The Hightowers were kings for longer than the existence of house Targaryen. Longer even than the Freehold. We may be dragonriders and Kings now but our Dynasty has only lasted a century, compared to the kings of Westeros who ruled for thousands of years unbroken before Aegon, it's a paltry sum of time.
-A "love match" would be a disadvantage, as we have to consider Alicent.
-Bracken, Blackwood, both Vances and Frey all have more land and men than the Tullys. And probably atm the Strongs, too. The point is rather that the Tullys have very few resources for a Great House. Their rule on the riverlands is very fragile (in theory, not that anything ever happens to them because nothing whatsofuckingever changes in the back history of ASOIAF, when suddenly houses are falling left and right in stark contrast to literally millennia before)
-I think we can see it as assured that Bracken and Blackwood will stand on opposite sides of whatever Dance is to come, unless someone on the enemy side as fucking stupid as Tywin to order them both attacked at the same time. Same with the two Houses Vance.
-Well, Aegon V married a Blackwood, and all that happened was his grandson turning insane. So much for powers Also, we are well served by powers from the "Fire" side of things, mostly our ability to bond with dragons, of course. I don't think we ever saw a person with both "Fire" and "Ice" powers. Arguably that would be the PWWP.
-A horse with dragon wings is still just HONSE
Eeeeh, I don't think a potential love match should be discounted completely even if it doesn't lead to love. It can just be that they actually get along instead of force themselves to be around each other out of duty's sake. That does bring something up that I'll leave separate from this since I know this to be total longshot for fun.
A Tully political match that leaves them reliant on us probably isn't good in the long-term since if they're ever without dragons for whatever reason it'll destabilize the middle of our or our descendants realm. I'd hope if we go through with this match we give them either more land from defeated vassals when the Dance of Whatever Flavor happens or some other way. Of course maybe being the 'Velaryons of the Land' is an end goal worth striving for in that future Targaryens will look to them for matches for...Valyrian reasons.
The Bracken and Blackwoods might still be at, relative, peace from the lingering Good Vibes from The Old King's reign. Might take some finagling on our or our in-laws end but that can continue. Maybe. Fingers crossed?
I blame Bloodraven hogging all the magic mojo at that time, personally. A Thousand Eyes and he couldn't spare a few for his darling cousins? Shameful.
Dragon Horse is best Sigil and I will die on this hill.
More specifically and seriously, on the topic of Alicent...are we expecting her not to want kids of her own? I know we don't want her going far but expecting her to be only ours seems extremely selfish. Are we planning to get whoever she marries a place at court or work with her to find someone already at court she approves of? She'll likely want her own children to have something to inherit so a Lord is what she'll most likely want which will again raise the issue of separation. She was raised by a second son and has a brother that stands to inherit nothing so she's likely thought on this.
Feel like this is something we should plan out with her, preferably before we commit to anyone...
The Hightowers were kings for longer than the existence of house Targaryen. Longer even than the Freehold. We may be dragonroders and Kings now but our Dynasty has only lasted a century, compared to kings of Westeros who ruled for thousands of years unbroken before Aegon, it's a paltry sum of time.
While the Hightower weren't kings for relatively long (I think you got them mixed up with the Gardeners) the are indeed old. WOIAF implys that they predate the coming of the First Men.
Last time we talked about marriage, she dreaded it. Maybe her views will change with time, maybe they won't, either way I intend to give her the freedom of choice rather than choose for her.
Eeeeh, I don't think a potential love match should be discounted completely even if it doesn't lead to love. It can just be that they actually get along instead of force themselves to be around each other out of duty's sake.
That... doesn't require the husband to be someone who can have a romantic relationship with Rhaenyra. You might notice that Laenor, extremely Not An Option gay guy, canonically got along with Rhaenyra just fine. As a friend.
Eeeeh, I don't think a potential love match should be discounted completely even if it doesn't lead to love. It can just be that they actually get along instead of force themselves to be around each other out of duty's sake. That does bring something up that I'll leave separate from this since I know this to be total longshot for fun.
Hey if it serves as any consolation the main reason why this idea that marrying one of the possible romance partners would be a problem with Alicent is being debated is because we are bored waiting until we get more info on the marriage options... Because until we have the chance to talk with them (and Alicent) in these coming turn all of this is baseless speculation
I would very much prefer to marry one of the possible romance partners and I am sure plenty of voters would like to do so as well.
That... doesn't require the husband to be someone who can have a romantic relationship with Rhaenyra. You might notice that Laenor, extremely Not An Option gay guy, canonically got along with Rhaenyra just fine. As a friend.
This touch a really important point. I wanted to emphasis this in our husband. He need to hold us in so high esteem that it become sovereignty.
Whoever we choose they need to respect us and can give and hold absolute trust between us. They need to be our partner in truth, united in purpose. For Rhaenyra husband will be a greatly idiosyncratic, powerful, and dangerous position. If they have a single inkling of ambition over us they can easily subvert our control either of the family or the state. We should not fear his design over our children, our family, or our authority because ideally our cause is One. To maintain our sovereignty we should be able to personally rely on our husband without any risk. This may seems a modern ideal marriage criteria, in truth it is the bare minimum else we invite a snake into our bed.
This is another point for Romance as having a romantic partner is one of the few ways we can get this true partner. Laenor dangerous mutual secret and mutual freedom is another way especially with his lack of personal ambition. This is why I don't really prefer Gwayne. We don't held any leverage over him and he held some personal ambition himself as a "king-consort". Will he able to be united in purpose with us? Or just an ally with occasional shared goal because of personal and familial ambition. We can see canon example Daemon trying to subvert Rhaenyra power for him self until Alys drugged him. This is a clear possible danger for our reign from someone so close.
