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[] Space Marine: Talk
-[] We are an explorer who came out of stasis.
-[] We want to make friends, or at least cooperate against mutual threats.
-[] We do not claim ownership of Denva, but it is under our protection.

Pretty simple, but sometimes simple is best.
 
@Aineko, Magos is a title, which we have publicly claimed on Denva. I figure it's a bit like calling yourself a Doctor when you have all the knowledge, but haven't actually been to college. The people who run the college might raise a stink, but most people just care if you can do the job.

That being said, if calling ourselves Magos is a redline for anyone we can change it. At the end of the day we don't need titles, we can just be Vita.
I thought we only used that title when we were pretending to be a Explorator Magos of the Cult Mechanicus? If we've still been using it as Vita the Ancient, then continuing to use it with the Space Marines makes sense.
-[] We are an explorer who came out of stasis.
With or without mentioning 'pre-Imperium'?
 
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Question: What kind of information can we the Knights of the Crimson Vigil expect to derive from Denva Secundus?

For example, if we pretend to be a Mechanicus expedition engaged in a salvage operation of an ancient warship, will they instantly know we're lying because the planet is putting out broadcasts explaining the opposite, or will they be limited to maybe noticing that there's more orbital infrastructure than expected?
This was already answered:
How common is listening equipment? i.e. How likely is it that this frigate can/will capture stray packets from the planet and get information on whom we've told them we are?
They'd need to get into orbit, and spend some time there.
Which means that the Mechanicus -story is feasible at least in the short term. Not sure if it is the best course of action, though.
 
Never, ever, ever get Caught lying.

And this is a secret that will--inevitably--out in the long run. It's not a viable approach.
 
You certainly don't believe you're an enemy of the Emperor of Mankind

Alectai, I don't think this initial call is the time for nuance. I'd prefer a strong declarative that we are not their enemy. This leaves an opening for them to ask an unproductive question and projects uncertainty. We can get into a more detailed view of it if we sit down at the table with them.

@Aineko, you are correct. We only used the title Magos with the Mechanicum. I have adjusted my draft to remove any title. (source below, from the first peace conference).

"My name is Vita. You've heard who I am. I am an ancient, an explorer from the Stellar Federation, which was a precursor to the Imperium. My ship crashed on Denva Secundus more than ten thousand years ago and I entered stasis as it self-repaired. I awoke about sixty years ago, and have taken steps since then to secure myself, and work towards my goal of building myself a new ship."
 
Not sure. Does it make a huge difference?
It certainly makes a huge difference, but I don't know whether it makes a huge difference to the Space Marines. Depends what they're looking for, maybe.

Leaving it out will probably make them assume we come from inside the Imperium and are affiliated with some Imperial power structure.
 
And I'd really rather not get so into the weeds that we have to fine pick every single word we say like it's a puzzle when I imagine the intent is what matters most, is that right @Neablis ?
 
This was already answered:
Thanks, I somehow totally missed that.
Which means that the Mechanicus -story is feasible at least in the short term. Not sure if it is the best course of action, though.
The idea isn't to scare them off. The idea is to pretend the ship isn't operational yet, provoke them just enough to want to board us, and then blow them up when they get close enough for it.

That, or diplomacy. But if diplomacy fails then it would be best not to let them get away.
 
Tell them the same truth we told Denva.
If they like it cool if not so what.
Without lying we do not need play the game called "keep you lies consistent".
 
I think we might be able to strike a balance between 'Ancient' and 'Ad Mech' so as not to seem so strange and dangerous to the marines. Basically be less critical of the Machine cult than we were to the Denvans, a difference of degree and posture not facts. After all it's not like we went out of our way to wipe out the Ad Mech once they stopped trying to nuke us. So while we never heard of the Emperor before ending up there we were very impressed with his... chiseled golden abs or something (not a diplomatic AI obviously) and now believe that he is the Omnissiah. That is a lie that costs us nothing and moreover one that they cannot disporove.
 
The problem is the story we gave the planet is not viable elsewhere—being from the DAoT will get us branded heretics.

Only in a most extreme, maximum dogmazombie interpretation.

And if they're that fucking dumbfool stupid, I'd like to have it be established now, instead of them finding out through Various Means and hitting us on their own terms.
 
"Hail, Sergeant Cyras of the Knights of the Crimson Vigil. I am Vita, speaking on behalf of those who dwell in the Denva system. We mean you no harm and are not enemies of the Emperor—this world was abandoned to its fate long ago, and I have worked tirelessly to preserve it from threats both within and beyond. We welcome dialogue so we may clarify our intentions and ensure the security of Denva. Please, let us speak further so that we might find common ground."

