- Location
- United States
I meant before Viserys died, but yeah, good point.
The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
- Thread starter Teen Spirit
- Start date
I meant before Viserys died, but yeah, good point.
Toaster cult
I Am An Imaginary Living Body
- Location
- Tokyo
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Does provide the very funny quirk of what if we just call ourselves King when we take the throne, although theres probably precedent from the 7 kingdoms of Queens ruling in name as queen. But just using King anyway would be kinda swag
I'll admit I also thought something like that, mostly because of how funny it'd be to bald-facedly force all the lords to call Rhaenyra "King"
At the same time, I don't know whether or not this would make it more palatable for them or just feel straight up mocking the fact that they're gonna be led by a woman and they can suck it up lol
- Pronouns
- Reader
I personally always prefer an extensive divergence, so I admit I'd love to hear the top three "out there" divergences we had a chance of triggering with scholar Rhaenyra.
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
I wonder who much of the Reach (Daemon Blackfyre's major stomping ground) we can get by playing up the Chivalric Warrior Queen Angle?
Annatar
Lord of Gifts
- Location
- Pittsburgh
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
Not as much as Daemon purely because he also had the anti-Dornish sentiment of the Reach to rely on. Unless Rhaenyra decides to play that up and go full Daeron the Young Dragon, we won't have as much or as reliable support as Daemon did.
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
@Teen Spirit, what would have happened if Corlys had taken the deal (and/or Rhaenys convinced to take it)?
That could be an angle to play. I mean, what is the point of a warrior, if there is no war to fight?
We probably could conquer Dorne, if we found a good admiral and were careful with our Dragons.
Susano
Council Candidate
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
None by chivalry. We are not chivalric. In fact we're making a downright mockery of chivalry by doing chivalric stuff as a woman. Do not think we can sway people with that. We're doing that whole knight and chivalry thing solely for ourselves; socially and culturally it's a pure liability.
Even our sworn shield is not convinced by our chivalry, but rather by us being a warrior, which is not the same thing at all. See for example how he lauded us for semi-dismissing tournaments en lieu of ability at actual war. We are a capable warrior and some people might respect that, but we're making a mockery of the whole culture surrounding it (as far as the people of that culture are concerned)
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- Location
- United States
I mean it's probably not a good idea policy wise and would likely be an immoral and unjustified war of conquest but if we want a war to hone ourselves in but don't want to screw around in the Stepstones Dorne wouldn't be the most unreasonable thing. And "the person largely responsible for Dorne's conquest" could be a boon legitimacy wise.
Don't think this is necessarily true. Some people are certainly going to feel that way, but we don't feel that way, Alicent doesn't feel that way, Tarly doesn't feel that way. It seems plausible others won't feel that way either.
I feel like the hard and fast division you're making between warrior and chivalry is kind of false. While Tarly cares more about the warrior angle than chivalry, he at least shows that some people have ideas about a sort of masculine ideal ruler that isn't super tightly tied to that ruler's actual sex, and there could be others like him.
I think while this certainly could become true if we get off on the wrong foot and people get dug in reinforcing their preconceptions and biases', right now they're probably less so, especially if we can get official backings and blessings.
(That said, there will certainly be some people like Cole who do feel that way regardless of what we do).
Edit: On that note, while religion hasn't come up as enough in this quest that I'd push for this if it doesn't come up, I'd kind of like the idea of meeting with the High Septon or Most Devout while in Oldtown. I feel like there's stuff we could plausibly offer, like dropping the Doctrine of Exceptionalism or a spot on the small council when we inherit, in exchange for some sort of religious blessing to violate gender norms, which might help with cultural friction and would set good precedent. Also, if the conflict does end up being along us vs. Daemon/Velayron lines, then it seems like we could position ourselves as the Westerosi Targaryen vs. unassimilated and faithless Daemon.
Don't think this is necessarily true. Some people are certainly going to feel that way, but we don't feel that way, Alicent doesn't feel that way, Tarly doesn't feel that way. It seems plausible others won't feel that way either.
I feel like the hard and fast division you're making between warrior and chivalry is kind of false. While Tarly cares more about the warrior angle than chivalry, he at least shows that some people have ideas about a sort of masculine ideal ruler that isn't super tightly tied to that ruler's actual sex, and there could be others like him.
I think while this certainly could become true if we get off on the wrong foot and people get dug in reinforcing their preconceptions and biases', right now they're probably less so, especially if we can get official backings and blessings.
(That said, there will certainly be some people like Cole who do feel that way regardless of what we do).