Winter of Widows, an SI-fanfic in the post-Dance era, put this criteria and the conundrum surrounding its necessity nicely.
"Many a man may smile and be a villain, especially if he thinks the rising wealth of my house will be his to claim and spend as he pleases. How long before he pushes for children I cannot safely bear, as is his right? How long before I fall from my horse in a freak accident like Rhea Royce?"
I bared my teeth, I couldn't help it, and snapped, "I need a husband who will listen to me. Who will seek my council and give his own freely. I need a partner true – I'll not risk dying in the birthing bed for anything less."
At this, she froze, a slice of cheese half-way to her mouth. Lady Tully licked her suddenly dry lips and said, "Rarer than hen's teeth is the man you describe, Lady Mires. Are you sure you wouldn't rather Florian reborn?"
"I need a man of character or no man at all, my lady." My tone had hardened like granite. On this I would not budge.
"You couch it in wisdom, but your desires are not so well hidden as you believe, girl. You do seek a man out of songs. Some great love affair, where he might hold you in so high esteem that it is almost like sovereignty. Would you feel the same way if I found you a cripple or a pauper?" Lady Tully said, her voice harsh. The woman's eyes glittered with some unknown feeling as she stared down at me, her fists clenched tight in her skirts. She relaxed them instantly once she saw me looking, but I had brushed up against something important.
I remembered my father. My first father. Huge as a bear in my mind's eye. As all fathers are to their children. I remembered how he'd never raised his voice at my mother. My first mother. I remembered his hands, curled like a question mark around her ankle, when she rested her feet in his lap at the end of the day. The way he smiled when she was in the room. Not at her, she wasn't doing anything. But that was just what his face did when she was around.
He had always bragged about how smart she was. How quick, and sharp and funny. When she was tired, he'd smooth his hands over her head, soft as rain. I remembered falling asleep to the sound as a child.
These things were lost to me now. I would say my vows to the right man and spend the rest of my life at war for control in my own house if I had to. I would be a river to my people. But I'd be damned if I did it for anything less than the meager scraps for which I had asked.
Also, I recommend Winter of Widows to all. It is a great fanfic and already completed.
I would not mind a romantic partner at all, but only if this works out for Alicent. And besides, a man having feelings for a woman does NOT guarantee he'll treat her well and respect her deeply. At all.
Uh, Alicent? You know, the woman whose life we can easily ruin, who also happens to be his sister, and for whom he already called us out way back when he thought we were mistreating her? And his ambition had the vibe of "well yes, I am aiming at a position of extreme power and I appreciate what that means, but my main goal is to protect Alicent". He's not aiming to be King-Consort for the sake of ruling through us. He KNOWS we would never accept that, it's part of the whole Defiant package that makes him worry about Alicent's safety next to us!
A man who has no ambition whatsoever is either a unicorn or a liar. And a man whose thoughts do not acknowledge ambition is dangerous to have with us while swimming in a sea full of sharks.
I would not mind a romantic partner at all, but only if this works out for Alicent. And besides, a man having feelings for a woman does NOT guarantee he'll treat her well and respect her deeply. At all.
I don't said it is a guarantee just a few ways we can. Something to be worked with to be achieved. I focused on the importance of true partner. Someone that can be honest, work together, and respect each other. With the mentioned example is Laenor Velaryon, Rhaenyra's canon beard. And Daemon as one of the example of the danger not finding true partner. Daemon that have explicit feeling for Rhaenyra. True partner is only the bare minimum after all.
In my view with Defiant Princess Knight Rhaenyra those who are Obvious Romance candidate and expressed interest is already those who are more open to less conventional "Wife." It means less conventional expectation or view of women in Westeros rigidly patriarchal world. It is higher chance of people that respect Rhaenyra for being herself. The rigid cultural system of Westeros help self select out most of those that explicitly won't respect Rhaenyra as an intimate partner that is true to herself.
The work is ensuring whether they can work together or not. Whether they align in other expectation we have in a partner and other view like acceptance of Alicent. Romance only open some doors, not ensuring the success of relationship. Respect is still the bare minimum. Viserys exist and I wonder when Rhaenyra would found out if ever what he did.
Alicent is not a leverage in my view. Her continued well-being is a common goal between us and Gwayne. What I fear from Gwayne is he won't put Rhaenyra's other goal beside Alicent as his. United in purpose is the focus for my wariness of him. That if Rhaenyra goal clash against Otto's, he will support Otto as an example.
My view is Rhaenyra husband should be one less front we should battle on for power. He should be on our side whether come hail or flood. Or his parents.
Actually, what are Otto's goals? I'm asking because I actually don't know. Is he really going to try to outright control us? Can we clear the air with him on why we act the way we do, so he's not blindsided by Rhaenyra reaching towards her Dreams? (I feel like Knighthood was the boldest and most deviant one compared to the rest (except for being unwilling to give up on Alicent, but that's already the basis for why we might want to work with him), so he might be reassured that she's not likely to pull something of that magnitude again).
Rhaenyra's most ambitious goal atm is actually to become Queen, which he'd be happy to support if it puts his grandchild on the throne eventually...
If you believe the myths of Garth the Gardener and his sons and son-in-laws, yes. Since that was before the Long Night, and the Valyrian Freehold only arose after the Long Night (one of the few global chronology yardsticks we can use). But that is all just legends and really, it's odd that you have entire civilizations, Phoenicia/Mesopotamia analogues like Ghis, rise and fall, the Yitish legendary semi-divine Emperors set in t hat time... but in the Reach it's supposedly the same Houses as today still.
