fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If we train stealth with ENM I expect that we could learn another stealth spealization based on getting people to ignore us.
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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- At the end of the world
It's not a song, but you do understand that you just proved my point, right?
Hmm, let's see. 1.5 AP to replace 20 SP or 4-6 AP to finish ENM. You still going to tell me that your variant is less wasteful? Also where is successes come from? We talk about Sect Points here. And we can train fade from ENM+ just as fine.
Not a big deal. Just unnecessary. Why bother with weaker version, using some AP to train it and then some more AP to crunch it's meridians when we can just jump to better version that would be useful even on Tournament.
A Grading of Arts
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Hmm, I've been thinking on things absently during the long nights at work, while fighting the infinite swarms of bugs trying to either eat me or using me as a convienent taxi, and I realized we're missing something that most Xianxia settings have!
incredibly specific hierarchies between different martial techniques!
This is an incredible oversight that needs immediate correction @yrsillar!
So, I've taken the liberty to kinda sorta omake one up while the inspiration remains strong in me.
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On Arts and the Hierarchy Thereof
Myriad are the insights and lessons taught by those who would walk the Path of Immortality. The legacies of those who had come in the past paving the way for future generations in an eternal, virtuous cycle. These lessons are commonly referred to as 'Arts'--practices of manipulating Qi so as to create desired effects without having the ancestral memory of the most ancient houses or the blood of mighty spirits to guide one's advancement.
Of course, as with all things--these lessons come in myriad levels of detail--ranging from the casual dissertations of a successful general and their insights on war, to the deepest secrets of wind and sky to be harnessed by an able and attentive student. Though it cannot be said that any art is weak, the simpler and more abridged techniques are rarely suitable for all but the meanest barons and soldiery.
There are--of course--variants between them--but on the whole, any given Art can be divided into one of four distinct categories of increasing potency.
Unranked Arts are the simplest and most elementary Qi exercises--often involving the base emulation of a natural phenomena and duplicating it without seeking any higher truth. These are the techniques often utilized by common guardsmen, soldiers, and other lay cultivators due to their ease of acquisition (Being the sole category of Art that can be acquired by something as mean as common silver), and straightforward lessons. These are the sole advantages of an Unranked technique--as that very ease of use and mastery preclude any higher insights to be gleaned from the study, the core lessons diluted for mass production such that even the wisest sage could not derive any true mastery--save for perhaps a rudimentary introduction in the use of given weapons and elements.
Mortal Arts are the first grade of quality that can be considered worthy of note to a Cultivator. Often produced as a result of the meditations and whims of the mighty, these have not been simplified in the same fashion as Unranked techniques--and thus can often have a valuable lesson to teach those who's hearts and minds resonate with the tale held within. Of course, while such idle meditations can produce valuable insights to those on related Ways, it cannot truthfully be said that these techniques would count as the core strength of any Cultivator worthy of the name--but where they suffer in broad applicability and concentration of power, they benefit from still being easy to learn and master--and often respectable within their area of specialty. Still, Mortal-grade Arts are not especially strongly protected by any Clan that should hold them--and as such, these serve as the foundation that newly raised Barons construct the foundations of their own nascent Ways upon--to gain the insights needed to provide a greater inheritance to the next generation.
Earthly Arts are the start of what can be considered the 'Core Strength' of a mighty Cultivator. These are well polished meditations passed down from generation to generation until it sublimates into something greater than its point of origin--or else the native insights of powerful spirits that deign to teach their ways to the children of man. In either event, these Arts have often been refined to the peak of their potential, achieving the maximum strength that their Cultivation can support--and the acquisition or invention of even a single one a valued prize for all but the most ancient and mighty Clans within the Celestial Empire. Beyond the power that an Earth-grade Art holds, their lessons are often multifaceted--capable of providing insight to all but the most divergent of Ways from their origin. Needless to say, an Earth-grade Art is a treasure that no Clan would surrender lightly, or without great cost, and it is on the back of a collection of these that the High Nobility can claim their titles and holdings with.
