Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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Love the real talk with big sis. Assuming she showed her true colors, I like the idea of momma Ling having Lian as her nearest neighbor.
Pffft. Princess mononoke wants no part of that Wang though.
With Six in her head does LQ really not know about her girl Hou Min's crush?
Commence wingwoman mission: earth + wind = 🔥 💋
Pffft. Princess mononoke wants no part of that Wang though.
With Six in her head does LQ really not know about her girl Hou Min's crush?
Commence wingwoman mission: earth + wind = 🔥 💋
Mmm, I dunno.
The Sun are sitting in the exact spot where the Bai have traditionally said "don't try to push that far into the Jungle," and for good reason.
Now, I'll certainly grant Sun always disagreed about how practical it was to push that deep, and he's certainly riled up the Bai a lot worse than has been done for a very long time... but the Bai have been weakened, and have other threats than the Sun, so in the end I expect they'd do a more traditional punishment expedition.
Of the sort the Jungle Tribes have lived through repeatedly.
Can the Bai even defeat the Sun? I'm reasonably certain that Yrsillar said that Shao retains his huge Green army, which means the Sun can still mass-produce third realm cultivators.
Sure, a White cultivator might not be impeded much by an army of Greens, but the Sunflower Goddess will still be there even after Sun Shao kicks it. And I don't think she likes the snakes very much...
Sure, a White cultivator might not be impeded much by an army of Greens, but the Sunflower Goddess will still be there even after Sun Shao kicks it. And I don't think she likes the snakes very much...
Indeed the same reason why the Bai never dealt with the Jungle in a permanent sense only forced it away and retaliated for raids would keep the Sun alive, thus why I reckon his latest course of action is counter-productive. It is going not only to piss off and worry the Bai more but, more importantly, it makes things look like Sun Shao didn't conquer the Jungle but the reverse which is going to sink everyone's support of the Sun in favour of the Bai as even those who really really hate the Bai are likely to just grudgingly go neutral.
Since it serves the purpose of no one but the Sunflower Goddess it does make me wonder to what extent Sun Shao is still Sun Shao, or perhaps it is just enmity blinding him to the consequences and optics? We do know his view of the Empress misses what she is actually trying to do, fix and improve the empire without massive conflict, for example.
Well...
"Everything for family."
Sun Shao is heavily entrenched in his Way. I'm pretty sure acknowledging what he's done to his family in the name of family would literally kill him.
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- Location
- Finland
Sun Shao is still Sun Shao i think.
It's just that Sun Shao is the type of person who will betray his oaths and sacrifice thousands, if not millions, for a personal vendetta.
Even while he gave a pretty decent first impressions, Sun Shao is not a nice person, and sacrificing his family to a sunflower demon and sending people to pointless deaths because he just fucking hates the Bai seems perfectly in character.
It's just that Sun Shao is the type of person who will betray his oaths and sacrifice thousands, if not millions, for a personal vendetta.
Even while he gave a pretty decent first impressions, Sun Shao is not a nice person, and sacrificing his family to a sunflower demon and sending people to pointless deaths because he just fucking hates the Bai seems perfectly in character.
TimEd
Meteor maker
Well, do not forget that the Sun is in a bit of a timer as well, because Sun Shao lost that other higher realm Sun member (Liling's aunt or grandma? Can't recall) along with Liling's dad (which if I am not mistaken was the heir).
Sun Shao may or may not be able to mass produce greens through Sunflower Goddess shenanigans, but that does include producing anyone over Green. Liling's father dying should be like when Muscle Zhou (sect head heir) died. Loss of a talented heir is devastating on smaller clans.
Sunflower Goddess may protect against direct invasion, but all the Bai really need is to hem the Sun into their deadly forest and attrition should kill them sooner or later. Sun Shao isn't immortal after all.
Sun Shao may or may not be able to mass produce greens through Sunflower Goddess shenanigans, but that does include producing anyone over Green. Liling's father dying should be like when Muscle Zhou (sect head heir) died. Loss of a talented heir is devastating on smaller clans.
Sunflower Goddess may protect against direct invasion, but all the Bai really need is to hem the Sun into their deadly forest and attrition should kill them sooner or later. Sun Shao isn't immortal after all.
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It's interesting that Aunt Susan's husband made a bio weapon that kills the jungle.
- Location
- foraging for beans
Sure, but if the Bai haven't been producing bio-weapons to attack that jungle since whenever they first started bordering it, I'd be shocked. And it hasn't done them much good up until now, so it seems that horrific bio-weapons are just normal pest control/herbicide to a death-world hell-jungle propped up by a genius loci anyway.