But okay, we have no evidence to the contrary. But even if you do believe it, they haven't been Kings in thousands of years, either. By the time the Rhoynar arrived a thousand years ago (well, about 800 at the time of the quest), the Seven Kingdoms were already well established. It is said they began to rise, replacing the Hundred Kingdoms, about 3,000 years ago, so about 1,000 years after the Andal Invasion in the slightly less insane chronology version. So if you want to go on about the really long times - the Hightowers have not been kings in a time span longer than the foundation of the city of Rome to today.
And if we are counting which of the lordly families once were royal 3,000 years ago... well that's about half of them. The Baneforts and the Plumms, the Tarths and the Peakes, the Brackens and the Blackwoods, they all were kings once. 3,000 years ago or more. It means nothing. Maybe the Lannisters, Arryns and Starks could gripe about having been royal once. It has only been a bit more than a century for them, after all. But everyone else?
Now they are all just lords, and vassals of our vassals. Nothing more. Now we do stand above them in rank and dignity and even ancestry, stressing our Valyrian roots. They aren't even Lords Paramount. The Hightowers absolutely cannot match our family name. Much less the son of a second son of the Hightower line.
While the Hightower weren't kings for relatively long (I think you got them mixed up with the Gardeners) the are indeed old. WOIAF implys that they predate the coming of the First Men.
The Hightower, as in the building, or at least its foundations, predates the arrival of the First Men. House Hightower claims descend from a daughter of Garth the Gardener. And they would have been kings for literal millennia, due to the insane time spans in ASOIAF history. They do predate the Long Night, which was about 6,000 years ago in the less insane chronology. So that means they would have been kings for at least 3,000 years. But also not have been kings for 3,000 years since.
As I recall, Otto Hightower had two reasons for opposing Rhaenyra in canon. One, as a Hightower who did not inherit Oldtown, wanted his descendants to prosper, and there is hardly a better guarantee for that than that they inherit the Iron Throne. The other was that he feared the flightiness of Daemon and the original Rhaenyra, believing that they would continue Maegor's legacy and bring much grief to Westeros. That's why he hates Daemon so much.
That being said, Rhaenyra has already done the craziest thing she's ever done, so we shouldn't have much of a problem there unless we try to push Otto away on purpose. Sure, there may still be disagreements about what is the best choice for Westeros in any given situation, but that's unlikely to be a major disagreement as long as Rhaenyra takes her responsibilities seriously.
That probably means that Corlys will straight up refuse the match, since it's a hard sell and he's a prideful, arrogant, power-hungry man. With Harwin, seems doable if not easy; with Qoren, uuuhhhh, considering that the negotiations would impact the wholeass diplomatic relations between the Iron Throne and Dorne, I actually think it might be a good idea to budge on that if we go for him? And with Gwayne, ez of course.
With Qoren it would become extra-important for exactly that reason, though. So that the House of the united realm is indeed Targaryen. As I have said, an adoption of the canon Dornish solution maybe: We move to Sunspear to be Princess Consort there, but he named a sibling (hopefully he has siblings) an heir, and once Viserys dies he abdicates in favour of that sibling and becomes our King-consort in KL. So our line will be Targaryen and inheriting the 7K, and the sibling line would be Martell and inheriting Dorne.
If that isn't possible or if it is disagreeable to Qoren, which is fair, well, then it would speak against the match.
As for Corlys we can at least suggest the inverse of the canon agreement, but yeah, I don't think he'd go for it.
OTOH, I am not so sure about your solution. If we are dependent on the good will of our husband, we are in fact still dependent on our husband. Your wider point is entirely correct. The risk we are running is that we'll have a husband who runs the realm "ius uxoris", with him being the King, instead of us being the Queen Regnant. But the solution to that has to be that we need to have the levers of power, rather than to appeal to personal qualities and the goodwill of the husband. And Gwayne is not bad in that regard. He belongs to an important noble house, so he has contacts, but at least he has no personal powerbase from which to over-rule us.
Incorrect. They're basically the only major Reach house that doesn't claim to have been founded by one of Garth's children. It's been a week or so since I last read (well listened) to WOIAF but when the Hightowers are first mentioned in the historical record they're already Kings of Oldtown and asking for the hand of one of Garth's daughters.
I wonder that reaction Viserys will have towards Rhaenyra telling him of the Dragon Dream, I dont think he will dismiss her after all Viserys himself heard Haelena name from a dream.
We don't know his goal. It's part of the problem. He'd like to manipulate his boss. The most likely current goal probably is serving Gwayne on a silver platter to put his Grandson on the throne. Gwayne is probably sent to us like Alicent is sent to Viserys. Seeing long term ambition of average Reacher house, if we empower Hightower too much they may even coup Tyrell to become Lord Paramount, and force us as fait accompli. Putting one of the most powerful Greenhand descendant over the Reach, greatly empowering the Reach as a power block.
Gwayne problem is Otto and Viserys problem. If we play too close to Otto tune without balancing our hand we would just become Viserys that is playing on his Hand's hand. We should play our current politic as a seed for our future reign. What we want to accomplish, who we would like as hand, and who we'd like to empower. Who to have in our council, court, and city and their effect on the realm. What balance of power we want to maintain. If we wanted to marry Gwayne and/or ally Otto we should be able to check Otto and the Hightower power to maintain a favorable balance. I see Otto and the Hightower currently as a salesman pulling a fast one over us with easy solution with long term problem for us.
Ideally I want Rhaenys as Hand in our reign to stop our vassal who want alternative (Man) authority to go over our head or right now even to acclimatize woman authority figure. As Rhaenys is the more reasonable Velaryon a reconciliation without marriage may be possible. With her as Our elder cousin we will able to be candid especially in regard to our Family matter. She may probably die before us leaving an opening for our heir to become Hand before their reign. Otto shiftiness probably suit Master of Whisper more rather than Hand. His pride will be wounded but he'd like the power still.