Points of guidance for the conversation:
  • We do not claim ownership of Denva, but it is under our protection
  • If it becomes relevant explain our public backstory (we are a DAoT explore that recently came out of stasis, we want to help and explore)
  • We are curious to know why they are here after the imperium left for so long
  • We would like to have a deeper diplomatic conversation with them to open relations with their chapter.
Alternate proposal:
"Hail, Sergeant Cyras of the Knights of the Crimson Vigil. I am Magos Vita, speaking on behalf of those who dwell in the Denva system. I am prominent among the remnant Adptus Mechanicus in this world, which was abandoned to its fate long ago, and I have worked tirelessly to preserve it from threats both within and beyond. We welcome dialogue so we may clarify our intentions and ensure the security of Denva. Please, let us speak further so that we might find common ground."
Lead points:
  • We do not claim ownership of Denva, but we are affiliated with a prominent faction and can communicate on their behalf
  • We are willing to trade information and technology, but request that they don't approach the planet or station.
  • If caught out, give the DAoT human story and explain our caution as being wary of the forces of Chaos.
  • We are curious to know why they are here after the imperium left for so long
  • We would like to have a deeper diplomatic conversation with them to open relations with their chapter.
I do think we should stick to the ancient explorer story. Not only is it not a lie, but if the Space Marines are unable to coexist with non-imperials then things are never going to work out between us.
We don't need it to work out forever. Just long enough so that we're less fragile. Plus, sometimes the double bluff is better than the single.
For example, if we pretend to be a Mechanicus expedition engaged in a salvage operation of an ancient warship, will they instantly know we're lying because the planet is putting out broadcasts explaining the opposite, or will they be limited to maybe noticing that there's more orbital infrastructure than expected?
It's been said that they'd need to get in orbit of the planet and observe for a while. If we establish ourselves as a useful point of contact and maybe talk to the intelligence people about what to ixnay, we can probably get away with it for a while.
Only in a most extreme, maximum dogmazombie interpretation
That's not seemed to be the consensus among the people familiar with the lore. Are you familiar with the lore and disagree?
And if they're that fucking dumbfool stupid, I'd like to have it be established now, instead of them finding out through Various Means and hitting us on their own terms.
It would be better to delay any conflict until we are better armed and informed.
We cannot logically be heretics while not being raised in the Imperial Faith. The Imperium does encounter populations who never heard of the Emperor all the time and their reaction is to send missionaries not try to shoot them all.
I don't think zealots care much for logic; additionally, the Marines are the people they send to "shoot them all". Their reaction may be morr trigger happy than a random member of the IoM.
 
Should we mention that we are pre-Imperium and pre-'Overt Activity of the Emperor' (ie, if he was around at our time, he was incognito, possibly pretending to be some other leader), and maybe even say that everything you've heard about the Emperor convincingly points to him being the greatest exemplar of Humanity ever?

IE, present a face that you might be amenable to being converted and saved and all of that?
 
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Should we mention that we are pre-Imperium and pre-'Overt Activity of the Emperor' (ie, if he was around at our time, he was incognito), and maybe even say that everything you've heard about the Emperor convincingly points to him being the greatest exemplar of Humanity ever?
We were suppose to not lie, remember?
Emperor "greatest exemplar of Humanity ever" have you met the guy? :)
 
We were suppose to not lie, remember?
Emperor "greatest exemplar of Humanity ever" have you met the guy? :)
Hey give the guy some credit he only tried to conquer humanity after every went to hell, before the age of strife he was pretty content with humanity reaching it's full potential on it's own, heck he was planning on giving up power after humanity became a fully psykieg race and the human Webway was completed
 
-[] Space Marine: Talk (The first question is easy enough. You are Vita, an Explorer from the Golden Age of humanity, who awoke from stasis within the last couple centuries. You are, as you have always been, someone who only wants the best for humanity. As for the God-Emperor...well, you predate the Imperium, and as such haven't been raised to worship Him, but...you have learned of the Immaterium since you awoke, of the Enemies of Man. You believe the God-Emperor is a net benefit to mankind. But you're still figuring out exactly where you stand on the Imperial Creed itself.)

Formalizing.

Edit: Heck, moratorium is still up.
 
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That's not seemed to be the consensus among the people familiar with the lore. Are you familiar with the lore and disagree?

It would be better to delay any conflict until we are better armed and informed.

I don't think zealots care much for logic; additionally, the Marines are the people they send to "shoot them all". Their reaction may be morr trigger happy than a random member of the IoM.

