Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Diomedea · Jul 7, 2019

Varder said:
Ah, I see, thanks; it seems like I misinterpreted unsure as "is anyone there at all" type of thing.

This isn't the first time there has been confusion over the stealth states.

Unready is the highest level of stealth. Ling Qi's opponent is unready for combat, and is going about their day to day stuff, or they don't have any suspicion of Ling Qi's presence at all (backstab during pre-fight staredown with CRX for example)

Next level down is Unaware. They know stuff is going down, but are unaware Ling Qi is a salient threat. They'll have caught on someone is sneaking about, or noticed the mist or other AoE effect, but Ling Qi hasn't engaged them directly.

Lowest level of stealth is unsure. They know Ling Qi is around doing the stealth thing, but are unsure of her exact position. They're on guard enough they're keeping an eye out for the backstab, but they don't have Ling Qi's exact position pegged.

In context of ENM in a team fight, they're busy engaging their opponent, for this example say CRX. Ling Qi's big AoE stuff is out, but they've not spotted her as the source. They probably know she's around somewhere, but are focused on their fight with CRX because it's foolish to take her lightly.

So they're unaware, since they don't know Ling Qi is intervening in their particular part of the team battle.

LQ pops in and hits the opponent with an attack, then uses ENM to disengage. If Ling Qi pulls off her stealth check, then the opponent is slightly disoriented and still focused on fighting CRX, having lost that moment where Ling Qi attacked. Normally, they'd remember it was LQ who dinged them, and shift to "fighting CRX and stealth support" (unsure), but ENM makes them lose grasp on LQ, so they instead fill it in with "Fighting CRX and she just used a strange tech to ding me" (shift back to unaware). They're still not looking for the backstab, because they've forgotten they were backstabbed and think they were instead front stabbed.

LQ repeats this until another person/spirit on the opposing team intervenes, or the opponent spends time triggering an active perception tech to figure out what exactly CRX is doing to them because they're not quite catching it, and LQ fails her stealth check. We're unlikely to get more than a few rounds of it working against the same target, but HR with a follow up CtE just requires LQ to pull a reset off once.

CrimsonOddball · Jul 7, 2019

Ayashi said:
That is not necessarily true.
IRL Mount Everest is fully inside the Earth's Atmosphere and yet a significant part of it's peak is just not livable. As in you literally can not breath enough air to remain at that altitude for more than a few hours, assuming decent physical state. Heck, i doubt the average couch potato could even last a few hours...

yrsillar said:
At the very highest peaks, where the sky began to grow dark, and the faintest twinkle of starlight peaked through, even Ling Qi did not linger long. There was no air fit for breath there, and even the world's qi grew thin, making her skin prickle uncomfortably

Given that the sky is becoming dark and stars can be seen in the midst of day I think it's safe to say these mountains are just a tad taller than Everest
It sounds like they're starting to reach into the stratosphere and the air is becoming hard to breathe for her because it's becoming ozone

Varder · Jul 7, 2019

TehChron said:
At its first level, yeah.

Jreengus said:
I wasn't talking about the vanishing skill, Varder basically made the exact point I meant to but better.

TehChron said:
Not sure I get you mean there.

It's a nonsensical point either way you dress it up.

Varder said:
Pick on or the other, you can't claim the point is nonsensial and then proceed to tell that it's correct within used parameters.

TehChron said:
Literally what

I think I was pretty clear xD

TehChron · Jul 7, 2019

Varder said:
I think I was pretty clear xD

???

You seem confused.

I said your argument was nonsensical no matter how you dressed it up. And then elaborated on why that was nonsensical when you took umbrage with my pointing that out.

You snipping the context of one of my posts doesn't change that fact.

Black Noise · Jul 7, 2019

Diomedon said:
This isn't the first time there has been confusion over the stealth states.

Unready is the highest level of stealth. Ling Qi's opponent is unready for combat, and is going about their day to day stuff, or they don't have any suspicion of Ling Qi's presence at all (backstab during pre-fight staredown with CRX for example)

Next level down is Unaware. They know stuff is going down, but are unaware Ling Qi is a salient threat. They'll have caught on someone is sneaking about, or noticed the mist or other AoE effect, but Ling Qi hasn't engaged them directly.

