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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Doramas said:
You guys understand that this vote isn't about getting the rituals for sure, right?
It's about asking Dzintara to give them to us. To which she is going to say no.
Because, as she just explained, she doesn't trust the Empire's ability to keep agreements and is still dubious about the the Western Territories.
So asking her now, as if we hadn't been listening to her concerns, it's just going to result offensive.
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I highly doubt that Yrs will give us the option to get information, then deliberately not give us the information. If there was a roll attached to the choice, I would understand, but there's not, so this just reads as fearmongering to me.

Secondly, she has acknowledged that the Empire will be able to keep its contracts, at least.

yrsillar said:
The clouds dispersed. The Mist dispersed

"Your ways are wrong, strife among your great souls will crush far more than their interaction might save," Dzintara said.

"Yet, we are able to change, and we are able to stand together," Ling Qi said.

"Yes. If nothing else, you are certainly able to keep to contracts," Dzintara conceded.

"And I see that you are devoted to your prosperity, not only of yourselves, but of the White Sky," Ling Qi acknowledged.

That was not to say there was no personal element too it. After all it was gods who were pure and unsullied by human want. She had no doubt Dzintara had such thoughts on the nature of their high realms as well.

She did not think Dzintara liked her any better, but she did think they could approach each other as neutral peers at least. She did think Dzintara might drive hard for her sides benefit, but not to the point of sabotage.

Meeting the other woman's gaze, she thought a similar conclusion was brewing there. Ling Qi's sincerity had been accepted though.
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But, well, if she is insulted, it'll be better to do that here. In public, imperials can point at the argument and say they're barbarians who aren't civilised. In private, currently, Jaromila is acting as a mediator between us; she understands our side and the Pine's side and can help lesson faux pas. In public, Jaromila would have to represent the WS' interests and can't act as a mediator for us. In private, we'll have time to develop a better offer with Renxiang's (and maybe Jaromila's) input if the initial one is not received well. In public, we won't have much time to pivot and change offers because, well, it's public, and if it looks like we're backing down, we'll be viewed negatively by imperials. And we may not get the help and viewpoint from someone experienced with the Tangled Pines' culture.

I doubt she'll be insulted or well, insulted for long with Jaromila there to explain our perspective, but if she is, doing it now and giving both sides to cool down and plan is vastly superior to doing it during the summit when it can make things worse.

Need I remind you that we did the same thing with Xia Ren about the patrols before a negotiation, and it made things much smoother for us.

yrsillar said:
"Yes, I will want to see our interests represented here regardless. Toll agreements reached before any roads are considered," Dzintara said bluntly. "But also established limits on settlements in the western wall. There are few Cloud Tribes there but many sacred places. I will not negotiate away our peoples 'cultivation'."

"I understand," Ling Qi said. As she had guessed, the west really was going to be a sticking point, due to her limited power. "I think that establishing trust here and a resolution system would be the best for ensuring any such deals have teeth. If my people become convinced that yours are good partners that opens more roads for us."

That was going to be the core of the summit. All the trade and cultural ties and exchanges of knowledge were secondary. Establishing this place as something more permanent and getting both sides to support whatever dispute resolution system was made here… that was going to be the crux of whether this lasted beyond a ceasefire.

Still they needed time, and some kind of buy in to keep the Western Territories at low hostility too. The situation with their Sublime and its… fragments seemed like the biggest flashpoint. If the Sun were constantly under attack by beings they now knew to come from the Twisted Pine and not the jungle, tempers would fray.
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The Tangled Pins have asked for something, protection and avoidance of their sacred cultivation sites. However, as we know, the Sun and the Western Territories may not follow through; if that happens, the Tangled Pines wouldn't follow through, making it difficult to keep sustained contact. We already know that the people of the WT are interested in the Zmeya, and are building a defensive line against them. This will help them.

Getting something that can comfort the WT and make them more likely not to attack the Pines or Freya is good because, as @veekie has pointed out, the founding tale and current life of the WT are retaliating against something they can't defeat.

Plus, since the Zmeya attack both sides indiscriminately, it shows that the Tangled Pines are neighbourly neighbours, so the WT may be more likely to be neighbourly neighbours too, especially if the Pines are as committed to killing the Jungle as they are.

[X] Rites or rituals which could be used to keep the mindless Zmeya away from work sites.
 
The sun are very likely to be our enemies in the mid future. I don't want to strengthen them as a whole.

The individuals who might change that, yes, but not the Sun as commanded by Shao. He doesn't need our help, nor do I think giving to him is going to get anything in return. The conflict between the WS and the sun is blocked by a sublime. That's enough to ensure peace on it's own.
 
