufacturing to apply refits.
 
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