Heavenly Arts then are a step beyond--a special insight that is often impossible to seek out, and can be achieved only through the greatest of tribulations. Suffice to say, a Heavenly-grade art often cannot be forged without the assistance of one at the peak of Cultivation--and such an act is deeply perilous for the junior partner of such a collaboration once beyond the limitations of the Third Realm. Where an Earth-grade Art operates at the peak of what its Cultivation can support, a Heaven-grade Art often taps into a capability typically only available at higher Realms. The capacity to fly on one's own power in the Third Realm, the capacity to interfere with cause-and-effect, or the ability to halt the very flows of Qi are all examples of what a Heaven-grade Technique can allow even in the earliest realms of Cultivation. Their Insights are no less potent, capable of adapting to nearly any Domain that does not outright oppose the nature of the Art. It is little wonder then that only the Ducal Clans with their access to Cultivators of the Eighth Realm can boast a significant collection of Heaven-grade Techniques--and it is through doling these out to their mightiest vassals that they can bind them to their own cause without need for violence.
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incredibly specific hierarchies between different martial techniques!
This is an incredible oversight that needs immediate correction @yrsillar!
So, I've taken the liberty to kinda sorta omake one up while the inspiration remains strong in me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Arts and the Hierarchy Thereof
Myriad are the insights and lessons taught by those who would walk the Path of Immortality. The legacies of those who had come in the past paving the way for future generations in an eternal, virtuous cycle. These lessons are commonly referred to as 'Arts'--practices of manipulating Qi so as to create desired effects without having the ancestral memory of the most ancient houses or the blood of mighty spirits to guide one's advancement.
Of course, as with all things--these lessons come in myriad levels of detail--ranging from the casual dissertations of a successful general and their insights on war, to the deepest secrets of wind and sky to be harnessed by an able and attentive student. Though it cannot be said that any art is weak, the simpler and more abridged techniques are rarely suitable for all but the meanest barons and soldiery.
There are--of course--variants between them--but on the whole, any given Art can be divided into one of four distinct categories of increasing potency.
Unranked Arts are the simplest and most elementary Qi exercises--often involving the base emulation of a natural phenomena and duplicating it without seeking any higher truth. These are the techniques often utilized by common guardsmen, soldiers, and other lay cultivators due to their ease of acquisition (Being the sole category of Art that can be acquired by something as mean as common silver), and straightforward lessons. These are the sole advantages of an Unranked technique--as that very ease of use and mastery preclude any higher insights to be gleaned from the study, the core lessons diluted for mass production such that even the wisest sage could not derive any true mastery--save for perhaps a rudimentary introduction in the use of given weapons and elements.
Mortal Arts are the first grade of quality that can be considered worthy of note to a Cultivator. Often produced as a result of the meditations and whims of the mighty, these have not been simplified in the same fashion as Unranked techniques--and thus can often have a valuable lesson to teach those who's hearts and minds resonate with the tale held within. Of course, while such idle meditations can produce valuable insights to those on related Ways, it cannot truthfully be said that these techniques would count as the core strength of any Cultivator worthy of the name--but where they suffer in broad applicability and concentration of power, they benefit from still being easy to learn and master--and often respectable within their area of specialty. Still, Mortal-grade Arts are not especially strongly protected by any Clan that should hold them--and as such, these serve as the foundation that newly raised Barons construct the foundations of their own nascent Ways upon--to gain the insights needed to provide a greater inheritance to the next generation.
Earthly Arts are the start of what can be considered the 'Core Strength' of a mighty Cultivator. These are well polished meditations passed down from generation to generation until it sublimates into something greater than its point of origin--or else the native insights of powerful spirits that deign to teach their ways to the children of man. In either event, these Arts have often been refined to the peak of their potential, achieving the maximum strength that their Cultivation can support--and the acquisition or invention of even a single one a valued prize for all but the most ancient and mighty Clans within the Celestial Empire. Beyond the power that an Earth-grade Art holds, their lessons are often multifaceted--capable of providing insight to all but the most divergent of Ways from their origin. Needless to say, an Earth-grade Art is a treasure that no Clan would surrender lightly, or without great cost, and it is on the back of a collection of these that the High Nobility can claim their titles and holdings with.