There's surviving and there's living. The Sun clan without a replacement of Sun Shao are looking at irrelevancy and impotence. That leaves them vulnerable to a Bai extermination squad later in the manner of Shao's own experience without the drag of colonizing the hellscape
I suppose it could be as simple as that and the Sunflower Goddess is just gleefully taking advantage of the one in millennia chance handed to her in a silver platter. Though I would bet on there being more to the story simple so something can catch us by surprise.
- Location
- CA
There's a phrase I heard once, which is "rattlesnake cornered"--the idea being that rattlesnakes, if hiding fails and the threat doesn't run, don't really have a plan B. Either they bite you and you die, or they do. As a result, they can end up cornered on an empty plain. How applicable this is to actual rattlesnakes, I don't know; I'm not a herpetologist. But it feels like a pretty applicable concept with people.
It's been a great many years, and Sun Shao's only plan still seems to be, "be the baddest motherfucker that ever was." He has fewer allies than the "rule through fear" isolationists, and Welcome to the Jungle suggests he attributes this almost entirely to their being bad motherfuckers. ("If only the strength of ancestors is respected.") Sure, in his current situation, Ancestoring-up his granddaughter might be the least bad of many bad options... But the point of leadership is to avoid ever getting to the point of death-or-glory, and that is very much the current position of the Sun. If this is the best he could manage, then he had no place ever being in charge.
Shenhua's not perfect, certainly! I still support Renxiang deposing her the moment she can do so practically. But as someone initially defined (and still very much marked) by her hatred, the comparison to Sun Shao is illustrative--she's not the one sitting in a pitcher plant and hoping it digests his enemies first.
As a sublime tier being, the Sunflower Goddess's support can almost certainly substitute for spirit stones to produce high realm cultivators (though we have no clue how far that can go. Indigo? Violet? Who knows?). Once spirit blood is integrated into the Sun, they'll also be able to grow strong off the jungle. I can very easily see the Sun stabilizing to just as strong as the Bai are now, even should the very worst happen to them and they become completely isolated.
I am also hesitant to believe that the Empire would turn down the taxes and such delivered from what is likely to be a fairly isolationist Sun clan in the coming millennium. If you demonstrate that you can be worked with then its likely that you'll be able to find people willing to work with you, no matter how distasteful that might be.
The time after Sun Shao's death is going to be awful for the Sun but they will almost certainly not be able to be destroyed by the time that happens. At least, that's if Liling manages to keep her current pace of cultivation going into Violet. That's by no means guaranteed.
I am also hesitant to believe that the Empire would turn down the taxes and such delivered from what is likely to be a fairly isolationist Sun clan in the coming millennium. If you demonstrate that you can be worked with then its likely that you'll be able to find people willing to work with you, no matter how distasteful that might be.
The time after Sun Shao's death is going to be awful for the Sun but they will almost certainly not be able to be destroyed by the time that happens. At least, that's if Liling manages to keep her current pace of cultivation going into Violet. That's by no means guaranteed.
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What are you even talking about?
Sun Shao sacrificed himself to safeguard his family. He became the Goddess' lover/toy/whatever and in exchange she adopted his family. Now the Sunflower Goddess is, more or less, bound to aid the future generations of his house.
Also, the Bai are so horrible overlords that most of their vassals chose to invade a murder jungle rather than stay under their rule.
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- Location
- Finland
I'm not sure Sun Shao ever had any good game plan possible once he decided to betray the Bai.
I mean, he betrayed the Bai who were his liegelords to attack the jungle, then to keep the Bai from coming after him he made alliance with the Emperor who was trying to defang the Bai (i can understand the desire, not sure i can see the wisdom) in order to concentrate power to the throne, and then the Emperor ascended, other ducals looked around and decided they'd rather not loose power to the imperial throne and the next empress decided that wasting her efforts to fuck over the Bai would be pointless...
Well, the only ally Sun Shao has left is the goddamn jungle who he attacked to avenge his family (and possibly the Jin, maybe, for now, i doubt it will last), and only tactic is to metaphorically mine his front lawn and try to be too costly to destroy.
Because as it is, once Sun Shao dies, his clan is toast.
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Everything for family, including family members.
Bai are terrible, that does not mean Sun Shao is not.
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Sun Shao is doing to Sun Liling what Cai Shenhua did to Cai Renxiang.
