Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Also I don't really like the idea of delaying cultivation. We are still going to be the people voting for what our domain is right?
The reason to "delay" cultivation, which likely wouldn't end up with much lack of base cultivation anyway given the likely size of Appraisal and the delay our physical has, is because if we hurry too quickly we'll end up in a point where we can't do base cultivation any more. That's a scenario where we are wasting effort and resources and a lot of the math involved in making Ling Qi as powerful as possible is based on doing as much as possible with as little waste as possible.
 
A significant part of our sustainability is our huge Qi pool and our Qi regen from multiple sources.

If we are fighting indoors we are floating over the ground, it's a magical spiritual dress not a pair of wings.

Without flight, it's a good tech. With flight, it sounds utterly amazing.

Not really. It's basically a less potent SCS with larceny strapped on.

Also I don't really like the idea of delaying cultivation. We are still going to be the people voting for what our domain is right?

We've got so much to do, we'll be doing back log for ages. No need to rush picking up new stuff.

Watching hundred+ messages zoom by on discord has been dizzying

In any case, I need to turn in.
 
I would have to agree with you there, flight wasn't particularly difficult for Ling Qi with the gown before the system change. And with how ranks interact, the gap between them getting bigger with each rank, the gown costing continuous E rank for it sounds relatively cheap.

It's amongst our cheapest effects. A lot of Ling Qi's techniques are D or C for example. With B35 available Qi something E cost is three ranks below it.

Not sure on the net zero, but it definitely reduces the cost. Plus there's the demonstrated tactic with FSS feeding on qi to fuel our activities.

It's not net zero. Wouldn't have had to leech those yellows over and over again if it was.

We could pick up lark, or, we can pick up the SCS successor. Successors are pretty good baseline.

We were planning on picking it up anyway, and picking up lark too just adds a lot of unnecessary redundancy.
Our gown should improve when we get to the next stage. It did last time.
 
The reason to "delay" cultivation, which likely wouldn't end up with much lack of base cultivation anyway given the likely size of Appraisal and the delay our physical has, is because if we hurry too quickly we'll end up in a point where we can't do base cultivation any more. That's a scenario where we are wasting effort and resources and a lot of the math involved in making Ling Qi as powerful as possible is based on doing as much as possible with as little waste as possible.
Alright, I can understand that, what is it exactly that we need to be focussing on?
 
Can we afford to stay at the top of Green/bronze 2 awhile to make sure that we pick the best domain?
It is impossible to pick a "best domain". That is kinda like saying "can we afford to stay at Yellow 3 so we can have the best breakthrough?"; if you want a perfect breakthrough you are going to be sitting around forever picking up more and more marginal benefits. The same applies to a domain - we could sit around forever sampling arts looking for something that works just a teeeeensy bit more synergetically.

A better question I think is whether we can afford to stay at that level to make sure we pick a great domain - and I think we can do that, yeah. Honestly the logic around domain effectiveness is fuzzy enough that we can only grasp in the direction of "right" anyways, so all we need to do is find 2 or 3 (depending on whether our initial "Home" insight counts) arts that we want to slot. That shouldn't be unreasonably hard; we have FVM/SCS/TRF/FSS all finishing at Green 2, and I think we will want to slot at least 2 of them, possibly 3.
 
Alright, I can understand that, what is it exactly that we need to be focussing on?
First there's enough factors to that question that my answer will be by necessity somewhat imprecise. It would do you good to come to your own opinion on it by talking to more than just me.

Right now what is being focused on is three big things; Most of our arts are locked behind being Green Soul Appraisal. We cannot progress them until we get that, and we need to be consistently progressing on them to meet Shenhua's task and also the challenges of the Inner Sect, both in the sense of disciples and various trial sites and exploring in general. We also need to be progressing on them because they are now the key that will let us get to Green 3, the Foundation Stage, and continue the whole parade of progression.

We also have to cultivate Eight Phase Ceremony, EPC, because it is our main cultivation art and provides many good bonuses to our arts and generally the better it is the faster and cheaper we can raise our arts due to its bonuses. We may be able to train it starting next month, but we also might not. If we can we really need to get to level seven as soon as is possible because the virtual green stone(i.e a free green stone) provides good cost saving and means we can sustain higher green stone use. Higher green stone use means we progress significantly faster, which again ties into the whole Shenhua task thing.

