Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)
- Thread starter FractiousDay
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So I'll try and answer some of the broader points rather than just quoting everyone to death.
The warband is large
Not really. This is the standard size of an independent warband in hostile territory and what would be appropriate for a captain to command. A clan chief or general might have several captains commanding such bands who do various things, and this is the IRL basic administrative and tactical unit, this is what one person can reasonably command without significant help. On the point that the Blademasters are enough, they're bodyguards, not soldiers.
Why does Grok get a warband in the first place?
So here I'll admit to a misstep on my part about being explicit on what resources you'd have access to. I did ask people for comments on what and who to bring, but I didn't specifically mention you'd be getting a command. Here the logic is that you're a young officer and more specifically a clan heir, it's not seemly for such a person to wander off on their own without a retinue because that reflects badly on the clan. Similarly you have to learn to command which is why you've been given your first two forces to get Darkstorm and then to take to Dreadmist. The choice of the Scarlet Crusade made me assume you wanted to actually help out, rather than turn up with like 5 guys, as such Grok internally and me externally got the warband together so you could do all the things mentioned above and also have chance to do military things independently if you want. For example at some point you'll probably be visiting Alterac. Remember that you're going to war, therefore you brought warriors, just like with the Broken Isles choice you started talking about a colony, therefore you'd bring colonists.
What will the warband be doing?
Whatever you want. If you want to be leading it in action then you'll be able to use it to take ground from the Scourge, or to push into Alterac given canonically there's various people about there including the Syndicate and some ogres this would be necessary. If though you want to just send it off and occasionally join attacks that's fine too, other people are capable of handling it and you can be hands off, they're not going to go mad and start attacking people randomly. Recalling chargen, you're in the leadership strata, there are obligations.
The warband's constitution
You've got 50/20/30 currently between BB guys, aspirants and then random people. The second are mostly Blackrock, the later are a mix. The BB has been taking on more recruits due to recent events, and I don't think I've ever given a specific indication of how many BB there are. With the later, yes they've left their clan for some reason, sometimes this is crime, but that was Scorn's situation as well when you picked him up and he's been fine. The constitution also represents the agency of others, including the aspirants who've been mentioned before, they came to fight Darkstorm with you and Sorek organised them during your trial to heckle, therefore they're interested in coming along as well. Similarly the vagabonds have been integrating into the BB and now want to join you etc.
The warband is narratively inappropriate
I don't necessarily disagree with this one. Yes you got exiled but instead of being kicked out completely you were embraced by the BB, as such they support you. As per the narrative, Thrall was trying a thing, you took responsibility, he went with that after taking advice to try and salvage his strategy. You did after all board the zepplin under cover of darkness, this is clandestine, it's not just ignoring the exile. As above, I don't think it would be reasonable for you to go off without such a force, but I'm also still open to reducing it if necessary and preferable.
We're doing the actions already, and further notes on action economy
Normally you have 6 actions for 6 weeks. Here you've got 3 weeks left in which you'll concentrate on one thing, rather than spreading your time as usual. None of these things aren't being done, nor is this concentration to the exclusion of other things, but this is the potential to do choose one activity on the voyage. Indeed, you're not going to stop your physio because you're learning a language, and the warband are moderately organised at the moment, just not cohesively so. Similarly yes you've been talking to your friends a bit but you might want to talk some more to them about some other stuff like a specific thing they mentioned.
And generally on tone
I really didn't expect this to be as controversial as it was. The options were a way to provide flavour, focus a bit, that sort of thing, not the previously mentioned 'which dooms us the least'. I also didn't intend the warband to be 'oh no an action sink/mental weight', it's meant to allow you to go about and do stuff if you want to. If you like I can just say that the warband aren't going to cause problems, they'll just be less efficient than you might want for a bit until you sort them out? It's certainly not my intention to have one of them try to nick the Ashbringer or something.
Mechanics of skill loss
I mentioned this way back in the OP, I've considered it further and haven't really progressed. I think you should lose skills over time that you don't use, but equally I can see how that would be frustrating, so I'll probably not end up doing it.
