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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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@soulcake can we simplify the rune of Zon-Dum or make a variant that don't require a gemstone ?
We don't understand it yet, once we did that we could simplify it. And then we'd need to iterate it through several combos to get back to the level of power the OG has.
 
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If we try to make it full adamant we still can't add another Rune due to the Sapphire ?
soulcake did say that if we could find a gem that holds magic at least as well as Adamant we could use that. However we do not have any leads on what could do this, and we'd need to have a better understanding of Akazit and the Metal research tree to really begin searching...
Warpstone? Maybe? You know if there weren't a dozen other more important reasons to not try that even if we were certain of success, which we are not.

However from a 4th wall perspective, we know that the small amounts of Gromril picked up but Azrilwut significantly strengthened that wood to the point of bearing armour runes.
Potentially growing artifical crystals using Adamant crushed into dust as nucleation points would give us the best of both worlds. Or Gromril even if it can survive the Smelting process.
This does of course require Snorri to develop even more new fields of science (and break a Durudin Challenge to grind up the Adamant) so its a long term idea at best. And its possible that artificially grown crystals wouldn't be done in their natural setting of winds and so might lack magical properties that the Gemstone needs in the first place.
 
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Good old ZonDum, the rune that makes so much more sense being a talisman category but the guy who made it did so via multiple armor compressions. It is not Odd, nor does it have the power trait. It's only C6 but that's still 10AP to understand it with zero traits to boost. It takes less time to understand MThungni than this thing. MFeatherweight at C9 takes 1ap to understand thanks to our traits for reference.
 
I would like to repeat my earlier comment that Snorri's take on the original Zon-Dum combo could totally form 2/3rds of some set combo together with Empowered Waking since they share the connectionof being temporary effects requiring a charge-up.
Like, Zon-Dum is cool, but the last update has opened a path towards something even more ambitious.
 
I would like to repeat my earlier comment that Snorri's take on the original Zon-Dum combo could totally form 2/3rds of some set combo together with Empowered Waking since they share the connectionof being temporary effects requiring a charge-up.
Like, Zon-Dum is cool, but the last update has opened a path towards something even more ambitious.
Perhaps, I don't think it would be with the body though - it'd be the Heart or Armor, since those are far more directly about manipulation of magical or elemental energies.
 
Tossing my hat into the Hearth Guard War Machine ring since it's kind of a shame that the Master Engineers don't get to stretch their legs right now, keeping in mind that I am Runesmith Ungradum Bungrimsson and that this is entirely tertiary to Maraz...

Brynazrildron A Gnolrik

Shining Silver Lightning of the Wise King (IE Grungni)

A massive Bolt Hurler, the main body made of Pure Gromril lacquered a shiny silver. Knotwork made from Azrilwut flowing along the thing depicts Mighty Grungni and the construction of Drongrundum, filigreed with gold writing exhorting him to make the bolts strike like the lightning and the thunder from the vast sky above, to fall as destructively on the enemy as his furious hammer once did as he struck at his foes. A legend involving Grungni from each Major Hold lines the limbs of the Bolt Hurler itself, carved in the most precise detail possible, while the axles of the wheels are capped in gold of the highest purity, carved with a map of the Karaz Ankor entire, precious jewels encrusted in it where each of the Major Holds is located on the map.

Runically, it bears...

The Master Rune of Lightning Strikes: Fed the blood of an Elder Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, each bolt will strike home with the force of a lightning bolt, slamming down and destroying everything it strikes as surely as Grungni's own hammer once did.

Rune of Grungni: A Dragon Ogre Shaggoth's Heart, given up in offering, in supplication, to the God of Lightning. Such power will fill the bolts with power, with energy, with crackling, bursting, burning electricity, every blow an invocation of the bearer of Drongrundum to smite all on the field.

Rune of Penetrating: Barazgal, melted, smelted, burned away so that the First Miner might pick and cleave and rip into the foe as he once ripped into the stone and the rock in search of wealth.

Every bolt will be a shot of lightning to the enemy, cracking any armor, breaking any defense, tearing apart any formation as the force of Grungni himself strikes them, every blow an invocation of him and his fury.