Lowest level of stealth is unsure. They know Ling Qi is around doing the stealth thing, but are unsure of her exact position. They're on guard enough they're keeping an eye out for the backstab, but they don't have Ling Qi's exact position pegged.

In context of ENM in a team fight, they're busy engaging their opponent, for this example say CRX. Ling Qi's big AoE stuff is out, but they've not spotted her as the source. They probably know she's around somewhere, but are focused on their fight with CRX because it's foolish to take her lightly.

So they're unaware, since they don't know Ling Qi is intervening in their particular part of the team battle.

LQ pops in and hits the opponent with an attack, then uses ENM to disengage. If Ling Qi pulls off her stealth check, then the opponent is slightly disoriented and still focused on fighting CRX, having lost that moment where Ling Qi attacked. Normally, they'd remember it was LQ who dinged them, and shift to "fighting CRX and stealth support," but ENM makes them lose grasp on LQ, so they instead fill it in with "Fighting CRX and she just used a strange tech to ding me." They're still not looking for the backstab, because they've forgotten they were backstabbed and think they were instead front stabbed.

LQ repeats this until another person on the opposing team intervenes, or the opponent spends time triggering an active perception tech to figure out what exactly CRX is doing to them because they're not quite catching it, and LQ fails her stealth check. We're unlikely to get more than a few rounds of it working against the same target, but HR with a follow up CtE just requires LQ to pull a reset off once.

To put the stealth thing in mechanical terms for those of us who can't be arsed to read the tutorial (or missed clarifying WoG):

Unready: Stealth Rank > Perception Rank + Enemy doesn't know they're in combat
- massive avoid debuff (-30), stacks with Unaware (total of -45)
- enemy can't use a Response tech for the first attack targeting them
- single-time condition only available if we're initiating an ambush (barring art bullshit stronger than what we've seen from ENM so far)
Unaware: Stealth Rank > Perception Rank + Normal Combat
- Big avoid debuff (-15)
Unsure: Stealth Rank = Perception Rank + Normal Combat
- Small Avoid debuff (-5)
No Stealth: Stealth Rank < Perception Rank
- For completion sake, if we can't at least match rank we're better off not even trying to go into stealth.

In addition:

The other major benefit besides the enemy avoid debuff is immunity to single-target attacks (unless explicitly bypassing this).
Once we break stealth, there is a big malus associated with having been detected which makes re-entering stealth harder.
- If we had enough of an advantage for Unaware to apply we can get downgraded to Unsure even without extra perception effects from the enemy.
- The ability to reset this malus is what makes ENM so strong; it basically enables effective combat stealth.
Presumably situational modifiers like having a big distraction on the field (like CRX or Zhengui) can help us with stealth numbers too so we can maintain the 1+ rank advantage even against strong peers.

ETA: There's also arts that give additional benefits for having a stealth advantage; SCS gives +10 hit vs Unaware targets for example.

Huo Yuhao · Jul 7, 2019

Huo Yuhao Last Friday at 8:50 PM
@Yrsillar Can you let us know exactly how the vanishing skill works? Can we use it in combat such that we are not able to be targeted by some attacks for a certain period? Also, can we enter normal stealth from a Vanished state, considering our opponents will not know where we are? Are there any limits to movement or the arts we can use while Vanished? Do we know how long it lasts?

Yrsillar Last Friday at 8:51 PM
mechanically it functions the same as your stealth skill did

Yrsillar Last Friday at 8:51 PM
just higher ranked and with maybe a bit more utility
youd still need arts to develop it further

Based on this, I'm not sure we can actually use Vanishing to make enemies unsure in battle without using the same mechanics as before to enter stealth.

me.me.here · Jul 7, 2019

Varder said:
I think I was pretty clear xD

The issue is that when @TehChron provided evidence on how ENM interacts with Stealth statuses in open engagements he quoted a text box that included both ENM being used as well as the Vanishing skill. @Jreengus then thought he was referring to the vanishing skill acting rather than ENM and tried to call him on it, which @TehChron rejected as nonsensical. Then you and TehChron both conflated your argument and Jreengus', which has lead to the point of you defending your argument while TehChron attacks Jreengus'.

