I begin to think I just don't know enough to decide between these options and should abstain. I see people stating confidently that the ancient line is equivalent to declaring hostility and not, and people saying that any unnecessary lying is a death sentence.
While the latter statement seems like a bit of an exaggeration, I think the former group has both badly misread the tone of the quest, and just... doesn't know the distinction between an apostate, a heretic, and a heathen?

The former two are much worse (unfortunately for Denva) than an agnostic heathen.
 
So, in regards to the spehs mahreens, I see a few different approaches:

1. Just blow them up. Pretty much guarantees hostilities at some point, and neither Vita nor Cia will feel happy about it, and means we have fewer spehs mahreens to try and maneuver into other problems, but at least we'll know where we stand with them, and we can plan around fighting them. Also, we can loot the ship and dissect the bodies, maybe? Assuming we manage to get in range and land hits...
2. Lie to them a lot. This will either gain us time before blowing up in our face, or if we're going to keep it up in the long term it demands that we keep them at arms length so they never get too good a look at us. I think it's iffy, but if all we want is for them to go away and not bother us then it might work out all right, maybe? Assuming none of the dozen things that could sink the lie happen...
3. Lie to them, but only a little bit. The ol' 'awakened ancient' angle. One of the least predictable actions. It might see us in hostilities within the next couple turns, or we could end up as best buds. More likely, we can at least keep ourselves from becoming a high priority threat. I'm not sure how this works out for Denva though - they get a good look at it, I can't see them being friendly...

So, overall I'm not super confident about any of these plans. If we didn't have to deal with anything but cold logic I'd lean towards the first one, honestly, but given all our people have feelings I can't really endorse it. If nothing else, it requires hunkering and/or seizing territory, which doesn't play well with wayfarer...
 
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From a purely PC perspective, how much do we know about how Space Marines operates and how they deal with newly discovered humans outside of the IoM and untrained by Chaos? Because I really feel like a lot if the arguments made are way to meta.
 
I'd argue that we're definitely more aligned with the imperium than not aligned.
We share the following enemies:
  • Chaos
  • Tyranids
  • Orks
  • Dark Eldar
  • Necrons (probably)
I'd say focusing on how we don't like those guys gives us some common ground.

Also depending on how late we are in the timeline, Bobby G might be in charge, and I think we could pull off negotiating with him.
 
I think we can go for something that sounds and feels vaguely like we are Imperium-aligned, but is also somewhat misleading. Let's string these together:

"I am an awakened ancient."
"I am still gathering information and have not reached a conclusion on the Imperium."
"I am here to uplift humanity."
"I intend to protect humanity from threats in the galaxy."

Combined, this is essentially mostly true, isn't lying, and positions ourselves as somewhat in their corner. I think the goal we should aim for is something like a loose allience/friendly, which given that this area of Imperium space is probably like, going to be swamped with other threats, should be enough that the Imperium does not have the combined function of willingness + ability to squish us flat.
 
@Neablis

So here's a random question not related to the current discussion, would Vita know what the hell Kron is from the short story Ancient History? He was implied to be a Man of Stone in that story, but his characteristics really don't seem to match the Men of Stone of this quest unless he's just an agent being remotely piloted.
 
I think we can go for something that sounds and feels vaguely like we are Imperium-aligned, but is also somewhat misleading. Let's string these together:

"I am an awakened ancient."
"I am still gathering information and have not reached a conclusion on the Imperium."
"I am here to uplift humanity."
"I intend to protect humanity from threats in the galaxy."

Combined, this is essentially mostly true, isn't lying, and positions ourselves as somewhat in their corner. I think the goal we should aim for is something like a loose allience/friendly, which given that this area of Imperium space is probably like, going to be swamped with other threats, should be enough that the Imperium does not have the combined function of willingness + ability to squish us flat.

The 'uplift humanity' one might be a bridge too far? It sounds like a broad ideological goal, that might lead us into conflict with them. Just leaving it at the other three would probably work better.
 
"I am Sergeant Cyras of the Knights of the Crimson Vigil. You will tell me whom you represent, and if you are an enemy of the God-Emperor of Mankind, the Master of the Galaxy."

