This side story made me realize I would kill to see Caí Shenhua and Charles Abrams, the Carmine Exile have a conversation. The two most toxic 'revolutionary' higher powers.
Oh, that would go very badly for the Carmine Exile. His most defining character trait after vengefulness is hypocrisy, and forcing him to confront the fact that he turned into exactly what he was trying to destroy literally killed him in canon. Shenhua's truth aura would ruin him.
The real trick is creating a system in which such abuse is, in fact, against the law, and ensuring punishment will be enforced regardless of the rank of the guilty party.
I think that would require laws to be self-executing. As long as we've got people doing the enforcement then you will see them cut corners to flatter their superiors and protect themselves.
It's an ideal I agree with but we should not be seduced by the idea that having the right words on paper is enough.
I think that would require laws to be self-executing. As long as we've got people doing the enforcement then you will see them cut corners to flatter their superiors and protect themselves.
It's an ideal I agree with but we should not be seduced by the idea that having the right words on paper is enough.
No system run by people will ever be perfect, but having laws that say something is bad, a culture that agrees, and law enforcers who are incentivized to stop such behavior, is all possible and helps a lot. Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good, laws against this kind of thing are not sufficient in and of themselves, certainly, but they're a step in the right direction.
Oh, that would go very badly for the Carmine Exile. His most defining character trait after vengefulness is hypocrisy, and forcing him to confront the fact that he turned into exactly what he was trying to destroy literally killed him in canon. Shenhua's truth aura would ruin him.
Yeah. Shenhua is awful and broken, but she's perfectly aware she is and the awfulness directed at Renxiang is to ensure she's eliminated before a greater awfulness. It's fully in line with her believes.
Can her earthly matters ever be satisfied? She is revolution and the earlier conversation gave the impression that she can't ever stop. She will continue to keep upturning society until she has burned through all her good will from deposing the last regime.
Which gives me some impending French reign of terror vibes.
But knowing this she intends for Renxiang to oppose her in the future.
Which shows that Shenhua is already a few screws loose.
I think that Shenhua never expects to ascend, but depending on CRX's Way/Solution to the Shenhua problem that can change. Basically if CRX can convince Shenhua that ascending and letting her daughter rule is actually the more "Revolutionary" choice and will spur on more revolutions, if at a slower and steadier pace, then she will ascend. If not and Shenhua will forever see the total breaking of the system as the right way forward then she will have to be put down with no GS popping up. Which would be interesting as then the Cai will be the first Ducal clan that didn't have it's founder ascend.
Is not wanting to ascend even an option at White? At that point you are your Law. The Whites who don't ascend usually do so because they run out of time and croak. Shenhua's got over 700 years to get there.
Is not wanting to ascend even an option at White? At that point you are your Law. The Whites who don't ascend usually do so because they run out of time and croak. Shenhua's got over 700 years to get there.
In general no, not wanting to ascend before X(where X can be anything) is on the table though which is Shenhua's case both in regards to her now wife and, as best as I can tell, in regards to personally enacting Revolution.
And IIRC you can get to White while having some fundamental flaw that prevents ascension and fixing it as White is nigh impossible, seemed to be the kind of thing that you sorta know before you get to White and thus have a forewarning to sort it out first, but you can progress realms anyway.
Is not wanting to ascend even an option at White? At that point you are your Law. The Whites who don't ascend usually do so because they run out of time and croak. Shenhua's got over 700 years to get there.
As per usual Shenhua is the exception proving the rule, but that is also a temporary measure that come about due to her connection with Linqin. Remember her Linqin is purely Empathic which means Shenhua can stretch/retain more than she might otherwise. This means during her time she realized how unstable the world would be if she Ascended to institute a Law of CONTINUOUS REVOLUTION & UPHEAVAL.
This is the reason why she has CRX as a contingency to prevent that eventuality, it's probably why she damaged her cultivation by maintaining the "lie" of how Tienli was conceived, and it's probably why she's been super liberal in her use of power recently.
Edit: She's also been kinda acting like a plotting schemer in the background which also slows/damages her cultivation.
Is not wanting to ascend even an option at White? At that point you are your Law. The Whites who don't ascend usually do so because they run out of time and croak. Shenhua's got over 700 years to get there.
iirc yrs has commented that the average ascension rate for Emperors is somewhat lower than other Whites because they tend to be more tied to earthly affairs. So I'd guess it probably is? Just depends on your Way.
