Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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I mean.

We're obviously not dealing with a maximum "IF IT'S NOT STRICTLY WITHIN THESE X PARAMETERS IT'S A HERETIC WHO IS AN ENEMY OF OURS AND WE MUST KILL THEM AT ALL COSTS"

Or they Wouldn't be fucking asking us our intentions.
 
MSH said:
You're volunteering that we're a heretic. Any Astartes worth their salt is only going to react one way to that.
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Okay, we clearly have fundamental different views on the setting if that's your axiom here. That "Anyone who isn't born in the Imperium is a willful heretic who must be exterminated at all costs", in defiance of all the lore that says otherwise.

Not really any point continuing this discussion if this is the hill you're planning to die on.

EDIT: Furthermore, if that's their level of blind dogmatism, we're already a Heretic because we're obviously not in a Mechanicus Sanctioned Vessel, and therefore he should have already scurried off to warn his brothers to raise a crusade to exterminate this subsector.
 
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Alectai said:
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Okay, we clearly have fundamental different views on the setting if that's your axiom here. That "Anyone who isn't born in the Imperium is a willful heretic who must be exterminated at all costs", in defiance of all the lore that says otherwise.

Not really any point continuing this discussion if this is the hill you're planning to die on.
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It depends on the chapter I guess.
Black Templars would totally go "Heresy!!" on the newly contacted humans, other chapters largely no.
 
MSH said:
You're volunteering that we're a heretic. Any Astartes worth their salt is only going to react one way to that.
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We can say that we are interested in learning more of the Imperial Faith and the many variants of it, including the versions that the Astartes practice, as well as stories of the Emperor. IE, give them an opening to proselytize to us rather than just kill us out of hand.
 
Born outside the Imperium is one thing. Born in the Dark Age of Technology is quite another. Humans of the DAOT are viewed as the equivalent of at best the builders of the Tower of Babel and destroyers of the galaxy and at worst as fundamentally the same thing as daemon-worshipers.

The Imperial Cult teaches that the rise of the Emperor is the event of salvation that swept away the the Age of Strife which the DAOT caused, the very origin of heresy and mutation.

I do not think it is any kind of stretch or ambiguity to imagine how Space Marines are to respond to that. And for that matter, I also must note that the DAOT and AI are strongly correlated even in M42.
 
Picio said:
It depends on the chapter I guess.
Black Templars would totally go "Heresy!!" on the newly contacted humans, other chapters largely no.
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I mean.

He asked us our intentions

If we were dealing with Maximum Dogmazombies, he'd have taken one look at the unfamiliar ship, and Translated back out hell bent to warn his brothers to raise a crusade fleet to burn this entire sub-sector to the ground.

He's asking our intentions. We are already not dealing with maximum lunacy insane murderbeast Astartes.

Frankly, 40K is built from the ground up for the purpose of justifying "Any faction can fight any other faction, for any reason or no reason at all". That doesn't mean we should treat this like a murderhobo simulator where we make every enemy we can because we can't be assed to try starting with diplomacy because we assumed it's fruitless. There's factions that you can't negotiate with, but a lone Astartes chapter is not one of them.
 
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-[ ] Space Marine: Talk
--[ ] Hail, Sergeant Cyras of the Knights of the Crimson Vigil. I am Vita, speaking on behalf of those who dwell in the Denva system. We mean you no harm and are not enemies of the Emperor—this world was abandoned to its fate long ago, and I have worked tirelessly to preserve it from threats both within and beyond. We welcome dialogue so we may clarify our intentions and ensure the security of Denva. Please, let us speak further so that we might find common ground.

Alright people Neablis said to start specifically doing the space marine vote so let's get it done.
 
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michaell8000 said:
-[X] Space Marine: Talk
--[X] Hail, Sergeant Cyras of the Knights of the Crimson Vigil. I am Vita, speaking on behalf of those who dwell in the Denva system. We mean you no harm and are not enemies of the Emperor—this world was abandoned to its fate long ago, and I have worked tirelessly to preserve it from threats both within and beyond. We welcome dialogue so we may clarify our intentions and ensure the security of Denva. Please, let us speak further so that we might find common ground.

Alright people Neablis said to start specifically doing the space marine vote so let's get it done.
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Moratorium pal
 
MSH said:
You're volunteering that we're a heretic. Any Astartes worth their salt is only going to react one way to that.
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If that's the way they are going to act Diplomacy is not going to be viable with them in the long run. Its better to learn that now before we put effort into trying to befriend people who will never tolerate our existence. Frankly we have a grand cruiser and they have a frigate. If they attack us for being a heretic then there going to get what's coming to them.
 