Except where i believe Shenhua's actions were unintended, Shao's are explicitly deliberate.
It does not matter how much better Liling may endure than Renxiang did, the act remains monstrous.
Shenhua does not regret her actions, i don't think she can regret her actions, that is something she has cut from herself, but even then i think she has tried to rectify her mistakes, and continues to try, as bad as she is at it.
I mean, he betrayed the Bai who were his liegelords to attack the jungle, then to keep the Bai from coming after him he made alliance with the Emperor who was trying to defang the Bai (i can understand the desire, not sure i can see the wisdom) in order to concentrate power to the throne, and then the Emperor ascended, other ducals looked around and decided they'd rather not loose power to the imperial throne and the next empress decided that wasting her efforts to fuck over the Bai would be pointless...
Well, the only ally Sun Shao has left is the goddamn jungle who he attacked to avenge his family (and possibly the Jin, maybe, for now, i doubt it will last), and only tactic is to metaphorically mine his front lawn and try to be too costly to destroy.
Because as it is, once Sun Shao dies, his clan is toast.
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Liling was not asked if she wanted some soul surgery done, and while she probably will survive, it will not be unchanged (duh, that's the point).
Everything for family, including family members.
Bai are terrible, that does not mean Sun Shao is not.
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Sun Shao is doing to Sun Liling what Cai Shenhua did to Cai Renxiang.
Except where i believe Shenhua's actions were unintended, Shao's are explicitly deliberate.
It does not matter how much better Liling may endure than Renxiang did, the act remains monstrous.
Shenhua does not regret her actions, i don't think she can regret her actions, that is something she has cut from herself, but even then i think she has tried to rectify her mistakes, and continues to try, as bad as she is at it.
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I really liked Ling Qi seeing a glimpse of the dream of the Wang clan. The HDW Mod never really got explicit screen time with the White Sky but there's these little details Ling Qi gets like noticing the Polar Nation 'Allting' isn't Russian or hearing not just what people say but what they mean that show how her social role is developing. It'd be cool if we one day get descriptions like this every time someone talks sincerely, a bit of exposition imagery for backstory and aspiration.
I wonder what will happen if Ilsur meets the Wang. What they'll think about him and the Sky Palace Koliada, what he'll think about their civilizing Cloud Tribes.
I wonder what will happen if Ilsur meets the Wang. What they'll think about him and the Sky Palace Koliada, what he'll think about their civilizing Cloud Tribes.
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Yes, the only thing Sun Shao has is his giant army of third realm cultivators, a sublime ancestor and support of anyone who hates the Bai, the most despised clan in the empire. He's totally alone and helpless...
Their rule is certainly unstable; their lands are newly conquered, the Sunflower Goddess is cray cray, and the Bai fucking hate them, but they don't have a single point of failure like the Cai.
The Bai are not existential threat to the Western Territories. The Bai might eventually manage to kill Sun Shao and his close relatives, but the province and even his house will survive.
- Location
- Finland
Sublime ancestor who is very much against empire as a concept, an army of third realms that are not going to last forever, and support of, who again?
Not the Cai, definitely not the Zheng, Xuang don't give a fuck and Golden Fields have no time for this shit.
So the Jin, maybe.
Bai may be despised, but they are also respected and feared, and with the Cai, are suddenly finding allies where Sun is loosing them.
I honestly would not be surprised if the endgame for Sun clan would be the leave the empire completely and become nothing more then the next set of jungle raiders worshipping the sunflower goddess.
So, survival, hooray, i doubt Sun Shao who started his rebellion would call it victory, though the Sun Shao who thought having his new wife, adopt, his grand daughter was a great idea might.
Cai may have a single point failure in Shenhua, in theory, but if anyone is going to manage to get a second white in their lifetime it is her.
The Sunflower Goddess has had some degree of access to Sun Shao and his family for a very long time. That's the entire reason he started a war where he had no win condition in the first place, you'll recall.
And we've seen Jungle cultivators before in some of the Silver Peak sect tests. "Be so horrific that enemies are compelled to attack you" is a trick they pull.
What I'm getting at: this might not be an opportunity handed to the Sunflower Goddess on a silver platter. She might have been building to it.
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Emperor was given the information about Bai & Sun Shao after his wife was killed by Bai assassins (they had 1 daughter, the current Empress). Bai really know this diplomacy thing.
Keep in mind the Sunflower Goddess is arguably just as connected to Qin as to the Priestess. She is also all about the transgressing of boundaries: desire and disgust, predator and prey, conqueror and conquered, self and the other, etc.