This has been a short post intended to clear misunderstandings, feel free to continue arguing with each other. Preferably without involving me further.

Black Noise · Jul 7, 2019

Huo Yuhao said:
Based on this, I'm not sure we can actually use Vanishing to make enemies unsure in battle without using the same mechanics as before to enter stealth.

Missed the better quote afterwards:

Erebeal Yesterday at 5:51 AM
@Yrsillar , I assume that Vanishing is really a stealth skill, and if we want good larceny then we'll need to train up a second advanced skill for that?

Yrsillar Yesterday at 6:02 AM
Yes, its basically 'hide' but gussied up with a chuuni name
and aesthetics

EDIT: also mechanically it should just be a better skill but fluff does fudge things (or allow for it), and Vanishing can have some very nice synergy with our Intangible and Dream themed arts.

Huo Yuhao · Jul 7, 2019

Black Noise said:
Missed the better quote afterwards:

EDIT: also mechanically it should just be a better skill but fluff does fudge things (or allow for it), and Vanishing can have some very nice synergy with our Intangible and Dream themed arts.

Huh, I did somehow miss that. Erebeal actually posted that just one hour before I posted my own questions, so my questions ended up being somewhat redundant.

TehChron · Jul 7, 2019

me.me.here said:
Then you and TehChron both conflated your argument and Jreengus'

Actually Jreengus did that himself.

Its the reason why I said it was nonsensical however it got phrased.

Joseph0o0 · Jul 7, 2019

It just feels like It's been a while since we've been able to successfully re-hide from a pier mid combat and I don't know how I feel about learning an art based on that. But I could be remembering wrong so I'll leave most of the build planing to you guys

Huo Yuhao · Jul 7, 2019

Joseph0o0 said:
It just feels like It's been a while since we've been able to successfully re-hide from a pier mid combat and I don't know how I feel about learning an art based on that. But I could be remembering wrong so I'll leave most of the build planing to you guys

One of the main purposes of ENM is to make the strategy of hiding from peers mid-combat viable in the first place. It's often difficult to enter stealth in combat due to the way it works mechanically. As a result, a significant portion of our build isn't being used once combat has started. ENM's techniques help resolve this issue by making it much easier to do this and to stay in stealth mid-combat.

FakePriest · Jul 7, 2019

Huo Yuhao said:
One of the main purposes of ENM is to make the strategy of hiding from peers mid-combat viable in the first place. It's often difficult to enter stealth in combat due to the way it works mechanically. As a result, a significant portion of our build isn't being used once combat has started. ENM's techniques help resolve this issue by making it much easier to do this and to stay in stealth mid-combat.

Combat stealth sounds good, but I think we need something better than ENM, with it's Green 1-3 potency and D-rank techs, for this strategy to work, maybe some ENM+ from Archive 3? Because I really doubt that Passing Phantom or Evening Breeze Flourish as they are now would work on someone like Ji Rong.

TehChron · Jul 7, 2019

FakePriest said:
Combat stealth sounds good, but I think we need something better than ENM, with it's Green 1-3 potency and D-rank techs, for this strategy to work, maybe some ENM+ from Archive 3?

No, it works as is with regular ENM.

Vanish means that its going to benefit from our advanced Stealth into wariness. And by the time we actually train it to max the potency will go up. That stuff always does. Even with SCS alone it'd be a fairly ridiculous setup. Having that combined with Wind Thief's own enhanced focus on mobility and stealth will let her exploit that "D-rank tech" for an extreme advantage, especially in combat stealth.

Ling Qi only needs a moment to abuse that shadow teleport, after all.

