Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
I think this is a valuable perspective for Ling Qi to hold. My main hesitation is how it fits into other pieces of her philosophy. There's not a lot of direct connections or related character narratives/set pieces that I can see. Or remember, at least.
Thematically, this would resonate with Grinning Moon stuff, maybe? I can see angles on Dreaming and HIdden too, but probably mostly in the context of butterfly effect frameworks. There's room for it to be a good setup for our remaining project in the turn; after putting aside the great, looming, future answering what we want in the moment kind of thing.
There's some connection to our history stuff too. Just because our predecessors are dust and failure doesn't mean they have nothing of value to offer us todayand that's why we should have horns.
[ ] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
This one almost has the opposite problem. When I look at our character sheet, a lot of stuff has clear interaction with this outlook. More direct links with Creation, Cycles, arguably Boundaries, even my neglected baby Causality.
Stronger connection with the history stuff and the kind of Dreaming And Hidden narratives we've poked at so far too, imo.
Edit: forgot to add a thought. The fact that #1 vibes are less explored than #2 vibes is a valid reason to want to pick #1 and not want to pick #2. Nothing wrong with wanting to broaden our horizons a bit. My hesitation is mainly with whether it's likely to land in a way that makes sense.
I think this is a valuable perspective for Ling Qi to hold. My main hesitation is how it fits into other pieces of her philosophy. There's not a lot of direct connections or related character narratives/set pieces that I can see. Or remember, at least.
Thematically, this would resonate with Grinning Moon stuff, maybe? I can see angles on Dreaming and HIdden too, but probably mostly in the context of butterfly effect frameworks. There's room for it to be a good setup for our remaining project in the turn; after putting aside the great, looming, future answering what we want in the moment kind of thing.
There's some connection to our history stuff too. Just because our predecessors are dust and failure doesn't mean they have nothing of value to offer us today
[ ] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
This one almost has the opposite problem. When I look at our character sheet, a lot of stuff has clear interaction with this outlook. More direct links with Creation, Cycles, arguably Boundaries, even my neglected baby Causality.
Stronger connection with the history stuff and the kind of Dreaming And Hidden narratives we've poked at so far too, imo.
Edit: forgot to add a thought. The fact that #1 vibes are less explored than #2 vibes is a valid reason to want to pick #1 and not want to pick #2. Nothing wrong with wanting to broaden our horizons a bit. My hesitation is mainly with whether it's likely to land in a way that makes sense.
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Given Ling Qi's habits of layering debuffs and summoning temporary allies in combat, I suspect it complicates counterplay - removing the debuff or dismissing the summon will still remove the debuff or dismiss the summon, but...
In any case, my preference is for the first. There's very little purpose in arguing over whether or not this is the right time to take an insight, because there's no reason to believe we'll get two bites at the apple.
Most directly for Ling Qi, though, it means Ling Qi can value relationships and communities that might not last forever. Mortals may wither and die, but she should value them anyway.
[x] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
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- Location
- scrabbling
[ ] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
I prefer this on its own over the other, but the previous Ending insight states that Ending is 'constant, but not absolute', which is a difficult square to circle and a bit of a wild flip. The statement about Ending coming and going also fits better with what LQ said to cap this update, that she desires to be a renewing cold to bring a new day. So Endings coming and going is a more coherent response.
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
I prefer this on its own over the other, but the previous Ending insight states that Ending is 'constant, but not absolute', which is a difficult square to circle and a bit of a wild flip. The statement about Ending coming and going also fits better with what LQ said to cap this update, that she desires to be a renewing cold to bring a new day. So Endings coming and going is a more coherent response.
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
Tbh, our previous Ending concepts sort of cover both of these already lol.
Though yeah, the wording is a little awkward. "Ending is absolute" is also kind of not even necessary to the line imo? You could remove it and "All things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness." works fine.
Bringing it together with our focus on the smaller endings and change I think would be more meaningful to us though. It's not just that endings do not negate meaning, but that creation is not the source of meaning either. The now does not only have meaning as fuel for the new - it may have meaning in and of itself as we will it.
and
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That's kind of a result of the concept descriptions being very simplified in order to fit them into a line to a degree. Conceptually our throughline has always been that focus on the here and now and the journey. (1) says all things end, and in acceptance of that fact we forge meaning in defiance of it. That Ending does not *negate* meaning.
Though yeah, the wording is a little awkward. "Ending is absolute" is also kind of not even necessary to the line imo? You could remove it and "All things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness." works fine.
Bringing it together with our focus on the smaller endings and change I think would be more meaningful to us though. It's not just that endings do not negate meaning, but that creation is not the source of meaning either. The now does not only have meaning as fuel for the new - it may have meaning in and of itself as we will it.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
It also reminds me of the conversation between Ling Qi and Sima Jiao. Saving Ling Qi is very much a transient thing, on the timescales of such things as cultivator states, but that didn't make it meaningless.