-[] Space Marine: Talk
--[] "I am Explorer Vita, representing the memory of the Stellar Federation. I am not an enemy of the emperor unless he decrees otherwise. I believe we have much to offer eachother, as I have heard good things about space marines, and would like to negotiate peaceful exchanges of supplies and information if you are willing."

I do want to claim the stellar federation, but acknowledging it's dead and gone means we are an independent agent. The bit about the emperor makes it clear we aren't an enemy without lying about anything, and without implying any loyalty to the emperor or the creed, and since they shouldn't be in contact with terra it puts the ball in his court to decide how to proceed.

...Why Kethraxis? Myrris, in the opposite direction, was mentioned to produce Prometheum, which suggests the presence of advanced technology. Kethraxis, on the other hand, just has a feral world, which seems way less promising.

I think a feral world is a good place to recruit a commander type, and it would be nice to do some more uplift.
 
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That's... Actually not bad, I think it's a bit stilted, but the bones of it are about right. Probably less "Putting words in Vita's mouth" though.
 
I'm sorry to do this, but I'm changing the vote to also include the two other non-plan votes, which means Cia's and Anexa's development choices. This is primarily because planning for next turn will be impacted by Anexa's new abilities, so I either need to make that part of the plan or have you vote on it now. There's no write-in, so it shouldn't require a ton of moratorium.

And I'd really rather not get so into the weeds that we have to fine pick every single word we say like it's a puzzle when I imagine the intent is what matters most, is that right @Neablis ?
Yeah. The general picture of what you want to share and what you want to ask.

@Neablis would handing over the tech we developed worked as a research action and we'd get the 200 RP?
Sharing tech is free. You could certainly spend actions getting them up to speed though.

-[X] Space Marine: Talk
--[X] Hail, Sergeant Cyras of the Knights of the Crimson Vigil. I am Vita, speaking on behalf of those who dwell in the Denva system. We mean you no harm and are not enemies of the Emperor—this world was abandoned to its fate long ago, and I have worked tirelessly to preserve it from threats both within and beyond. We welcome dialogue so we may clarify our intentions and ensure the security of Denva. Please, let us speak further so that we might find common ground.

Alright people Neablis said to start specifically doing the space marine vote so let's get it done.
Just a fair warning - this is very vague. If this wins then you'll get asked where the ship came from and who you are and Vita will be evasive, with success depending on die roll.

#5,586

As I said Neablis wants us to do the space marine vote
The current scheduled vote is for the space marine vote. Then I'll post that conversation and do the full vote.

@Neablis

So here's a random question not related to the current discussion, would Vita know what the hell Kron is from the short story Ancient History? He was implied to be a Man of Stone in that story, but his characteristics really don't seem to match the Men of Stone of this quest unless he's just an agent being remotely piloted.
My reading is that he's a specially designed bot to house an AI core. Not nearly as much processing power but you could probably fit most of an intelligence in there, if you were willing to give up some things. Probably a man of stone making compromises to survive in 40k, and maybe one who actually believed in the Imperium, I haven't read the story.
 
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-[] Space Marine: Talk
--[] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

Basically Glau's write-in, but not trying to directly micromanage what we're saying.
 
@Neablis, no problem and that makes sense.

For Anexa, Its a toss up between:

[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
Doubles specialty capacity & bonuses (so will be able to have 4 specialties, and each give +10 to the dice roll and potentially unlock new technologies when she uses them). This bonus will apply to her passive action.
[] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge
Anexa now contributes +level/3 (round up) to the research roll in addition to additional RP

I agree the Jack seems more mechanically powerful for our rolls, but the potential to unlock new technology offered by Master of Many calls to me. @Neablis, can we get any insight on how often these unlocks would trigger?

edit: for Cia my vote is Yes, I want her trained up as a champion. We have ships if we need to break a fleet.
 
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Anyway, since it's on topic now, I'm inclined to go with this for the other votes.

[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

Sure, on the forefront of things, this seems worse, but I looked real close and found out the secret spice that makes this actually really good!