The third thing is getting SCS up to par. It is one of our core defensive and infiltration options, and provides nice options for our activities. We currently have it lagging some what behind it's loot batch mate FVM, just because that's how the last thread turned out, so it is hanging around Green 1 potency right now. To bring it to par we need to level it. It can also provides skill and attribute training for important skills like dodge or Wits.

We also need to work on our skills and attributes, since those are much more important than they were in the first thread. That's sort of under the hood and much less broad strokes than the first three. The big ones here are Presence and our defensive skills, Fortitude, Fade, Resilience. Those help determine how good Ling Qi's defenses are and some of them are lagging. Presence is really important because our Penetration, basically how much we hurt, is low because it is low. Luckily it ranked up this month, so it is not as bad as it was at the start, but it still needs a lot of work dumped into it. We also cannot forget Manipulation and Woodwind, which are also really really important.

E: Then there's the whole like, build concept thing me, Erebeal, Theo, Arkeus, Black Noise, Raising Kittens and George were talking about.

E2: Raising Kittens has some good math on the whole Green Stone thing.
 
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We also need to work on our skills and attributes, since those are much more important than they were in the first thread. That's sort of under the hood and much less broad strokes than the first three. The big ones here are Presence and our defensive skills, Fortitude, Fade, Resilience. Those help determine how good Ling Qi's defenses are and some of them are lagging. Presence is really important because our Penetration, basically how much we hurt, is low because it is low. Luckily it ranked up this month, so it is not as bad as it was at the start, but it still needs a lot of work dumped into it. We also cannot forget Manipulation and Woodwind, which are also really really important.
Not to mention we've got a capped Dodge that needs to spawn a new skill ASAP.

Still, we seem to be in a fairly good spot, overall a low-B in derived stats, counting the constant low-light.
 
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"Of course," Ling Qi replied immediately. What fun, but she could…

"You will be providing the entertainment," her liege said bluntly. "There is little point in wasting your talents. Your musical ability is a superior tool in the Inner Sect environment. I do expect you to keep your ears open, however, and continue improving your other abilities."

Harmony of the Dancing Wind

LQ: CRX I have found the solution !

CRX: The solution to what ?

LQ: To having to entertain and spy on people at your parties. At last I found the perfect art for this ! I am just going to cultivate it at any future party and ignore everything else !

CRX: ...

CRX: Why are you the way you are.
 
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I've been spitballing, and I think CWY is the greatest art we could've asked for.

We use Welcoming in Shadow to force our enemies to come to our location and then summon Zhengui on top of our location to splat them.

Imagine the faces if we did it in a duel.

With this clear stroke of genius, I'm off to bed to contemplate more sage strategies.
 
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LQ: CRX I have found the solution !

CRX: The solution to what ?

LQ: To having to entertain and spy on people at your parties. At last I found the perfect art for this ! I am just going to cultivate it at any future party and ignore everything else !

CRX: ...

CRX: Why are you the way you are.

But... my liege... just let me show you the spreadsheets! The graphs!
 
I think it is important to note that none of these arts should be seen as replacements to any of the core arts we are finishing soon (TRF, SCS, FVM, or FSS). Our arts in question finish at Potency 2 and these Arts finish at Potency 2-3; it is not much of a difference, if any. In fact, if you compare XP totals dedicated to the arts*, I think that our long term arts are strictly ahead of any of the new guys.

(*Note that unlikely comparing actions required, comparing total XP required should be a fair comparison of strength. If we were to pick up two arts off the ground right now, we would expect that higher XP requirements correspond to higher total strength, all else being equal. The same is not true for actions, especially if you are comparing actions taken back when we were Yellow to actions being taken now.)

