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- Earth
Please quote where I said their family name would change? I said they'd be Targaryens, we'd just give them as middle names their father's house.
The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
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- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Ehhh. And if those "middles names" then get passed down the line, then that IS a family name. Hell, really, if everyone in the family gets that "middle name", then that IS a family name. That is just silly, really.
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So that's a you can't quote it then, right? Shall we drop this then as you've assigned a belief to me I never said?
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- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We do still want to sit on the Small Council, and time spent at Sunspear is time not spent apprenticing under Lyonel to take his place. It's time away from Aelora to let our heart hearden towards her. It's time away from Otto to let his heart hearden towards us. About the only characters we could count on taking with us would be Qoren, Alicent, and Raylon. Otherwise we'd be surrounded by strangers. Also, sand.
Finally, I don't think it's correct to cede the point without contest that the Prince of Dorne is superior in rank to heir to the Iron Throne. Especially if we make Dorne's subordination to the Iron Throne a condition of our marriage.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well, first of all, you didn't exactly make it clear. What you said was "but shall also hold the names Nymerios Martell" - and seeing as that IS a family name, the first assumption would be that this is to be a family name alongside Targaryen. So if this causes confusion, it is on you.
Second of all, if all members of the family bear that name, then this is in fact effectively a family name regardless of what you want to label it.
Third of all, "concession accepted" posts are very much frowned upon here.
Like the good news is that we have a dragon that can fly back and forth quickly.
Bad news is that I think we'd be expected to keep a personal guard with us.
Bad news is that I think we'd be expected to keep a personal guard with us.
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You could have requested a clarification then.
This is a more effective argument than any you've made thus far, to the extent where if you'd lead with it perhaps I'd have suggested just doing it for the heir / making sure the heir has some Dornish middle names. Because that was the point I was driving at - using names as a relatively low cost offering to the Dornish to butter them up.
That was not again the angle I was taking - I was taking the angle that this is pointless nitpicking especially given it wasn't based on what I actually said and not in my opinion that relevant to the quest or this discussion and was suggesting we both drop it. If you want to continue, I don't really to be frank
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
We would in fact only be the heir to the throne, while he is the Prince Regnant. We don't really have matters to attend to in KL as we don't rule there, while he has in Sunspear, because he rules there. If we were to keep a Lord Paramount in King's Landing, he would at least need to get a position here (see Jon Arryn or Renly Baratheon, for example). And as a ruling Prince he would stand in rank above Lords Paramount even.
Like, I accept what you and @Tomsawyer18 say, why we should be in KL. But there are also compelling reasons why he should be in Sunspear. As tom says, it is one problem the negotiations probably will have to solve. Though I guess giving Qoren a Small Council seat after the marriage and the oath of fealty would indeed be one solution for why the ruling Prince is in KL...
Likewise, you could simply have said "that is not how I meant it". Seeing as you put no qualifiers next to the proposal of us using a certain family name for our children, I really saw no need for clarification. I think taking it to mean that a family name should in fact be used as a family name is reasonable all in all.
But okay, to the meat of the matter:
But that is the thing. Names are not just names. Names are a matter of collective identity. It isn't just about us as an individual person, it is about House Targaryen - and that, ultimately, is expressed via family names. To me, this would absolutely not be low cost, but cut at our very identity.
Dorne can have autonomy, and the Martells can have the princely title, but they can have no part of the ruling House. That would be my position. I am ready to give them everything they ask for in regards to Dorne, in order to shut them out of everything in regards to the Iron Throne.
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The Current State of Rhaenyra, Alicent, and Qoren
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I didn't think it needed qualifiers until I saw how you were misunderstanding me. Given that you know I said all our children would be born into House Targaryen. Once I realised the misunderstanding I did clarify it.
Like we're going in circles here do you want to just drop this part? Now that I've clarified what I meant repeatedly and you've rudely dismissed my views on this a few times.
How would giving a child a Dornish middle name cut at our identify when our kid is about to be half dornish.
Like I'm not proposing we just give our kids purely Dornish names, I am proposing as the child of a Valyrian / Dornish match they should have a Dornish middle name of some sort as a sop to the people we're trying to absorb into our kingdom bloodlessly.
Except you know they're marrying into it, and if all goes to plan the eventual next heads of House Targaryen and Martell will be siblings. They're going to be involved no matter what for at least a generation. Given the in universe beliefs around blood and dragons and such we're likely going to be intermarrying with them for quite some time too.