The doubled Specialty pool? That's great, especially since it'll scale over time and there's still two more "Perks" on the table in the long run, which we might be able to use for some other shiny stuff. But the real spice here is that this applies the Specialty Bonus to her Passive rolls

Which means Anexa is chopping away at our Research Backlog with a +10 bonus (Which almost completely eliminates Failure from the table, I would remind you, and gives a modest chance of critting). Even if we don't do research in a given turn. This is more likely to happen than not as the map opens up! Since Exploring is very action intensive but also extremely lucrative when it comes to producing discounts. She also has a 20% chance every time she uses her passive to generate a Bonus Tech and Level Up, which tend to be Extremely powerful, even disregarding the tech discounts that come with it--and the specialties she already has both contain a lot of high RP but very important projects, it's just really handy to have, you know?

Jack of All Knowledge does outpace the numerical bonus, but only applies it to half the number of projects, and does nothing to improve her Passive, so she rolls those straight across. So any turn where we're not doing a Research is going to be one where she's not being super productive. It's great--if you assume that the two Specialties we already have are all we'll ever need, and that we'll be researching in those fields every single turn without fail.

Master of Many Talents--at least--means that if we're doing something that isn't on one of her specialties, she's still got two slots open to add more specialties, This adds up over time, especially since it synergizes with Vita's own passive +20 to research, meaning she's got a roughly 30% chance of unlocking a new specialty if we branch her out into another field. That's really good. It also ensures that if we are playing in Anexa's specialty, the chance of even getting a poor success drops to 5%--while our chance at critting hits 40%. This is very, very good, and very, very consistent, even if it lacks the spike potential of Jack, or the sheer "INCREASE NUMBERS" of Researcher.

And finally.

[] Cia: Yes

Pyromancers are spectacularly good Champions. Which isn't to say a commander would be useless--we'd probably like one down the line to fill one of our 2 remaining slots after our Pilot-bean is decanted and raised. But Pyromancers are very good at being very scary to a lot of things, especially when we can produce Space Marine quality, psi-active Power Armor and Force Equipment on top of that.
 
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I agree the Jack seems more mechanically powerful for our rolls, but the potential to unlock new technology offered by Master of Many calls to me. @Neablis, can we get any insight on how often these unlocks would trigger?

my problem here with Master of many is what sort of rolls do we need to unlock new tech? is it automatic depending on her specialty or is it a DC60 I'd prefer an increase to any roll we put her on because we'll pretty much always be researching even if it's not Anexa's specialty which will happen more often than not due to there being 16 specialties so locking her bonus a quarter of them just doesn't make sense.
 
my problem here with Master of many is what sort of rolls do we need to unlock new tech? is it automatic depending on her specialty or is it a DC60 I'd prefer an increase to any roll we put her on because we'll pretty much always be researching even if it's not Anexa's specialty which will happen more often than not due to there being 16 specialties so locking her bonus a quarter of them just doesn't make sense.
Unclear, but it would probably make unlocking the hinted at techs like Psychic AI more likely than any of the alternatives. That alone makes it worth it to me.

Anexa will tend to gain specialties in the things we study and study with her, which is probably going to be the really interesting, esoteric, and important tech.
 
new technology offered by Master of Many calls to me. @Neablis, can we get any insight on how often these unlocks would trigger?
Worth clarifying. The passive becomes a roll to discount a random tech by an amount determined by the roll, with specialty bonus applied if the random tech is in one of her specialties.

If that roll is a crit (including the specialty bonus), then instead she unlocks a bonus tech from one of her specialties, as if you'd crit during a research action.

I'll note that the bonus techs unlocked by crits are good. The ones that come to mid are OMC and psychic computation. Both rather good techs.

But - what's the best way to get them? More bonuses to reaearch, or passive rolls?
 
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I will note, both of Anexa's currcurrent specialties are extremely valuable and I'd be happy to keep her on them indefinitely - we have more than enough worthwhile research in them, and no sign of running out any time soon, even without unlocking bonus techs.
 
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I will note, both of Anexa's currcurrent specialties are extremely valuable and I'd be happy to keep her on them indefinitely - we have more than enough worthwhile research in them, and no sign of running out any time soon, even without unlocking bonus techs.