Action economy in this case
Wombat's point on language learning is reasonable, but consider what sort of ways people learn a language. When I was younger we did french at school for perhaps 2 hours a week. Didn't learn much of course, but apparently emersing yourself in a language is faster. The language learning option here would represent doing language stuff all day, as much as is possible, looking over documents like that stuff you got from the Kul Tirans, talking to Kartha in the new language, that sort of thing, this isn't Grok doing 2 hours of class a week.
The warband is large
Not really. This is the standard size of an independent warband in hostile territory and what would be appropriate for a captain to command. A clan chief or general might have several captains commanding such bands who do various things, and this is the IRL basic administrative and tactical unit, this is what one person can reasonably command without significant help. On the point that the Blademasters are enough, they're bodyguards, not soldiers.
Why does Grok get a warband in the first place?
So here I'll admit to a misstep on my part about being explicit on what resources you'd have access to. I did ask people for comments on what and who to bring, but I didn't specifically mention you'd be getting a command. Here the logic is that you're a young officer and more specifically a clan heir, it's not seemly for such a person to wander off on their own without a retinue because that reflects badly on the clan. Similarly you have to learn to command which is why you've been given your first two forces to get Darkstorm and then to take to Dreadmist. The choice of the Scarlet Crusade made me assume you wanted to actually help out, rather than turn up with like 5 guys, as such Grok internally and me externally got the warband together so you could do all the things mentioned above and also have chance to do military things independently if you want. For example at some point you'll probably be visiting Alterac. Remember that you're going to war, therefore you brought warriors, just like with the Broken Isles choice you started talking about a colony, therefore you'd bring colonists.
What will the warband be doing?
Whatever you want. If you want to be leading it in action then you'll be able to use it to take ground from the Scourge, or to push into Alterac given canonically there's various people about there including the Syndicate and some ogres this would be necessary. If though you want to just send it off and occasionally join attacks that's fine too, other people are capable of handling it and you can be hands off, they're not going to go mad and start attacking people randomly. Recalling chargen, you're in the leadership strata, there are obligations.
The warband's constitution
You've got 50/20/30 currently between BB guys, aspirants and then random people. The second are mostly Blackrock, the later are a mix. The BB has been taking on more recruits due to recent events, and I don't think I've ever given a specific indication of how many BB there are. With the later, yes they've left their clan for some reason, sometimes this is crime, but that was Scorn's situation as well when you picked him up and he's been fine. The constitution also represents the agency of others, including the aspirants who've been mentioned before, they came to fight Darkstorm with you and Sorek organised them during your trial to heckle, therefore they're interested in coming along as well. Similarly the vagabonds have been integrating into the BB and now want to join you etc.
The warband is narratively inappropriate
I don't necessarily disagree with this one. Yes you got exiled but instead of being kicked out completely you were embraced by the BB, as such they support you. As per the narrative, Thrall was trying a thing, you took responsibility, he went with that after taking advice to try and salvage his strategy. You did after all board the zepplin under cover of darkness, this is clandestine, it's not just ignoring the exile. As above, I don't think it would be reasonable for you to go off without such a force, but I'm also still open to reducing it if necessary and preferable.
We're doing the actions already, and further notes on action economy
Normally you have 6 actions for 6 weeks. Here you've got 3 weeks left in which you'll concentrate on one thing, rather than spreading your time as usual. None of these things aren't being done, nor is this concentration to the exclusion of other things, but this is the potential to do choose one activity on the voyage. Indeed, you're not going to stop your physio because you're learning a language, and the warband are moderately organised at the moment, just not cohesively so. Similarly yes you've been talking to your friends a bit but you might want to talk some more to them about some other stuff like a specific thing they mentioned.
And generally on tone
I really didn't expect this to be as controversial as it was. The options were a way to provide flavour, focus a bit, that sort of thing, not the previously mentioned 'which dooms us the least'. I also didn't intend the warband to be 'oh no an action sink/mental weight', it's meant to allow you to go about and do stuff if you want to. If you like I can just say that the warband aren't going to cause problems, they'll just be less efficient than you might want for a bit until you sort them out? It's certainly not my intention to have one of them try to nick the Ashbringer or something.
