Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Turn 18: Arc 6-4
"I have a question. I would prefer to ask it now, when we are each only ourselves. In the quiet of this temple glade," Ling Qi asked after a long moment of deliberation and silence.

Dzintara peered at her suspiciously, and then glanced to Jaromila, who retained her encouraging smile. "...I take your meaning, Emissary, and will listen in that spirit."

"Will it be possible to negotiate with you and yours for the rites which may keep your Goddesses wrath away from their civilians? Or at least rituals through which she or they may be propiated?"

The other Emissary's nostrils flared, and she looked unhappy. Her jaw worked for a moment before she replied. "I am pleased that you asked this in a calm environment."

She didn't sound pleased at all.

"I get it you know," Sixiang said. "But yeah I gotta admit, nobody is gonna be happy getting attacked all the time, especially if they have a face to assign blame too."

"That is true, but I understand that the Axemother's lodges would be difficult to convince." Jaromila said.

"I only ask if this is something that can be brought up as an item of negotiation. I am not asking for a gift," Ling Qi replied.

"I understand this," Dzintara said, turning swiftly her cloak flapped as she strode of to the stone altar set into the half circle of trees. She was silent for a good while.

"It is possible. Possible with sufficient concessions. The warding runes placed upon settlement walls are not a…. Deep secret."

Ling Qi let out a breath. "I see, thank you very much. I am sure we can come to an agreement."

"We will see," Dzintara said, looking back at her.

"It is a good matter to bring up here," Jaromila said. "Anything which touches on the power of the priesthoods is… fraught.

"That was what led me to the question, Ling Qi said. "I-"

"This old man will bear the words, if the Emissaries allow it."

None of them startled. They were all to poised for that. But she saw Jaromila's hand twitch toward her belt, and Dzintara's teeth clench. Her own qi rose, poised to rush out in a tide of mist before she clamped down on it.

An old man in a cloak of crow feathers stood between two of the trees in the shrine. Stepping gingerly down the roots, leaned onto a gnarled wooden cane, she could almost believe he really was just a doddering old man.

"Revered One," Jaromila said, recovering first. "It is surprising for you to join us."

"The young ones argument was loud, my stroll only brought me to it," the scruffy old man said, reaching the base of the tree roots, he leaned heavily on his walking stick.

"Old Crow, do you agree with this notion?" Dzintara asked. Her expression was stiff.

"It is my notion that the old should argue with the old," the Crow said. "It is less fraught. The runes you speak of are low things. It is the opinion of the Tower that a few such trinkets can be negotiated, if bought fairly."

"Then I will allow you to carry those words to the mother's as you have asked," Dzintara said.

Ling Qi observed trying to judge the etiquette here.

"Seems like no one is going to tell the old man off, so I guess they can go where they like," Sixiang murmured.

The general attitude was less submission than she would expect toward a higher cultivator, but Ling Qi could see the respect still. Still 'allow' him to carry the words. Really, and Dzintara accused them of being difficult to decipher.

"That was the only item I still wished to bring up on my side. What is it that the Twisted Pine, the Western White Sky, might ask of us?" Ling Qi said politely.

"That you not push into our mountains that our realm is recognized, and clear agreements on tolls and travel, even if they may not matter immediately," Dzintara said.

"And of course, a clear method to resolve disputes on what we lay out here, as such must inevitably rise," Jaromila said.

"Yes," Dzintara agreed, glancing toward the old man.

"I understand, Ling Qi said. "...Should I go now, and give you more freedom to discuss?"

"I am unneeded, though if the Emissary's wish to talk, this old man will escort our guest."

Sixiang leaned out over her shoulder, scrutinizing him. "He's pretty weird. Can feel him on both sides of the line. Wonder if he wants to chat about me?"

Ling Qi wondered too.

"If Emissary Ling is comfortable with this," Jaromila said slowly.

She considered that. Was she? She did not suspect foul play. Not here, it would gain them nothing and even this Crow, seemingly fifth realm would not get away with violence, not when…

Her eyes fell on her own shadow, stretched out behind her.It was perhaps darker than it should be.

"Yes, that would be fine. Honored Elder, I would be pleased to be escorted by you," Ling Qi said.

"Then I wish you well. Let us meet soon in the hall we are raising together," Jaromila said.

Dzintara's eyes were on the Old Crow's back as he stepped slowly over to Ling Qi's side, her brows furrowed in contemplation. When she sensed Ling Qi's gaze the fierce looking woman gave her a terse nod. "I look forward to resolving this all."

"As do. I wish you good days, until then," Ling Qi said. "Shall we go, Honored Elder."

Sixiang remained half material, clinging to her shoulder, drifting away into mist from the waist down. Their coal black eyes were narrowed, examining the old man. Their thoughts brushed, and Ling Qi sensed more curiosity than wariness.