A 1% increase in Revolution spread across the whole empire as represented by a Great Spirit is almost purely benefit. It knocks entrenched interests off their feet and ensures they must always remain beneficial and relevant, or they will lose their edge over time.
A 4000% increase in Revolution in a single point as represented by Cai Shenhua Unrestrained is devastating and ruins lives.
And IIRC you can get to White while having some fundamental flaw that prevents ascension and fixing it as White is nigh impossible, seemed to be the kind of thing that you sorta know before you get to White and thus have a forewarning to sort it out first, but you can progress realms anyway.
From what Yrs has said it seems to me like it's impossible to reach White and still have a flaw of that magnitude in your Way. You can have that kind of internal contradiction all the way up to peak Prism, but if you've reached White it by definition means you've solved it.
Yrsillar said:
I am not entirely sure of the question, but White cultivators are basically past the point of experiencing envy unless they've someone gotten up there with a way centered on it, like say a Conquerer's way, though I'm not even sure that would strictly be envy anymore. Being a white cultivator rather centers your existence and tends to make you convinced that what you're doing is the most important thing after all.
There is still significant cultivation to do, resources needed and other obstacles, but once you've reached white you have indeed solved almost any possible flaws in your way, you are capable of ascending if you can climb that last stair and complete whatever business you have in the material world.
It does have a lot of factors. If you stick them in a -hah- white room one one fight with only their standard equip loadouts Shao wins that fight, Shenhua could perhaps win in certain scenarios but Shaos way is better at military and fighting.
and as a fellow white cultivator there is not much for her truth to expose. You may disagree with his choices, but Shao is not deceiving himself. What he has forgotten and lost are things that are no longer part of him.
It feels like Shenhua having "Tyrants" not "social structures" in her insight puts an interesting spin on the the stuff she is in revolt against. It is is not personified by someone, I wonder if she still sees it as tyranny?
From what Yrs has said it seems to me like it's impossible to reach White and still have a flaw of that magnitude in your Way. You can have that kind of internal contradiction all the way up to peak Prism, but if you've reached White it by definition means you've solved it.
I am going by statements in the story itself where it is stated most have impurity, that is flaws. Which what you quoted support since where the first and third aren't really relevant to the topic here either way, the second says 'solved almost any possible flaws in your way' which very much says there can be flaws left.
Threads 321 Parting 7 said:
Only when one steps into the eighth realm do the last shreds of what one might call sanity flee. White light contains all colors, yet it contains none. This world of doubts and regrets and choices ceases to be theirs. They make themselves visitors here, lingering on the doorstep of a different kind of existence. And even then, most have some speck of impurity which keeps them here with us until remorseless time reaps them too.
And extrapolating from here that since they are beyond choices they can't really fix it since the fundamental aspect of Cultivation is choosing what to (not) be. This part might be wrong I concede, but for there being cultivation flaws even for White Realm cultivators thanks for giving additional evidence.
Threads of Destiny: Volume 4 (Destiny Cycle Book 7)
"Reads prologue.''
Yeah the Empire's not going to have a good time fighting the Twelve Stars Cloud. The Starson's children return to their former glory.
She could do this. She had withstood the flames of the Crucible, she had withstood the gaze of Still Waters Deeping. She had faced spirits and men and the malice that could be held by both. But, there was a question implied to her often by her friends, by her brother and sister, by her mother. She was confident that she could withstand almost any trial. But did she need too?
She did not think she did here. The lesson could be taken without immersing herself completely in a dead woman's festering hate.
…Distance might be more useful here, given her methods. She conceptualized minds as corridors and rooms, a location to be infiltrated, not as a mask for her to wear. She didn't intend to change that.
The nightmares whispers rode in Ming Xia's mind, but in the end, they were only echoes of her own thoughts. Reinforcement of the aching acidic emptiness she had grown inside her own self.
"Yeah. We don't… take control of people, there's a reason I can only ride around inside of mindless stuff you know? Dreams don't control you, they never control you. They can only show you paths, or… distort your vision."
Ming Xia didn't need an outside distortion though, only a promise that there was a way toward her goal.
It would be easy, Ming Xia thought, to get blood if that was all that was necessary. She had sold and sold and sold herself for anothers profit all her life. What difference did it make to sell herself now, save that she was the one collecting the coin.