Mechanics of skill loss
I mentioned this way back in the OP, I've considered it further and haven't really progressed. I think you should lose skills over time that you don't use, but equally I can see how that would be frustrating, so I'll probably not end up doing it.
Action economy in this case
Wombat's point on language learning is reasonable, but consider what sort of ways people learn a language. When I was younger we did french at school for perhaps 2 hours a week. Didn't learn much of course, but apparently emersing yourself in a language is faster. The language learning option here would represent doing language stuff all day, as much as is possible, looking over documents like that stuff you got from the Kul Tirans, talking to Kartha in the new language, that sort of thing, this isn't Grok doing 2 hours of class a week.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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I admit this is probably part of the narrative dissonance. Its the same reason I have a hard time taking the scale of 40K seriously at times, its all very well to talk up the size of armies in games, but they never deliver in terms of actual numbers. WCIII suffers from it as much as WoW the MMO, although WoW the MMO is worse because the maximum size for anything in that game was 40 people once.
While I get that its a technical limitation, it still impacts how I see the game.
Yeah see that's the thing.
I cannot see that happening, because
1. Orcs have proven time and again they cannot be trusted on this.
2. On the rare occassion they have proven trust worthy some other horde dipshit comes in and ruins it (Forsaken anyone?)
3. And then assuming the first two don't happen the alliance ruins it.
Yes I know that's crap blizzard writing, but even setting that aside there are far too many reasons for this to happen for entirely "legitimate"* reasons due to the events of the first and second war
*Well somewhat from the human side generally not from the Orc side see 14 ways to skin a dwarf again.
NP
At the moment if we're at where we should be Gartharios is long dead and eaten and the Forsaken have secured the undercity and Brill, with the Scarlet Monastery and mindless scourge being the only thnigs here. Grok has interacted with Forsaken in the past and should be able to tell that the undead not groaning and head butting walls are probably them.
Gartharios isn't, but he's representative of the attitudes that screwed the canon Crusade over.
And again that doesn't feel at all viable to arrive and then be sitting around for six weeks. If nothing else its just weird as hell.
Man the Kolkar sure as heck ain't a threat if a single horde warband is 1/10th of their entire tribe. I'm being somewhat facetious, but still the point must be made.
100 people is 100 people, we've effectively been made a lieutenant-colonel in the American military structure, which as I'm led to understand is not something people get to without at least some proper training, even back in the days where you could buy a military command (it actually could get you into a heck of a lot of trouble, the payment was seen less as a bribe, more as a "I am this confident I can command at this level" if you were wrong there were consequences.)
Grok is many things, but ready for that level of command? There is a reason he was in command of a group 10 last time, and even then all of them ended up dead (bar one) before everything went to hell and he failed utterly at getting them to follow him via anything else other than fear.
It is a bit of a thing to over look, and connecting to the above if Feldad felt that it'd reflect badly on the clan and wanted to teach him command perhaps don't increase the responsibilities by a literal factor of 10.
...
No the impression I got was that at most we were going to join an army, not be an army allied with it or an army just in the same bloody region! Furthermore while talked about above WoW is a setting where I hear five man group and go "yeah that take out Scholemance assuming they know their shit." That's the setting WoW's got its not necessarily very sensible, but it is consistent if nothing else considering five people canonically took out the Scarlet Monastery around 4 times in 4 years and for blanace reasons those guys ain't even the strongest people in the setting.
So forgive me I assumed that I did want to actually help out and that we could do that with a small group earning the trust of the Scarlet Crusade rather than turning up with over 100 people and necromancer warlock.
This impression was only reinforced by the fact we're going to be fighting the Scourge a faction that is insanely vulnerable to head capping where the optimal force is a small elite group to minimise the Scourge's many strengths is preferable compared to an army which emphasises them.*
*The only one we can never be rid of is they have the numbers advantage, but that's not an excuse to let them compound it, while also ceeding them the mobility and every bit of the endurance.