A man who has no ambition whatsoever is either a unicorn or a liar. And a man whose thoughts do not acknowledge ambition is dangerous to have with us while swimming in a sea full of sharks.
Not pushing no Ambition candidate though that is nice to have. What I am pushing is No Ambition over us. If he have higher ambition it should be joint goal that we agree on and can work together as partner. A lateral or lower ambition is fine.
It is not solution it is bare minimum to prevent long term problem. When we rise as Queen many will look for more palatable (Man) authority. Husband/consort unfortunately is still needed to have legitimate heir and in the process become a perfectly positioned palatable (Man) authority. By the nature of patriarchy it must be personally fight against or the power encroachment will become de facto.
The problem with just lever of power (It is nice to have) is it can only react with hard measure or the threat of it like boycott, forced vacation, tightening his purse, or limited freedom. Therefore another battlefield that don't engender goodwill because he don't respect or honest with us that don't have end except when ones side is thoroughly defeated. This time our enemy is in our bed and father to our children. We are Defiant Crown Princess Knight. We will almost always have more lever of power including threat of personal physical violence. But that is not family that I wanted for our children and heir, where antagonistic balance of power is the one that ensure the peace. My view is Rhaenyra husband should be one less front we should have to battle. We should not accept antagonistic candidate but a true partner candidate.
He must be pro-us. We need to have a personal leverage where it opened up an equitable relationship to be possible, so they reject ius uxoris and soft power or turn it to us. The leverage can be affection or a mutual personal benefit like w/ Laenor in canon. It need to be personal because if not we return to hard limit therefore the battlefield. It is once again where I extol the virtue of Gay4Lesbian marriage with Laenor.
I don't prefer Gwayne as with our currently available information he seems to be an Otto honeypot for us. If Gwayne only bring himself without Otto to our marriage bed and will side with us over Otto and the Hightower in general he is acceptable.
He said he wasn't and that proposing was his own idea and not his father's, and I'm inclined to believe at least that he believes that because if we know one thing about Gwayne it's that he takes his word seriously. Otto might still be manipulating Gwayne unbeknownst to the latter, but that's something rather different than his being in on his father's plot.
He said he wasn't and that proposing was his own idea and not his father's, and I'm inclined to believe at least that he believes that because if we know one thing about Gwayne it's that he takes his word seriously. Otto might still be manipulating Gwayne unbeknownst to the latter, but that's something rather different than his being in on his father's plot.
Thanks, I miss that on the update. Gwayne just risen in my preferability ranking. Now it is just checking Otto influence something we must do for any candidate's in-law or possible ally.
That's a nice ideal, but where could we find it in reality?
Laenor brings the Sea Snake, who would attempt to control us no matter what his son thinks.
Harwin would be the target of Larys's plots, regardless of his own feelings for us.
Qoren has to think about the good of his own kingdom first and foremost, and I can't imagine anyone putting that below us.
Gwayne brings Otto's attention, and while Otto does have Opinions, they're significantly easier to square with our own than any of the above.
Do you want to being someone out of the left field? Someone who gives us as much value as the above options to be worth marrying at all in the first place, yet somehow would place us above all the other connections in their life AND not bring the kind of connections that would attempt to strangle us regardless? Realistically, the perfect option like this doesn't exist. We have to diplomacy, no matter what, and we have to weigh usefulness vs leverage vs goals vs friends and enemies they'd bring, etc.
Firstly I wanted to put forward that we are neglecting Rhaenys potential as power player and leverage in our calculation and together with Rhaenys sensibilities we can leverage against Sea Snake excess. Rhaenys is the most senior of our House member and dragonrider. She is probably the most candid and aligned with us between all the power player around us. We should when we have time talk with Rhaenys or even learn something.
That's a nice ideal, but where could we find it in reality?
Laenor brings the Sea Snake, who would attempt to control us no matter what his son thinks.
Harwin would be the target of Larys's plots, regardless of his own feelings for us.
Qoren has to think about the good of his own kingdom first and foremost, and I can't imagine anyone putting that below us.
Gwayne brings Otto's attention, and while Otto does have Opinions, they're significantly easier to square with our own than any of the above.
Do you want to being someone out of the left field? Someone who gives us as much value as the above options to be worth marrying at all in the first place, yet somehow would place us above all the other connections in their life AND not bring the kind of connections that would attempt to strangle us regardless? Realistically, the perfect option like this doesn't exist. We have to diplomacy, no matter what, and we have to weigh usefulness vs leverage vs goals vs friends and enemies they'd bring, etc.
Pro-Us as in he and rhaenyra together as a collective not Rhaenyra-us. He personally has to able to accept a collective purpose as a marriage couple and mutual respect. What I called a true partner as my bare minimum.
I am not asking for star crossed happily ever after or a submissive yes man. I am asking for bare minimum of able to counsel and be counseled back by Rhaenyra, those who respect and are honest with Rhaenyra, and able to compromise a colective purpose as marriage couple. Those who are able to become true partner in our marriage.
Those who are both candid and listen to us. It is the different beyween marrying Gwayne and marrying Otto. Or marrying Laenor vs Corlys. Or marrying Tyland vs Jason. Or Qoren vs Unwin. The former are less ambitious, more open, and importantly more personally able to compromise with us to create a collective purpose rather than the later.
Like lets put my bare minimum with comparison using twin candidate that both are not romance obvious.
Tyland vs Jason.