Yes, but that's mostly because "The lore has a lot of interpretations, which pretty much boils down to 'How much does today's writer want to make this look like a nonfunctional parody' ". The Imperium very much is an edifice that continues to exist primarily based on a constant outpouring of Literal Miracles to continue existing despite breaking physical laws of reality at every turn to continue doing so (The whole Hive World Problem where you can somehow pack trillions of people in one place with unreliable logistics and little to no understanding of how it all works, and completely being incapable of self-sustaining themselves. But somehow, a single shipment from an agri-world being a month late--which is positively gentle for a Warp delay--doesn't kill half the population from starvation when they're already riding on the ragged end of what a human being requires to not melt down. Despite this, Hive Worlds are Insanely productive despite being indescribably wasteful and only existing because of fairy dust and wishful thinking).

Typically, Space Marines aren't exactly who you expect to hold ground, they're special forces in the modern day, who exist to deliver extreme amounts of force to hard targets. If they're sending a Space Marine on a scouting expedition blindly, this suggests a couple possibilities.

A) They've already abandoned the Codex Astartes out of neccessity and broken the limits on their numbers enough that they can have an observer even on high risk-dubious reward operations, meaning that they've already taken the first step towards not being unreasonable dogmazombies.

or

B) They literally cannot trust anyone else to do a half decent job of it, so they need to spend a transhuman super soldier to run herd on an exploratory mission, which means they're desperate--which means we have room to bargain.

Space Marines are warrior-monks, who exist to be broken out when the need is greatest, not to be used for every brushfire that ever pops up. They might deign to get involved in one for their own reasons, but that's not the default assumption. The fact we're directly dealing with one is informative in its own right. More importantly, we're looking at a Blood Angel successor here more than anything else--and while they definitely have problems, they're well contained and typically among the best of the Astartes in terms of "Not being complete pieces of shit". They're positively saints compared to, say, the Dark Angels, who regularly abandon entire battlefronts because they got a dubious hint that an old shame was spotted somewhere.

They can and do delegate, because at the end of the day, an Astartes is a large investment in training and manpower, and poorly suited as solo operators where they can be singled out and rushed down--or god forbid, captured. Yet he's here leading a scouting mission. That's important, and that's an opportunity to make contact on favorable turns.

But that gets a lot more difficult if we start spouting bullshit that Will eventually out. Space Marines have very long memories, and access to Bullshit of their own--like divination and telepathy at the higher ends, even disregarding what a Scout Veteran might be able to pull off in terms of infiltration. If we lie, we're committed to that lie, and at the end of the day, we Will be caught, because it's a lie that we don't fully control all of the information related to it.

It's best to be mostly truthful, at least in the sense that we're sticking to facts that they can't disprove without having an overwhelmingly advantageous position on us to begin with, at which point we might as well kiss our ass goodbye anyway, or hope our goodwill so far has earned a measure of forebearance.

They're a threat, but they're also an opportunity, and we have a net bonus of +23 on negotiation rolls thanks to Victan now. I'm willing to bet on straight-shooting with them over assuming it's a failure to begin with and preparing for total war against transhuman super soldiers, even if they're holding the line against who-the-fuck-knows what in the Sector.

It's a good chance to do some Problem Alchemy after all, I was very careful when I came up with the Threat List, to make sure no two groups were l ikely to be willing to cooperate very closely. If they're being pressed in on multiple fronts, even just being able to go "Our Southern/Eastern/Western flank is secure because they'd have to get through Denva first" is impressive bargaining power given the numbers limitation (And you cannot mass produce Astartes and expect them to be very good at their jobs, every single one is a twenty, thirty year investment just to get to the point where they'd qualify as a line trooper, not even an elite! That's not something you can handwave off). And we can assuredly do better if we don't fuck up our Diplomacy.
 
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Y'all really are not getting the kind of person we're dealing with here. Blood Angels may not be the tip of the spear on fanaticism, but they are loyal Astartes. Each and every story that involves the "ancient explorer from stasis" line is saying "I'm a foul heretic, enemy of the Imperium stealing one of the Emperor's worlds, please kill me".

The Imperium is an absolute institution, even in its mangled remnant in the Imperium Nihilus. We are speaking to a fascist enforcer. There is no diplomancy. There is a chance, even a pretty good chance, that this particular chapter has priorities that make it possible for him to ignore us for a time, but these plans put us right on the kill list and ensure a major response later. Doubly so if he senses the nature of our heresy at all.

Pretend to be an Explorator with a jealousy streak.
 
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