"Yes," rasped the old man. "This way, young one."

They left the hill behind, Jaromila and Dzintara passing from view. They walked in silence, only the rustle of her gown in the wind and clack of his cane against the ground breaking the natural atmosphere.

"So like, what is going on old timer. You know I'm not some spooky demon, right?" Sixiang asked flippantly.

"You are no demon, but you are a frightening figment, of the kind that draws young fools to destroy themselves when they peer too deep into sleep."

"People are dangerous, they may do truly cruel things with little rhyme or reason. Spirit's I find are fickle, but no more so than men," Ling Qi said. "So Sir, I will ask that you not be rude to my companion."

The old man peered at her with his single eye, the empty socket matching it as black as Sixiang's eyes. "Agreed. Still, a question, if you will indulge."

Ling Qi inclined her head. Sixiang tilted theirs.

"How did you come to fear death, figment of chaos?"

Sixiang flinched, half ducking back behind her. Ling Qi gave them a concerned look. She remembered, a year back now one of the first real conversations she had with Sixiang, trying to make the spirit understand death, and what it meant to humans. She thought of everything that had transpired. She thoughts she knew the answer. But Ling Qi also thought it was Sixiang's to answer, if they liked.

"Attachment," Sixiang said after a moment. "That's what did me in. Sixiang has things that the next dream will not, no matter how much or little of me is in it. I want those things."

Knowing what they were talking about, Ling Qi still felt a little uncomfortable. She had not thought about it. Had avoided thinking about it really, even before less platonic elements had come up. Sixiang was not human. Knowing that their entire conception of self preservation was based on Ling Qi herself…

This was why she wanted Sixiang to go out, to make other attachments. Because she was human still, and that was too much for her. She felt trepidation where their thoughts touched. Sixiang didn't understand why it discomitted her, but they did recognize it at least.

"So simple as that," said the Crow, slowly shaking his head. "Young Emissary. You are changing your ice, molding it. You have told me that you have met Her, the Crone. Yet you are walking away from her. Is it fear? Of Ending, of Death?"

Ling Qi pursed her lips. "Only a little. Rather, I would share something she said to me, that I have come to think is right."

"Oh?"

"There is no need for humans to worry over final endings, that void at the end of everything," Ling Qi smiled, paraphrasing. "When we do, its almost always just an excuse to sulk."

"Concern for the future is foolish then?"

"No, but there is a difference I think between concern for those to come and willfully ignoring the present," Ling Qi said.

"Always looking so far ahead that you ignore the crunches and screams underfoot. Not a good look that," Sixiang said wryly. "...I'm still a creature of the present you know. I gotta agree with my girl."

She'd thought on it, thought on the Duchess and on Renxiang. The girl she had first met in the Outer Sect might have been someone whose eyes were fixed too far ahead. She didn't think Renxiang was the same anymore. The Duchess… she didn't know. Only Renxiang could.

"It is easy to sacrifice, against the World's Ending, but there are many worlds, most of them small indeed," the Crow said, his twisted crutch tapped against the ground in time with their steps as they walked under the slowly setting sun, north toward the chokepoint. Who is to say which is worth more."

"Someone will, someone must," Ling Qi said. "We are the only ones who can judge. The Great Spirits are even less suited to such judgements than we are."

The one high above, looking down on tiny things they can barely see. How good could such judgment ever be?

"Getting poetic there. Maybe I should have left you to write all the replies a while ago?" Sixiang teased.

"I wonder at that. Where then, do you turn your ice?"

"To the endings that make way for new things. The Killing cold that renews the world for a new day," Ling Qi said.

Cold and Isolation and Ending; blade, hilt and pommel. Through those three lenses, she understood harm, understood pain.

[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.

[ ] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
 
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[ ] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.

This is solid truth.
 
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.

I've often thought this in opposition to pure nihilism, but this is bar none the best expression of it I have ever heard.
 
[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.

The response to Nihilism that the talk of Endings so often delves into.
 
Nice, so we know it's a good option to talk, now we know the rituals are on the table, but will be expensive. Good info.

For this vote, I prefer
[ ] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.

Mainly because I can more clearly see how it connects to other concepts. I kinda echoes our FSS insight, but expands on it more too.

It connects to Causality and elaborates on one of our insights about your actions affecting the world. Your actions affect the world because they're the breeding ground for the new world.

The highest mastery of self is to get people to take up your Way, even after your meet your End. It means your thoughts are a good breeding ground for growth and change.

Acc, there's Void and its take on Sacrifice too, so all the people who wanted Void to go there can get that.

[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.

This isn't bad though. It's really good. It also echoes our FSS insight, and it connects to Power, which is cool. You can't say mortals are meaningless just because they're not as powerful or long-lived.