Tyland
-Is not arrogant
-Principled (able to withstand torture and commited to peace after)
-Open to unconvetional (His wild adventure to get fleet)
-Able to compromise (His acceptance and commitment to Aegon III his torturer's son)
-Is not Lord of the Westerland so able to put the collective us above it.
Jason
-Arrogant
-Bring westerland army directly to us
-Expect conventional "Lady Wife"
-Hard to personally compromise with us
-Lord of the Westerland
Jason even though he bring westerland army and gold does not clear my bare minimum while Tyland is acceptable. My bare minimum of true partner is a coalesence of what I feel why Borros and Jason are barely suitable as candidate and Unwin is clearly not acceptable while all are powerful player.
"At the tourney, there was a moment there where I considered not revealing myself," you admitted as Alicent stared at you with those big brown eyes.
"Why would you do that?" a look of confusion appeared across her pretty face. "That tourney is the main reason you were able to become a knight."
"I know, but there was the tourney in Highgarden ahead of us, and in that moment all I could see was you. All I heard was your laughter," you voice was soft and sweet. "In that moment, I was almost overwhelmed. I wanted to compose a hundred poems in your honor or a dozen sonnets, but most of all I wanted to sweep you off your feet."
Alicent turned new shades of red yet unseen as she stared at you.
"I wanted to sweep you out of your seat and onto my horse," the words flowed out of your lips almost beyond your control. "I wanted to ride out White Harbor with you at my back. I wanted us to ride and ride until we could find somewhere nice and quiet, where it could just be the two of us. I wanted-"
You never got the chance to finish as Alicent grabbed you by the face and kissed you. Deeply, passionately, with all the feverish energy she had the first time she kissed you the first time, but none of the shame.
Seconds felt like hours as Alicent held you there, holding the kiss for as long as she dared. When she finally let go the two stared at each other in quite disbelief over her action, neither of you having expected her boldness.
Without thinking you pulled her into another kiss. Alicent's kiss had sparked a fire in you and now you were determined to let the heat consume you both. Your lady deserved to be ravished with kisses. She deserved more than just a dragon's affection. She deserved it's passion.
Alicent's hands ran through your hair as you left a trail of kisses up and down her neck before returning to those wondrous lips of hers. Soon she was climbing into your lap as your hands gripped at her dress, your instincts torn between holding her close and wanting to rip off her clothes right then and there.
Each kiss was a passionate, hungry affair, the two of you barely pausing to take breaths. You didn't want to be a part from her for even a moment. You wanted to feel her hot breath wash over you. You wanted her hands on you. You wanted all of her. You wanted-
Your passion was brought to a sudden end as the chair, which had been leaning dangerously backwards ever since Alicent climbed into your lap, fell backwards, crashing onto a nearby rug.
Alicent stared at you with big wide eyes as her hands clung tightly to you. The moment, as passionate and wonderful as it was, had ended. You considered kissing her again, but to your surprise a sharp burst of laughter escape your lips instead. Earning a giggling fit from Alicent. It was an honest, unrestrained laugh, one you rarely heard from her.
"I guess being a knight has more advantages then I realized," you mused as you lay there, unsure if standing up was the best idea right now.
"Only if they're knights as passionate as you, my dear," Alicent replied as she wrapped her arms around you, deciding she very much wanted to lay here for the moment.
"I've never done that before," a hint of shock in her voice as she went on. "Never even considered such a thing."
"Well, I must say you're quite skilled for a novice," you smirked. Alicent's kisses were passionate and barely restrained. Like she was starving woman and you were the only food she had seen in a month. It cut quite the contrast with her normal self.
Alicent smiled at you, her expression broad and genuine.
"I'm glad you didn't sweep me off my feet that day," she said as she stroked your hair, "but I know I would enjoyed the experience a great deal. Having a dashing knight sweep me off my feet, the two of us spending the rest of the day alone, finding some tree in an empty field for us to spend the hours together. It would have been magical."
"I'd say this has been rather great as well," you said with a smile, earning a nod from your fair maiden.
"I can't believe I spend so long ashamed of my feelings for you," Alicent said as she pulled herself up. "It seems so absurd now. Every moment I spend with you has given my life more passion and meaning than I ever dared dream. And it's not like anything we're doing is wrong."
"We're harming no one," you assured her. "And no vows have been broken."
"All my life I thought I had to put my own needs and wants to the side for the sake of duty. Duty to my father, to our family, to what's expected of ladies of my standing," Alicent mused. "I thought duty and sacrifice were my burden in life and one that would not ease up until I was a woman grown. You showed me how wrong I was."
"Not to sound like some lust-stricken boy," you said, "but we're doing this again, right? Not right now of course, but I think we both rather enjoyed that."
You adored giving this lovely maiden kisses on the hand and wooing her with poetry and music, but having glimpsed Alicent's passion, now free of the conflict that marked the beginning of your relationship, you wanted more. Much more.
"Oh yes, of course," Alicent said firmly before her expression suddenly grew rather bashful. "And while I very much want to keep having my fair knight regale me with music and poems of their affection, I was hoping in the future we might do something more intimate."
"Oh," your eyes went wide in surprise.
"Not that," Alicent said firmly. "Not yet. But I want us to have more than just a few stolen moments like this. I want time together not just as handmaiden and princess but as us."
Part of you was annoyed at the fact you had to hide this at all. It felt so absurd. So many lords paraded around their mistresses and bastards like it was nothing, and what Alicent and you were doing was far less sinful than anything like that. But it was a frustration you would have to bear for now.
Your first thought was to take Alicent hawking. It would be simple enough. You'd need an escort of course, but you very much doubted Ser Raylon would care and he'd give you privacy if you asked. It would give you a few hours, maybe even a day or so away from the Red Keep and by yourselves. There was the issue that Alicent had never shown interesting hawking before. It was perfectly reasonable for a woman of her station, but it wasn't something she had interest in. You could pass it off as simply teaching her, but there was still a risk of suspicion.
