Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

Just stating the facts. It is also a good mediative topic to go through by learning from the present and dead Alliance leaders.
As am I.

Probably with cross-comparison to the horde's leaders, depending on if we get an opportunity to learn of them.

Anyway, setting aside whether we just used the sword's innate fire powers or if it was Grok reactivating the rage of the fire lands, hopefully we're going to make some impression on the Humans here.

And you leave only ash in your wake.
This bit especially might have meaning to Scarlet Crusaders seeing how important they considered the Ashbringer to be.
 
....That's IT!
You're not a fan of the players going 'yeah sure we can totes put in the work to be a warrior wizard wiseman and master ranger yeah!' And you don't like us narratively saying that, which, fair is fair, we can roll with.
The CATCH, I think, is you're not playing around the agency of us Questers in terms of how we interact with the Story!
Like...
From our perspective it's like playing a visual novel, only we get one run. That's it.
THIS, in turn emphasizes the idea that every action SHOULD be capable of being succeeded at, on it's own terms of not in larger scope, because failure gets amplified by the looming pressure of 'we must win'!
But, and I think this is the problem-for us it feels like we keep ending up throwing actions away.

Now, on the flipside, looking back I think I can see what happened. Arc 1 we narratively defied Neeru as much as we could, even feeding Thrall a head's up as to what the Burning Blade was up to. Cue Arc 2, which became about Grok caught between Feldad and Thrall. That Arc DID come to a head due to Forneus marching on Orgrimmar, but I'm willing to bet that only happened due to the pile-up of factors like Jubei showing up to screw with us just in time to get us to turn to Proud Peak in a position of weakness, where Dark Shamanism works out poorly. So instead of the Burning Blade's big demon thing fighting Forneus and hopefully coming to a tie, it gets used up fighting Proud Peak, the mini-Cataclysm happens, and thanks to the dice, Thrall comes out seriously behind in the conclusion to Orgrimmar.

The mistake/problem, I think, is we questers don't realize just how BADLY hampered we are in figuring out how 2 Shaman or ANYTHING Spiritual. As I see it it's like the RL struggle of working free from a cult. The problem is it's a long, hard slog, and if we turn back at all we instantly get all the support we could want so long as we don't mind being at least somewhat 'compromised'. Grok's been FED Dark Shamanism, but he never really got what he needed to truly break free.

...And to be honest? There's a part of me that's worried what's going to happen is that by us going to serve with the Scarlets, that's going to get us on the radar of a certain Deathlord...And well. We all saw the job they did on Arthas. In his current state, given all the hooks Neeru established in the poor boy? I can just see it now.
Deathlord Scarlet: Grok' mash! I have been blessed with a vision by the Light, to confer onto you this HOLY and totally not evil blessing in reward for your faithful service! Just follow me into this darkened room, pay no attention to that suspiciously large and muscular hooded priest, no he doesn't look familiar, brother Sinestio here is simply dilligent in working out, and also BLESSED BY THE LIGHT to have such a mighty frame! The likes of which I will now confer ONTO YOU!
And then Grok takes the sleeping draught, and wakes to a dream of himself in the Burning Nether, with Kil'Jaeden right in front of us, because Sinestio was totally Feldad in disguise.
 
I don't really remember how much no prisoners was Proudmoore's opinion. Terenas as you said I remember an inkling was the more merciful one. Antonidas disocovered the orc's malady but after two wars with them no Alliance member were in a good merciful mood to investigate and then Thrall came.

@FractiousDay it is brought up how Thrall learned a lot from humans. How much do you think he demonstrates that besides keeping the name given to him? He doesn't well act like a humanphile in the sense he acts like one and dresses like one.
 
I don't really remember how much no prisoners was Proudmoore's opinion. Terenas as you said I remember an inkling was the more merciful one. Antonidas disocovered the orc's malady but after two wars with them no Alliance member were in a good merciful mood to investigate and then Thrall came.

@FractiousDay it is brought up how Thrall learned a lot from humans. How much do you think he demonstrates that besides keeping the name given to him? He doesn't well act like a humanphile in the sense he acts like one and dresses like one.
I'd argue a good example of that might be the way he worked up the crowd into a frenzy on the idea that THE BURNING BLADE MUST GO! Though he was not planning on the Grok' Mash Interrupt!
I also rather wish we had NOT done that- like as I see it, Yes, Grok probably still gets exiled, but I suspect Thrall would be the one under-the table helping us out, rather then us continuing under Neeru's influence, which might make a difference on the outcome of this Scarlet Crusade visit.
 
I'd argue a good example of that might be the way he worked up the crowd into a frenzy on the idea that THE BURNING BLADE MUST GO! Though he was not planning on the Grok' Mash Interrupt!
I also rather wish we had NOT done that- like as I see it, Yes, Grok probably still gets exiled, but I suspect Thrall would be the one under-the table helping us out, rather then us continuing under Neeru's influence, which might make a difference on the outcome of this Scarlet Crusade visit.
You're right. That sort of demagogue rally is what he could have learned to do when Blackmoore's tutors taught him the meaning of leadership and eloquence in speaking it.

@FractiousDay I have a question about your two quests. I see you explore a lot of topics, in doing so do you enjoy it?
 
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Now, on the flipside, looking back I think I can see what happened.
Frankly none of that is the problem, what happened feels like it would have happened in pretty much any context given the choices we made. The reason for grumbling (from my quarter at least) is

THIS, in turn emphasizes the idea that every action SHOULD be capable of being succeeded at, on it's own terms of not in larger scope, because failure gets amplified by the looming pressure of 'we must win'!
Its not even a metagaming aspect in my view, its just an aspect of how the quest is designed. Like the choices and agency stuff is good, the problem is there's very little sense of growth for Grok. Its hard for me to get behind the idea that Grok at the start of the quest wouldn't have had the same outcome to the Forneaus debacle had he been time traveled forwards skipping everything inbetween.