This can connect to the recent thoughts of Power thay LQ has been exploring since the tribulation too, I guess

So, anyway, I like the second option. The first has its pros, but the second feels better since it connects to more concepts for a more cohesive Way.

I'm open to changing my mind based on others' interpretations though.
 
[] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.

I think this contrasts well with this
Though a path might be hard and lonely, it has worth if you can present something of beauty to those you care for at the end. (Expression, Isolation, Want)
which has elements alluding to ignoring the "hard and lonely" parts to focus on the end result.

Edit: went and rechecked, and it seems like it'd also weirdly tie in to the Causality part of this
Even walking alone, footfalls echo beyond your hearing. (Community, Causality, Expression)
even if it is a tenuous connection it still adds more meaning to what a "footfalls echo" can mean and what that meaning can be worth.
 
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Leaning towards this one atm
[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
 
[ ] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.

A now-dry lakebed bears the memory of that water in every plant and animal that descended from that which lived there, and in the memory of every plant and animal that were prey or predator to those animals, and the predator and prey to those, and so on and so on. That lake shaped the weather around it, even far from its shores; the process that created that lake created countless others all around it, and they in turn had their own effects. To say that lake ever truly Ended is to talk of the death of all things everywhere, for in the face of any lesser End, some trace of its presence will continue to exist.

Thus nothing ever truly begins, and nothing truly ever ends, because nothing ever exists without an effect on anything else. There is only the continual cycle of change.
 
[ ] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.

A now-dry lakebed bears the memory of that water in every plant and animal that descended from that which lived there, and in the memory of every plant and animal that were prey or predator to those animals, and the predator and prey to those, and so on and so on. That lake shaped the weather around it, even far from its shores; the process that created that lake created countless others all around it, and they in turn had their own effects. To say that lake ever truly Ended is to talk of the death of all things everywhere, for in the face of any lesser End, some trace of its presence will continue to exist.

Thus nothing ever truly begins, and nothing truly ever ends, because nothing ever exists without an effect on anything else. There is only the continual cycle of change.

It's not the shape of the world that matters, bit the truth of it instead.

I also like option 2 because it feels more like Endings as Renewal/Endings as a transition/transgression that the Crone spoke about.
 
[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness

I really like this one (and admittedly have been saying similar things here for ages). Broadly I think that accepting that we can't be perfect and that we can't make the world be perfect is important to addressing some of LQ's issues and also ties into challenging Renxiang's tendencies.
 
[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.

I really enjoy existentialism, both personally as a philosophy and professionally as a counselor which makes me really like this option. Also this seems like a better addendum/response to I believe our shadow mentors view of power. Like the thought that power is your ability to affect change fits really well (at least to me) with this interpretation of endings. Like maybe an eventual combination of something like power being the ability to create meaning, in defiance of the knowledge that nothing you create will last.
 
That being said, while I like (1) I'm not sure this is really the right time for it. Not sure we have the right prompts and thoughts on it rn.

(2) seems to fit better with current developments, the focus on change, and things like FFS

Like maybe an eventual combination of something like power being the ability to create meaning, in defiance of the knowledge that nothing you create will last.
Ehh, not really a fan of that. Like I'd argue that part of accepting the inherent meaningless of everything would be accepting that you don't need Power to create Meaning. Big things aren't inherently more meaningful than small things.
 
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
 
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Wow what interesting insights. And the talk of the small worlds, and that someone must choose. There's a lot of parallel between Shu Yue's non-Imperial cultivation of prayer and worship as a vengeful Death thing (remember that the most recent Imperial Ascension was for the Emperor to assign Judgement and justice to a face of Death) and the idea that the ones that should wield that judgement should be the smallest of us.

I think the first insight, Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness, is fairly in line with what we know of Fryja and her Zmeya. A true Ending not recycled, but meaningful all the same. The Sacrifice and Isolation of a human in order to become a persistent entity of endless violence perpetually protecting the people. The sacrifice of ith'ia in ways that may not be recyclable, but are still meaningful.

This one by contrast, Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom, feels like perhaps a more Red Garden or Cycles or Pure One sort of insight? Something that talks about recycling and the "Ship of Theseus" approach to resisting Ending. Arguing that the Ending you're experiencing is actually only a little E ending, rather than a true Ending. Therefore, there are materials left over for the next beginning.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In regards to the vote, Ling Qi brings up how her Weapon is Cold, Isolation and Ending. She delivers this weapon through Music/Expression/Communication but the actual Weapon is Cold, Isolation and Ending. So we're clarifying the Endings portion of our cultivation with either:
Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness
or
Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom

I think the first has some pretty clear cut use for the offensive potential of our weapon. The first part, stating that Ending (capital E) is absolute, is very much in line with the metaphysics of the world as we understand it. Folding that statement into our cultivation should help increase our potency against those that try to weasel out of being Ended in a permanent way. The second portion is an interesting statement to add to our cultivation, "The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness". I don't think it's possible to know all the ways that this second portion will interact with our cultivation, but it guarantees that LQ will be able to find value in the impermanent going forward. Perhaps it will interact positively against certain types of Despair or Hopelessness or Existential sorts of offense. Maybe it'll work nicely with disposable summons or Sacrifice techniques as well.