Heavenly Arts then are a step beyond--a special insight that is often impossible to seek out, and can be achieved only through the greatest of tribulations. Suffice to say, a Heavenly-grade art often cannot be forged without the assistance of one at the peak of Cultivation--and such an act is deeply perilous for the junior partner of such a collaboration once beyond the limitations of the Third Realm. Where an Earth-grade Art operates at the peak of what its Cultivation can support, a Heaven-grade Art often taps into a capability typically only available at higher Realms. The capacity to fly on one's own power in the Third Realm, the capacity to interfere with cause-and-effect, or the ability to halt the very flows of Qi are all examples of what a Heaven-grade Technique can allow even in the earliest realms of Cultivation. Their Insights are no less potent, capable of adapting to nearly any Domain that does not outright oppose the nature of the Art. It is little wonder then that only the Ducal Clans with their access to Cultivators of the Eighth Realm can boast a significant collection of Heaven-grade Techniques--and it is through doling these out to their mightiest vassals that they can bind them to their own cause without need for violence.
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No, I think you're misunderstanding how narrative combat plays out.
Yes because you're ignoring the Fade training elements relative urgency.
Which we rather sorely need to raise up. Moreover, opportunity cost regarding Domain leveling from training the art and potential overflow into base cultivation.
Setting aside, again, quicker returns than spending AP to level up a Green 3 or 4 starting art to even be able to use it to begin with.
Whereas we can hypothetically spend 1 AP on ENM next turn, and have a fully functional stealth suite right away for whatever events happen then. We have the Arm meridians open to equip it after all.
So yes.
Your approach is not only wasteful, it takes longer to get any returns, and it assumes that said hypothetical successor begins at Green 3 in the first place.
Lol
Better to eat the meal in front of you then go hungry looking for something better instead. We've already lost a valuable opportunity to putting off investment in actual stealth arts.
Im loathe to lose any more because of misguided thinking acting under the guise of "efficiency"
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We have a stealth art coming up, which probably has combat applications, Wind Thief. ENM is good for training fade but is probably not needed for stealth build. That said, I would rather work on social instead of stealth next turn as we really should be doing social events with those peers that invited us hunting.
We're not training Wind Thief until we finish crunching SCSs meridians at the very least.
And we just saw what a half baked stealth loadout gets us:
Nothing.
This was mechanically deliberate, as Yrs had mentioned the unbalancing effect of reusable combat stealth turning combat into a one sided mess of just flitting around never being possible to engage. Hence, Stealth had been used mainly in the sense of setup/opening strike unless there are prevailing conditions and distraction...and if its made too easy we SHOULDN'T be able to drop all our fields and then just harass a peer to death from impunity.
Less of an issue in Green due to the proliferation of Perception, Dispelling and AoE arts. And spirits providing Plan Bs.
Same goes for summoning arts. Adds are very hard to balance
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and having enm would not have changed last round at all. +10 stealth isn't big enough of a difference to avoid detection (we used our 1/turn +30 for that) and getting into combat with 3 peers would have killed us even if we could temporarily hide from 1 at a time.
The big problem here is some people want stealth to be a primary thing while others want it to be a side thing. Those that want it to be a side thing are fine with one art dedicated to it which is scs/wind thief. For me the only reason to go enm is for fade, and i would prefer to have a fade art that is more potent.
You know what we could do instead of training another Archive 1 piece of junk?
Work on getting the capstones to our Green 3 arts (CDE, SES, HDW).
Or grab the three levels of PoLR that are available in Green 3.
Or make sure that we are spending the full 8 actions each month on Physical and Spiritual cultivation, instead of missing actions the way we did this last month.
Or put time into condensing meridians on our completed arts, since the opportunity cost of an action is only going to grow higher over time.
Or work on one of the many possibly-Ducal-level arts we just got from the Cai.
Or start training Laughing Flight of the Wind Thief, the Stealth art we picked up in a vision quest from a trio of Local Avatars of Great Spirits.
Or hell, maybe finally train Argent Genesis. It completes in Green 3, and is bound to have permanent bonuses we can use even without equipping it.