You could also just spend a longer time in the Godswood, just the two of you, serenading her with music and poems. You had a decent idea of when the place was relatively empty and it wouldn't take too much effort to find a nice private spot, but there was some risk of being caught in the act. Most who found you wouldn't suspect anything amiss, and the few who did would have the sense to keep it a secret, unless it was Johanna. Your biggest issue was if that was enough. It was really just more intimate version of what you'd already been doing, and while great, you weren't sure if either of you would be content with just that.
Next, you could take Alicent out into the city for the night. You probably could pass for a boy with only a small amount of effort, pretending the two of you were just smallfolk lovers enjoying a night on the town. That gave the two of you a whole city to do with as you wished, well away from any prying eyes. Of course, the big issue was sneaking out of the castle in the first place. You knew the Red Keep had hidden passages and such, but you didn't know much about them. And there was a chance Alicent could refuse. She had grown bolder, but this was quite daring even for you.
Finally, you could sail to Dragonstone for a few weeks, make some excuse about wanting to better know your domain or something, and make your way there with Alicent. Dragonstone was sparsely populated and even the castle itself was relatively empty. It would be trivial to escape prying eyes there and do what you wish, but you would need a good reason for why you sailed to Dragonstone and didn't fly there on your own. Your father wouldn't care either way, but a poor excuse might raise questions with others.
Relationship with Alicent Improved
New Status: Getting Serious
Alicent is Growing Bolder
What do you want to do with Alicent? (Unlocks Action Next Turn)
[] [Alicent] Take Her Hawking
[] [Alicent] Spend Time in the Godswood
[] [Alicent] A Night On the Town (Alicent May refuse. If she does, next most voted for option will be taken instead.)
[] [Alicent] A Trip To Dragonstone
[] [Alicent] Write-in (Subject to QM Approval)
You ended up picking the harp. The lute was quite fun for sure, but the harp was the kind of instrument princes and kings played. The kind of instrument that would make more people see you as the dashing knightly princess you were. A fierce warrior with a romantic heart. In addition, the music was quite soothing and while you wouldn't call memorizing notes and learning music a fully relaxing affair, you couldn't deny it took your mind off more stressful matters.
Of course, you never did anything by half-measures, not even hobbies. You would practice near daily with your harp, often spending four or five hours with your instructor several times a week. Within a few months you had gone from a complete novice at the harp to actually halfway decent. Your instructor said you had made decent progress, but still had quite a ways to go, though they also noted with a fair amount of effort you could become quite the musical talent. The kind of musician who could stir emotions in the coldest noble with just a few plucks of the string.
Alicent very much enjoyed your playing, with her often finding the time to relax nearby in the gardens as you practiced. Seeing her smile as you played made it all worth it.
-2 Stress
Harp Practice Unlocked (Needs to Be Taken Every 4 Turns or risk Stress Gain)
You spoke to Steffon Redfort not long after you were made a knight. Ser Tarly had advised against it, saying proper interviews would take up too much of your time and you should just approve him out of hand. You refused, if you made him a captain in the City Watch without even seeing what his merits were first, it would be clear to all that you had given him the position purely because he was an ally of your cousin Jeyne. And while others might be fine with it, you weren't gonna let it slide this time.
Given what Rhea Royce and Ser Tarly told you of the man, he did concern you a bit. Both painted a picture of a man who was honorable, loyal, and kind, but also distinctly lacking in wits and sense.
You interviewed several times over the course of a couple of weeks. And your assessment of him fit what you heard.
Your first encounter with him was after he had pricked himself on the Iron Throne, apparently convinced the swords were fake. He then expressed bewilderment for why your ancestor had even made the throne in the first place. The explanation of Aegon's desire to ensure no king sat on their throne easy did little to appease him. The rest of the conversation that followed was a bit strange as well, while he praised you for becoming a knight he also seemed distinctly under the idea that Targaryen women becoming knights was not a new concept, much to your bewilderment. Apparently he was under the impression that fighting on dragonback was a lot like fighting on horseback, just with flying added to the mix.
Even more confusingly, he knew of his half-sister's preference for women, and while your were glad to see he seemed to take no issue with that, you were quite bewildered to see him in the very next breath declare that your cousin Jeyne could not possibly like girls and he hoped his half-sister would stop "uselessly pining after her," and find a lady who returned her interests.
Follow up interviews with him did at least assure you he would be basically competent at the task of commanding. In his eyes, patrolling the streets of King's Landing was little different from patrolling a valley or mountain pass in the Vale, murderers and rapists being little different from the more vicious mountain clans of the Vale. A comparison your definitely did not agree with, but it was at least a functional mindset. The idea that his position could carry risks of conflicting loyalty or risks of corruption seemed to offend him to his core. To him, the duty of a captain in the city watch was clear. To protect the people and serve the king, and the pay was more than enough to live comfortably. That anyone in the position would think they were owed more seemed an insult to the man. He vowed that, if made a captain, he would work to ensure the common armsmen were taught a similar mindset.
You had no doubt he would be an ally if you made him a captain in the city watch, but part of you couldn't help but wonder if he was actually suited for the more complex aspects of the job like corruption and Daemon's lingering influence. Perhaps there was a better place for him, such as in the palace guard or something.
Do You Push for Steffon RedFort to be made a City Watch Captain?