A corollary of this is that we should NOT be looking for arts that compete directly with our current arts for actions. Since our current suite does cover combat pretty comprehensively, we should instead be looking for arts that will provide either:
  1. Domain Inspirations,
  2. Good passives,
  3. Non-combat abilities,
  4. Combat abilities which take advantage of a combat "phase" we don't currently use, or
  5. Combat abilities which are specialized and extraordinarily powerful in their specialization.
Examples of (4) are abilities that let us attack from greater range, set traps before combat, set up a sneak attack right before engaging, etc.
Examples of (5) would be abilities like Thousand Rings Unbreaking perfect knockback resist, or Traveler's End perfect dispel-resist for things under it's umbrella.
 
Hey @yrsillar this has been a long running questions of mine which popped up again in Discord.

Do turns exist in combat still? What does "action" mean when you use it in Duration and Combat Chat? Do the delinations like full action, normal action, instant action, reaction, the whole DnD esque action chopping still exist?
 
I think it is important to note that none of these arts should be seen as replacements to any of the core arts we are finishing soon (TRF, SCS, FVM, or FSS). Our arts in question finish at Potency 2 and these Arts finish at Potency 2-3; it is not much of a difference, if any. In fact, if you compare XP totals dedicated to the arts*, I think that our long term arts are strictly ahead of any of the new guys.

(*Note that unlikely comparing actions required, comparing total XP required should be a fair comparison of strength. If we were to pick up two arts off the ground right now, we would expect that higher XP requirements correspond to higher total strength, all else being equal. The same is not true for actions, especially if you are comparing actions taken back when we were Yellow to actions being taken now.)

A corollary of this is that we should NOT be looking for arts that compete directly with our current arts for actions. Since our current suite does cover combat pretty comprehensively, we should instead be looking for arts that will provide either:
  1. Domain Inspirations,
  2. Good passives,
  3. Non-combat abilities,
  4. Combat abilities which take advantage of a combat "phase" we don't currently use, or
  5. Combat abilities which are specialized and extraordinarily powerful in their specialization.
Examples of (4) are abilities that let us attack from greater range, set traps before combat, set up a sneak attack right before engaging, etc.
Examples of (5) would be abilities like Thousand Rings Unbreaking perfect knockback resist, or Traveler's End perfect dispel-resist for things under it's umbrella.
If you look at it that way:
Covetous Wraith's Yearning
Freaking amazing sensory ability: seeing people's desires and bonds is cheating already, but this also gives us hints as to how insinuate ourselves into that. The same sensory art also boosts initiative and avoid, truly excellent.

I certainly would like Seeking the Hearthfire as Inspiration, it's useful in and out of combat, and while not quite passive, it has a Long duration. So that alone I would say fills 1 and 3 and arguably 2.

The inescapable compulsion is also nice, as it gives a yes/no condition for working: the targets Resolve rank. It's making our tar pit even more inescapable, if at a cost. In a way, it's a candidate for fulfilling 5, as unlike the others it's crunchier instead of more narrative.
Ephemeral Nights Memory
Gives us two valuable things:
- A way to lower "awareness level"
- Perfect set up skill: we can use it to immediately deliver a sneak attack, to go hiding and forcing the target to find us again, or perhaps even on more elaborate bait-and-switch schemes.

I'd say it'd qualify for 1 due to just being that useful, and 3 is amazing for the stealth potential, and arguably 4/5 depending on how you see the ability to enter stealth or set up a SA.
The scouts are nice, I won't lie. But I rate the chance of there not being spiritual barriers to block these guys in actual important places as low.

Perception boost seems strong, but generic.
Harmony of the Dancing Wind
Sonar Minimap and Inspire Courage are both quite good, quite nice abilities that I'd love having. The sonar especially is a new ability for us.

But ultimately, I can live without.
Audacious Fairy's Lark
Talisman theft mid-fight has been the dream since day one, and being SCS+ on the rest is quite appealing.

Overall, Ephemeral Night's Memory has two tremendously useful and pretty unique abilities, the pure stealth and the combat set-up, Covetous Wrath's Yearnings has a mindbogingly fantastic perception aspect and a special ability we could build around, and Audacious Fairy's Lark has the much-desired larceny art and a powerhouse ability to go with it.

Curious Diviner is interesting, and Harmony of Dancing Wind has two very solid techs, but I'd say they are the least appealing of the bunch at this time.
 