And I was operating on the basis of "I am going to war I am a warrior" because you gave us no indication that this was a possibility nor that Grok would think of or be able to do.
That this would be a personal thing for Grok and that part of this ark was going to be him learning to live with not being the clan heir currently, even if he's still considered it defacto as a consequence of his actions.
I'm not afraid of them going mad (well I am, a bit dangle power in front of an orc 9/10 they'll take it and not think about the consequences till they're rooting around a civilian's rib cage) I'm afraid of racism on both sides causing an international incident.
14 ways to skin a dwarf anyone? Give me a minute I'm sure I can find something equivalent for humans, like say bloodwine distinct taste of blood tend to have a lot of it during the first and second wars after battles with humans, Orcish favourite round a campfire apparently.
And there's the vaguely threatening things I mentioned earlier, yes we're in the leadership strata of a faction we just got booted out of. Furthermore it doesn't feel like the obligations flow both ways at all, since we have to spend a lot of time on these chuckle nuts I'd rather spend on other things like actually getting strong enough to survive this hellworld.
I think at one point you mentioned that of the "on books" clan around 1/3rd was at Dreadmist.
Honestly, that just makes it look worse for Feldad.
Trying to hide it means intent to hide it.
And the thing is, I do like this in theory.
Because it teaches a valuable lesson, if we want to actually get shit done we need to focus on things.
However I am very certain that is not the lesson you're intending to send.
None of which was communicated, when you say pick one and then say something like
I might be wrong but a dysfunctional unit that coordinates badly is not moderately organised!
Or if it is by horde standards then FFS how the hell does the horde keep existing!
I am not afraid of them trying to nick the ashbringer, I am afraid of them because
1. Many orcs are out right proud of their actions in the first and second wars.
2. Many humans hate the orcs for their actions in the first and second wars.
3. Many orcs also hate humans for the concentration camps.
It is not helped by half of them being members of the burning blade, one of the most blood thirsty clans of those wars, and for the most part one of the least self reflective about all the aweful shit they did and amongst the most likely to ****ing brag about it! Akinos I imagine got helped through the realisation of "holy shit I'm a monster" by Varok, but feldad sure as shit had no such realisation and given the clan's still current loyalties (fingers crossed not for much longer) I imagine the same can be said of the rest.
Grok is not too connected to that and in a small band I can see him making sure that nobody more hot blooded (like Varak) doesn't explode, he can't do that for 100 people.
In essence I'm not predicting doom because they're here that's just weird and unexpected, what my deal is that the practical lore of the setting the core of the universe in essence is yelling "shits gonna go down" between the humans and the orcs. It may not cause an international incident, but for us it could well be Forneas 2.0 a massive diaster that screws over all our plans.
I think common sense is the way to go. Like I can make the point that Grok wasn't unconscious long enough for muscle atrophy from immobility to set in for humans unless he was old (10-47 days, for a human he'd be closer to the 47), however, he's certainly going to be weakened. Just not enough.
Loose an arm, or be knocked unconcious for multiple months that's another matter.
2 hours a week?
Bluntly they weren't trying to teach you the language and I didn't even have significantly more, but there is a big difference between 5 hours + home works.
Anyway can only speak from experience that it it is significantly faster, which ain't exactly a citation. Speaking from experience again though just focusing on it isn't liable to be effective for much more than rote memorization of vocab, but if that's how you want to do it then we're going for the best option on an objective basis as well as one of the best ones on a practical basis.
Anyway, Fractiousday I'll be blunt, you've got a problem I already brought it up ages ago now, but again the problem remains, you have to actually tell us what is going on so we can make an informed decision!
As far as I can tell singular option that was approached with the intent of taking more than a handful of people when choosing where to go, was the Isles and that was after one of us suggested a colony because there an indicator that that more than that was on the table!
For heavens sakes I feel like idiot just for some of my arguments to @Jasten now! Specifically called out that it was a silly idea to create a colony with a few peons and a couple people that fel dad could spare, my argument would have looked entirely fucking different I'd known that not only could fel dad give us an army, but would have given us more for that colony idea!