Thus the problem of throwing actions away. Just because I can see why it makes narrative sense for Grok to focus on what he did in his meditations, that doesn't mean it doesn't feel like a waste of actions to explicitly try to start towards one thing because of the description of the update and have it turn around and have nothing directly to do with that, an issue which has been prevalent throughout the quest which I'd point most happening when dealing with our original warband and our inability to get them to work with us for any reason more than "we stab em if they don't" despite investing numerous actions into it.

I don't really remember how much no prisoners was Proudmoore's opinion. Terenas as you said I remember an inkling was the more merciful one. Antonidas disocovered the orc's malady but after two wars with them no Alliance member were in a good merciful mood to investigate and then Thrall came.
The two big opinions seemed to have been Terenas who felt that they'd eventually loose their desire for conquest vs Proudmore and Trollsbane who demanded the orcs all be killed.

Antonidas seemingly had no opinion, but was interested in studying them and certainly spent time on it (though given that its Antonidas who knows how much actual time was spent, the lore for the man says his first thesis was on time travel at the age of 12!)

In fact he apparently wrote three thesis on the matter

"The Causality of War: A Comprehensive Study on Orc Lassitude."

"The Contrast of Orc Tradition, Sociology, and Psychological Practices from Before and After the Second War."

"Empirical Study on the Formulation and History of High Profile Fel Magics, and their Relation to the Orc Race."

All three of which would be quite interesting for Grok to read, the second especially, particularly when combined with the first.

Anyway, while he was interested in studying them and suggested the whole "spiritual remedy thing" he didn't act to put his research into practice.

The other alliance leaders, like Genn seemingly weren't a fan of killing them all, but also hated that they had to pay taxes to upkeep the camps and in fact doing so was one of the key reasons the alliance started breaking down, with Anastarian Sunstrider taking off (although ironically for an elf he apparently had never intended to remain in the alliance long term no matter what), but Gilneas and Stormgrade left shortly thereafter due to the taxes (not just for the orcs, also for rebuilding stormwind) and Trollsbane wanting to kill em all still.

Anyway, Thrall (unintentionally or no) smashed any hopes of peace with the Doomhammer. Literally...well no not literally, killing Blackmoure was far from a deal breaker* but in taking up both it and Doomhammer's very distinctive armour (amongst other things) he was essentially declaring that he was following Doomhammer's legacy, which sends all the wrong messages. Having Grom as one of his most major advisers did not help either.

*Side note I've often wondered what an AU quest with Taretha surviving would be like.

Unrelated to it, but reminded by the ash thing. The Ashbringer's power comes from the crystal Mograin found that he described as an embodiment of darkness (presumably void or fel magic.) Now apparently they'd intended to at some point reveal it was part of a corrupted Naaru (presumably K'ure in Oshugan whose injuries were leaking void and leads to the corruption of Cho'gal...to void not to evil it is Cho'gal or K'ara the Darkstar of the Shadowmoon clan) but never did. However it also makes sense for it to just be something from Draenor itself. Essentially Grond's body was seemingly excellent at absorbing power and energy of practically any source and his "children" the orcs are as well, so it'd make sense for part of his body (which is all over the place in Draenor) to absorb that void energy from K'ure or K'are.*

Dunno it just seemed neat to me that they'd have similar origins and also Grond is cool.

*Side note, according to Blizzard the Horde's symbol

Is meant to be based off of visions they had of K'ure in Oshugan which was eventually picked as the Horde's symbol because it was a vision shared by so many orc tribes and cultures so was very universal.

Which is neat.
 
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*Side note I've often wondered what an AU quest with Taretha surviving would be like
I thought of the idea of playing Blackmoore the traitorous two faced rapscallion as a very interesting option with the way this quest works. You get to mold the interned orcs and the son of Durotan however you want especially giving him a different name than Thrall under his canon motivation of getting power or a position that ascends him as a token opportunistic loyalist or his canon ambitions to seize power.
 
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I thought of the idea of playing Blackmoore the traitorous two faced rapscallion as a very interesting option with the way this quest works. You get to mold the interned orcs and the son of Durotan however you want especially giving him a different name than Thrall under his canon motivation of getting power or a position that ascends him as a token opportunistic loyalist or his canon ambitions to seize power.
mmm. Thing about Blackmoore is that to do anything, but his canon motivations you have to kinda chip away at so much that there's basically nothing left but an entirely different person, which is fine.

I do think the idea of playing an "insert character here" who intends to use the orcs for their own purposes and ends up with lil baby Go'el is an interesting idea though and there's certainly plenty of things you could do with that concept.
 
mmm. Thing about Blackmoore is that to do anything, but his canon motivations you have to kinda chip away at so much that there's basically nothing left but an entirely different person, which is fine.
A good way to affect him is something that happens to him before he meets his destiny with Thrall.

It could be he nearly died and it made him act differently as the lone survivor of one battle or a chance encounter with a cleric imbued with the holy light made him turn from a womanising abuser into a repentant sinner who found the light as warcraft would call it.
 
So there's a few issues here, broadly relating to meditation being unclear or unwanted in the result, and the wider concern of not wanting to waste actions.

Firstly, I'll note that this quest thrives in ambiguity. Neither you nor Grok have perfect information. Sometimes you can test things and see how things work, other times I will intentionally lead you down particular paths, though generally I'll provide signs for you to read rather than tricking you.

For this specific issue with the meditation action, I regard 'dealing' with the shamanism problems Grok is having as a longer action. For example, you might say that you want to build a castle. I could say that Grok estimates that action to take 10 actions, or 10 weeks. This would involve an action to get resources, one to start building, one to get more resources, one to do something else, and so on. The actions would progress up to 10 in that manner and at the end the castle would be build.

With shamanism here, Grok, who I remind you is not and has never been a proper shaman, is puzzling his way through the complex manner of cultural divergence in spiritual tradition. He's been told about various traditions of different peoples, some of which practice sacrifices, some of which practice subjugation, many of which regard the Elements differently. My chain of logic there was that Grok was indeed distracted, but this didn't stop him thinking about it entirely, instead he consider the nature of the allocation of resources in societies. In terms of dark shamanism the shaman takes the resources, enslaving or subjugating the elemental to their own ends. Other shaman disagree with this and instead work with elementals, even when they're wrecking the place.