But she had her pride. And coin enough from careful sales of the things she had collected on her last errand, never enough to be easily traced.
There were many, many petty little fiefdoms down in the dark. Where the Immortals of the city could not be bothered to govern beyond pacifying whatever troubles dared show their heads above a certain line.
Even mortals could carve out their little insect kingdoms, so long as they minded the threads of the spiders web.
And so could she. Her smile had pierced many hearts. The emptiness behind her eyes did not change that. Why would it, men never cared for what lay behind the flowers petals anyway.
The second person Ming Xia killed was a petty gangster, the lord and master of a few dusty streets and a handful of rough men. A mortal. A tiny man in mind and spirit, but at least a leader of something. He could pay her price.
The satisfaction she felt looking down into his bugged out eyes as she carved a bloody smile in his throat was fascinating.
Six months, six months and a man who had spent his life on guard, immersed in violence and brutality, had opened his heart to her, poured out his worries, looked at her with the eyes Wei Jun once had.
The nightmares cackled, and drank deep on the blood.
Love. Betrayal.
This was her cultivation. The nightmares whispered secrets in thanks for the meal. A searing agony like the contortions she underwent in the throes of that poison, carving an open channel in her spirit, winding down her spine, and her spirit swelled in her body, fortified beyond anything she had ever felt from the tiny handful of spirit stones she had been allowed in her life.
She could not stay in one place. Could not do so ever again. She was homeless and would be always. The wind tickled her skin as she stole from the roots out into the sprawling shanties which collected outside.
She had always been good at wearing faces, exposing only slivers of herself, the facets that a customer most wanted to admire on their jewel. Only with Wei Jun had she shown her full self.
A mistake she would never make again.
And it was so much easier now, that it was not merely a matter of words and tone and body language, though she kept those tools sharp still. Qi shaped what people saw, let her dissappear in the wake of a feast so much more easily.
Again. She found a man, the son of a mortal headman of an outskirts village. Second son, overshadowed by his brother.
How easy it was, to curdle a small jealousy into something deathly. Never, never did she tell him what to do, oh no. A soft word here, a soft word there. Just a little nudge from the sweet girl who held his heart and wanted him to be happy.
His anguish at his brothers grave was so much sweeter with the shock that bloomed as she slipped a knife up under his ribs, while embracing him, and gazed into his eyes until they went dark. One year this time.
One years sweet dream. The price she collected at the end was only fair.
Her cultivation grew. She took out smaller work, contemplating love. A month here, a few there. Her dantian filled, sweet as honey, warm as blood. There was something binding her though, even now as fresh channels opened in her spirit, weakening the limits of flesh.
Mortal blood wouldn't be enough to break this chain she strained under now.
Ling Qi felt sickness, deep in her stomach. She understood now why this was among the lessons offered her. Ming Xia touched, in the lowest realms, what she was reaching for. The power tobreak people apart, to twist their bonds and Ways against them.
If they were to touch the crimes of the Hui against their subjects… then a low cultivators first unsteady steps along those ways was a lesson in and off itself.
"...I'm glad you decided to pull back… I don't want to think of how you'd feel sitting right behind her eyes while she does this… You beat yourself up enough for being selfish and manipulative."
Sixiang's voice was grim.
"...I recognize it. I don't think I'm worse than the average… not anymore, but the average isn't very good."
"Heh, when that's progress."
Ling Qi felt the hot spray of blood again, distant through Ming Xia's hands, A different sort of betrayal. A different flavor. The chains of the first realm breaking and the release of swelling into the new cage of the second. It was as sweet as she remembered, for all that it seemed so small now.
It was a joy Ming Xia barely even felt. Only a few seconds thrill, before it was overtaken by imaginings of bloodied faces. Of Wei Jun, of the wife whose name she did not even know, of the Madam and all the women there.
That startled Ling Qi, where had that come from? The Madam, the physician even but…
They didn't even have faces, in Ming Xia's memory. Not really. Why would they. Background, attachments to the one she really hated.
Just… property to be destroyed in the course of ruining one woman.
…People, even cultivators… had so little self reflection.
The night the brothel burned, its women, and customers alike, while Ming Xia held the woman who had been the closest thing to her mother in her arms while the crackling flames and the screams mingled was the first time Ming Xia felt what Ling Qi could call happiness.