The sooner we get that done the better as well, given the possibility of a successor Art with Archive 3. Which we really shouldnt have a reason to bother with before accessing it gets discounted further.

larkins · Jul 7, 2019

Huo Yuhao said:
One of the main purposes of ENM is to make the strategy of hiding from peers mid-combat viable in the first place. It's often difficult to enter stealth in combat due to the way it works mechanically. As a result, a significant portion of our build isn't being used once combat has started. ENM's techniques help resolve this issue by making it much easier to do this and to stay in stealth mid-combat.

How much of the build's effectiveness is lost out of stealth? And wouldn't improving stealth just make Ling Qi more dependent on it?

On the other hand... this anti-memetic stuff plays into Ling Qi the tomb raiding horror wraith (my preference) just as much as it plays into Ling Qi the fortress scouting rogue (not my favorite), so maybe everyone can be happy.

TehChron · Jul 7, 2019

larkins said:
How much of the build's effectiveness is lost out of stealth?

None, because ENM and Vanish together make re-entering stealth a fairly simple matter.

Given how much Ling Qi likes abusing Perception Filters, this makes her completely ridiculous when combined with her existing death field effects or having huge ass distractions like Zhengui for example.

FakePriest · Jul 7, 2019

TehChron said:
No, it works as is with regular ENM.

Vanish means that its going to benefit from our advanced Stealth into wariness. And by the time we actually train it to max the potency will go up. That stuff always does. Even with SCS alone it'd be a fairly ridiculous setup. Having that combined with Wind Thief's own enhanced focus on mobility and stealth will let her exploit that "D-rank tech" for an extreme advantage, especially in combat stealth.

Ling Qi only needs a moment to abuse that shadow teleport, after all.

The sooner we get that done the better as well, given the possibility of a successor Art with Archive 3. Which we really shouldnt have a reason to bother with before accessing it gets discounted further.

The way you phrasing is confusing. Ok, lets see if i understand correctly.
1.Power of techs depend on their rank and potency, for Passing Phantom it maybe would be enough if we have really good stealth modifiers, but Evening Breeze Flourish target enemy, it wouldn't work on our true peers.
2.Access to Archive 3 costs us 20 points. We get 60 helping Xuan Shi, at the rate we are progressing it would be several more turns to get reduced cost ...on 10, or maybe 15 points. Looks like quite a waste of time.
3.ENM max potency is Green 3, that we will reach at the end of this turn. I didn't see a reason why we can't just search for Art that will have the same qualities but will start at Green 3 instead of ending. It's not like we can't train ENM+ like Art without mastering ENM first.

larkins · Jul 7, 2019

TehChron said:
None, because ENM and Vanish together make re-entering stealth a fairly simple matter.

Given how much Ling Qi likes abusing Perception Filters, this makes her completely ridiculous when combined with her existing death field effects or having huge ass distractions like Zhengui for example.

I was asking about how things are right now... I thought we didn't have ENM. Was I wrong?

Huo Yuhao · Jul 7, 2019

larkins said:
I was asking about how things are right now... I thought we didn't have ENM. Was I wrong?

We might as well have zero stealth in combat considering how rarely it comes into play. It's been useful in a number of situations outside of combat, but we pretty much never use it once combat has already started. Becoming more dependent on stealth is the point. Since our stealth is fairly high, taking advantage of it in battle should make us significantly stronger overall.

TehChron · Jul 7, 2019

FakePriest said:
The way you phrasing is confusing. Ok, lets see if i understand correctly.
1.Power of techs depend on their rank and potency, for Passing Phantom it maybe would be enough if we have really good stealth modifiers, but Evening Breeze Flourish target enemy, it wouldn't work on our true peers.

Because stealth modifiers, and most people dont go around with Perception techs active. And as we saw in the most recent update, Ling Qi's stealth is currently at the level where Perception techs from ostensible peers just doesnt match up. There are tiers between "Average" and "Ducal-tier" and Ling Qi's own skills edge far closer to the latter end of that scale

EBF is a very obvious song, by contrast. It's not stealthy, or even subtle.

FakePriest said:
2.Access to Archive 3 costs us 20 points. We get 60 helping Xuan Shi, at the rate we are progressing it would be several more turns to get reduced cost ...on 10, or maybe 15 points. Looks like quite a waste of time.