We are absolutely spoiled for choice. And with all sorts of valuable and important tasks vying for our attention, the last thing we need to do is go out of our way to pick up something from Archive 1.
Work on getting the capstones to our Green 3 arts (CDE, SES, HDW).
Or grab the three levels of PoLR that are available in Green 3.
Or make sure that we are spending the full 8 actions each month on Physical and Spiritual cultivation, instead of missing actions the way we did this last month.
Or put time into condensing meridians on our completed arts, since the opportunity cost of an action is only going to grow higher over time.
Or work on one of the many possibly-Ducal-level arts we just got from the Cai.
Or start training Laughing Flight of the Wind Thief, the Stealth art we picked up in a vision quest from a trio of Local Avatars of Great Spirits.
Or hell, maybe finally train Argent Genesis. It completes in Green 3, and is bound to have permanent bonuses we can use even without equipping it.
We are absolutely spoiled for choice. And with all sorts of valuable and important tasks vying for our attention, the last thing we need to do is go out of our way to pick up something from Archive 1.
Stealth worked on two of those peers and, I keep having to repeat myself here...
So it would have been 10 plus the bonus to stealth from the tech in addition to resetting their wariness.
As Ling Qi was able to hide herself enough to avoid detection outright, in turn she would have been able to reset the Cloud Tribesmans wariness and thus enable her to continue tracking them with none being the wiser.
Fundamentally, the chilling effect of this vote consisted a hesitation to overreach combined with an awareness of just how close of a call that encounter had been. With ENM we would have had the leeway to, at the very least, track the three of them back to their encampment.
This is an opportunity that we lost due to leaving stealth to lie fallow.
No more.
thats literally nonsense.
SCS and Wind Thief are not stealth arts.
They're movement arts that have additional functionality. If SCS were sufficient, we wouldn't have had that near miss just now. At this point, leaving stealth to be anemic is getting to be constrictive to her overall build and limiting her options.
I'm tired of mediocre results and near misses every time Ling Qi tries to sneak about. Its frustrating and pointless.
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- Location
- At the end of the world
You do really like arguing just for the sake of it aren't you?
0.Enlighten me then plz, how you think narrative combat plays, that would include description of why d-rank tech targeting enemies would be reliable against their S. Avoid every time even no counting probable counter-arts. I think it's more like a gamble.
1.We can train fade even without art for 1 turn it just wouldn't have +1 bonus.
2.I don't see how ENM will help us level up domain more than some other art that have better multipliers.
3.Yes, we can hypothetically spend 1 AP on ENM next turn ...and get Green 1 potency D-rank techs. Or we can spend this 1 AP one turn later to get Green 3 techs, maybe they will even be C-rank. Also you are talking like we aren't going to train ENM+ anyway, which i find funny.
Lol
4.We just need Art with resetting Stealth quality, I am reasonably sure that we can find one if we specifically seek just that.
No, it would have been a chance at resetting their wariness, if stealth is sufficient. Once in combat we get a malus to stealth, so the bonus of enm would have been cancelled out. ENM is great against those we beat normally. The Green 4 nomad we don't beat normally. Also, many of us would have voted against trailing them anyway due to the head of this expedition warning against glory seeking.
Well, to be fair, enm has one of the highest multipliers from what i recall.
oh come off it.
A certain vocal minority have been complaining about any investment in a dedicated stealth art since the start of the thread. "Archive 1 piece of junk" is just the latest excuse to have it go the way of Archery and Formations.
You'd half ass a heavily useful skillset until it falls off entirely, and thats flat out nonsensical.
Well, two things:
1) I actually keep track of what the math cabal discusses
And 2) Literally look at who Im quoting above you.
So uh
You dont speak for the whole thread man, and neither do I. You think its a joke, but theres a very vocal minority that wants to sabotage stealth entirely, so feel free to be an ally of convenience for them when the time comes to vote on next turns plan.
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Huh, just checked the math cabal's cultivation planner and as good as i thought it was ap wise. MNO is the clear winner in ap to xp efficiency. If only it wasn't a spine/ lung art.
Edit: also, from the description i am surprised it is a resist art and not a fade art. Seems like it so easily could have been fade.
