On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
I'm pretty skeptical about using the ocean as a source of anti magic.
I just don't see the connections, magic isn't washed away its grounded. It doesn't flow towards the ocean it blows around in the winds and I don't think it soaks into the oceans any faster than it does the earth. It doesn't seem to purify anything, and a lot of the worlds nastiest darkest gribbles come from there.
And it seems to be a pretty distant connection for a dwarf of this time period to draw from, when most of them probably think of the ocean as a suspiciously needlessly large lake.
As far as your combo goes it seems to be somewhat like AA but creating a hostile AOE of hot pressure for enemies to stand in? Unless the Pressure of Rune of Submersion is actually pushing enemies away. In which case I'm not really seeing the effect synergies rather than just being really good at breaking down and dispelling magic.
I still think that a better theme would be looking at the mountains that break magic and protect dwarves from it. However I'd have to look at my old suggestion and try and decide if its still up to date or if it can be improved by newer runes.
There are no spoilers here, everyone already knows what item won, that we are attempting to try and find a new combo along the same theme does not spoil if we failed to make the Storm Banner combo or if we are moving onto the 4th Item in a combo.
Personally if we are going for a primordial earth anti magic related talisman I feel like going for a significantly more violent combo, not a dispelling enhancer.
MPurification, Spellbreaking, Stone. For a little talisman representing the world which tore the winds apart and grounded them deep in the earth.
Missing Worldly Warding seems like a shame but also I don't know what I'd remove...
Possibly an alternate combo about the mountains as a protector for dwarves, MValaya, Worldly Warding, Sanctuary, seems like a potent combo, but I don't know that it fits in World that Was Combo.
I'm pretty skeptical about using the ocean as a source of anti magic.
I just don't see the connections, magic isn't washed away its grounded. It doesn't flow towards the ocean it blows around in the winds and I don't think it soaks into the oceans any faster than it does the earth. It doesn't seem to purify anything, and a lot of the worlds nastiest darkest gribbles come from there.
And it seems to be a pretty distant connection for a dwarf of this time period to draw from, when most of them probably think of the ocean as a suspiciously needlessly large lake.
As far as your combo goes it seems to be somewhat like AA but creating a hostile AOE of hot pressure for enemies to stand in? Unless the Pressure of Rune of Submersion is actually pushing enemies away. In which case I'm not really seeing the effect synergies rather than just being really good at breaking down and dispelling magic.
I still think that a better theme would be looking at the mountains that break magic and protect dwarves from it. However I'd have to look at my old suggestion and try and decide if its still up to date or if it can be improved by newer runes.
Missing Worldly Warding seems like a shame but also I don't know what I'd remove...
Possibly an alternate combo about the mountains as a protector for dwarves, MValaya, Worldly Warding, Sanctuary, seems like a potent combo, but I don't know that it fits in World that Was Combo.
Shimmering blue-green field of pressure presses on enemy mildly contingent on strength of spell disspelled but always wounding, was ocean themed Rune from beginning--I should know, I invented it. Purification makes pressure bubble very hot, Spelleating wipes spell away if survive original attack.
No worries about being curt.
And thanks for the clarification, I misread the detailed runelist entry describing the caster as the person who cast the rune not the person who cast the spell.
As far as the anti magic comment was going it was more about this:
Which I assumed was also somewhere linked in the original logic of the MSubmersion
There was never any question that the Submersion was going to be aquatic/ocean themed.
No worries about being curt.
And thanks for the clarification, I misread the detailed runelist entry describing the caster as the person who cast the rune not the person who cast the spell.
As far as the anti magic comment was going it was more about this:
Which I assumed was also somewhere linked in the original logic of the MSubmersion
There was never any question that the Submersion was going to be aquatic/ocean themed.
The effect I think will happen is, to cut it brief, Submersion breaks Spell and forces oceanic pressure on enemy to at least Power Washer (Industrial) level, Purification turns magic into goopy lava heat to vaporize caster if survive pressure wave, Spelleating ensures they can't then try casting the spell again and reinforces disspelling if survive both.
A proposal for the next component of the World That Was set combination, an anti-magic antediluvian ocean belt for striking enemy spellcasters, hoped effect as a component of the World That Was is essentially a more long term Magic Surpression where, where ever ash from any other component lands, for a good long time magic ends up anywhere from impeded to entirely ineffectual, as though it had just been choked under the waves in some oceanic eruption and is still constantly being pulled under.