Or we could use those successes for Domain and the points on pills instead, while also benefiting Art to train Fade with.

Which is a much better use of AP than a random Sect Job to replace those lost Sect Points with marginal monetary gains or the exploration roulette.

FakePriest said:
3.ENM max potency is Green 3, that we will reach at the end of this turn. I didn't see a reason why we can't just search for Art that will have the same qualities but will start at Green 3 instead of ending. It's not like we can't train ENM+ like Art without mastering ENM first.

Because we can crunch its Meridians and it'll get mastered quickly relative to the crazy jump that higher potency Arts require in terms of successes. This is a quick and easy way to bring Ling Qi's entire stealth paradigm quickly and neatly into place, and thus open up tons of new options for her in combat and infiltration.

You may as well say that CDE was pointless to learn because we reached Green 3 at the end of this turn.

It's nonsense. We're going to be a while before we hit Green 4, so what's the big deal in leveling an Art that will be relevant for as long as we're at that stage? I'll say it again: If we had trained ENM before now, we could have safely taken the second option in this vote.

Who knows how many other opportunities Ling Qi might miss in the mean time?

larkins said:
I was asking about how things are right now... I thought we didn't have ENM. Was I wrong?

We have access to it, but its not trained, no.

Huo Yuhao said:
We might as well have zero stealth in combat considering how rarely it comes into play. It's been useful in a number of situations outside of combat, but we pretty much never use it once combat has already started. Becoming more dependent on stealth is the point. Since our stealth is fairly high, taking advantage of it in battle should make us significantly stronger overall.

ENM's ability to gel together Ling Qi's Stealth and her Music more consistently in combat makes her extremely more deadly.

Even if she can't consistently outstealth those who are at her level or stronger, it still makes her much more deadly by virtue of the second tech's ability to give a straight up opening for Ling Qi to exploit.

Which will do wonders for her being able to tag people with HRC and then CtE against serious opponents.

Huo Yuhao · Jul 7, 2019

TehChron said:
Because we can crunch its Meridians and it'll get mastered quickly relative to the crazy jump that higher potency Arts require in terms of successes. This is a quick and easy way to bring Ling Qi's entire stealth paradigm quick neatly into place, and thus open up tons of new options for her.

You may as well say that ENM and CDE were pointless to learn because we reached Green 3 at the end of this turn.

It's nonsense. We're going to be a while before we hit Green 4, so what's the big deal in leveling an Art that will be relevant for as long as we're at that stage?

Expanding on this, ENM is currently among our fastest training arts and doesn't require additional meridians. Depending on how long we delay ENM's replacement and the art cultivation bonuses we obtain in the future, it's possible we won't actually lose AP in the long run.

Joseph0o0 · Jul 7, 2019

I feel we my want to see if we can even vanish mid combat before we start talking about training arts that requires we vanish mid combat.

uiopion · Jul 7, 2019

Joseph0o0 said:
I feel we my want to see if we can even vanish mid combat before we start talking about training arts that requires we vanish mid combat.

What part of the last page of discussion of stealth mechanics (with one post now bookmarked as informational) going over how this is not possible was not understandable?

Joseph0o0 · Jul 7, 2019

uiopion said:
What part of the last page of discussion of stealth mechanics (with one post now bookmarked as informational) going over how this is not possible was not understandable?

I missed the information post I was at work. But we still need to pass a combat stealth check to use EMN and its been a while since we've managed that against anyone of note. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I'm against it completely and I'm still new to the group so I'm probably missing something.

TehChron · Jul 7, 2019

Joseph0o0 said:
I missed the information post I was at work. But we still need to pass a combat stealth check to use EMN and its been a while since we've managed that against anyone of note. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I'm against it completely and I'm still new to the group so I'm probably missing something.

You are.

Specifically that your standards are way too high and in Diomedons hypothetical scenario we'll have Zhengui and Hanyi to fulfill the role of distraction.

Given that our Advanced Stealth Skill is literally "Vanishing" this is as close as we're going to get in terms of skills and Arts. Ever.

Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

A piece of the continent

Tired Cultist

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