Absolutism fails. It eventually runs into a scenario it doesn't have an answer for, and it fails, because there is no room for anyone to leave their lane in search of a solution.

The Imperium, if it ever actually lasts ten thousand years, is NOT absolute. Local superstitions, dialects, customs, technologies, and even interpretations of faith rule the day. It is too big and too disconnected to allow anything else. If it were as absolute in its views towards the ignorant as some people believe, every system would be in rebellion against every other, as violent Astartes clashed with fat nobility clashed with uncompromising Inquisitors clashed with entitled Administratum clashed with beat-stick happy Arbites clashed with dogmatic Mechanicus clashed with ignorant peasants just trying to survive.

The Imperium, for all its very real faults, worked. Somehow. And therefore is a functional system capable of adapting when necessary or profitable. NOT an overblown caricature of a fascist dictatorship that exists solely to make life miserable for the average person.
 
Even the most rabid space marine chapters, which these guys probably aren't, are capable of understanding the firepower difference between a frigate and a grand cruiser.
 
Mayto said:
IF

The marines do get word to the Imperium, then, in all likelihood, it will be over. Because that's just a part of the setting. There's a reason secessionist and/or recidivist human realms rarely last long.

No iffs, no butts. If the Imperium at large wants this world gone, it will be.
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Though we do know that the Sector at large has been abandoned and these Space Marines in all likelihood are the only Imperial Presence here. There is a chance that they'll come to destroy us, but they're unlikely to be able to bring the full weight of their Chapter upon us when they have Necrons, Tyranids, and a Daemon World which are much more pressing threats so we just gotta hope that practicality will overcome zealotry. And for those who believe they are zealots due to believing in the God-Emperor's divinity, sources vary on whether most Chapters practice the Imperial Truth or the Imperial Cult and the likes of the Black Templars only stand out due to just how fanatical and purist they are.
edofthesquid said:
So that plus how Denva unified, I'm leaning towards giving them the stations to run as a boost, and giving them what we know as far as technology/science (with maybe a special conversation with W or someone about Chaos and the threat in it to be safe).
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Honestly, I think we should give them everything we got. They're all on the same page now and unlikely to nuke each other into oblivion and now the other factions have come a knocking so they should get everything they can get so they'll stand a chance.
Speedemon22 said:
We're reaching our CP limit and I think we should start either on mothballing or Intelligence coding. Mothballing is more immediate and will let us store things away for later while Intelligence coding will start us on the path to making our own AI.
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Or as others said, we work on those implants to allow people to control our infrastructure so nothing goes to waste.
MSH said:
The omniscient narration of The End and the Death indicates that the death of the Emperor and the birth of the Dark King would be the final event that tears open reality like an overripe fruit, spiraling into desolate Chaos and then the final extermination of everything.
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I mean, like many things in 40k, there is some information in the End and the Death that are a contradictory with other sources, and even the mechanics within this quest.

For one, Malcador insisted on everyone knowing about Chaos since that would weaken Chaos and the Warp, but the Emperor refused to do so since he wanted to grab onto as much power as he could get from the Warp. Whereas here, knowing about Chaos and just thinking about it can let Chaos start trying to get their hooks into you.

Secondly, that the Emperor could simply choose to just become a Chaos God after only a couple centuries of the Grest Crusade when it took tens of thousands of years for the Aeldari Dominion to forge Slaanesh. And imo, I do prefer the Star-Father better than the Dark King since the latter is mostly just a choice for Big E and its domains of Death and Destruction is pretty generic, whereas the former is a God of Tyranny that can be birthed from over ten thousands years of worship from Quadrillions of people and empowered through the sacrifice of a thousand psykers every day, and Big E doesn't really have much of a choice in the matter in how he turns out.
 
Yeah, there's procedure for newly contacted humans, it's "Send missionaries and see if whatever heathen beliefs they have can be reconciled with the Imperial Faith", murdering them all is what comes if it turns out they're not willing to accept your bribes and lessons to convert, and they've got something valuable enough that you're going to put your foot down on the matter.

And funnily enough? Missionaries are some of the best people in the Ecclesiarchy. Because you have to genuinely believe in the mission and what's best for everyone to be willing to go through the shitshow of giving up the ludicrous wealth and luxury of the Ecclesiarchy to minister to the heathens who don't know any better. You have to be someone reasonably open minded and well educated, because the ones who drop in and start shooting everyone tend to get lynched before they make any real headway.