ENM is a straight "instant"-equivalent self-buff (Immediate now I guess). Trouble landing MotV? What about Lunatic Whirl? This is perfect for that and IMO much better in combat than the stealth aspects, and in addition to them too. It'd only get better as it gains techs and potency.
 
Freaking amazing sensory ability: seeing people's desires and bonds is cheating already, but this also gives us hints as to how insinuate ourselves into that. The same sensory art also boosts initiative and avoid, truly excellent.

I certainly would like Seeking the Hearthfire as Inspiration, it's useful in and out of combat, and while not quite passive, it has a Long duration. So that alone I would say fills 1 and 3 and arguably 2.

The inescapable compulsion is also nice, as it gives a yes/no condition for working: the targets Resolve rank. It's making our tar pit even more inescapable, if at a cost. In a way, it's a candidate for fulfilling 5, as unlike the others it's crunchier instead of more narrative.
I question Heathfire's ability to be better than our current alternatives in combat. The Shadow ability has a good bit of combat utility when it lands, but I fear that it will simply never land against peer opponents, and I question the value of another way to deal with weaker opponents given how many such options we have already.

I agree that the non-combat use is terrific.

Gives us two valuable things:
- A way to lower "awareness level"
- Perfect set up skill: we can use it to immediately deliver a sneak attack, to go hiding and forcing the target to find us again, or perhaps even on more elaborate bait-and-switch schemes.

I'd say it'd qualify for 1 due to just being that useful, and 3 is amazing for the stealth potential, and arguably 4/5 depending on how you see the ability to enter stealth or set up a SA.
The theme of the art doesn't resonate with me for a domain slotting. I agree that its non-combat abilities are great; it lets us effectively lower the difficult of stealth missions by a tier. It has some limited utility for 4 (it could help us set up for combat but only when we are about to surprise our enemy but aren't perfectly stealthed, which seems like a somewhat niche situation).
 
Indeed, the more I think of it, the more I like it. It seems like the winning option: two new and unique abilities, extremely useful both inside and outside of combat, plays well with everything we have.

When it comes to it, I will probably vote for it.

But I can't help but want Super Fairy Powers and Skyrim Stealing.
 
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ENM is a straight "instant"-equivalent self-buff (Immediate now I guess). Trouble landing MotV? What about Lunatic Whirl? This is perfect for that and IMO much better in combat than the stealth aspects, and in addition to them too. It'd only get better as it gains techs and potency.
Yea, a straight up instant single-attack boost is one of the few abilities we don't have coverage on. It still means we displace something else (probably a defensive boost), but that could be worth it for a really important attack on our part.
 
Yea, a straight up instant single-attack boost is one of the few abilities we don't have coverage on. It still means we displace something else (probably a defensive boost), but that could be worth it for a really important attack on our part.
It works far better as part of the opening strike package.

E: Like to expand on this I don't expect direct trades to have to be required in the sense that "We must have X many effects going, some defensive some offensive". But I do expect that what we use to start a fight will inform how we approach the rest of it. Just like how we decided perform the fight and how we close it up and end it inform on the fight.

Put that way it's kinda obvious, but eh, that's how it goes. Anyway, I would expect that using it in the middle of a fight is made more plausible if Ling Qi can manufacture a moment of breathing room. Stuff like PLR and FVM distractions.
 
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I'd like to voice some reservations about CWY:
Covetous Wraith's Yearning
Keywords: Dark, Desire, Empathy, Connection, Perceptiveness, Presence, Yin

Most spirits of darkness are quiescant things, wisps born in the night and dead by morning, comfortable in their irrelevance and nonexistence. Those that cling to existence under the rays of the morning sun are hungry things, stained by desires drawn from human and beast alike. The desire to be, and live, and take. In many ways spirits of darkness are a reflection of the fundamental drives of life, and as such there is much understanding to be gained from their perspective.
This art is fundamentally about desire, so much that I'm surprised Hunger isn't a keyword. Tech-wise I'll talk separately about utility (social or combat), theme and my opinions on suitability.

Passives: mostly social perception, initiative and sp.armor. Overall pretty good, but then all the arts here have relevant passives.