While its hard to tell, I think the story is more interesting if she sees a kindred spirit in Sun Shao. That they actually do love each other, even as they also hate each other. An earnest relationship that is nonetheless toxic to its core. In many ways Sun Shao is her child, as his Way is defined around her and is a product of her actions. Yet she is also the child of conquest.
...
I just had a horrible thought: Sun Shao is the lord of carrion, drawing power from those he has slain and repurposing their flesh into his weapons. He is also about to die of old age. Meanwhile the Sunflower Goddess is a spirit of life in its most predatory and violent incarnations. They are married, Life and Death together.
Furthermore, outside of Forge, we know that Yrs plays Dominions. One of the factions in Dominions is Asphodel the Carrion Woods, which mixes life and death magic together in the pursuit of an aimless vengeance against everything.
I would not be surprised if Sun Shao became a corpse immortal driven by his desire to protect his family at all costs and maybe the Sunflower Goddess becomes pregnant shortly thereafter. And then all hell breaks loose, both having been consumed by their child.
But that's obviously a longshot.
While its hard to tell, I think the story is more interesting if she sees a kindred spirit in Sun Shao. That they actually do love each other, even as they also hate each other. An earnest relationship that is nonetheless toxic to its core. In many ways Sun Shao is her child, as his Way is defined around her and is a product of her actions. Yet she is also the child of conquest.
...
I just had a horrible thought: Sun Shao is the lord of carrion, drawing power from those he has slain and repurposing their flesh into his weapons. He is also about to die of old age. Meanwhile the Sunflower Goddess is a spirit of life in its most predatory and violent incarnations. They are married, Life and Death together.
Furthermore, outside of Forge, we know that Yrs plays Dominions. One of the factions in Dominions is Asphodel the Carrion Woods, which mixes life and death magic together in the pursuit of an aimless vengeance against everything.
I would not be surprised if Sun Shao became a corpse immortal driven by his desire to protect his family at all costs and maybe the Sunflower Goddess becomes pregnant shortly thereafter. And then all hell breaks loose, both having been consumed by their child.
But that's obviously a longshot.
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Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
It seems that way because he's never had much screen time in Ling Qi's life, therefore we don't get any information about him. But even then, we do know that he 1) had firm support of the previous Emperor up until his ascension 2) tried to earn favor and help of the current Empress for quite some time 3) still has many friends in Celestial Peaks 4) tried for a long time to do what he claimed to do - conquer the jungle. Considering he has like 2 interludes that touch upon him across hundreds of thousands of words, that's quite a lot imo.
Now, he certainly failed in half of those things he tried to do and that's a firm strike against him, but the attempts were there. I'm sure if we get more information on him, there will be even more opportunities he tried to grab and failed before he resorted to what we saw in Welcome to the Jungle. I doubt someone as accomplished as him would be stupid enough to sit on his ass and just wait for the situation to become better on its own.
On another note, I'm also not really sure that his ancestor-ing of Liling failed in its purpose. Of course, it does make the Sun closer to the barbarians that had lived there, but it also makes Sunflower actually defend them and somewhat care for them (in her twisted way, but still). I doubt she did anything to defend previous barbarians. That, with the added fact that Sun Shao stole Bai's entire military from them (which they've yet to even begin reforming afaik), does make physical destruction/subjugation of Sun by Bai nearly impossible in the next millenia. Plenty of time for Liling to think of something.
- Location
- Finland
Sun Shao stole significant amount of the Bai armies, but i doubt it was all of them, and has probably wrecked not insignificant amount of the remainder since then.
But that was, i dunno, couple centuries back or more, Bai have armies, they might not be as strong as they once were, but they have them.
Though i would not worry about armies if i was Sun Shao, Bai do not want to attack the jungle, instead he should worry about external trade, alliances, and assassins targetting his family once the nuclear deterrent of him is gone.
But that was, i dunno, couple centuries back or more, Bai have armies, they might not be as strong as they once were, but they have them.
Though i would not worry about armies if i was Sun Shao, Bai do not want to attack the jungle, instead he should worry about external trade, alliances, and assassins targetting his family once the nuclear deterrent of him is gone.
- Location
- Yes
No, his plan was use the imperial throne and the other ducals to restrain the Bai. This was working for centuries, but the imperial throne started to let up with the new empress and last year the Cai suddenly switched sides to ally with the Bai. He pursued all his other options to prevent the extermination of his family and it is only now that he's been so thoroughly backed into a corner.