Hell, that'd possibly be Bean potential! The Missionaria Galaxia is almost tailor made to be the "Imperial Faith character who isn't a psychotic lunatic but a genuinely decent human being who believes in something meaningful, instead of just spouting whatever gets them points and infinite money" That's why they're the assumed PC archetype for Rogue Trader games--a group who are free-thinkers who play fast and loose with the rules to begin with.
 
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Also, even if this SpaceMarine might be a bit 'yeah, we're gonna have to deal with this', we're in a sector with plenty of other problems. So it's entirely possible that us being 'not up to code, but not hostile' places us way down at the priority list as in 'Once we deal with all the other threats, maybe we'll go push there'.
 
I wonder if asking, hey, want a couple hundred assault shuttles, an enormous box full of promethium and missiles, and a DD or two to help fight the good fight? would help
 
Rockeye said:
I wonder if asking, hey, want a couple hundred assault shuttles, an enormous box full of promethium and missiles, and a DD or two to help fight the good fight? would help
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Well we don't have the prometheum yet, I'm pretty sure. Other stuff would require them to trust us, or feel comfortable checking the stuff for tampering, but maybe?
 
Haganeko said:
"Hail, Sergeant Cyras of the Knights of the Crimson Vigil. I am Magos Vita, speaking on behalf of those who dwell in the Denva system. I am prominent among the remnant Adptus Mechanicus in this world, which was abandoned to its fate long ago, and I have worked tirelessly to preserve it from threats both within and beyond. We welcome dialogue so we may clarify our intentions and ensure the security of Denva. Please, let us speak further so that we might find common ground."
Lead points:
  • We do not claim ownership of Denva, but we are affiliated with a prominent faction and can communicate on their behalf
  • We are willing to trade information and technology, but request that they don't approach the planet or station.
  • If caught out, give the DAoT human story and explain our caution as being wary of the forces of Chaos.
  • We are curious to know why they are here after the imperium left for so long
  • We would like to have a deeper diplomatic conversation with them to open relations with their chapter.
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I don't see the benefit of adding another layer of deception to this. As others have pointed out it will be very hard to maintain over time and I don't see the benefit it gets us.

BigBadBob7070 said:
Honestly, I think we should give them everything we got. They're all on the same page now and unlikely to nuke each other into oblivion and now the other factions have come a knocking so they should get everything they can get so they'll stand a chance.
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I'm onboard with giving them almost everything. I'd like to hold back warp / psytech related stuff from the general populace. I'm not sure they are ready for cognito hazards. If we want to give the psy shielding or void abacus (once researched) I'd be okay with that. But certainly nothing on the scrapcode or the like.

Rockeye said:
I wonder if asking, hey, want a couple hundred assault shuttles, an enormous box full of promethium and missiles, and a DD or two to help fight the good fight? would help
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I'm sure we could make logistics support part of a full diplomatic action if we are able to engage them after this. If (big if) all goes well and we become friends I am perfectly happy to help them fight gribbles so we don't have to. Heck even just a friendly port where they can gas up their ships would be a tremendous help to a special forces group.
 
Alectai said:
Typically, Space Marines aren't exactly who you expect to hold ground, they're special forces in the modern day, who exist to deliver extreme amounts of force to hard targets. If they're sending a Space Marine on a scouting expedition blindly, this suggests a couple possibilities.
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Might be they're escorting the scout ship due to the presence of demons in the sector. Maybe this scouting is important, or they can't afford to lose the ship to some random enemies.
Alectai said:
More importantly, we're looking at a Blood Angel successor here more than anything else--and while they definitely have problems, they're well contained and typically among the best of the Astartes in terms of "Not being complete pieces of shit".
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This is news to me. Good to know.
Nightlord256 said:
I don't see the benefit of adding another layer of deception to this. As others have pointed out it will be very hard to maintain over time and I don't see the benefit it gets us.
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I begin to think I just don't know enough to decide between these options and should abstain. I see people stating confidently that the ancient line is equivalent to declaring hostility and not, and people saying that any unnecessary lying is a death sentence. In which case... I guess the best we can do is delay them finding out we're an AI.
Nightlord256 said:
I'm onboard with giving them almost everything. I'd like to hold back warp / psytech related stuff from the general populace. I'm not sure they are ready for cognito hazards. If we want to give the psy shielding or void abacus (once researched) I'd be okay with that. But certainly nothing on the scrapcode or the like.
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I think we should hold back our very best military tech for a bit longer. Just until we're confident there won't be a repeat of that earlier attack attempt.

I have also been thinking we might offer different countries more of different techs, so everyone has incentives to cooperate to share the knowledge.
 
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