I mentioned above that the First feels quite in line with Fryja and what we've seen of Polar Nation's Style so far, and this second one likely has some similarities to Red Garden as we understand it. The idea is that we're connecting Endings (explicitly part of our "Weapon") to our Creation and Causality and other portions of our build. Little E endings come and go, they are unremarkable. This could be a good way to hit Pride, as the little E endings of whoever we're targeting are unremarkable in our eyes. Connecting Ending to Creation sounds like we're also connecting with Sacrifice, perhaps more explicitly than in the first option. Knowing that our own works are materials for the next beginning sounds like a good way to get towards consumable/recyclable/multi-stage/multipurpose Creations. Very interesting combo with Xuan Shi's multi-talisman concepts.

Interestingly the second option is also likely to be in line with Shenhua and Xia Ren. Creators and Destroyers combined, but having lost the sight that they had as humans because they are no longer fully human. If we accept that the only way to create is for what came before to end, then I think our core arguments against Xia Ren and Shenhua will have to be about being more precise/nuanced/efficient/effective than them. That we are the next beginning for now, and that we too will relinquish power when the next beginning comes.

Hmmm.

Now I've been a big proponent of pushing for aligning grand metaphysical truths with our practical on-the-job philosophy since I first heard that Isolation played a huge role in the creation myth of the universe. Further tapping into capital E Ending appeals to me, and the second portion of option 1 has some interesting implications for us going forward. Having something explicit in our build that says "The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness" while also being a cultivator of swarming constructs and a budding crafter is very tasty. Thinking that the fact you can constantly disrupt or destroy the constructs makes the constructs meaningless, or bluntly asserting that the constructs are meaningless because they are temporary, that sounds like the kind of folly we want our enemies to fall into. Tricking the Beast Gods into discounting the threat of the less strong in Tsu's forces was vital in at least some of the stories we've heard so far (if not all). Most recently, the fact that the Vermin God focused on Tsu so heavily that the many parts of itself devoured the others until all that remained were a weakened Tsu and two rats so bloated they were helpless against the forces that speared them. I like the momentum this builds along the Fryja and Vermin-God-Story we've heard.

Still a cohesive recycler Build is what I'm hoping for as a goal. While I think getting a fully cohesive recycling build will probably have to wait for us to investigate the remnant of Zhengui's mom (hopefully an explicitly Zhengui focused arc), tying our Ending concept to the rest of a recycling build more explicitly would be very strong. My question is whether we need our weapon to be explicitly connected to the rest of our build or if we should focus on making sure it's Powerful and then integrate it more completely with the rest of our cultivation later. Second Option also builds on what we've learned about what Western Territories is doing (an attempt at recycling that Pines asserts will poison/taint them) and is likely synergistic with the FFS we've developed.

Bah.

I'm more interested in the second half of option One being in our foundations than I am with option Two, even if both are good.

[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.

Choose either, I think they're both fairly good
 
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
 
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
 
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
 
Finding meaning in Transience, versus asserting that the old serves as fuel to the new.
Going to be some hard choices down the road for either, since this would have fairly significant impacts down the road.

[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness

This one is harsher on the surface, but more human in the end - its more emotional, more able to interact on an even level with relative mayflies without avoiding them.
It also makes a better weapon of course, because it accepts finality, and so is better at killing things that won't stay dead.

[ ] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.

This one is cyclic, that the titans of old will one day be mulch for the new. But its also more mechanical, it gives strong Greater Good vibes, and is more prone to consider everything as fuel in the face of eventual benefit. Shenhua and Xia Ren would be keenly familiar with this.
It'd not be as good a weapon - you cannot kill Life or similar forces by recycling them, but its more efficient at feeding into future buffs.


I'm inclined to go with Absolute - its something we have to face eventually, that people will die, and thats no reason to stop making friends and staying close to kin even if they have a century to our eight.

[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness

Focusing on the future growth alone makes the present seem more like fuel to the crucible.
 
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.

Imma lean in on the Fantasy Buddhism here, since the Pure One doctrines are kinda sorta Buddhist and it would be fun to have our own take on it one day when we become a proper arch-heretic with cute horns and an axe to grind
 
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
 
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