I feel like we're already fine on anti magic, but I do like the ocean vibes. I think we could use something that fixes us in place more, so we can't constantly be batted around by enemies with far greater mass.
I feel like we're already fine on anti magic, but I do like the ocean vibes. I think we could use something that fixes us in place more, so we can't constantly be batted around by enemies with far greater mass.
I mean, Snorri hasn't been knocked around in about two IRL years. Back when he fought Gustalixx the greater daemon. Everything else just vaporizes these days.
It would be useful but its not really a pressing concern imo.
The effect I think will happen is, to cut it brief, Submersion breaks Spell and forces oceanic pressure on enemy to at least Power Washer (Industrial) level, Purification turns magic into goopy lava heat to vaporize caster if survive pressure wave, Spelleating ensures they can't then try casting the spell again and reinforces disspelling if survive both.
Yeah you've clarified the intended effect. I'm not in love with it, but I get it.
Unusually for me, my big concern was the theme, I don't think oceans are a good counter magic theme.
Happy to offer my two cents to the effect (not that I think I can really add), but I'd like to focus on the major critism first, since I so often get lost in the weeds.
Yeah you've clarified the intended effect. I'm not in love with it, but I get it.
Unusually for me, my big concern was the theme, I don't think oceans are a good counter magic theme.
Happy to offer my two cents to the effect (not that I think I can really add), but I'd like to focus on the major critism first, since I so often get lost in the weeds.
Honestly, I think it works if you take the theme as underwater magma chambers going up in an eruption. In my mind, if it hooks into the set combo, mages within the ashstorm are forceably put under more and more pressure the more magic they use until they erupt in a miniature volcano of heat and steam.
Honestly, I think it works if you take the theme as underwater magma chambers going up in an eruption. In my mind, if it hooks into the set combo, mages within the ashstorm are forceably put under more and more pressure the more magic they use until they erupt in a miniature volcano of heat and steam.
Honestly, I think it works if you take the theme as underwater magma chambers going up in an eruption. In my mind, if it hooks into the set combo, mages within the ashstorm are forceably put under more and more pressure the more magic they use until they erupt in a miniature volcano of heat and steam.
Volcano's aren't known for their anti magic properties either. It's getting increasingly high concept.
And it seems strange that in the sentence underwater volcano the MRune is putting the emphasis on Underwater not on Volcano.
Yeah you've clarified the intended effect. I'm not in love with it, but I get it.
Unusually for me, my big concern was the theme, I don't think oceans are a good counter magic theme.
Happy to offer my two cents to the effect (not that I think I can really add), but I'd like to focus on the major critism first, since I so often get lost in the weeds.
One, all cards on the table I think the 'dragged underwater to drown and burn' thing is a cool image personally and I am willing to make the bet on that.
Secondly, I think the Runes I have chosen (I do want to note there is also a build that switches out Purification for Expurgation floating around the Discord) will carry through and do the do, particularly since while we do hear about some weird magic shit in the water there seems to me to be far less than there is on land, making me think something is effecting magic at sea.
One, all cards on the table I think the 'dragged underwater to drown and burn' thing is a cool image personally and I am willing to make the bet on that.
Secondly, I think the Runes I have chosen (I do want to note there is also a build that switches out Purification for Expurgation floating around the Discord) will carry through and do the do, particularly since while we do hear about some weird magic shit in the water there seems to me to be far less than there is on land, making me think something is effecting magic at sea.
If we're discussing ideas for Snorri's anti-magic talisman, I'll throw my hat in the ring I suppose.
Improved Brynbar (I'll let someone else come up with a better name)
MDeep Gate + Earths Burden + Roots = Power of the Earth
-Deep Gate Combo: Enemies suffer even greater casting debuff and spells that are not dispelled are weakened around the user. The user's equipped Master Runes have one aspect of their effect improved.
-Earths Burden: Wearer has increased strength as long as their feet are on the ground
-Roots: Structure projects materially appropriate "roots" into the ground that anchor and stabilize it
This Talisman functions as an Anti-Magic tool, Strength Enhancer, and Direct Rune Empowerer.
The general synergy idea is that both Deep Gate and Earths Burden draw strength/power from the earth and can play of eachother, and Roots will be able to act as a firmer and deeper connection to the earth and as a conduit for them to draw even more power up from the depths.