[] [Steffon] Put His Name Forward
[] [Steffon] Urge Him to Seek Some Other Role in King's Landing
The desk before you was covered in letters, scrolls, and bits of parchment containing your own personal notes. You sighed wearily at the sight of it all. You'd been starring at the pile for hours now and you'd spent several days on this. This small sea of parchment contained the beginnings of what was unmistakably one of the most important decisions of your life, one that would likely heavily shape your remaining years as heir and future rulership. The decision of who you would one day marry.
It was not a decision you wanted to make. Ideally you'd wait a decade or so before marrying, but your knighthood had come at a cost. And there was definitely an advantage in gaining a firm ally sooner rather than later.
You still did not want to get married soon, and ideally you wanted to marry someone you loved, but at the rate things were going the only way that could happen is if you found a husband who could love you and Alicent equally, and who Alicent would love in turn, or you found a way to marry Alicent.
You were so grateful you had her right now. She made the prospect of a political marriage so much easier to bear.
You picked up a letter on the desk, the broken bits of wax containing remnants of a sigil, a blazing sun with a spear through it. The sigil of House Nymeros Martell. A Letter from the Prince of Dorne himself to your father. At your request, your father had turned over their correspondence. Normally the idea of even marrying into the house that defied your ancestors and killed one of their dragons was offensive. But the prospect of marrying the Prince himself, to say nothing of the fact it was your tourney performance that sparked his interest, peeked your curiosity.
You read the letter again.
To My Brother on the Iron Throne, King Viserys of House Targaryen.
I know it is most unusual for the Prince of Rhoynar to write to the Valyrian King of the Andals and First Men, but I believe you a most unusual men. A King who understands that a truly strong leader rules through peace and diplomacy instead of blood and steel, and one who understand that the wisdom to rule is not limited to men alone.
I must confess I find tales of your daughter fascinating. To see a woman so skilled in combat be able to display her prowess so freely is a rare sight outside of Dorne. I care little for warfare but the gallantry of knighthood and jousts holds my interests as firmly as any other man. And if the accounts of White Harbor are to be believed, she has shown herself to be a warrior of such skill that there are few even in Dorne who could hope to match her. If nothing else, I wish to one day meet your remarkable heiress.
Now on to more ugly matters. My vassals push me to join the war in the Stepstones. They argue that your brother risks disrupting our trade with his war in the islands. They say if we do not act soon, that we will have trade brought to ruin by either your brother or the Three Daughters. It has been the experience of my house and many others that war with dragons can be endured, but it will create many tragedies, and I do not want another generation to bear such hardships. To my east, I see a rising empire who's rulership is unstable and who's hungry for land and power. To my north, I see a wise king who has ruled well for over a decade and who I believe shares my desires for peace. I also see a unique chance before us.
I am unmarried and have ascended to the throne much earlier than I would have liked. Your heir is a woman unmarried, and while I know many in your realm may find her disagreeable, I can assure you that Dorne would welcome eagerly a warrior such as fair Rhaenyra.
Make no mistake, I do not seek to submit Dorne before the Iron Throne like the Lannisters have, but I do see a way for the two of us to accomplish something none of our ancestors dreamed possible, a way for the conflict between our two realms to end in a way where we both win. Where Dorne has it's economic interests ensured and rights protected, and where the Iron Throne could at last truly claim rightfully to rule over the Rhyonar.
Please write me back if you wish to discuss my proposal in greater detail. And may we one day speak in person as friends.
Prince Qoren Nymeros Martell, Prince of Dorne and Lord of Sunspear
The idea was tempting and terrifying at the same time. For starters, you were no fool. You knew well that marrying the Prince of Dorne would make you a number of enemies, particularly in the Dornish Marches. Even your own sworn shield would have to be appeased if you did this. It was a politically risky marriage, but one that could strengthen your position immensely in time once Dorne joined the fold. You and your father could be hailed as the ones who finally completed Aegon's Conquest. And it wasn't just Dorne you stood to gain. With Dorne joining the fold, it would be rather simple to secure Daemon's conquests in the Stepstones. Depending on how you viewed it, by marrying one man you could add two kingdoms to the Iron Throne.
On a personal level, you had to admit that just how respectfully Qoren spoke of your prowess had you quite tempted by the marriage offer. And if there was any man out there who would be understanding of your relationship with Alicent, it would be Dornishmen. Tales about of their unusual customs and tolerances we well known in the Seven Kingdoms.
Of course, if you married the ruling Prince of Dorne, there would be a great deal to negotiate. Dorne would not join easily. They'd want quite favorable terms. Terms the other kingdoms might resent. And if you pushed back against Dorne too hard, they could easily walk away. Not to mention marrying the ruler of Dorne came with a host of it's own complications. One of your kids would one day inherit the Iron Throne while the other inherited Sunspear. Who would get what, what name would they carry and would they be allowed to claim a dragon? This marriage would be quite complicated to arrange if nothing else.
You looked through your notes again to see what your had written about Harwin Strong. Ser Breakbones had not sent a letter to your father, but had spoken to him directly. Your father said he was kind, spoke highly of your skill with the blade and how impressed he was with you from your visit to Harrenhal. Which surprised you somewhat considering the gap you had between meeting Alys and your duel with Harwin.
On a personal level, you couldn't deny that Ser Harwin Strong was compelling. He was tall, had thick curly hair and muscles even you could envy. You had this romantic notion for years of what your marriage could be like, somehow combining your desire to be a knight, love and marriage all into one. An image of two knights standing together as wife and husband, romantic partners and equals. And perhaps no man presented a better chance of that than Harwin. After all, he seemed to appreciate your strength as much as you did his. Of course there was one massive complication to all of that. Alicent.