Seeking the Hearthfire:
Using this art, the user channels dark qi through their mundanes senses, enhancing their ability to understand the desires and bonds between those in their sight, and the ways in which they might insinuate themselves into those things. This sharpening of senses also allows the user to react more quickly to the hostility of foes, increasing their initiative and avoid.
  • Mechanically it is a fairly potent social combat tech, with some fairly heavy manipulation themes, and in-combat it is a hostility-sense that works to increase our initiative and avoid.
    • The combat utility is obvious and undeniable, but overall fairly minor.
    • Socially it certainly looks strong, but it's hard to say if Presence-based manipulation of relatively unknown groups is a skillset we'll get much use of, especially considering our other tools.
  • Thematically this is the art of the social manipulator. Of Fu Xiang (probably, seems the type) and of Jack Slash, while not bad in and of itself, it does carry unfortunate connotations, especially coupled with its inherent themes of desire.
  • Utility-wise, while the combat section is useful in general it's not what we were looking for in this art dive (that being comprehensive perception and some actual stealth). Socially, I'd much prefer the Sixiang approach to social combat;
    Laughing Moonlit Maiden: E
    Instant
    Channeling through their bond with their binder, Sixiang may grant Ling Qi an air of amiable approachability, and make her words seem both more fair and agreeable. Grants Ling Qi Sixiang's passive bonuses to persuade and socialize challenges for a Short time.
    An approachable moon fairy that can talk you into anything for a new friend. Without that "like good ol Jack" aftertaste CWY is gonna have. More than that, Harmony of the Dancing Wind has the following core theme:
    [...]and in doing, teaches the musician to see and pluck at the lesser patterns and connections in the world around. The harmony reveals the web which connects all things, if the players eyes are but sharp enough to see.
    It too is a social combat-heavy art, at or so the passives indicate, and this seems like a music-tinted and less dark way of seeing the same sort of thing, long-term.
  • In general I'm a proponent of keeping our dark/monstrous aspects on the physical battlefield. CWY social is the sort of art you'd take to a pit of demons by yourself donning the mask of a demon so they would recognize you as kin. Not very elegant-moon-fairy like.

Welcoming in Shadow:
The darkness spirit might seem a pitable thing, ut it does not due to forget the danger and hunger they represent. Desire is a deadly thing, and has unmade many. Shrouding themselves in the raiment of the dark, the user tugs at the strings of an enemies desires, focusing their attention upon them. An enemy so affected will approach the user at their full speed, and may target no one else while under their this thrall. The approach effect can be resisted with a resolve of C or greater. While this technique is active, the users armor of both types increases significantly, as they take on a wraiths phantasmal traits.
  • Mechanically it looks like a decently powerful single-target (might grow into AoE but hard to say) Taunt combined with a fairly significant armoring up, which notably works for spiritual armor. It has the problem of running off our presence though, in terms of landing the taunt and resisting dispels. Also in a fight we are the support, and building a stealth specialty besides. Forcing direct attention on us with a presence-based art seems very anti-stealth and also not the best idea. Much better to let Zhengui do such things, or use arts to force attention on him instead. (we're hoping to stay relatively tanky, but we are not meant to handle the direct attention of a peer combat specialist).
    • Synergy with FVM or PLR's gating effects have been raised and while valid they're also kinda confusing. The kinds of opponents that get caught in this effect we'll be destroying already with our layered area effects, while opponents that won't be snared or destroyed are not the kind we want running at our face at their full speed.
    • An actually useful Taunt-like effect for us would be attention control, where we can direct aggro to a target of our discretion that isn't us. PLR might go that way with its illusions, Zhengui might figure a taunt of his own making this whole category redundant since he's the best tank.
    • Frankly this technique and art would serve us much better if the taunt aspect were removed entirely. Something I think is very unlikely since the technique and, indeed, the art itself, is founded on Desire.
  • Thematically we become an irresistible beacon of dark desire and also take on phantasmal wraith traits that make us hard to damage. It's pretty close to what the face/skin cloak shaman guy had in Dark Dreams with slightly less body horror. I guess it's an OK theme but like, where does it sit with LQ's themes, current and desired?
  • Utility-wise, while a raiment of phantasmal darkness probably looks metal as fuck and apparently provides a fairly good armor and spiritual armor buff, I would prefer a more dedicated sp.armor/dispel resist/(armor?) focused art that's based off of more appropriate themes than desire and presence. The taunt effect can go die in a fire as far as it being good for us is concerned.
General impression is: If Meizhen were a more examplar Bai (read:evil) and didn't have superior Bai arts then this is would be a perfect fit for her. We're not Meizhen. Not in combat role nor in social approach. Let's not.