Edit: also, from the description i am surprised it is a resist art and not a fade art. Seems like it so easily could have been fade.
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- Location
- At the end of the world
Well, you ignored most of my points, but that is fine. I didn't expect more.
But you are right that nether of us speak for the whole thread.
Also don't point me on people that didn't want to invest in combat stealth build. I am whole heartedly for it. It just we somewhat disagree agree on needed for it steps.
It takes time to actually put together a primer on combat mechanics, and I needed to get to my laptop in order to write it legibly in the first place.
You're welcome.
I mean, neither of us is conceding the point, so why should I drop the argument when you're in the wrong?
Because S-rank stuff is exceptional stuff among exceptions when dealing with peers (Monsters or high level Ducal Scions), or in cases where Ling Qi's trying to punch up against individuals with higher cultivation. Essentially, S-ranks are only a relevant concern in extraordinary circumstances. In the case of B or even A ranked perception after activating their Arts, however, the bonuses from ENM in conjunction with SCS's own buffs to stealth and Vanishing's own base B score mean we'd be able to reliably beat most perception checks, and under more ideal environmental factors that give Ling Qi a bonus to stealth, A-rank perception can be beaten as well in order to reset their awareness. Those are the tiers we're going to be confronted with on a regular basis. We won't be willingly trying to pick a fight with Cultivators much stronger than Ling Qi, and we won't be trying to pick fights with Ducal Scions either since thats what Renxiang and Meizhen are for. For everything else, however, consistently beating out B and A rank perception is what we should aim for. In that regard, ENM will be sufficient for pure infiltration.
When considering the numerous Perception filter techniques that Ling Qi relies upon in FVM, Zhenguis Ashfall, Hanyi's own Arts, and PLR, that bar will be lowered even further so as to enable more free movement across the battlefield, or at least a substantially better chance at avoiding attacks when in actual combat, enabling ENM to still be relevant even then.
Plus synergy with:
Successful resets of awareness debuff an opponents effective perception. As indicated here:
Which keys off Hit (Something which ENM specifically buffs) and enemy Avoid
For the record. A hit of 15 to enemy Avoid is nearly half a rank up through A. So, barring circumstances where we're dealing with S-rank Avoid...That reset to Unaware status will constitute a powerful debuff for whenever Ling Qi would attack. In additional to potential multi-attacker penalties or-
Being able to abuse OwS to enter melee range for a finisher with Call to Ending.
Hope that helps.
Which would be inefficient, a problem that I've pointed out repeatedly with your suggested approach.
Oh?
We can get 500 successes per Art training action now? How's the math on that work?
Or we could just use the one we have now that keys off our Wind and Darkness cultivation bonuses and our wind-aligned cultivation site for extremely speedy progress.
Seems simple enough to me.
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- Location
- United States of America
I'm going to approach this discussion in a different way. I'm most concerned about our ability to dodge spiritual attacks, specifically fade. We have legitimately terrible fade, which is compensated slightly by our very nice manipulation. In fact, we have no arts learned or equipped which promote the keyword fade. I see this as a problem. We will be much better at avoiding spiritual attacks if we are able to pump fade up to a decent level.
So, turning to the list of our unlearned arts, we have exactly three which have the keyword fade.
ENM and DLS are both from the 1st level of archives. VRKG is from the Cai art list. This means that, unless we really want to spend ap to do another archive dig soon, these are the three arts we have to really enable our fade in the short term. Now, we can have an argument regarding whether we need to improve our fade in the short term, but I see that as a separate discussion. I'm approaching this post with my assumption that we want to improve our fade, preferably in the short term.
So, the first one I'm going to tackle is VRKG. I have a bais against the art, and as such I don't particularly like it. It does have nice passives for three things we like, dodge, spiritual avoid, and speed, but the active techs just do not seem like a good use of our time. Counter attacks are nice if we wanted to be the focus of someone's attention, but I would rather have Zhengui fill that role. Furthermore, this art will push us even further into water being our first pure water art. Additionally, it uses fairly valuable lung and spine meridians.
So, while VRKG is likely an art of superior quality over ENM and DLS, I don't think it is the art we want for boosting up our fade.