I mean, they're also one trick pony stuff. Like, I won't throw a fit if Jack wins, but it doesn't really significantly outpace Master for a good 5, 6 levels, and it provides no benefit on the Passive and keeps us at only 2 Specialties.

Jack spikes really hard, but it loses a degree of consistency of performance compared to what Master can reach. And the main downside of Master (Needing crits) is already largely mitigated by Vita giving a +20 to the research rolls (Meaning Anexa gets a new specialty roughly 30% of the time when working in a new field, that's pretty damn high)
 
There are currently fifteen categories, and from how incredibly narrow they are Physics is undoubtedly going to explode into another half dozen or so once we get into it a bit...

Do we know what the passive effect from Jack of All Knowledge would be?
 
Worth noting that we get another specialty at level 20, and again at 30. Master of many adds a bonus specialty to each of those breakpoints, but either way the specialties we have aren't going to be the only ones we ever have long term.

Do we know what the passive effect from Jack of All Knowledge would be?
It's the same passive action, it just doesn't get the +10 that master of many would provide - the passive action would be a raw roll. And of course, fewer specialties that the bonus tech can be for.
 
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I mean, they're also one trick pony stuff. Like, I won't throw a fit if Jack wins, but it doesn't really significantly outpace Master for a good 5, 6 levels, and it provides no benefit on the Passive and keeps us at only 2 Specialties.

Jack spikes really hard, but it loses a degree of consistency of performance compared to what Master can reach. And the main downside of Master (Needing crits) is already largely mitigated by Vita giving a +20 to the research rolls (Meaning Anexa gets a new specialty roughly 30% of the time when working in a new field, that's pretty damn high)

Oh I'm not arguing against MoMT, I'll probably vote for it even. I just still want to focus on the warp and machine spirits. And I wouldn't call either of those narrow, they both provide rather broad benefits, IMO.
 
Worth noting that we get another specialty at level 20, and again at 30. Master of many adds a bonus specialty to each of those breakpoints, but either way the specialties we have aren't going to be the only ones we ever have long term.
It doubles every breakpoint. Without master it's 1 to 2 to 4 to 8. With it it's 4 to 8 to 16.

There are currently fifteen categories, and from how incredibly narrow they are Physics is undoubtedly going to explode into another half dozen or so once we get into it a bit...

Do we know what the passive effect from Jack of All Knowledge would be?
Physics won't blossom out too far. If I had to guess you've got most of them, with others being things like "titans," "necron studies," "Aeldari studies." Maybe "terraforming."
 
I begin to think I just don't know enough to decide between these options and should abstain. I see people stating confidently that the ancient line is equivalent to declaring hostility and not, and people saying that any unnecessary lying is a death sentence. In which case... I guess the best we can do is delay them finding out we're an AI.

The Imperium of Man is many things, but ironically for a state that is super fascist to the level of near parody the one thing it lacks is consistency especially when dealing with things that are outside the norm. 'Finding a living Ancient' is so far outside the norm you can't even see it zooming by in the distance. To guess how this Marine would see people from that age you would have to know the legends of his homeworld. Maybe they see that as a lost age of technological supremacy and peace when mankind ruled the stars before the Evil Xenos ruined everything, maybe they see it as the time of Godless Heretics which were smote with the Tribulation of Old Strife/Old Night as a punishment for sin and anything in between.

-[] Space Marine: Talk
--[] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

I think it is worth specifying how exactly we want to fight them if Vita detects they are not on board with her story. I really do not want to blow them into plasma when we could capture the ship and some prisoners for information, something like

-[] If negotiations break down attempt to cripple but not kill the ship so you can capture it as intact as you can, trying to preserve the lives of the crew.
 
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-[] If negotiations break down attempt to cripple but not kill the ship so you can capture it as intact as you can, trying to preserve the lives of the crew.

...

I am incredibly unwilling to assume they'll berserk and jump a Grand Cruiser in a fucking Sword-class Frigate.

Like, that's a degree of stupidity that can only be called terminal.

And if he decides he hates us but isn't going to buy that fight, he's not going to get in weapons range of us. We do not have infinite range weapons for all that in-system comms are apparently superluminal in 40K
 
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