You've also proposed we adopt their succession laws entirely so that's not even really the case anyway.
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Take His Hand (Begin Marriage Negotiations With Qoren Martell)
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- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Ah yeah, sorry, that one is entirely on me, rereading your last post. Well okay, that is fine. We could in fact even use important figures from Martell's history, like Mors or Nymeria or even Garin. Though I think the mists of Chroyane would turn into a tornado from Garin turning his grave if a Valyrian house adopted his name
Yea, I mean in the show Viserys started doing way better health wise after Maester Orwyle took over his treatment, and Viserys is not only our most powerful supporter and the person preventing a civil war from breaking out this instant, but he's also our father.
He is also rather meek and unlikely to allow us to do certain things while he's alive, so there is an argument to be made that him dying could be beneficial in certain ways, but the bad would massively outweigh the good.
So yea I think we should speak to Orwyle and soon so daddy dearest lives as long as possible.
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Imagine a hypothetical future where we have some descendant super into their Rhoynar heritage giving themselves some cringy arse name that would be hysterical.
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- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
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- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Still better than Kermit.
The real fun will be naming the child who inherits Dorne "Aegon"
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- Earth
Kermit Targaryen would have been the greatest knight of his generation atop his mighty dragon Big Bird
Or Rhaenys.
It'd be the funniest shit ever
Nymeria Targaryen, Heir of the Iron Throne
and then
Aegon Martell, Prince of Dorne
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- Earth
This idea alone has persuaded me to backing full on equal succession to the Iron Throne
Perfect. No notesIt'd be the funniest shit ever
Nymeria Targaryen, Heir of the Iron Throne
and then
Aegon Martell, Prince of Dorne
[X] Take His Hand (Begin Marriage Negotiations With Qoren Martell)
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You joke, but the only name we know without a doubt on Rhaenyra's future children names list is Visenya
Wolfman217
Oh No! Oh No! Oh No!
- Location
- England
Does Qoren have any siblings?
Succession is dead easy if he does - their kid get the Iron Throne, his sibling/nephew/niece gets Dorne. Then all of their kids are Targs and can get Dragons.
I think people are forgetting how big of a thing that is - the only non-Targs to EVER get Dragons are the Velaryons and that was ONLY because the woman who SHOULD have been Queen married their head AND they were ridiculously rich AND they are the most Valyrian after the Targ themselves.
Giving Martells dragons would just be a no go.
So either all the kids are Targs and so can get Dragons, or if one takes Martell name they don't get to - which is silly if Qoren has siblings, just have one of them or their kids be his heir.
Simple in some ways to begin with - they are some absolute base level requirements and if he can't agree to them, then there's no point.
- Rhae keeps the Targ name, not Martell-until-inheritance, not Targ-Martell, just ONLY Targ
- Dorne is absorbed into the 7 Kingdoms on same material conditions everyone else is (still using Prince/Princess as a title is one thing, but if they get long-term/permanent favoured treatment you're just begging for a civil war)
- Either all their kids are Targs - or only ONE is a Martell, and in that case they don't get a Dragon.
Absolutely should push equal primogeniture for the Iron Throne - sexism sucks, end of discussion.
Then their first kid should be a daughter called Visenya, and she should be heir and eventual Queen.
Succession is dead easy if he does - their kid get the Iron Throne, his sibling/nephew/niece gets Dorne. Then all of their kids are Targs and can get Dragons.
I think people are forgetting how big of a thing that is - the only non-Targs to EVER get Dragons are the Velaryons and that was ONLY because the woman who SHOULD have been Queen married their head AND they were ridiculously rich AND they are the most Valyrian after the Targ themselves.
Giving Martells dragons would just be a no go.
So either all the kids are Targs and so can get Dragons, or if one takes Martell name they don't get to - which is silly if Qoren has siblings, just have one of them or their kids be his heir.
Simple in some ways to begin with - they are some absolute base level requirements and if he can't agree to them, then there's no point.
- Rhae keeps the Targ name, not Martell-until-inheritance, not Targ-Martell, just ONLY Targ
- Dorne is absorbed into the 7 Kingdoms on same material conditions everyone else is (still using Prince/Princess as a title is one thing, but if they get long-term/permanent favoured treatment you're just begging for a civil war)
- Either all their kids are Targs - or only ONE is a Martell, and in that case they don't get a Dragon.
Absolutely should push equal primogeniture for the Iron Throne - sexism sucks, end of discussion.
Then their first kid should be a daughter called Visenya, and she should be heir and eventual Queen.
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