That leaves, for me at least, ENM and DLS. In the vein of working backward, I'm going to discuss DLS next.
DLS is a stealth/spiritual dodge art, with some actual spiritual armor as well. I will admit, it has some really nice thematic synergy with our vanish skill by tieing in the ability to disperse one's spirit beyond the confines of the body (exactly what vanish seems to do). This art seems to be much more focused on defending oneself from spiritual attacks, but it does have a couple of downsides. It takes a lot of spine meridians. Which, for us, are fairly valuable at the moment. Furthermore, it doesn't actually seem to add anything to our stealth kit other than making our numbers bigger. Which, while nice, isn't as nice as enabling more and different uses from the same skill.
The last one is ENM. ENM seems to be an art that is stealth/spiritual avoid/spiritual hit/speed. Not entirely sure why the speed is there, to be honest, but it might come into play later and I will not say no to more speed. ENM seems to make us harder to hit with spiritual attacks by making it simply harder to maintain concentration on us. The major benefit to ENM is that it enables us to leverage our stealth in more and better ways. I'm not too enthused with its feint technique, to be honest, but it could be useful in delivering a final blow in a pinch. It does, however, have themes that make some people uneasy, especially with the manipulating of the memory. While it does use some valuable leg meridians, it also uses arm meridians which, let's be honest, are almost worthless to us right now.
So, if we have a priority of pumping up our fade (which I think we should) then these are the three arts we have. VRKG compounds on our defenses and enables counters, which, while neat, is not something I'm looking for. The other two options promote fade and stealth, just differently. The way I see it, if we want to focus on the defensive aspects of spiritual avoid and roll the dice to see what synergies exist between our stealth and DLS's version of spiritual avoid, then DLS is the way to go. However, if we want to leverage stealth to be a better more useful tool in more situations while also improving our spiritual avoid, than ENM is likely our best bet.
Another option is, of course, not having fade as a priority. But I feel that this post is already too long as it is to have a proper discussion regarding whether fade should be a priority or not.
So, turning to the list of our unlearned arts, we have exactly three which have the keyword fade.
ENM and DLS are both from the 1st level of archives. VRKG is from the Cai art list. This means that, unless we really want to spend ap to do another archive dig soon, these are the three arts we have to really enable our fade in the short term. Now, we can have an argument regarding whether we need to improve our fade in the short term, but I see that as a separate discussion. I'm approaching this post with my assumption that we want to improve our fade, preferably in the short term.
So, the first one I'm going to tackle is VRKG. I have a bais against the art, and as such I don't particularly like it. It does have nice passives for three things we like, dodge, spiritual avoid, and speed, but the active techs just do not seem like a good use of our time. Counter attacks are nice if we wanted to be the focus of someone's attention, but I would rather have Zhengui fill that role. Furthermore, this art will push us even further into water being our first pure water art. Additionally, it uses fairly valuable lung and spine meridians.
So, while VRKG is likely an art of superior quality over ENM and DLS, I don't think it is the art we want for boosting up our fade.
That leaves, for me at least, ENM and DLS. In the vein of working backward, I'm going to discuss DLS next.
DLS is a stealth/spiritual dodge art, with some actual spiritual armor as well. I will admit, it has some really nice thematic synergy with our vanish skill by tieing in the ability to disperse one's spirit beyond the confines of the body (exactly what vanish seems to do). This art seems to be much more focused on defending oneself from spiritual attacks, but it does have a couple of downsides. It takes a lot of spine meridians. Which, for us, are fairly valuable at the moment. Furthermore, it doesn't actually seem to add anything to our stealth kit other than making our numbers bigger. Which, while nice, isn't as nice as enabling more and different uses from the same skill.
The last one is ENM. ENM seems to be an art that is stealth/spiritual avoid/spiritual hit/speed. Not entirely sure why the speed is there, to be honest, but it might come into play later and I will not say no to more speed. ENM seems to make us harder to hit with spiritual attacks by making it simply harder to maintain concentration on us. The major benefit to ENM is that it enables us to leverage our stealth in more and better ways. I'm not too enthused with its feint technique, to be honest, but it could be useful in delivering a final blow in a pinch. It does, however, have themes that make some people uneasy, especially with the manipulating of the memory. While it does use some valuable leg meridians, it also uses arm meridians which, let's be honest, are almost worthless to us right now.