More broadly, I'm not exactly happy with any of the perception arts we got in this art dive, at least as far as the visible level1 goes, but of the bunch CWY is undoubtedly the worst fit. It is powerful socially but that power comes with a price I doubt we need to pay at this point, and the combat parts are covering bases that should be covered by much better-fitting arts, ones without glaring clashes with the combat strategy we're going for.

---

For the other arts:

For Perception, Harmony has some very interesting conceptual framework that will make avoiding our sight in combat very hard, but it suffers from a severe case of music-sized setup time. Though the friends-based TRF-lite for spiritual isn't bad, and it is thematically rather excellent for us, especially for those of us who want to see Wind incorporated in a significant way. Diviner's Eyes is currently somewhat awkward and heavily utility-focused, with some powerful but unusable-at-its-state combat potential. It's also has the most obvious future-growth potential what with being based on Weilu traditions, and can likely result in a ridiculously powerful core for Perception art to replace AM since it's based off of arts by a guy known as "Diviner".

Ephemeral Nights Memory is an unexpected windfall. It is thematically analogous to SCS and comes as a Wind/Dark art focused on Stealth/Fade; this is pretty much one of the theoretical optimal arts to add to our build for those two purposes, and this one comes with a very powerful memory-based stealth. I honestly did not expect access to effects of this nature this early on. (also in case it's not blindingly obvious: this is an art we should be very reluctant to put into our Domain unless the lessons therein are very good)

Audacious Fairy's Lark... I'm ambivalent. This art is fairly amazing but frankly, it kinda sucks for us. At least as far direct, common-case, serious combat utility goes. This isn't the old systems where numbers stack with no reason. The jetpack-like effect would be a great boon to our aerial maneuverability... if we couldn't teleport and weren't looking for a perception art that would let us further abuse SCS's insane mobility. To illustrate the point:
The user's footsteps are light, and they float freely over the earth, bendy nary a single strand of grass in their passing. In flight, the user is merely pushed aside by blows that might have struck home, floating from danger like a cascade of flower petals in the wind. Greatly enhances the users speed and stealth by allowing them to defy gravity for short bursts. With flight, this technique is greatly enhanced, and physical avoid is enhanced as well.
  • In red we have things we either have as permanent passives from SCS or are just done better by SCS.
  • In orange;
    • the "in flight +avoid" is useful if we're engaged in aerial combat. This isn't useless but it's so niche as to be questionable overall. Also SCS teleport abuse and whatever esoteric mobility PLR decides to grow once the leg meridians start mattering. Probably place-swapping with illusions or something.
    • the second orange part seems like a reiteration of the first in more concrete mechanical terms. It does not mean we get enhanced stealth during flight.
The theft tech is great on the face of it, but to use it we need to do a melee attack from stealth. If we're in position to do that, a more to-the-point backstab-for-massive-damage art would work much better. All that said, outside of combat? ALF and its theft aspect gives us Art-backed potency to our larceny, especially in non direct-combat situations. Also ridiculous trolling potential. Under Jiao's lessons we managed without just fine though, and it's worth noting that while with this art we could have say, yoink Heizui's bullshit pendant in that fight, it doesn't mean said pendant doesn't come with a "disintegrate the unworthy" effect like the imperial throne.

---

(math got delayed due to update and the fact we're getting 1/3-1/2 sized arts. AP cost is somewhat deceptive since we can't fit all that without scrunching a bit but it's still far from our core art 1.2-2k for Appraisal only levels of xp. It seems like we're given room to explore and experiment, especially with the way Archive dive voting works now and the amount of arts they return).

(also lol at the moon/water art, of course we'll see a useful art with Water in there).
 
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