It's not strengthening them as a whole. It's a region guarded by a sublime. They won't be attacking it anytime soon. And as LQ has noted, the warding rituals/rights aren't abusable. They can't be used to hunt them down or anything. It's a more efficient way to keep them away without feeding the Sunflower goddess blood from unnecessary deaths.

Plus, this can help us a lot too. Rejecting options that help us just because they may help future enemies in some way doesn't make much sense to me.
 
Oliver_Twister said:
Plus, this can help us a lot too. Rejecting options that help us just because they may help future enemies in some way doesn't make much sense to me.
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How? Best case Princess Sun pockets the win and gives a headpat. Worst case the request falls through.

Our objectives are continual contact and the establishment of a dispute resolution system. Keeping something on the table for the sun to negotiate for themselves get them to buy in in a way that just handing them the bennies does not.
 
Glau said:
How? Best case Princess Sun pockets the win and gives a headpat. Worst case the request falls through.

Our objectives are continual contact and the establishment of a dispute resolution system. Keeping something on the table for the sun to negotiate for themselves get them to buy in in a way that just handing them the bennies does not.
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Our objectives are continual contact, and we need the Tangled Pines for that. We can't have that if we don't meet their demands, ie not attacking their sacred beasts and cultivation sites. We really can't assure the Sun and the WT won't do that, but we can build goodwill between the two sides that'll decrease the likelihood of attacks.

Plus like, if we're the ones providing it here, then Liling juiced on jungle steroids can't mess things up too much.

And lastly, opportunity cost here. We're going to do this, either way. It's just that we either do it here now, when it's better to resolve issues and problems, or we do it later, where Liling can mess things up or make ourselves look bad. Plus like, less time wasted managing this at the summit means more time available for the things we really want to do during the summit.
 
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Jun 8, 2023 at 10:14 AM, finished with 91 posts and 66 votes.
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Oliver_Twister said:
We can't have that if we don't meet their demands, ie not attacking their sacred beasts and cultivation sites. We really can't assure the Sun and the WT won't do that, but we can build goodwill between the two sides that'll decrease the likelihood of attacks.
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There is literally a sublime sitting between the two of them, defending the white sky. They don't need our guarantees.

If we want engagement between Sun and WS, we need to let them engage eachother. We've defused the immediate risk of the white sky shouting "demon cultists!" at them, but I really don't want to be the face of the sun here.
 
Glau said:
There is literally a sublime sitting between the two of them, defending the white sky. They don't need our guarantees.

If we want engagement between Sun and WS, we need to let them engage eachother. We've defused the immediate risk of the white sky shouting "demon cultists!" at them, but I really don't want to be the face of the sun here.
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I mean, there was literally a sublime sitting between the proto-WT and the people of the Jungle, yet Shao and his people (well, a few of them) are the ones alive rn. And now, they have a White backed by a Sublime ancestor.
 
Did the goddess ever fight against Shao directly?
Or did she just go "a new toy? cool"?

Shao + Jungle might be able to push through the brambles, but it would be costly, or they might not be able to do so because the bramble is literally an ascended person going "you shall not pass" to the jungle in specific.
 
Adhoc vote count started by DeadmanwalkingXI on Jun 8, 2023 at 2:00 PM, finished with 100 posts and 66 votes.
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Glau said:
The sun are very likely to be our enemies in the mid future. I don't want to strengthen them as a whole.
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to clarify this a bit, I think there's plenty of degrees in which some of the WT aren't our outright enemies and forging connections helps expand the number of people we can reach and influence. We're all pretty sure OOC that Red Garden is going to be an existential threat in the future, but how many people from WT actually end up siding with The Sunflower is up in the air for now. Sun Liling may also be redeemable, as she has Ji Rong pulling for her with a clear head. They might end up our enemies anyway, but I think we should do our best to at least steer them away from a direction that would negatively impact our own political projects.
 
The WT is definitely a thorn in our side, and part of that is on purpose because of inter-province politics. But they're not likely to devote serious resources to screwing with us. Mediation is possible. And necessary, if our goals are going to make it off the ground at all.
 
So now we only have the House of Ling action left right?
But we still have both the Ice and Dust Project and the Four Winds Joy Project pending.
A bit cramped, isn't it?
 
Doramas said:
So now we only have the House of Ling action left right?
But we still have both the Ice and Dust Project and the Four Winds Joy Project pending.
A bit cramped, isn't it?
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Well, we also have to finish this conversation (with Dzintara, then maybe with Jaromilla about the observatory) to have tea with Meng Dan, and probably give a head's up about Freja to Ji Rong
 
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