Because only now, as the bonds of the second realm strained and broak on a choking song of smoke and pleas, did she feel assured that Wei Jun's eyes would be hers again.
It was trivial by now, to enter a man's home, to slip into a new skin, and new face, no more than a simpel maid, brought on to care for the house.
There was a child here now. The years had gone by swiftly for Ming Xia, whetting the blade she wielded now. But there was still a shock, the first time she saw the boy, Wei Jun's son.
Her spirit had trembled with such rage, it had nearly burst her new face like a bubble of soap.
It was worse. When her probing in those first weeks revealed to her a simple fact.
She would not be able to turn his eyes to her, his lusts from that woman. Wei Jun, she could observe, with senses honed by her contemplations of Love and Betrayal, had no eyes for anyone else, not anymore.
The pit of venom where her heart had been bubbled and frothed, but she had planned too long to just savage him like an animal now.
No, she had a better plan.
That woman made a fine enough gown and mask, peeled out of her skin. No one found, the lump of meat that remained, cast down down in chunks to the hogs in the undercity.
…Though there was a weakness to the plan. A part of her, an aching part of her, considered becoming the mask. Taking what she should have had all along. Trivial. It would have been trivial, to just become Wei Jun's wife in truth, be the mask, have it forever.
But the acid in her skin and the hate in her dreams would not allow it. Every time she saw the child, her guts seized and rankled, that old ache from that bloody bed returning.
There was, she decided, after half a year of escalating torments, few more potent betrayals than a child, who discovered that their mother hated them.
Nothing Wei Jun could see, would see, for all that he grew increasingly fretful about his son's nightmares and growing ill health. The priests he called… those she had to be wary of, to play slowly around. The one time she had fallen under suspicion, she had feigned such distress and illness from it that Wei Jun had cast the protesting priest out of the house.
She'd been sure to be more subtle after that.
Soon confined to bed, she found Wei Jun's pain as his son wasted away far more satisfying than merely killing him in their bed, a knife in his gut while he clawed at the face of the one he loved.
She whispered it in the boys ear every night too, that he was killing his father, bit by bit, oh why was he such an awful son…
She would take Wei Jun at last, the night that his son died, as he poured out his grief to his wife.
It was… perfect. Perfect, no one could stop her vengeance now.
Until she came to the boy, for the final night of nightmares, and he had looked up at her, not with frightened eyes, but with no eyes at all.
Make the monster go away. Please. Bring Mommy back.
The shadows whispered, whispered in the voice of a little boy who no longer had a mouth.
Cold hands, with fingers that were far too long closed around Ming Xia's throat.
***
Ling Qi jerked backward with a gasp. Blinking away tears, her heart thundering in her ears. She looked down dully in at the table before her. It was frozen through, the wood utterly ruined, holes punched through its top by her fingers.
"...I don't think they felt there was any use in you feeling the dying. Not the point of the lesson I guess," Sixiang said quietly.
Gears clicked and whirred, the puppet sat up, Sixiang's face slowly filling in over the blank mask, light mist rolling in in the morning.
"No, I suppose not. Or at least, learning what precisely Shu Yue had done to Ming Xia in the end, might very well be part of the next lesson.
…There were so many unkind and vile things in the world. Not just the great affairs of Empires and provinces and clashing civilizations… but so many small things too.
And the small things, those grudges, those grievances, were born from the greater ones, just as they informed them. Which came first? Cai Renxiang would say the greater crimes were the soil from which the lesser grew. She had much to think about before she spoke to Shu Yue again.
But… Ling Qi was not so sure it was that simple.
"I'm going to sleep. Will you stay with me Sixiang?"
The muse looked up, expression uncertain. "Qi… you?"
"..I just want a little nap. There's so much to do tomorrow yet."
+2 Community, Cycles, Isolation, and Want
Month End. Year End.
[ ] Her first meeting, observing the courses of the Gold Autumn School with Xia Lin
[ ] Her first meeting, attending to another auction with Xia Lin, as buyers this time
I honestly have to wonder if Ming Xia even counted as a cultivator towards the end there.
It sounds more like (ironically) she was replaced by something that wore her like a suit.
[ ] Her first meeting, observing the courses of the Gold Autumn School with Xia Lin
[ ] Her first meeting, attending to another auction with Xia Lin, as buyers this time