Edit: On that note, while religion hasn't come up as enough in this quest that I'd push for this if it doesn't come up, I'd kind of like the idea of meeting with the High Septon or Most Devout while in Oldtown. I feel like there's stuff we could plausibly offer, like dropping the Doctrine of Exceptionalism or a spot on the small council when we inherit, in exchange for some sort of religious blessing to violate gender norms, which might help with cultural friction and would set good precedent. Also, if the conflict does end up being along us vs. Daemon/Velayron lines, then it seems like we could position ourselves as the Westerosi Targaryen vs. unassimilated and faithless Daemon.
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i doubt that it would matter much, in the current time period the reach can be divided into hightower supporters and those that are anti-hightower and will join the opposition regardless of our actions, and a vanishingly small group of neutrals that could join either side but are more than likely to sit out any conflict
Honestly I was also thinking of suggesting that, as I mentioned earlier, Aegon I always got the blessing of the High Septon whenever he visited Oldtown and I really wanted to have that parallel but at the same time I'm not sure if that's a King-thing only (as Iirc Aenys also did it early on) or if the Heir can also do it.
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
@Teen Spirit, is anything happening on Dragonstone?
Edit: @Teen Spirit, if we use Aegon's TV Crown (which looks disgusting BTW), would it possible get some who can re-work Valyrian Steel so it looks like Aegon's Book Crown?
Why does Alicent have damaged Hands? Is this another TV Canon thing?
@Teen Spirit, What would this have done?
Edit: @Teen Spirit, if we use Aegon's TV Crown (which looks disgusting BTW), would it possible get some who can re-work Valyrian Steel so it looks like Aegon's Book Crown?
Why does Alicent have damaged Hands? Is this another TV Canon thing?
@Teen Spirit, What would this have done?
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- Location
- United States
I mean IRL you can get a blessing from a priest pretty easily? Getting a blessing from like a bishop or a pope is a bigger deal, but since we're doing the like adjudicating disputes progress then asking for like a blessing that the Father will aid us in judging justly would seem pretty normal.
Of course the fact that we're gnc might make him feel like he has leverage to ask for something in return even if he's not another Cole (which he might be). Since we're doing the adjudicating disputes maybe we can settle some affair in the faith's favor? As long as it's a reasonable ask & not asking us to screw over an ally I'd be inclined to accept though.
Hmmm… the only thing I can find on the High Septon during the reigns of Viserys or the Dance is that he didn't travel to King's Landing for Aegon II's coronation due to age and health reasons, and that after Otto imprisoned supporters of Rhaenyra in KL he asked after some of them. (This might not even be the same guy though, it's not clear when a new High Septon was chosen).
TV canon thing. Alicent picks and bites her nails to the point of bleeding when she's stressed.
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Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
@Teen Spirit did Viserys exchange letters with the other marriage candidates (i.e. Deria Martell, Victaria Tyrell & Sabitha Vypren)?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No but he would have had the westerlings not been receptive
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
Why do I get the feeling that someone might try to force the issue?
I mean, sure we would (probably) be able to kill whoever tried that but I might lead to diplomatic difficulties (if we don't cover it up properly).
- Pronouns
- They/Them
If people are going to try to kidnap and force into marriage an actual fucking Targaryan who is the heir to the throne, then we won't have to cover up their deaths. We'll probably be asked to make sure to leave enough left so that it can be hung up from the wall of the Red Keep, though.
Zimmerwald1915
Revolutionary Defeatist
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm sure Syrax can be suitably accommodating.
- Location
- Canada
Attempting to perform a bride abduction on the ruling royal family, let alone the Heir to the Throne, is called treason
Doing this to the people who have actual dragons is called suicide
Assuming this bout of insanity was confined to just a few individuals, their entire House would be shitting themselves and desperate to throw anyone and everyone involved to the Targaryans in a plea for mercy
There is no one who will contest Rhaenyra for anything she does to the perpetrator if that kind of plot comes to light
They'd be lucky if she just kills them then and there, being taken alive to be formally made an example of would be far worse
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Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
Well, Westeros is full of ambitious idiots that make things worse for other people. We need to look no further then Renly in ASOIAF Canon (without his Royal Ambitions, the War of the Five Kings would have instead been The Great Tricentennial Lion Stomp).
Plus, how would you feel if someone killed your brother or some other relative? Easy, you'll want revenge and thus will align yourself with someone who can grant you said revenge.
Plus, how would you feel if someone killed your brother or some other relative? Easy, you'll want revenge and thus will align yourself with someone who can grant you said revenge.