This shit as consequences on our decision making and it makes playing the game so much harder!
I will admit I gave those ideas of how the warband can screw us over from existing, because you've proven you know about this stuff and remember it, so I am 110% expecting you to use it against us to hammer home your message, that's why approach them from an aspect of absolute paranoia, because a thing which has extremely dangerous implications and consequences scribbled all over it, suddenly dropped on our heads without asking or indication.
I guess I'm treating you a lot a hostile GM, but if we are not informed about basic facts about the next arc what else am I meant to do but sit back and wait for the next bomb shell to drop because I was too stupid to not peer through implication woven layers of your prose!
To clarify this is meant as critique, but I also think it really does need to be put out there as plainly as I can muster which I fear is this.
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So this isn't correct, you took about 40 to the Darkstorm battle, a mix of trolls, a couple of Warsong, some of Sorek's friends, all of which you got through networking basically but with the main part being the BB infantry, then you took 50 to Dreadmist, composed of BB+Darkstorm's deserters. At Dreadmist you commanded about 130 people, with the elder warlocks obviously counting for more than just their numbers. Now you've got 100, that's not that great of a difference. Similarly regarding how orcs acquire command experience, Feldad says
"Blood this band of yours, I will leave you some of our clan warriors, use them as well and gain accolades and trophies.
Which you succeeded at, you had 1 battle against the Kolkar which went fine and you led it sensibly, then you did Dreadmist, which again you led as best you could, and ultimately it must be said, achieved your objective. Akinos notes regarding training
"I was never trained as you'd call it. In Stormwind they train knights and officers for years and then send them out, sometimes with no actual experience. When I was growing up they sent me to the Blackrock and I led their bands against the Ogres, that was my training and I made many mistakes."
So again it's not like Grok is going to ROTC, it's pretty hands on stuff. You have tactical skill which Feldad knows about, you have limited leadership experience but have skilled people to advise you, and you're the heir of a clan so it's appropriate that you've got that many people. Each time you've commanded there's been a core of BB clansmen/orcs who are reliable and loyal to you, just like it is now.
Regarding dysfunctional units vs moderate organisation, yes agreed, so perhaps poor word choice, but this doesn't mean the individual parts will necessarily be ineffective, just that they will not function as a single cohesive and reliable whole without a bit of work. For example the BB won't charge without orders but the aspirants might because they're pretty impetuous. Furthermore they're coming from different clans, such as the aspirants being mainly blackrock. One thing which might happen could be a conflict or orders between you (their overall commander) and Sorek (their day to day officer). This sort of thing happens plenty of times irl, for example I recall that in the rehersal for D-day one of the things they realised was that the British and American ships were using different radio frequencies so when the British said 'watch out for that uboat' no one heard them. Both forces were very well organised but as a whole they were dysfunctional and the rehearsal went poorly and like 700 people were killed. It happened again in the Korean War when the British said 'oh we're having a bit of trouble' which was classical British understatement and therefore no one bothered to reinforce them when actually they meant 'help now plz we are surrounded'
I don't recall but possibly, I may have meant it as numbers as you say, or possibly as 'power' generally if I said something like 'a third of their forces' in which case the elder warlocks would have counted for more
So firstly thanks for the compliment there about prose
I will certainly hammer players with stuff that is explicitly stated in text and should be noted but isn't, thus the Dark Shamanism when Angrais told you 'treat the elements with respect' and you said 'ok ill got kidnap and enslave one'. I'm entirely unapologetic about that, playing quests does indeed require a modicum of concentration and engagement with the narrative.
I would say though that you in particular take an extremely paranoid view of particular things in the quest. Sometimes this is indeed justified, I think readers caution around Feldad is fine, especially when he was first introduced as a hostile character, but other times it can impede just getting on with the quest. For example, yes you've got a necrolyte in the force but no he's not going to start summoning undead in sight of Scarlet people, he's there to study shadow magic. Your points about the suspicion the Scarlets will have toward the orcs are also justified, but the orcs aren't going to start singing the 14 ways song around dwarves they meet.