Mechanics:
Deep Gates general anti-magic debuff primarily functions by saturating the surrounding area in Deep Magic which stifles the Winds of Magic. This is enhanced by Roots possibly providing a channel by which Deep Gate can actually force the Winds down into the earth and Ground them, possibly enhanced by Earths Burden literally weighing the down the Winds. While simultaneously acting as a pathway for Deep Gate to more easily reach deep into the earth to draw up even more Deep Magic enhancing all of its functions. A Drain and Fountain in one.
Earths Burden is empowered in a few ways in this combo. Roots allows it to draw more power from the earth as Snorri will be far more literally connected to the ground. Being anchored physically to the ground would also assist massively in actually bringing that greater strength to bare. It would be empowered more by the plentiful Deep Magic of Deep Gate more than most runes I would think, given its nature. It would also only help Deep Gate draw up more power from the earth, if in a different manner and vice-versa.
Roots, as stated, is primarily acting as a pathway for Earths Burden and Deep Gate to better draw up their respective powers, but it is also enhanced. Mostly the capacity of Deep Gate and Earths Burden to reach into the earth and draw up power would allow Roots to reach even further into the earth and act as an even better anchor. Minor in comparison to everything else this combo is doing, but notable.
Overall, functionally, this combo is just Deep Gate but better plus some serious strength enhancement and the minor but notable benefit of making Snorri all but impossible to move by force.
Thematically:
This Talisman acts as the final piece to the World the Was set combo.
Where Barak Azamar is the World in it's entirety, who's state is informed by the rest of the pieces.
Where Skarrenbakraz is the furious Sky, the lightning that craters the ground, the cutting winds that wear away mountian faces, the Ash that chokes the World.
Where Zharrgal is the Surface that is Created and Destroyed endlessly. Where mountains and valleys are made and unmade. Where what is above meets what comes from below.
This Talisman represents that Below. It is the Power of the Earth, it is the boiling, churning Magma that comes from the very Core of the World that erupts upon the face of the planet.
Mechanics:
Deep Gates general anti-magic debuff primarily functions by saturating the surrounding area in Deep Magic which stifles the Winds of Magic. This is enhanced by Roots possibly providing a channel by which Deep Gate can actually force the Winds down into the earth and Ground them, possibly enhanced by Earths Burden literally weighing the down the Winds. While simultaneously acting as a pathway for Deep Gate to more easily reach deep into the earth to draw up even more Deep Magic enhancing all of its functions. A Drain and Fountain in one.
Been thinking about this bit and while everything else in this quote makes sense, I don't think Earth's Burden as a user focused strength boosting rune would enhance any Grounding effect. If you replaced Earth's Burden with Thungni I think you'd get that - not super relevant to this project but a thought to keep in mind for later projects where Grounding is the main goal.
Been thinking about this bit and while everything else in this quote makes sense, I don't think Earth's Burden as a user focused strength boosting rune would enhance any Grounding effect. If you replaced Earth's Burden with Thungni I think you'd get that - not super relevant to this project but a thought to keep in mind for later projects where Grounding is the main goal.
Yeah, it's just a maybe, Not likely. It's got Burden in the name which fits for that sorta effect. Plus it draws strength from the earth so I feel like there's gotta be something deeper going on with that rune than just acting as a strength booster. Maybe not Deep Magic, but something else is there, so the grounding effect is just like, maybe? Possibly?
Been thinking about this bit and while everything else in this quote makes sense, I don't think Earth's Burden as a user focused strength boosting rune would enhance any Grounding effect. If you replaced Earth's Burden with Thungni I think you'd get that - not super relevant to this project but a thought to keep in mind for later projects where Grounding is the main goal.
If we wanted an effect that breaks up magic and feeds it into other runes to be grounded, Spellbreaking is right there.
But I guess when we're 4 deep in Thungni combos, you don't just stop.
Does it?
Like?
Can you provide a source because thats really interesting.
As far as I was aware, the only interaction that we knew about between Deep Magic and the Winds was that Snorri's magic eye sees nothing where Deep Magic is, however other naturally wind sighted creatures just see the winds. I don't remember any detail like it being mentioned that they see the normal winds behaving differently.
Alternately the presence of Deep magic naturally enables all the previous functions of the rune of Thungni's presence better, and the combo may actually be
Deep Gate
Talismanic
The user's equipped Master Runes have one aspect of their effect improved. This affects itself, improving the Rune of Thungi's Presence on this talisman.
If we wanted an effect that breaks up magic and feeds it into other runes to be grounded, Spellbreaking is right there.
But I guess when we're 4 deep in Thungni combos, you don't just stop.