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- Location
- Canada
There is a reason why I said they'd be desperate to throw people under the bus if they had any sense
Trying to forcibly take control of the Targaryen dynasty in that blatant a fashion is practically a declaration of war
If the House is held responsible for the actions of their scion, then the standard and expected response for the Targaryens is to obliterate the offending House completely
There would be no relatives left to seek revenge
That would be considered a completely commensurate response
The House has outright declared itself an Enemy of the Realm, seeking to openly overthrow the power of the Throne
Any scenario where the House survives (probably because they immediately rolled over and started begging) would be considered very fortunate for them
And they would still be stripped of lands, titles and holdings to render them a shadow of their former selves, both to render them a non-threat and to properly send a message that the Targaryens are not messing around
Like, I do not think you properly understand exactly how far up shit creek anyone who tried what you are proposing would be
This is not court intrigue or political maneuvering anymore, this is an immediate prelude to open war, while simultaneously destabilizing your own (theoretical) rule for generations even if you somehow succeed
And if you're actually in a comfortable position to get away with that then you might as well just flat out march on the Red Keep and claim Right of Conquest
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- Pronouns
- sapper
bride abduction of the Heir of the royal family is about as wise as deliberatly sending a torpeodo at an American warship.
The response will be downright proportional.
To illustrate I give the following exempels
1. Japan struck 1 harbour base, and was left with most of it's cities burned down to the ground by deliberate firestorms.
2. Vietnam war, with over a decade of brutal occupation, attrocities, mass bombing and deforestation. Was started by an American warship seeing some weird blibls on the radar and sending out a message that they were under attack by North Vietnamese torpedo boats.
3. Iran had 1 drifting mine 'accidentially' explode under an American destroyer, which did not even sink. In response, the Americans send half the Iranian navy to the bottum of the Persian Gulf within a single day of action.
The Targaryan family is to Westerosi nobles what the American Navy is to all other navies in the world: by far the biggest most scary and occasionally completely rabbit-insane with bloodlust, along with the only group controllingdragons supercarriers. Don't mess with them
Anyone stupid enough to abduct the princess and then proudly presenting his new bride to his family will result in 1 of 2 options:
Option 1: his family immideatly murder him and all his co-conspirators then beg on bended knee for mercy. If the Targs are feeling mercifull, the family will 'merely' be exiled along with anyone of their name or blood in the nearest 12 generations. For context: being nobles who's wealth, honor and social status is entirely derived of their land, exile is almost a worse penalty then death.
Option 2: the family murders everyone involved, including the princess, then executes everyone who did the murdering. They bet on secrecry being the only thing that can protect them now, and hope that no one ever finds out they were involved.
The response will be downright proportional.
To illustrate I give the following exempels
1. Japan struck 1 harbour base, and was left with most of it's cities burned down to the ground by deliberate firestorms.
2. Vietnam war, with over a decade of brutal occupation, attrocities, mass bombing and deforestation. Was started by an American warship seeing some weird blibls on the radar and sending out a message that they were under attack by North Vietnamese torpedo boats.
3. Iran had 1 drifting mine 'accidentially' explode under an American destroyer, which did not even sink. In response, the Americans send half the Iranian navy to the bottum of the Persian Gulf within a single day of action.
The Targaryan family is to Westerosi nobles what the American Navy is to all other navies in the world: by far the biggest most scary and occasionally completely rabbit-insane with bloodlust, along with the only group controlling
Anyone stupid enough to abduct the princess and then proudly presenting his new bride to his family will result in 1 of 2 options:
Option 1: his family immideatly murder him and all his co-conspirators then beg on bended knee for mercy. If the Targs are feeling mercifull, the family will 'merely' be exiled along with anyone of their name or blood in the nearest 12 generations. For context: being nobles who's wealth, honor and social status is entirely derived of their land, exile is almost a worse penalty then death.
Option 2: the family murders everyone involved, including the princess, then executes everyone who did the murdering. They bet on secrecry being the only thing that can protect them now, and hope that no one ever finds out they were involved.
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Susano
Council Candidate
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
All examples of the 20th century, which kinda limits their utility.
On balance, it is not something we need to fear in Westeros, but it is also not something that would be universally always out there as some people try to make it out to be. There were periods in history where bride abduction of heiresses, even royal heiresses, was absolutely the norm. Abducting a heiress and then marrying her was a way to get a hold of the inheritance.
Of course that rests on some assumptions that don't hold in Westeros right now (like that women can't rule period and that instead husbands would rule jure uxoris, or that marriages are near-completely undissolvable), but some arguments brought forth here really just don't hit the mark.
- Location
- United States
Either way it's not something we can plan around.
The only one who tries something even vaguely like this in canon is Daemon. And that's more of an attempted consensual* affair which discredits one participant politically / could be used as political pressure for a marriage.
*not sure how old Rhaenyra was in canon at that time
The only one who tries something even vaguely like this in canon is Daemon. And that's more of an attempted consensual* affair which discredits one participant politically / could be used as political pressure for a marriage.
*not sure how old Rhaenyra was in canon at that time