This turn's meditation therefore represented the initial stages of the project of working out what's going on with dark shamanism. In the manner of a castle this might have represented the surveying of a site or the building of foundations. The analogy somewhat breaks down I'll admit but you get the idea.

When I'm writing stuff about shamanism I'm trying to do a lot of things. I'm trying to provide a compelling narrative about the orcs and their practices, to show off some of Grok's internal thoughts and show him as a character not just a robot puppeted around by the 20 or so people who vote currently, and I'm also trying indeed to fulfil the choices you make in your actions, in this case presumably fulfilling the aim to get your shamanism back after you lost it.

In this specific action, what is Grok trying to accomplish? How does he go about confronting his issues? Can he just sit around and think about it? No. How does he confront the guilt and horror he feels at having to wade through blood and dying centaurs and 'fail' at the whole Forneus thing? 'With difficulty and over a long period of time' might be the answer. Incidentally, I'll entirely admit that I also did less to actually get Grok's struggles onto the page rather than in my head and considerations, so I've edited in a couple of minor bits to better portray this.

Therefore I don't really think it reasonable to say 'we didn't do the action', you did meditate, you did meditate on issues around the one you're considering, you didn't wander off and bake a pie or something. The action and result represented both the nuance of the action and the nebulous nature of it. As I mentioned I'll admit that I could have perhaps been less specific about what you'd be doing, but as mentioned above I considered this with the chain of logic which stems from the broader questions of what dark shamanism is and what it represents.

On the second point about the 'optimal' way to play a quest and do things, I also don't really accept these. I agree that in something like a visual novel you can choose an 'optimal' path. If you choose X, Y will occur and because a computer program is dictating what happens there's a branching path of X number of issues with only Y number of possible results.

If you are perceiving this quest in the same manner as you would such a program that's frankly a massive mistake. There are things you know, there are things you know you don't know, there are things you think you know which are wrong and there are further things that you don't know about and you don't know you don't know. In a quest about agency, ambiguity will be a given.

In some cases I find this quite frustrating. In both this quest and in my other one the questers have chosen not to be a wizard and then expect to do wizard things competently. In my other quest the PC ended up a heavily mutated wreck because of Dhar overuse, whereas here you've blundered into things like dark shamanism because Grok didn't know enough about shamanism generally to differentiate between different traditions. This shouldn't be a surprise to you. If you want to be a shaman then pick a shaman.

There's a naturally competitive urge to play 'optimally'. I can certainly understand this. I enjoy strategy games and I enjoy setting up something like the 'perfect' battleplan in HOI or making the perfect first turns worth of moves in Total War. It's a matter of using the resources you have to serve the aims you choose.

You can waste actions, there are indeed things that would be of little consequence to do. For example some interest has been expressed in alchemy. I wouldn't necessarily regard this as wasted but you'd have to take a lot of actions to learn it and I don't think you'd use it much so that might be classified as 'wasted'. Comparably though if you take an action and later something happens to reduce the effectiveness of that action that still doesn't mean it's been 'wasted'. You took an action to get better at survival but haven't ever used it really because you've not been out in the middle of nowhere for long, and you've never been to Echo Isles so knowing about plants there is 'wasted'. Except it's not because at that point you were considering going to Echo Isles which you decided not to in the end.

On the old warband particularly, I don't think it's unreasonable to have to go about doing stuff to get them sorted. Soldiers need training if they're going to obey. If you just turn up and say 'hey im in charge now' people are going to laugh at you. This relates to a wider point which I've emphasised over time, other people have agency too. Scorn is a character and makes his own choices for example. He thought about deserting at the Crossroads but the roll said he stayed representing him deciding to hang about.

Around your points on the consequentiality of the choices, whether if you'd chosen differently different things would happen. I suppose that's a complicated one. The first arc was the tutorial arc of my first quest, so I'll simply ask for your indulgence there. Thrall at least was impressed by your shamanistic abilities, so yea your work toward that was consequential, and Feldad also approved of it. Around whether anything would have helped out against Forneus, not really, you chose the Hunted option, you got hunted and your hunter was a relatively sensible person and able to influence other people to help him. I likened this to a lich jumping out from behind a bush and ganking you, so one question you might ask would be whether you could have done anything against such an opponent. You did however have consequential engagement with the events afterward, particularly in Orgrimmar. The choice regarding considering the nature of strength and the ability to think about how others were motivated allowed you, among other things like your engagement between Thrall and Feldad's influences, to defeat Thrall's strategy, so yes that was consequential.
I have a question about your two quests. I see you explore a lot of topics, in doing so do you enjoy it?
I write interesting things. Or at least, I think I do and people seem to indicate that this is correct, especially given 2 of my fics have been plagiarised previously. I'm aware I'm at least a competent author so I write things that stretch me instead like this, which remains my first quest. I write things I've not seen before because I think there's a gap in the literature. For example, alt-Stargate fics are pretty common but IMO they never properly explore the social aspects of having the Stargate in a different country. There were 2 soviet stargate fics which I didn't think were very good, so I wrote my own, which I've now concluded. No such story in either quality or length had existed before and someone even translated it into spanish which I found highly amusing.

I generally have a specific objective I want to explore with a story, in this case agency, which it seemed appropriate to do so through a quest. In my soviet story I had the question of how Soviets would do stargate stuff, not just americans in uniforms with red stars on them, so I put stuff in like central planning, colonisation and expansion or political theory. Here we're looking at other particular themes and issues which are relevant to the study of agency.