Does it?
Like?
Can you provide a source because thats really interesting.
As far as I was aware, the only interaction that we knew about between Deep Magic and the Winds was that Snorri's magic eye sees nothing where Deep Magic is, however other naturally wind sighted creatures just see the winds. I don't remember any detail like it being mentioned that they see the normal winds behaving differently.
Alternately the presence of Deep magic naturally enables all the previous functions of the rune of Thungni's presence better, and the combo may actually be
Deep Gate
Talismanic
The user's equipped Master Runes have one aspect of their effect improved. This affects itself, improving the Rune of Thungi's Presence on this talisman.
Turn 56 results
-- Combo, Deep Gate [Master Rune of Thungni's Presence, Rune of Thungni, Rune of Siphoning] Enemies suffer even greater casting debuff and spells that are not dispelled are weakened around the user. The user's equipped Master Runes have one aspect of their effect improved. (Your Windsight Eye shows that the Runes saturate an area in Deep Magic, and for some reason that energy is oddly resistant to being used by Wizards when it normally wouldn't be.)
Turn 56 results
-- Combo, Deep Gate [Master Rune of Thungni's Presence, Rune of Thungni, Rune of Siphoning] Enemies suffer even greater casting debuff and spells that are not dispelled are weakened around the user. The user's equipped Master Runes have one aspect of their effect improved. (Your Windsight Eye shows that the Runes saturate an area in Deep Magic, and for some reason that energy is oddly resistant to being used by Wizards when it normally wouldn't be.)
Okay thanks. I think thats slightly different from what I interpreted your statement as, which was that Deep Magic inherently is resistant to use in magic.
This might be talking past your combo though, while the Deep Magic behaviour is interesting to me in general, I don't think it matters for the specific item since that Deep Magic special or not is definitely hard to use.
Its a annoyingly ambiguous statement as to if the magic resistance is a general property of deep magic or a special property of the deep magic that the gate draws up.
In fact I think the "It normally wouldn't be" means that normally Deep magic isn't normally resistant. And I think if it was then between Menlinwen and the Brana who visit Khazagar I would have expected we would have heard about this.
If we wanted an effect that breaks up magic and feeds it into other runes to be grounded, Spellbreaking is right there.
But I guess when we're 4 deep in Thungni combos, you don't just stop.
Non-battlemagic spells cast against user are dispelled. Battlemagic only has a chance at being dispelled. *Long acting spells can only be dispelled at the moment of casting.
Non-battlemagic spells cast against user are dispelled. Battlemagic only has a chance at being dispelled. *Long acting spells can only be dispelled at the moment of casting.
Sure Spellbreaking dispels, but how does Spellbreaking dispel?
At the level of abstraction you are looking its unclear, but if we apply some pattern recognition to the list of combos and the effects its associated with, it looks like spellbreaking dispels by... breaking up enemy magic:
Magic Breaker
Armour
Enemy Magic breaks down around the wearer, unmade by the siwrling energies of the Runes
Rune of Spellbreaking
Rune of Warding
Rune of Stone
Ancestral Aegis
Banner
Magic cast at the formation bearing this banner will be diffused, broken down and used to power a swirling field of Runic energy and wind that can withstand even the most ruinous of blows from sources mundane and magical, and burns the daemonic.
Master Rune of Grungni
Rune of Valaya
Rune of Spellbreaking
Glittering Beacon
Banner
Runesmiths feel an intrinsic pull to the banner, the effects of the Runes they cast grow in strength and their ability to deny enemy magic magnified.
Rune of Spellbreaking
Rune of Spelleating
Rune of Thungni
Adamant Maker Expurgation
Talismanic
Target is surrounded in an inverted magical shield, their body burns from inside as nearby magic can be used to generate enough heat to vaporize them in a flash of light. Devastatingly effective against Magical entities.
A Rune array whose sole purpose is meant to channel the titanic energy needed to purify Gromril to the point that it becomes Adamant without destroying the smelter itself. The cost is so exorbitant that the array must spend a decade recharging.
The bar grows bright as the energy is pumped through it, growing so bright that it becomes near blinding before settling down to a sheen of silver said to bring a tear to the eye.
Master Rune of Purification/Snorri Gift Giver
Rune of Warding
Rune of Spellbreaking
Siphoning/Conversion
Talismanic
Failed enemy magic casts are transformed into a cushion when battle rolls are lost.