Grozdrengi
Many Slayer

A fairly simple Bolt Hurler, made of Dronwut stained red, trimmed with gold lacquered white and tastefully accentuated with emeralds at key points. The gold is in the form of knotwork tracing along the contraption, the emeralds studding points along its mechanistic working: a testament to beauty in function. Subtle by the standards of most of Snorri's work.

At least, until it actually fires and evaporates a few enemy regiments with freezing cold shrapnel.

Runes:

M. Shardthrower (???): The biggest X.Factor in my mind, in that we don't know it or what its reagent would be. Ideally we already have at least the T2/T3 form so this can be a moderate investment/Moderate return build. When ammo strikes home it will shatter, tossing hard shrapnel absolutely everywhere.

Cleaving (T2-T4 Cockatrice Eye): So the shrapnel can break through enemy armor, with effect of Cleaving emphasized by the cockatrice such that whatever shoddy crap gets put in its way, it can still just break through like so much air.

Penetrating (Wyrren Duraz???): Cold, hard steel dripping with frost, yet further punching through whatever it strikes as well as freezing the enemies it hits.

In short, transforming a Bolt Hurler into both a Single-Target and Regimental War Machine that can grind through both by tossing up clouds of freezing shrapnel and punch through more dangerous single targets as well.
 
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Rune of Grungni: A Dragon Ogre Shaggoth's Heart, given up in offering, in supplication, to the God of Lightning. Such power will fill the bolts with power, with energy, with crackling, bursting, burning electricity, every blow an invocation of the bearer of Drongumdrum to smite all on the field.
Funny thing here, Grungni in his war aspect is represented by blunt weapons and in his civil aspect by edged and piercing weapons:
on a weapon it depends on whether it has an edge/point vs a flat surface. Because Grungni uses Drongrundum in his war aspect and a pickaxe in his more mundane aspect.
So I don't think you're getting the Drongumdrum effect you want on a bolt thrower, it'd probably have to be a Grudge Thrower.
Which probably doesn't jive well with the Rune of Penetrating? I mean a catapult stone is probably going to go through a lot of things, so it might still work.
 
Funny thing here, Grungni in his war aspect is represented by blunt weapons and in his civil aspect by edged and piercing weapons:

So I don't think you're getting the Drongumdrum effect you want on a bolt thrower, it'd probably have to be a Grudge Thrower.
Which probably doesn't jive well with the Rune of Penetrating? I mean a catapult stone is probably going to go through a lot of things, so it might still work.
Ah, but on war machines and similar engineering work I am hopeful that it is essentially a fail-safe of "Improving craftsmanship+functionality."

But if you are interested in a Grudge Thrower I may have the inklings of an idea there as well.
 
Ah, but on war machines and similar engineering work I am hopeful that it is essentially a fail-safe of "Improving craftsmanship+functionality."

But if you are interested in a Grudge Thrower I may have the inklings of an idea there as well.
So you're hoping for more of a Forging or Morgrim like effect but with Grungni flavour rather than hoping for a lightning effect out of that rune?
While theres certainly overlap in what the ancestors runes do, I'd probably think it would be more like his banner/talisman effect of protecting the crew from physical threats. Or it will have a prospector like effect of just nudging the crew into picking better targets.

I'm always interested in more combo designs.
 
So you're hoping for more of a Forging or Morgrim like effect but with Grungni flavour rather than hoping for a lightning effect out of that rune?
I'm hoping for a lightning effect on it, but it Bolt Throwing Bolt Throwier is not really a failure state in my mind, if that makes sense?

As for the Grudge Thrower I'm still chewing on it aesthetically, but Rune wise:

M. Purification (Engineering)+Breakshot+Force

The effect I'm shooting for is very simple:


View: https://youtu.be/R9NL6toGGSM?si=N2Bn2b_vQ9pPr2Ll&t=567

If we learn M. Conflagration at some point or convert Conduction, they could replace Purification.
 
I'm hoping for a lightning effect on it, but it Bolt Throwing Bolt Throwier is not really a failure state in my mind, if that makes sense?

As for the Grudge Thrower I'm still chewing on it aesthetically, but Rune wise:

M. Purification (Engineering)+Breakshot+Force

The effect I'm shooting for is very simple:


View: https://youtu.be/R9NL6toGGSM?si=N2Bn2b_vQ9pPr2Ll&t=567

If we learn M. Conflagration at some point or convert Conduction, they could replace Purification.