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
- Pronouns
- He
Spitting straight facts
- Location
- Space between realms
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
Welp I'm convinced
Sheep goes "bah bah"
Welp I'm convinced
Sheep goes "bah bah"
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minimap_op
plsnerf
- Location
- Lower Lefthand Corner
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So, firstly I would like to remind everyone that this is one concept rank in an already existing framework, so speculating that one choice will lead to a certain future is most likely an overreaction.
But anyway, it looks like we're currently doing Ice and Dust.
Option 2 fits both this and FFS as a whole more.
The current theme for FFS is Renewal, or, as the (fragment of the) Crone aptly put it, Endings as a transition from old to new, or Endings as a transgression, against time and death. I really want to continue this line of thought, as it's what our successor is about. First, we fixed it's imagery and intent, and the exact position of Ending as a transition for LQ.
Now, option 2 builds on this, interrogating what the Renewal/Ending actually does. We're probably going to be doing FFS every turn until we complete it. Continuity in its themes and thoughts process is important.
Secondly, it ties together our a lot of our concepts together. I understand why the first successor is important, if it connects everything you've done, it's an example prototype for your Way. Our first project brought in Want, Persistence, and Cycles.
Option 2 melds well with Expression/[Communication], the concept that'll probably be our first Word. Expression IV states the the greatest mastery of self, the greatest Power/highest realm of cultivation, is getting others to take up your Way. This really builds on that. If you don't provide good ideas and meaning for the future, then it won't carry over in the next cycle.
It has hints at Motion, Creation, and Cycles in it, moreso than the option 1, helping us build a more cohesive Way. In fact, it even ties low ranked concepts like Causality together, bringing more Hidden to our Grinning Ending concept.
It even brings in Void as Sacrifice, as your endings are a sacrifice for the future for which new things grow from.
I also think it relates to our insights about the future and the importance of the present, past, and future. Or, well, Hidden, Grinning, and Dreaming.
The present and the now is important because it shapes the future. And it shapes the future because your ideas are the breeding ground for new ideas and change. It's really Hidden. It also connects to Dreaming in that, well, your works and creations will inspire more creations, which would fight Isolation.
Thus, Hidden (the effect of previous actions) is the past, Grinning (renewal, the boundary between past and future) is the present, and Dreaming (the changes and ideas brought by Creation) is the future.
And lastly, it shows some character growth.
Previously, LQ was a bothered by the idea that she too would end and would need to be replaced. Now though, she views that in a more positive light because she'll help shape the future and provide fertile ground for the future to grow.
Altogether, option 2 continues to build on FFS and tightens up Ling Qi's Way. And it focuses more on Cycles, the concept that'll tie a lot of LQ's concepts together in a way that's consistent with what's done, while providing good character growth.
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
But anyway, it looks like we're currently doing Ice and Dust.
Option 2 fits both this and FFS as a whole more.
The current theme for FFS is Renewal, or, as the (fragment of the) Crone aptly put it, Endings as a transition from old to new, or Endings as a transgression, against time and death. I really want to continue this line of thought, as it's what our successor is about. First, we fixed it's imagery and intent, and the exact position of Ending as a transition for LQ.
Now, option 2 builds on this, interrogating what the Renewal/Ending actually does. We're probably going to be doing FFS every turn until we complete it. Continuity in its themes and thoughts process is important.
Secondly, it ties together our a lot of our concepts together. I understand why the first successor is important, if it connects everything you've done, it's an example prototype for your Way. Our first project brought in Want, Persistence, and Cycles.
Option 2 melds well with Expression/[Communication], the concept that'll probably be our first Word. Expression IV states the the greatest mastery of self, the greatest Power/highest realm of cultivation, is getting others to take up your Way. This really builds on that. If you don't provide good ideas and meaning for the future, then it won't carry over in the next cycle.
It has hints at Motion, Creation, and Cycles in it, moreso than the option 1, helping us build a more cohesive Way. In fact, it even ties low ranked concepts like Causality together, bringing more Hidden to our Grinning Ending concept.
It even brings in Void as Sacrifice, as your endings are a sacrifice for the future for which new things grow from.
I also think it relates to our insights about the future and the importance of the present, past, and future. Or, well, Hidden, Grinning, and Dreaming.
The present and the now is important because it shapes the future. And it shapes the future because your ideas are the breeding ground for new ideas and change. It's really Hidden. It also connects to Dreaming in that, well, your works and creations will inspire more creations, which would fight Isolation.
Thus, Hidden (the effect of previous actions) is the past, Grinning (renewal, the boundary between past and future) is the present, and Dreaming (the changes and ideas brought by Creation) is the future.
And lastly, it shows some character growth.
Previously, LQ was a bothered by the idea that she too would end and would need to be replaced. Now though, she views that in a more positive light because she'll help shape the future and provide fertile ground for the future to grow.
Altogether, option 2 continues to build on FFS and tightens up Ling Qi's Way. And it focuses more on Cycles, the concept that'll tie a lot of LQ's concepts together in a way that's consistent with what's done, while providing good character growth.