Rune of Spelleating
Rune of Spellbreaking
Rune of Warding
Valaya's Indignance
Talismanic
Spells cast against the user are broken down and the caster is burned and they forget how to cast the spell for a time. The magical energy is stored by the staff, and at the user's command, the energy can be fired back out as bolts of blinding, searing light, or be used to fuel terrible visions that can instill terror.
Master Rune of Spellspite
Rune of Lightfight
Rune of Lightspite
Amplifier
Talismanic
Enemy magic is broken up and used to greatly improve the casting of all Runes around the user's person.
Master Rune of Amplification/Snerra Magnasdottir
Rune of Thungni
Rune of Stone
Flamedrinking
Talismanic
Magical and mundane flame fired against the user is absorbed and turned into Runic energy.
Rune of Thungni's Presence
Rune of Thungni
Rune of Forgeflame
I am uncertain about Flamedrinking as unlike the others, it doesn't really do anything with the runic energy after its converted fire into it. But I figure that may be more of a lack of any rune that does things with it rather than moving magic and fire around.
Deep Gate wasn't included because it only dampens non-dispelled magic rather than breaking it down and repurposing it.
Amplifier and Valaya's Indignance are the only combos that seem to be breaking up and repurposing enemy magic that don't include Spellbreaking in some way.
Expurgation is the only combo which includes Spellbreaking that isn't reactive to enemy casting.
It's a little difficult to break away the other runes as variables.
Warding has 4 combos but of those only one doesn't share Spellbreaking, that one (Hearthward) has no mention of breaking down magic.
Spelleatings only combo that doesn't include Spellbreaking is the precursor to the MGromril, which has no mention of breaking down magic.
Stone is the other one that comes up multiple times in the list and oddly it can go anyway appearing 1 with, 1 without and 1 in a non magic effecting combo.
Thungni only appears alongside Spellbreaking once, which actually may be the only combo that Spellbreaking doesn't do this, and also appears to be reasonably well associated with the behaviour.
Theres no such thing as perfect evidence but Spellbreaking is more associated with the type of combo that breaks up and repurposes magic than any other rune. Warding and Thungni are the next most common runes, however its reasonable that may just be that Warding is generally a more common complement rune to Spellbreaking as it doesn't have the independent results that Thungni does.
Let me know if you think I've overlooked any combos worth considering.
E: Oh to be clear, I'm not saying the effect of Spellbreaking is "break up enemy spells and feed them to runes." I'm saying "the way Spellbreaking breaks spells leaves clumps of magic floating around that is very easy to be absorbed by other runes."
E: Oh to be clear, I'm not saying the effect of Spellbreaking is "break up enemy spells and feed them to runes." I'm saying "the way Spellbreaking breaks spells leaves clumps of magic floating around that is very easy to be absorbed by other runes."
Every combo that's gone into making Deep Gate from Snerra's glittering beacon, to amplifier, to deep gate have all had Ancestor Thungni in it so at this point you just kind of have to continue the trend lol. MDeep gate + ? + Thungni is 4 thungni's in.
The elves/Brana can't actually tell deep magic apart from Chamon. Or at least the blank area that Snorri notices look like Chamon to them. So there's definitely something odd going on there. At the same time, this is Khazagar with its million different antimagic runes baked into the structure at all points so it might be entirely possible they can't tell if its deep magic dampening their magic use or just the 50 spellbreaking runes around them.
The elves/Brana can't actually tell deep magic apart from Chamon. Or at least the blank area that Snorri notices look like Chamon to them. So there's definitely something odd going on there. At the same time, this is Khazagar with its million different antimagic runes baked into the structure at all points so it might be entirely possible they can't tell if its deep magic dampening their magic use or just the 50 spellbreaking runes around them.
From their investigation on T54 it makes it sound like they can't tell it apart from the winds in general but what they saw was a lot of Chamon that Snorri thinks was actually deep magic. So I think it looks like Chamon.
Then you entered the realm of true conjecture. Testimony from Stonebound Brana all agree that the ritual drew in a massive amount of Chamon, but was that actually just the golden wind, or Deep Magic. Similarly, while you are sure the golden glow now intrinsic to Runes created on Khazagar's grounds wasn't from any Rune you had made, was it from the amount of Deep Magic, or even a side effect of the ritual? Difficult to say when the observers couldn't even discern Deep Magic from the rest of the Winds apparently. They weren't dismissing the vision of your eye, but who can say if they are wrong or if there's some variable to your Rune of Windsight you cannot account for?