It makes sense but I'm just not really seeing what makes this uniquely synergistic as a combo.
It feels like the theming came first and whatever it produces will be 'good enough'. And while that works well for creating evocative descriptions, I find it unsatisfying for theory crafting. It may just be that we're approaching these from different places and have to agree to disagree.

I guess for the Grudge thrower you've gone for purification because its the only one that looks like an explosion and to my mind, this is a mistake.
Making flames is only half of what it does, I'd bring in Spellburning if we're able to wish for future runes or Spellbreaking/Gazuls Flame or something to make use of the anti magic capabilities.
Otherwise, I'd just commit to saying this requires Conduction/Meteorfall to be understood into an Engineering variant. Because that would probably do everything you actually want for this combo.
 
It makes sense but I'm just not really seeing what makes this uniquely synergistic as a combo.
It feels like the theming came first and whatever it produces will be 'good enough'. And while that works well for creating evocative descriptions, I find it unsatisfying for theory crafting. It may just be that we're approaching these from different places and have to agree to disagree.

I guess for the Grudge thrower you've gone for purification because its the only one that looks like an explosion and to my mind, this is a mistake.
Making flames is only half of what it does, I'd bring in Spellburning if we're able to wish for future runes or Spellbreaking/Gazuls Flame or something to make use of the anti magic capabilities.
Otherwise, I'd just commit to saying this requires Conduction/Meteorfall to be understood into an Engineering variant. Because that would probably do everything you actually want for this combo.
I guess the big thing I'm imagining is sort of, I don't know if shaped charge is the right word but that the bolt will get into enemy armor/scale/whatever if it is tough enough to survive the original shot (Piercing) then bang (Lightning Strikes) and shock (Grungni), while also allowing that the Rune of Grungni will improve the launcher itself even as Piercing and Lightning strikes still play out as I described.

(Hopefully)

As for the Grudge Thrower, as I said I do think it could be done with Conflagration or Conduction converted to an Engineering Rune but we don't have those and whenever possible I prefer my theory crafting around Runes we actually know, even if they aren't the absolute most optimal, over asking for the AP sink of conversion or hoping we bumblefuck onto it in the case of Conflagration (especially since Soul might get suspicious if I start writing a bunch of Omakes about how, conveniently, a relevant expert wants to teach at Khazagar and is available for a Rune trade because of that :V).
 
I guess the big thing I'm imagining is sort of, I don't know if shaped charge is the right word but that the bolt will get into enemy armor/scale/whatever if it is tough enough to survive the original shot (Piercing) then bang (Lightning Strikes) and shock (Grungni), while also allowing that the Rune of Grungni will improve the launcher itself even as Piercing and Lightning strikes still play out as I described.
Did I misunderstand what you were thinking Grungi might do before?
Ah, but on war machines and similar engineering work I am hopeful that it is essentially a fail-safe of "Improving craftsmanship+functionality."
Because thats not a shock.
And I'm doubting that we'll get the improvements you described anyway.

As for the Grudge Thrower, as I said I do think it could be done with Conflagration or Conduction converted to an Engineering Rune but we don't have those and whenever possible I prefer my theory crafting around Runes we actually know, even if they aren't the absolute most optimal, over asking for the AP sink of conversion or hoping we bumblefuck onto it in the case of Conflagration (especially since Soul might get suspicious if I start writing a bunch of Omakes about how, conveniently, a relevant expert wants to teach at Khazagar and is available for a Rune trade because of that :V).
I guess I feel this is in a somewhat odd position where yes I agree that we should plan around the runes that we have, but I also think if we think the runes we have aren't up to the task being set we shouldn't force it?
Theres no pressing requirement that we have to do an explosion grudge thrower, I've got suggestions for 3 different ones already posted (On of those is an attempt to make a MPurification version as an anti mage napalm weapon) and 5 or 6 Bolt Throwers.
If we can't make the concept work properly, whats the issue with saying "Revisit this idea after ____"
 
Did I misunderstand what you were thinking Grungi might do before?

Because thats not a shock.
And I'm doubting that we'll get the improvements you described anyway.