I'll admit that sometimes the scope of the project rather gets away from me, in which case it's less enjoyable. For example in the soviet fic stuff like characterisation was largely unimportant, and a lot of the chapters devolved to conference room discussions and excuses for me to exploit information which later made me reflect that I should really have just done that fic as a timeline. But in general yes I enjoy them.
@FractiousDay it is brought up how Thrall learned a lot from humans. How much do you think he demonstrates that besides keeping the name given to him? He doesn't well act like a humanphile in the sense he acts like one and dresses like one.
the way he worked up the crowd
I would say primarily with the centralisation of the Horde along human lines. Thrall has his own set of largely ineffective reforms where he tries to pull good stuff over from the human organisations but it doesn't really work, for example the creation of a clanless or clan-neutral Horde bureaucracy. There's also points about how Thrall acts as a leader which I think are reasonable too, but are perhaps less obvious.
Daelin Proudmore was right.
Instead there was the internment camps.
To note a couple of points on this, it really depends on your attitude toward a variety of factors. For one, is it permissible, either socially or otherwise, to destroy a people? Proudmoore wants to kill them because they killed his son, while the Horde did massive damage to Stromgarde which explains why Trollbane wants to kill them. I think you could certainly say that without the orcs a lot less destruction would have been caused and the peoples of Azeroth (and indeed the Draenei) would have been safer and more prosperous. I think you can also say that Orcish culture and the apparent inability of their leaders to control the destructive impulses of the people in the general 'pass me another elf, this one's split' way means the other races are permitted to destroy them if they think it necessary, it's not like the Orcs haven't had plenty of chances, they just keep provoking. There's various Alliance vs Horde debates but at the heart of all of them is that the Orcs are an alien force of conquerors who completely fail to change over time. Incidentally I've had a question open on the question forum to mods to ask about how much genocide I'm allowed to have in my fics but it's not been answered yet so I'm assuming everything I say on the topic is fine.

! I have been blessed with a vision by the Light, to confer onto you this HOLY and totally not evil blessing
I am indeed planning something along these lines at some point
 
I write interesting things. Or at least, I think I do and people seem to indicate that this is correct, especially given 2 of my fics have been plagiarised previously. I'm aware I'm at least a competent author so I write things that stretch me instead like this, which remains my first quest. I write things I've not seen before because I think there's a gap in the literature. For example, alt-Stargate fics are pretty common but IMO they never properly explore the social aspects of having the Stargate in a different country. There were 2 soviet stargate fics which I didn't think were very good, so I wrote my own, which I've now concluded. No such story in either quality or length had existed before and someone even translated it into spanish which I found highly amusing.

I generally have a specific objective I want to explore with a story, in this case agency, which it seemed appropriate to do so through a quest. In my soviet story I had the question of how Soviets would do stargate stuff, not just americans in uniforms with red stars on them, so I put stuff in like central planning, colonisation and expansion or political theory. Here we're looking at other particular themes and issues which are relevant to the study of agency.

I'll admit that sometimes the scope of the project rather gets away from me, in which case it's less enjoyable. For example in the soviet fic stuff like characterisation was largely unimportant, and a lot of the chapters devolved to conference room discussions and excuses for me to exploit information which later made me reflect that I should really have just done that fic as a timeline. But in general yes I enjoy them.
I enjoyed what you did. You made me think as you would see in how much Grok likes to contemplate and I would put in my opinion that it's good to keep exploring.

If you wrote a quest about Blackmoore or some random OC Alliance member chancing upon an orc child in a battlefield for a raise an orc child quest, what interesting topics would you explore?

I would say primarily with the centralisation of the Horde along human lines. Thrall has his own set of largely ineffective reforms where he tries to pull good stuff over from the human organisations but it doesn't really work, for example the creation of a clanless or clan-neutral Horde bureaucracy. There's also points about how Thrall acts as a leader which I think are reasonable too, but are perhaps less obvious.
Something Grok should look into and learn from.

To note a couple of points on this, it really depends on your attitude toward a variety of factors. For one, is it permissible, either socially or otherwise, to destroy a people? Proudmoore wants to kill them because they killed his son, while the Horde did massive damage to Stromgarde which explains why Trollbane wants to kill them. I think you could certainly say that without the orcs a lot less destruction would have been caused and the peoples of Azeroth (and indeed the Draenei) would have been safer and more prosperous. I think you can also say that Orcish culture and the apparent inability of their leaders to control the destructive impulses of the people in the general 'pass me another elf, this one's split' way means the other races are permitted to destroy them if they think it necessary, it's not like the Orcs haven't had plenty of chances, they just keep provoking. There's various Alliance vs Horde debates but at the heart of all of them is that the Orcs are an alien force of conquerors who completely fail to change over time. Incidentally I've had a question open on the question forum to mods to ask about how much genocide I'm allowed to have in my fics but it's not been answered yet so I'm assuming everything I say on the topic is fine.
My attitude is more on the neutral side. Neutral in the manner of looking at history and drawing from it to make my conclusion of the reactive force of provoking a reaction with an aggressive action. I know a little about the Alliance vs Horde debate which thanks to WoW expansions provides more fodder to intensify flame wars.

As you said there's a variety of factors. Proudmoore had a grudge against the Horde because of his son's death and he's just one example of the victims of the Horde's aggressive actions. The orcs playing the part of the invading barbarian horde looking for clay and loot took the chance given to them by demons and warlocks went to a new world rich in life and vitality to pillage and conquer the existing civilisations. A perfect archetype of fantasy with medieval fantasy kingdoms fighting the barbarian fantasy horde. The victims and survivors in the middle of the wars and aftermath wouldn't like what happens to them.



So when Grom's son decided it's time to cast the die and blow Theramore sky high I have to concede Daelin would be right in his vengeance when his daughter who sacrificed so much for the orcs including the life of her own father got a manabomb sent to Theramore in thanks later by the same Horde she helped against her own father.

Cynically, I see the conflict of warcraft even at the questionable moments as a way to keep making money at the cost of making fans unhappy if their side gets it bad which includes warcraft 3 where you spend time in the undead campaign killing the Alliance members you were leading and then corrupting the land.

Then when it's time Garrosh lit the fuse on the horde vs alliance debate with a bang instead of making more peace and cooperation despite my younger self not noticing divisions already forming in the Alliance after the second war when the orcs were beaten. I also have to concede Garrosh's character when he came back from Outland. He's many things for an orc but he was always looking out for not just the horde but the orcish interest which means acting like an orc that is to be aggressive and take it like a barbarian warlord seeking clay and loot. You did mention some of those points when Varok I believe was talking of the difficulties of gathering the resources needed for developing Orgrimmar. Normal nation building that can be done in multiple ways that includes resource extraction, stealing or trading to get the resources for it.