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
NoxOfUmbra
Shadow of the night
- Location
- Colombia, South América
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness
This one makes me think of Sixiang, so at least for now i'll go with it
This one makes me think of Sixiang, so at least for now i'll go with it
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness
this just sounds way more hardcore and less nice than the other one.
this just sounds way more hardcore and less nice than the other one.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
This one feels like it fits with our "take up our way" expression concept.
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
[X] Endings come and Endings go. To create, what came before must end. Knowing that your works too are but the materials for the next beginning is wisdom.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I don't want a way that says all that is good must end and nothing that is evil can ever really be stopped. I want permeant progress to be possible.
Also, and I know it's going to be a minimal consideration next to actually valuing individual mortals, but Lady Ren would kinda conflict with it.
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
Also, and I know it's going to be a minimal consideration next to actually valuing individual mortals, but Lady Ren would kinda conflict with it.
[X] Ending is absolute, all things fall and wither and rot in time. The greatest folly is conflating impermanence with meaninglessness.
Mmm, so I have issues with parts of both the options' wording.
For (1), as noted, I don't like the "Ending is absolute" part. People have raised concerns about it feeling like it runs counter to our existing insights and I feel that's valid. In presentation, the way that idea has been expressed to us through Zeqing and now Fryja is that the concept of Absolute Endings is about cosmic Endings. About the Cold of the heat death of the universe. The Ending that consumes everything and leaving nothing that Fryja wields against the Jungle.
And this is awkward because LQ has already gone "yeah sure that is a thing, I'm not denying it, but I have to live in the present. Let's talk about everyday endings". While we could backtrack on it to a degree, I think such would need to be much more deliberate than as part of a concept that doesn't even really need it.
For LQ then I would say that "Ending is absolute" should not be read as "Ending is Absolute Ending", but rather that "Endings are an absolute truth underlying all things". Where Zeqing would say that Everything Ends, Ling Qi prefers to say that everything ends. And this I think is in some ways more meaningful. We do not need the heat death of the universe to accept that everything is transient. Even if the "universe" lasted forever, nothing we do will be permanent. Everything will change, everything will end. It may change for the better - and we should always strive for such - but it will also change for the worse too. Yet this does not make our work invalid. It does not remove the meaning from what we create. Accept this, and be free.
For (2) otoh what I don't like is "To create, what came before must end". Because I don't really think it's true as a universal statement, and it positions us as being overly into actively pursuing endings without consideration of the degree to which they are necessary.
Like, yes, there are plenty of cases to which is does apply. To create new ways of living, new rules for society, the old ways must end. For the food we make we must hunt and harvest. For the houses we build we must fell trees. Yet is this all there is? Ling Qi is a musician. Does something need to end for us to compose a new song? Oh, one could try to talk about the ending of thoughts and experiences leading to creation, but is that particularly meaningful? Have those things even meaningfully ended? You can reuse a thought! You can compose a song mid way through your journey! If every thought is an ending is the concept of endings even meaningful anymore? At that point I feel one would just be trying to awkwardly force "ending" into everything and the concept is stretched to the point of uselessness.
For (1), as noted, I don't like the "Ending is absolute" part. People have raised concerns about it feeling like it runs counter to our existing insights and I feel that's valid. In presentation, the way that idea has been expressed to us through Zeqing and now Fryja is that the concept of Absolute Endings is about cosmic Endings. About the Cold of the heat death of the universe. The Ending that consumes everything and leaving nothing that Fryja wields against the Jungle.
And this is awkward because LQ has already gone "yeah sure that is a thing, I'm not denying it, but I have to live in the present. Let's talk about everyday endings". While we could backtrack on it to a degree, I think such would need to be much more deliberate than as part of a concept that doesn't even really need it.
For LQ then I would say that "Ending is absolute" should not be read as "Ending is Absolute Ending", but rather that "Endings are an absolute truth underlying all things". Where Zeqing would say that Everything Ends, Ling Qi prefers to say that everything ends. And this I think is in some ways more meaningful. We do not need the heat death of the universe to accept that everything is transient. Even if the "universe" lasted forever, nothing we do will be permanent. Everything will change, everything will end. It may change for the better - and we should always strive for such - but it will also change for the worse too. Yet this does not make our work invalid. It does not remove the meaning from what we create. Accept this, and be free.
For (2) otoh what I don't like is "To create, what came before must end". Because I don't really think it's true as a universal statement, and it positions us as being overly into actively pursuing endings without consideration of the degree to which they are necessary.
Like, yes, there are plenty of cases to which is does apply. To create new ways of living, new rules for society, the old ways must end. For the food we make we must hunt and harvest. For the houses we build we must fell trees. Yet is this all there is? Ling Qi is a musician. Does something need to end for us to compose a new song? Oh, one could try to talk about the ending of thoughts and experiences leading to creation, but is that particularly meaningful? Have those things even meaningfully ended? You can reuse a thought! You can compose a song mid way through your journey! If every thought is an ending is the concept of endings even meaningful anymore? At that point I feel one would just be trying to awkwardly force "ending" into everything and the concept is stretched to the point of uselessness.