I guess I feel this is in a somewhat odd position where yes I agree that we should plan around the runes that we have, but I also think if we think the runes we have aren't up to the task being set we shouldn't force it?
Theres no pressing requirement that we have to do an explosion grudge thrower, I've got suggestions for 3 different ones already posted (On of those is an attempt to make a MPurification version as an anti mage napalm weapon) and 5 or 6 Bolt Throwers.
If we can't make the concept work properly, whats the issue with saying "Revisit this idea after ____"
I think it will lead to shocks, as influenced by the Master Rune of Lightning Strikes; however the other possibility, much lesser but present in my mind, is that it could also make the Bolt Thrower function better, either of which I think can work and syngergize as an effect.

As for posting the Grudge Thrower already, so I don't lose track of the idea and so it can be work shopped now (including possible Runes to replace other ones).
 
Ayyyyyy finally finished binging through this! Great quest you guys have going on here. Honestly if this quest were to have ended with Snorri biting it in Thrugni's trials I would've been satisfied but I'm really happy he's trying to go the distance and become an Ancestor/Ancestor God in his own right.

Although... what would he be the Ancestor God of, exactly? Toymaking? Doing really audacious nonsense and having it succeed? Apprentice-rearing? The World's First Magick Dorf?

speaking of the Ancestor Gods, where exactly did they vanish off too? Did they just keel over from old age?

Also, what is a "RER crit"? What's a RER roll? I tried searching around in hopes of an unabbreviated mention but so far I've come up dry.
 
Guys idea, you know the titans from Dragon Age and Lyrium. We could try to make something similar as Snorri so the world is protected from the underearth and nothing corrupting can go on, so we create the titans through runes and alchemies that we are currently on track to fill out.
 
Ayyyyyy finally finished binging through this! Great quest you guys have going on here. Honestly if this quest were to have ended with Snorri biting it in Thrugni's trials I would've been satisfied but I'm really happy he's trying to go the distance and become an Ancestor/Ancestor God in his own right.

Although... what would he be the Ancestor God of, exactly? Toymaking? Doing really audacious nonsense and having it succeed? Apprentice-rearing? The World's First Magick Dorf?

speaking of the Ancestor Gods, where exactly did they vanish off too? Did they just keel over from old age?

Also, what is a "RER crit"? What's a RER roll? I tried searching around in hopes of an unabbreviated mention but so far I've come up dry.
Well Snorri is working on the theory of Magic Outside of Runes, as well as Magic Inside of Runes. Basically a unified theory of Magic, and entirely redefining Runesmithing. And also dwarven Alchemy. Those are the two big ones.

Where specifically the Ancestor Gods went is hard to say. They aren't here anymore though.

A RER roll means Random Event Roll. Soulcake rolls them to track how things are going on a Global, Regional, and Local level. As well as lots of other dice rolls to increment counters.
 
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Currently, Runelord Flork Florksson is said to be working on a Banner that projects explosions somehow, and once again of his own self-imposed challenges, as few are willing to bet he cannot in fact do something with explosions, and he cannot be bothered to take up bets not related to his field of focus. His set of Master Runes on his sloped, wedge-like armor and his mighty hammer, however, are oft occupied by the surge of Beastmen in recent years, which has slowed his progress on Runic research. The walking hurtling meteor of stringed explosions across the field means his habit of simply blowing up their foul champions is unimpeded, blowing the Dumi aside. "The Cometmaker" is a common nickname from this method of propulsion, and the burning craters he tends to leave of his enemies.
Y'all may not like it but this dorf is Peak Performance.

His special interest is explosions and he is thriving.
 
Y'all may not like it but this dorf is Peak Performance.

His special interest is explosions and he is thriving.
Flork and Snorri can bond over their Rune of Conduction variants and personal habit of bodily hurling themselves at their enemies. (Maybe commission a pair of boots from the lad, to help with the persistent "Get back here Wattok!" problem Snorri has.)
 
Flork and Snorri can bond over their Rune of Conduction variants and personal habit of bodily hurling themselves at their enemies. (Maybe commission a pair of boots from the lad, to help with the persistent "Get back here Wattok!" problem Snorri has.)
We should make them red then.

Click our heels three times and we're off!
 
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