I still hate Garrosh sometimes for his actions but I have to concede because of his character, Thrall let it happen and in the end Thrall had to end it. An ironic tragic end I would say of Thrall who met the father and then the son.


Several years ago I started my first story, 'Liberation' which admittedly wasn't very good, but dealt with the consequences of disruption between different cultures and interestingly seems to have predicted the Iron Horde to an extent. I've developed since as a writer and I'd like to have another go at the themes with an idea I came up with recently.
What's that story about?
 
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This turn's meditation therefore represented the initial stages of the project of working out what's going on with dark shamanism. In the manner of a castle this might have represented the surveying of a site or the building of foundations. The analogy somewhat breaks down I'll admit but you get the idea.
Lil bit, but I can't help but feel you're missing my point.

As I said I'm fine with the direction Grok is taking his thoughts, even if I'm not sure he'll get what he hopes to out of it (having to confront how much of your society is just an absolute nightmare ain't great for the mental health.)

My issue as you have taken on board is the expectations of what I thought the action implied, my issue wasn't with how it turned out necessarily so much as it was that I felt I had been pushed towards one thing out of an expectation of what I was getting only to get the reverse of it.

expect to do wizard things competently
OY!

I never expected competence you take back that slander :p

However I did recognise if I wanted to shaman good we needed to be a Shaman, hence my char proposition at quest start :)

But seriously this does relate to the above and to you feeling like I want it to be easy, I don't. I took on board that it was going to take a long time for Grok to get it back, one of the reasons I wanted to go to the Scarlet Crusade was because I wondered "hey what happens if Grok is doing his soul searching and is introduced to the light at the same time."

I felt that doing the two concurrently would be neat, especially seeing how learning to use the light and regaining his connection to the elements are based on the same emotions.

'hey im in charge now' people are going to laugh at you.
TBF we told them that we were in charge then and they laughed at us anyway, even after we deployed both carrots and sticks. Generally did not feel like there was much we could do to get them to cooperate.

As for other character agency yes they do indeed, hence my surprise at all the other characters who came with us of ostensibly their own free will.

Around your points on the consequentiality of the choices, whether if you'd chosen differently different things would happen. I suppose that's a complicated one. The first arc was the tutorial arc of my first quest, so I'll simply ask for your indulgence there. Thrall at least was impressed by your shamanistic abilities, so yea your work toward that was consequential, and Feldad also approved of it. Around whether anything would have helped out against Forneus, not really, you chose the Hunted option, you got hunted and your hunter was a relatively sensible person and able to influence other people to help him. I likened this to a lich jumping out from behind a bush and ganking you, so one question you might ask would be whether you could have done anything against such an opponent.
I mean its complicated, but its also...kinda not I suppose.

For example, Thrall was impressed with our shamanistic abilities, but that's cause we've got the sight, which is a rare innate ability he was not impressed with our broken fire septa. Having the sight though is rare, its something shamens usually only start training when they're very old like Drek'thar so unless we actively spurned it I'm not sure there was any way to not at least mildly impress him with that. As for fel dad again I'm pretty sure he was not approving at all when we started, essentially asking us why we were wasting our time.

Not sure why you're likening it to a Lich, tis a death knight ganking us :p and nah again I've never had significant issues with how Forneas was done or hunted was handled, its been done very well. The only people I get annoyed at in that mess is myself for dropping out of the quest and not pointing out the obvious dark shamanism and general "why" for nobody else not noticing the obviously evil shamanism.

I would say primarily with the centralisation of the Horde along human lines. Thrall has his own set of largely ineffective reforms where he tries to pull good stuff over from the human organisations but it doesn't really work, for example the creation of a clanless or clan-neutral Horde bureaucracy. There's also points about how Thrall acts as a leader which I think are reasonable too, but are perhaps less obvious.
Thall is slothful (not as in he's lazy, just that he doesn't act), believes too much in the goodness of people and has too much respect for the culture he was not raised in to really get in dirty to fix the problems.

To note a couple of points on this, it really depends on your attitude toward a variety of factors. For one, is it permissible, either socially or otherwise, to destroy a people? Proudmoore wants to kill them because they killed his son, while the Horde did massive damage to Stromgarde which explains why Trollbane wants to kill them. I think you could certainly say that without the orcs a lot less destruction would have been caused and the peoples of Azeroth (and indeed the Draenei) would have been safer and more prosperous. I think you can also say that Orcish culture and the apparent inability of their leaders to control the destructive impulses of the people in the general 'pass me another elf, this one's split' way means the other races are permitted to destroy them if they think it necessary, it's not like the Orcs haven't had plenty of chances, they just keep provoking. There's various Alliance vs Horde debates but at the heart of all of them is that the Orcs are an alien force of conquerors who completely fail to change over time. Incidentally I've had a question open on the question forum to mods to ask about how much genocide I'm allowed to have in my fics but it's not been answered yet so I'm assuming everything I say on the topic is fine.
I mean I'm still against genocide on principle, but yes I do not want to be able to go "this dick has a point."

Ultimately it feels like at times the only way to resolve this matter is to get strong enough that we can force them to come to terms with how truly toxic a society they've been and smack any backsliders over the head with a haddock.

Cynically, I see the conflict of warcraft even at the questionable moments as a way to keep making money at the cost of making fans unhappy if their side gets it bad which includes warcraft 3 where you spend time in the undead campaign killing the Alliance members you were leading and then corrupting the land.
I mean that is fundamentally what it is. That and presumably lack of writer communication. The depressing part is the orcs don't need to play the part of the always evil faction, WoW has those aplenty and there can be perfectly non-genocidal reasons for the two sides to be in conflict with one another. It doesn't even have to be a "trade federation is imposing a blockade reason." Battle for Azeroth's supposed reason for starting was because both sides felt the other was going to make super weapons out of the new material, that's great.