So, if we have a priority of pumping up our fade (which I think we should) then these are the three arts we have. VRKG compounds on our defenses and enables counters, which, while neat, is not something I'm looking for. The other two options promote fade and stealth, just differently. The way I see it, if we want to focus on the defensive aspects of spiritual avoid and roll the dice to see what synergies exist between our stealth and DLS's version of spiritual avoid, then DLS is the way to go. However, if we want to leverage stealth to be a better more useful tool in more situations while also improving our spiritual avoid, than ENM is likely our best bet.
Another option is, of course, not having fade as a priority. But I feel that this post is already too long as it is to have a proper discussion regarding whether fade should be a priority or not.
Except he can be ignored,
He just doesn't have a real taunt. We saw that with the BINO fight.
In a perfect world you'd be right, but Zhengui just can't taunt yet. I've also said this elsewhere, but River King's counters are our answer to Dissonance falling out in the absence of FVM+ for our action economy superiority.
We just need something able to hit back against folks while Ling Qi's in the middle of setting up her AoE music effects.
- Location
- California
On Discord, we're planning on doing some of these things next turn regardless of whether we choose to train ENM. There are also good reasons why we're not considering some of the others. We're not skipping Physical cultivation again anytime soon, and we're still planning to reach Bronze 5 before the tournament. We are also planning to train Argent Genesis next turn. We can't train LFWT until we reach Bronze 3 since it's gated by physical cultivation. Scrunching meridians is not a good idea unless you know you're going to get a successor art, as the AP spent scrunching will be wasted when the art is unequipped.
In my opinion, it is very unlikely for the Cai arts to be Ducal level. Training arts like UGM or SNR is an option, as is training PLR or finishing SES (we're finishing CDE and scrunching its meridians this turn). The plans most popular on Discord involve some combination of training ENM, finishing HDW, and/or archive diving for a social art (or stealth art depending on the plan specifics). The largest holes in our build are our lack of options for training Fade, inability to use stealth well in combat, and lack of a decent social suite. The consensus seems to be that focusing on these issues is more important next turn than training other arts.
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- Location
- Canada
He can kinda attract aggression, with techniques like Ashfall, Vengeful Serpent Fangs, and Roiling Forest Regrowth
Rather than simply taunting, Zhengui acts more like an area denial unit or zone of control, where he can be a pretty big hindrance for an enemy to fight near
The main problem in the BINO fight was that he isn't very mobile and his ability to support from afar is borderline nil
He also lacks punch comparatively, but that's less of an issue
- Location
- At the end of the world
Even Beast Kings' Savage Dirge starts with 300 successes, where did you see 500?
Zhengui's woes are threefold:
1) We're a flying, highly mobile ranged combatant, he's a grounded fortress.
In scenarios where we're fighting at altitude(like right now), he's unable to support or draw aggro simply because we don't have the option to deploy him.
This has a number of workarounds, Zhengui already has ranged moves, and he only needs to improve on them...though even if he can't fly I wonder if some kind of talisman to generate platforms under him might work...
2) His control zones are relatively small and ally-unfriendly. This isn't a problem in a duel environment where the opponent must defeat US, but its very poor for defending an objective.
This probably would be easier to fix by improving Hanyi. Her taunts are powerful if she wasn't well...weak and damaged.
3) His ability to force attacks onto himself is weak. He can incentivize it, but Ling Qi's threat profile is high enough that nobody would ever attack him over her with a 'soft' taunt method.
He needs a 'hard' taunt which works whether or not the enemy cooperates. Fortunately we've seen such a trick with Xuan Shi, if Zhengui can FORCE attacks or their consequences to hit him then it doesn't matter if he can't reach the enemy, they must down him to do anything.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well if we get good that stealth then Zhengui can make a great distraction.
- Location
- California
Based on the description here, it seems perception determines what state enemies are in initially, but it doesn't follow that perception is debuffed when enemy awareness is reset.