On the warband's inclusion specifically, I suppose I didn't really see a reason why it wouldn't be included. Feldad has always been characterised as protective but overbearing, you've just become heir and require a command suitable for that and it reflects badly on the BB if their heir gets sent off on their own. Yes you got exiled, no Feldad doesn't care much more than hiding it from Thrall, so he's happy to send troops with you. You've always been able to call on clan resources, see the above notes on the forces you've taken to battle previously. Since you returned to Orgrimmar it's never just been you and some friends, there's always been the BB presence because you're the clan heir, one day you're going to command.
In general, my bad, I could have been more specific and explicit about what would be included and the process that got you the warband, and I'm planning to write up an arc reflections infopost at some point with the changes I'll be making (eg writing a dramatis personae).
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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Fair enough, however my personal view is still that 3 battles are not exactly enough proof of that. More that our "debatable" success at dread mist is making people far too confident in Grok (lets not even get into how getting exiled is about as far away from accoldes as one can get
)I wasn't arguing about their effectiveness as fighters, I personally doubt that as a matter of course and I assumed that getting them to the point of being able to work together was part of getting them to a reasnoable state. My issue has always been of unit discipline and how that will impact on Grok out of at least wanting the arc to be derailed by enemy action.
I'm not asking you to be apologetic, however
Yes it is why I am paranoid. I wasn't around to yell about the dark shamanism thing and it screwed us over down the line because I let myself drop out of the quest so didn't point out what was not a hidden thing at all, in that case it was rather obvious hindsight or no. Hence my paranoia about being given 100 soldiers, because at least here it tends to be that there's always a sting in the tail for being given something and often enough options are taken without proper consideration.
Anyhow, paranoia becomes unjustified when it is unfounded, but these things are not. No I'm not assuming the Necrolyte will start summoning the undead in front of the Crusaders, but the Crusaders do have many veterans of the First and Second War amongst them, people who may have met Natalie Seline to know of her studies, or fought them enough to recognize him as one. This is not something we have control over its just a possibility we need to consider now that he's tagging along. Furthermore not only are my suspicions justified the Orcs as a culture have given me no reason to not assume the worst of what they would do having met a few dwarfs. The main barrier to action on that is the hope that they know as little of Orcish as most orcs do of common, but that won't always be the case and you do not need to understand exactly what a person is saying to pick up the gist of it from their demeanour or attitude.
This goes both ways too. While arguably more justifiable in many situations the humans sure as heck carry old grudges, hence why Tirion and Etrig was such a big deal and I can point to Theramore as an example. Jania might be friends with Thrall, but a lot of her people still want to stir shit with the horde.
TLDR: Yes I'm very paranoid about these things, I have to be when the dice want to **** us, there are mines scattered through out the text that can also **** us and we've not got enough time to do even a fraction of what we need to do to not die.
Overbearing certainly, protective is a much more recent thing from when we started "winning son." Furthermore as I've already said he's brow beat a pair of ornery murderous blade masters into body guarding us, I think that more than covers his over protective dad side...well that and encouraging grok to do drugs.
In any case calling on clan resources for a battle we were sent to fight is one thing, being able to call on clan resources for doing our own thing is another matter. Again this is obligation not really going both ways, we've had obligation to the burning blade, but even when we're supposedly being given things back that's just more obligation worse at a time where I assumed our only obligation to the clan was going to be "just don't die" and personally was kinda looking forward to that comparative level of freedom. Had we an opportunity to select a war band that'd be one thing, then I'd certainly have no right to complain, but that ain't what happened.
As far as some in the clan are concerned literally over their dead bodies, but hey ho. And while I'm sure some BB were hanging around him, there is still a difference between some people/watchers and a street clearing amount of bodies.
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Vote seems to be pretty well established, will close it tomorrow and start writing
He did. Assume his boyz got backstabbed by Sylvannas.