You cared deeply for Alicent and if things kept going the way they were going, you could easily see the two of you being together for a long time if not the rest of your lives. You had no intention of putting her aside when you got married. The very idea offended you. You wanted a husband who could accept your relationship with her, one who could accept that and love you in turn would be wonderful. But your conversation with Gwayne lingered in your mind. Alicent's position was not secure and you knew there was every chance she would feel even more insecure if you had romantic feelings for your husband. You could easily see yourself loving both of them equally, but would Alicent be okay with that?
Politically, marrying Ser Harwin would secure the loyalty of his father, the Master of Laws, and one of your children would one day rule Harrenhal as well. But then again, you were already going to study under Lyonel, so his support was not really in much doubt.
Gwayne Hightower represented an interesting option. While he had been something of an ass in your last conversation, you knew pretty firmly where you stood with him and what a marriage would mean. You'd have a husband who knew full well about your relationship with Alicent and accepted it. It would never be a marriage of love, but it could be a marriage that made love possible. If the Hightowers position was secure in court, you never ran the risk of losing Alicent or having her married away against your wishes. And Gwayne was the son of a second son. You were certain any children you had would carry the Targaryen family name. And of course you'd secure the support of Gwayne and Alicent's father, Otto Hightower, Hand of the King. Unlike Lyonel, Otto's position on you seemed greatly in flux as of late. Securing his loyalty would be greatly aid your position in court. Of course, that would also mean dealing with Otto's influence in your marriage as well.
If nothing else, Gwayne seemed to care a great deal about his family. Even if your marriage would never be more than alliance and partnership, you could easily see him being a loving father to your kids.
Then there was Laenor Velyaron, heir to Driftmark and scion of the second most powerful house in the Seven Kingdoms. The benefits were obvious. Your husband would be a dragon rider, as would your mother and sister-in-law. Few could challenge you with that kind of power. And there were always rumors about Laenor, and how boys interested him the same way girls interested Jeyne Arryn. If that was true, he should have no problem with your relationship with Alicent. Though he could have issues with actually giving you an heir.
The drawbacks were just as obvious. Laenor's father Corlys was an ambitious man, and the two of you were not on the best of terms after he had tried to marry his daughter to your father. There was no telling if House Velyaron was even interested in such a match, and if they were, they held a strong hand when it came to negotiations, the strongest of any house. Many had warned you that the Sea Snake could prove an overpowering influence on your marriage if you married Ser Laenor. And as Ser Tarly pointed out, it's not as if they would automatically be your enemies if you didn't marry them.
There was no one option that was better than all of the others. The benefits of Dorne were just as numerous as it's drawbacks, the political and personal gains from marrying Gwayne balanced out well with the strength House Velayron could give you, just to name a few.
You needed to talk to someone to help narrow things down. Your father was a obvious choice. He no doubt had opinions on who you should marry. Otto and Lyonel might also have good advice to give on the matter though obviously their advice would come with bias, perhaps considerable bias considering Otto's past actions with your dear Alicent.
You could also talk to Rhaenys. Your cousin might be able to reign in the Sea Snake and make marrying her son Laenor more bearable. Of course, there was the question of if she was even interested in such a union at all.
Talking with Gwayne and Alicent could be very helpful. If nothing else it would ensure you knew where Alicent stood when it came to the idea of you marrying her brother. And you could sound out the other marriage options with Gwayne, see if there were alternatives that would appease his concerns.
You could also talk to Ser Harwin Strong himself, get a few for what kind of husband he might be.
Part of you was tempted to just write to Qoren Martell yourself. You couldn't invite him to King's Landing, but it would give you a chance to better know the man, see how he writes to you instead of your father. See if he's the kind of man who would be worth all the effort a Dornish marriage would involve.
Ideally you would speak or write to them all in time, the only question is who would you talk to First.
Who Do you Speak To? (Pick One)
[] [Marriage] Speak to Viserys
-[] Speak to Viserys and Otto together
[] [Marriage] Speak to Otto Hightower
[] [Marriage] Speak to Lyonel Strong
[] [Marriage] Speak with Ser Harwin Strong
[] [Marriage] Speak to Alicent and Gwayne Hightower
[] [Marriage] Speak with Rhaenys Targaryen
[] [Marriage] [Defiant] Write to Prince Qoren Martell
[] [Marriage] Write-in (Subject to QM Approval, Do not try to speak to everyone at once)
QM's Note: I had plans for talking with Steffon Redfort on the Royal Progress where he would come across as a man who was pure of heart, dumb of ass. But oddly I hit serious Writer's block writing him in King's Landing, so I ended up having to basically summarize, I apologize. Also, I must admit things with Alicent are quite well timed considering what Friday is in America.
We should bring a bit more of an entourage, then it's easy to explain why we use a boat. Take Gwayne and some Gold Cloaks along. Perhaps Isembardt to talk about a harbor extensions of Dragonstone to weaken Driftmarks hold on Narrow Sea trade.
[X] [Steffon] Put His Name Forward
He seems decent enough at the job and strikes me as the reliable sort.
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Viserys
Speak with dad. Seriously. This isn't our choice alone. We are heir, not queen. Speak with him and then decide on further moves.
Edit: Approval voting this since a bunch of people started directly going for marriage options instead.
[X] [Marriage] [Defiant] Write to Prince Qoren Martell
I honestly think that Hightower is the best and most logical choice. While others may have their benefits, his option is the one with practically no downsides. We wouldn't have to hide our relationship with his sister, we'd have an amicable if not pleasant relationship. He would be a decent dad imo and it's the option that benefits us and our loved ones the most.
Also, we are well served by powers from the "Fire" side of things, mostly our ability to bond with dragons, of course. I don't think we ever saw a person with both "Fire" and "Ice" powers. Arguably that would be the PWWP.