But then to "up the stakes" I supposed Sylvanus decided to go full genocide on the night elves and burn their big tree to the ground which is just...erugh.

It could have still been a tragic war fueled by misunderstandings, inability to communicate, war-hawks on both sides fanning the flames (and apocalypse threats again) and have no defacto good or bad side to the war...except one side screams burn it down at the home of lets say tens of thousands of people minimum and lights it on fire with them still in it cause drama!

Its a waste, and I don't just mean that in terms of how stupid it is, I would have found them trying to do the story of the occupation of a racial capital to be very interesting, seeing how both sides are approaching this issue, but no.

Grumbles.
 
Thall is slothful (not as in he's lazy, just that he doesn't act), believes too much in the goodness of people and has too much respect for the culture he was not raised in to really get in dirty to fix the problems.
He should've been more proactive but from the example brought up of orcs mutilating night elf prisoners he wasn't able to control the next generation of orcs.
I mean that is fundamentally what it is. That and presumably lack of writer communication. The depressing part is the orcs don't need to play the part of the always evil faction, WoW has those aplenty and there can be perfectly non-genocidal reasons for the two sides to be in conflict with one another. It doesn't even have to be a "trade federation is imposing a blockade reason." Battle for Azeroth's supposed reason for starting was because both sides felt the other was going to make super weapons out of the new material, that's great.

But then to "up the stakes" I supposed Sylvanus decided to go full genocide on the night elves and burn their big tree to the ground which is just...erugh.

It could have still been a tragic war fueled by misunderstandings, inability to communicate, war-hawks on both sides fanning the flames (and apocalypse threats again) and have no defacto good or bad side to the war...except one side screams burn it down at the home of lets say tens of thousands of people minimum and lights it on fire with them still in it cause drama!

Its a waste, and I don't just mean that in terms of how stupid it is, I would have found them trying to do the story of the occupation of a racial capital to be very interesting, seeing how both sides are approaching this issue, but no.

Grumbles.
It's the bread and better of this sort of entertainment.

I have to concede again on the idea of the big punch up for the lead up to the Battle of Azeroth both as a game and a fantasy story. As a game it's two sides fighting so it's natural for a team PVP fight. As a fantasy story, civilisations compete with each other that alliances are made and eventually a war starts.

How that war starts and ends is rather debatable while adding in misunderstandings and bloodthirsty vengeful people on both sides. The worse problem doing that is the players themselves playing either side. How will they take it if their side lost despite all the effort they made toward their accounts?

If you let it flow naturally like a fantasy world war one, I would be very interested in seeing that if only to see how war shocked the orcs would be in getting the war they wanted. There's Eitrigg a disillusioned war veteran but I was looking more of an orc that starts out young and hungry for battle but instead suffers PTSD to eventually despise endless fighting non-stop in a sensible manner.
 
He should've been more proactive but from the example brought up of orcs mutilating night elf prisoners he wasn't able to control the next generation of orcs.
An issue that requires a reorganisation or Orcish society, but is more fundamental than that. Had Thrall more control over the clans and could say met out punishment against this sort of behaviour then it'd be one thing, but he doesn't have that.

Given that its Ashenvale I think we can assume that the orcs responsible were likely warsong a clan that abjectly sees nothing wrong with doing that sort of thing, but the only way Thrall could probably intervene would be to break the warsong's independence, because again they do not see themselves as doing anything wrong.

Which really is the real issue here, its the standards to which we can expect both races to go. Human kingdoms don't have full control over ever noble, and any noble can theoretically go and burninate the countryside and slaughter the peasants, but we expect the orcs to go Vlad the impaler, when a human does it its more horrifying because its abnormal, for the orcs it isn't.

Its **** like that which is why I'm worried about the warband, I do not trust large numbers of orcs to not end up making human suits for a laugh.

How that war starts and ends is rather debatable while adding in misunderstandings and bloodthirsty vengeful people on both sides. The worse problem doing that is the players themselves playing either side. How will they take it if their side lost despite all the effort they made toward their accounts?

If you let it flow naturally like a fantasy world war one, I would be very interested in seeing that if only to see how war shocked the orcs would be in getting the war they wanted. There's Eitrigg a disillusioned war veteran but I was looking more of an orc that starts out young and hungry for battle but instead suffers PTSD to eventually despise endless fighting non-stop in a sensible manner.
It'd make for a good storyline, certainly a heck of a lot better than what we got, and I think its pretty clear blizzard does not give a single **** about what the players feel. Twice now the horde has been both the aggressors and the "losers" of the conflicts, made worse by shoe horning in some other reason for the war to give token redemption to the horde.

And yeah I think if they did the storyline right then people wouldn't care and furthermore you don't necessarily have to have either a winner or a looser. Sure on paper, but wars often don't work like that.
 
Its **** like that which is why I'm worried about the warband, I do not trust large numbers of orcs to not end up making human suits for a laugh.
A dilemma we'll have to decide if it comes to that.
It'd make for a good storyline, certainly a heck of a lot better than what we got, and I think its pretty clear blizzard does not give a single **** about what the players feel. Twice now the horde has been both the aggressors and the "losers" of the conflicts, made worse by shoe horning in some other reason for the war to give token redemption to the horde.

And yeah I think if they did the storyline right then people wouldn't care and furthermore you don't necessarily have to have either a winner or a looser. Sure on paper, but wars often don't work like that.
The horde won the first one. It was the second one they lost so bad their forces were put in internment camps.

If I had to choose an ending for warcraft it would be like this one and it is so apt in describing the players. Wolves among the races of Azeroth who after many years of fighting in a war of attrition put down the sword and go for peace when a third party invades and this time after they beat the third party there's no more fighting for a while just a long year of peace and rebuilding.
 
The horde won the first one. It was the second one they lost so bad their forces were put in internment camps.
Talkin bout the MMO, not the strat games.

If I had to choose an ending for warcraft it would be like this one and it is so apt in describing the players. Wolves among the races of Azeroth who after many years of fighting in a war of attrition put down the sword and go for peace when a third party invades and this time after they beat the third party there's no more fighting for a while just a long year of peace and rebuilding.
Yeah. Could have even had that...multiple times.
 
Which war are you talking of? When Garrosh started his fight ending with his imprisonment and trial before trying again with the Iron Horde?
That and also the 4th war.

Blizzard wants more money so it's more expansions again and again until even the ending is unsatisfactory.
Beat the dead horse until its not even glue anymore.

So says activision-blizzard the shambling horror.
 
Well that's the thing with MMOs the owners think you need to move the metallic along while still preventing the kinds of development and progress that would hinder Player Character behavior.
 
If you wrote a quest about Blackmoore or some random OC Alliance member chancing upon an orc child in a battlefield for a raise an orc child quest, what interesting topics would you explore?
The most obvious thing to write about would be the antebellum. It would be quite easy to map the broad points of the aftermath of bloody wars onto post war Lordaeron. I don't know a massive amount about things like the American Civil War but that would be something there. How does the victorious polity deal with the defeated one? How is damage rebuilt, who contributes to the resource requirements? How does culture change over time? What are other people doing? Can the defeated polity reverse the affair somehow? What requirements does the victor force the defeated polity to accept? In the civil war this was all around slavery and things like that, but there are plenty of other issues you could cover.
Cynically, I see the conflict of warcraft even at the questionable moments as a way to keep making money at the cost of making fans unhappy if their side gets it bad which includes warcraft 3 where you spend time in the undead campaign killing the Alliance members you were leading and then corrupting the land.
Ultimately, yea. Blizz don't really care about writing and are content to make things up and have people buy the product. Lots of the writing doesn't make sense and it's not important to them because the casual part doesn't pay attention. This can be reflected in things like people being surprised Sylvanus was evil and so on.

Also, I got the other bit from that previous quote:

"With the Horde's supplies almost depleted on account of the war with the Lich King and the unusual droughts affecting Orgrimmar, many orcs viewed the night elves' exclusion of the Horde from their trade routes unfairly brutal. He received a letter from King Varian Wrynn demanding to denounce the attacks and turn over any attackers he could find to the Alliance for justice. Thrall refused to turn over violators of the treaty (he had suspected but didn't have proof and it would also hurt orc morale) and also refused to apologize for the thievery of the night elves' goods, the murders, or the brutal methods in which they were performed. Though he did express anger that the treaty had been violated, his unwillingness to publicly reprimand those who use brutal methods to assault Alliance members greatly weakened his popularity with Alliance leaders."

Aww poor orcsies with their hurt morale, don't skin people lol

What's that story about?
So I essentially wanted to write something which looked at the orcs in general, but went back to the originals, those of LotR. Vark (or at least his first iteration as a character) got teleported to LotR and started leading some sort of revolution among the orcs there. Ultimately the level of work rather overwhelmed me but for a first piece of fanfiction I think it holds up pretty well. I was planning to have stuff with Isengard being all industrial and essentially predicted the Iron Horde I'd say.
if I wanted to shaman good we needed to be a Shaman, hence my char proposition at quest start
I mean Angrais is doing fine, she's gone off with Rexxar to wander about somewhere
 
This quest and the overall debate is so much more complicated than the other one, isn't it? (heh, obviously, since the ruthless questers turned the other one into "Mr. Evil". And then it apparently ended up crashing & burning)

You took an action to get better at survival but haven't ever used it really because you've not been out in the middle of nowhere for long, and you've never been to Echo Isles so knowing about plants there is 'wasted'. Except it's not because at that point you were considering going to Echo Isles which you decided not to in the end.
We can not predict 100% what path we will take; the choice made sense at the time, based on the information available.

Ultimately it feels like at times the only way to resolve this matter is to get strong enough that we can force them to come to terms with how truly toxic a society they've been and smack any backsliders over the head with a haddock.
Well, Thrall is kinda trying to do just that. And we could always start a colony somewhere. But we wouldn't be able to brainwash our colonists...
It raises the question: what can change the nature of an Orc Orc society? Adaptability in the face of a crisis, more precisely finding new answers.
 
Lordaeron Turn 2
Lordaeron Turn 2

The battle is over quickly. The undead cannot stand against your warband and your sword sweeps a score aside, the blade burning, your chest and face hot as it cuts through the undead and sending them flying in flaming halves as you cleave a way toward the human village.

For an instant during battle you felt anger. You felt like you weren't just going through the motions of life for the first time in weeks and for a moment you stand amidst the twice-dead, the fire on your sword dying as you search for that feeling, struggling to grasp hold of it before it passes.

"Greetings!"

The exclamation breaks you out of your thoughts and the rage and heat vanishes. Your eyes refocus and you see a human standing before you.

The first thing that strikes you is his age, yet the presence of a strange vitality that seems to strengthen him from within. He is old, grey-bearded, but his eyes are green with a light that seems to twinkle within them and it's clear his body still holds strength. He bears a worn harness of leather and steel along with a great hammer inlaid with silver, while the crest on his surcoat to is silver, a hand of argent on a blue field.

Though you don't know a great deal about them, you know enough to recognise the sigil of the Knights of the Silver Hand, the order of paladins who once served the Alliance before their destruction by the Scourge. Clearly a few of them survived though.

"And to you." you reply, and it's only after you do that you realise the paladin spoke in the Orcish tongue, not the human one. You wonder if you should be surprised but suppose he would have fought during the wars and no doubt picked it up at some point. "I am Grok'mash Fireblade of the Burning Blade clan."

"So I see." the paladin remarks with a look at your sword, "You may call me Mirador." he looks over your warband. "What are so many well-armed orcs doing here? I had not heard we were being invaded!"

There's a sting in his voice but it remains light. The paladin simply looks about, utterly absent any of the tight features of a man expecting to be attacked.

"My purpose is to set myself above the squabbles of the world and against the true enemy of all. The Scourge are the servants of the Burning Legion and the demons have much to answer for the injuries and betrayals they've perpetrated against my people." you answer, "These others have followed me and I intend to aid the Scarlet Crusade in their war." Is this knight one of the Crusade? It seemed probably but you didn't know what sort of banner they flew.

Mirador's eyebrow rises minutely as he looks at you, a faint smile on his face. "I see." he remarks, "Well you'll not lack for employment here. If I may ask, what do you intend to do with them?" he asks, nodding to some of the undead your warriors have captured.

"We take them for study, I would know what I've come to fight."

"If you have such desires head west." Mirador instructs, "The people here call it the 'Nightmare Vale' and it's a well-earned name. But for now I ask you to leave them to their rest, such disrespect to the dead is… distasteful to us."

That was reasonable enough and you thank the man, it was only courteous after all and you weren't looking to offend them. "Very well." and you give the order, the undead prisoners being held by the others swiftly given the mercy of the axe.

While the paladin seems at ease, you see a few faces poking over the barricade and decide to leave before you further scare the villagers. After all, trading a horde of undead for a company of orcs wasn't a good deal. "As I said, we've come to fight with the Scarlet Crusade, if you know of them or their whereabouts we'd be grateful."

Mirador nods and you inform him of your garrison of Cold Hearth Manor and he in turn replies that it isn't likely to be long before one of the Crusaders seeks you out, but you speak briefly on the matter before he turns away, a small gate opening in the palisade before closing quickly as soon as he's inside.

"That went well." Scorn remarks as the warband heads away.

"If we'd had other intentions I doubt he could have stopped us, diplomacy was the natural option for him." Sorek replies

Scorn grunts. "He didn't seem surprised though."

You'd noticed that as well. Through the whole interaction the paladin had seemed open and untroubled, even when surrounded by a hundred hulking orcs, "Their paladins are akin to our shaman, perhaps his Light has shown him something?" The comparison wasn't entirely correct but from what you understood it was close enough, the paladins were spiritually strong warriors, calling upon power through the manifestation of the Light, an elemental force not unlike the Trolls' Loa, or so someone had explained it to you in any case. It was possible they were more akin to blademasters than shaman, but such categorisations simply complicated matters. With that thought you glance over at Ishi.

The blademaster had been looking at the paladin with interest during the discussion. You wonder if he fought any of them during the First or Second War? Probably, but at least he's not leaping out to attack the warrior. It was a good thing it was Ishi beside you rather than his comrade, the later's Fel-tainted skin and burning eyes would likely arouse suspicion from any human wielding the Light.

Speaking of which, "Where's Sesk?" you ask, turning to Ishi.

"Orders." the blademaster shrugs.

You look at him with a frown. You know the blademasters had been sent as bodyguards, and given your father's love of intrigues perhaps you shouldn't be so surprised they had some ulterior purpose. What could Sesk be up to? When you consider it you haven't actually seen the blademaster for several weeks.

"Are you going to tell me more?"

Ishi inclines his head, "Only if it comes up." he replies, "'Orders'."

You feel a vague frustration but you realise you can't do anything about it and move on, there are other matters to attend to.

You can do write ins for any category. You can also vote for actions individually rather than in plans, or you can vote in plans if you want. The normal policies apply including plans without reasoning being ignored. I've shuffled the geography of Tirasfal a bit but most stuff still applies. Ask me if unsure.

Choose 7 actions. At least 2 action have to be from your Warband, but you can take additional time to take more Warband actions if you decide to.

The Warband

These actions relate to the activities of your warband.

[ ] The Nightmare Vale
The woods to the west seem particularly dark. Take your warband and search out whatever evil lies within.

[ ] Silverpine Forest
The woods to the south by comparison seem less malevolent than those here in Tirasfel Glades, journey there instead, perhaps survivors remain?

[ ] Fortify
Supervise the fortification of the Manor, build a palisade around the outbuildings and contain the place behind defences. It won't keep out anything particularly strong but it's a quick solution.

[ ] Survey
You're father's given you a collection of new members of the clan, survey and interview them to see if any might have particular skills.

[ ] Patrol
Accompany your warriors on patrol around the Manor.

[ ] Training the Warband
There are a number of different competencies among your warriors, see if you might spread these among the others to increase the general level of skill of your band. Indicate if you want to train particular people or particular skills.

Tirasfel Glades
These actions relate to specific areas around your current location.

[ ] Cold Hearth Manor
Explore the estate and grounds.

[ ] Brill
Take your company and head to Brill, the largest settlement of the province apart from the Undercity. This will be an essentially diplomatic mission as you expect to find people there, though who they might be you don't know.

[ ] Undercity
Apparently shrouded in green fog, the capital of the Forsaken is still worth a visit, take a small party and head there to see what may be seen.

[ ] The Scarlet Crusade
The Paladin indicated that the Scarlet Crusade have an outpost nearby, head there to introduce yourselves.

[ ] The Village
The Paladin you met indicated that the undead congregate at any villages on a regular basis, see if they need any further help and speak with the warrior again.

Training
It's important for a warrior to keep themselves well trained at all times.

[ ] Tactics
You're good with a sword but you know there's more to victory than the ability to swing a weapon.

[ ] Stealth
The Shattered Hand are known to be a dishonourable lot, striking from the shadows and using poison and though you don't intend to adopt their methods you might at least learn them.

[ ] Scholarship
Make use of what resources you can to learn, particularly the papers you took from the Kul Tirans, as well as anything you can find in the Manor.

[ ] Shadow Magic
While you don't expect to learn the necrolyte's arts immediately, you decide to speak to Keldran to understand more of what his magic actually is.

Personal actions
These actions relate to activities you take for your own benefit, or to improve yourself.

[ ] Recovery
You remain weaker than you might like from your injuries, and haven't yet worked off the stiffness. Take some time to get yourself back to full capacity. Unlocks physical conditioning training and combat training options.

[ ] Meditation
Sit in contemplation.

[ ] The Fireblade
You were able to ignite your father's sword and felt a whisper of rage as you did, cutting through the undead horde like a whirlwind. Examine the weapon further.

[ ] Socialise with someone
While you speak with various people frequently, your conversations are often on practical subjects rather than a more social talk, take the time to talk to someone in more depth. Write in the person and any particular subjects you want to cover.
 
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