I find Doomed Wombat's worries too awfully pessimistic seeing how the character's received in the post battle. Some things could be done better but I doubt anyone expected a cataclysmic proportion of fighting.
If your plans have it, more will be had fighting the undead in Lordaeron and politicking. I'm not sure about the other options if they won and the character goes there instead.
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Addressed primarily to Doomed Wombat (an apt name perhaps), regarding comparisons of current warband to modern military organizational structure as reasonable metric of comparison
This isn't a modern military with our sophisticated administration, bureaucracy, and logistical overhead + increasing tooth to tail ratios. In a band of 100 combatants, we have no kill chains to manage the coordination of, nor communication/implementation/drilling of small unit tactics more complex than feigned retreat or staggered advance/deployment in a typical combat scenario (though considering we're going up against the Scourge, perhaps would not be remiss to drill more advanced strategems, something to look into). Comparing the burden of command to that of an American Lt. Col is not accurate for the org level (though WoW plays fast and loose with military organization), far more suitable would be an O-3, a Captain in the American Army/AF/Marine Corp. With how the Horde's set up, a reasonable CoC would look something like 10 units of 10 each led by a sergeant (and I use the term loosely, modern conception of sergeants didn't exist until roughly after gunpowder took over armies and armies increased in size and became permanent standing armies), with each individual tracking their own logistical situation to the best of their ability with oversight by the band of "officers" in charge, with overall command falling to the "Captain," in this case the Burning Blade Clan Heir, Grok'mash. Sorek is stated as being day to day officer, by which I assume he is basically 2nd in command.
Vastly overestimate the difficulty of command given the tech level and political/social organization. Routes of march, time management, tools and supplies for repair of armaments and medicines, camping materials, and other items of interest could be managed by designated individuals, with additional duties being assigned as needed to whomever is needed to do them. Grok'mash comes from a military tradition, raised on the stories of fellow warriors and campaign veterans, and has been on campaign now following the Kolkar katastrophe, albeit for a short amount of time relatively speaking. Good points have been raised, but I'm a little bothered by the constant paranoia, which seems to me in this instance to be downplaying both the capabilities of our lads, and indeed of our commander, in ways which, to my perception, amount to "if we do not remind ourselves and them how to breath, we will all asphyxiate and die" style of thinking.
This isn't a modern military with our sophisticated administration, bureaucracy, and logistical overhead + increasing tooth to tail ratios. In a band of 100 combatants, we have no kill chains to manage the coordination of, nor communication/implementation/drilling of small unit tactics more complex than feigned retreat or staggered advance/deployment in a typical combat scenario (though considering we're going up against the Scourge, perhaps would not be remiss to drill more advanced strategems, something to look into). Comparing the burden of command to that of an American Lt. Col is not accurate for the org level (though WoW plays fast and loose with military organization), far more suitable would be an O-3, a Captain in the American Army/AF/Marine Corp. With how the Horde's set up, a reasonable CoC would look something like 10 units of 10 each led by a sergeant (and I use the term loosely, modern conception of sergeants didn't exist until roughly after gunpowder took over armies and armies increased in size and became permanent standing armies), with each individual tracking their own logistical situation to the best of their ability with oversight by the band of "officers" in charge, with overall command falling to the "Captain," in this case the Burning Blade Clan Heir, Grok'mash. Sorek is stated as being day to day officer, by which I assume he is basically 2nd in command.
Vastly overestimate the difficulty of command given the tech level and political/social organization. Routes of march, time management, tools and supplies for repair of armaments and medicines, camping materials, and other items of interest could be managed by designated individuals, with additional duties being assigned as needed to whomever is needed to do them. Grok'mash comes from a military tradition, raised on the stories of fellow warriors and campaign veterans, and has been on campaign now following the Kolkar katastrophe, albeit for a short amount of time relatively speaking. Good points have been raised, but I'm a little bothered by the constant paranoia, which seems to me in this instance to be downplaying both the capabilities of our lads, and indeed of our commander, in ways which, to my perception, amount to "if we do not remind ourselves and them how to breath, we will all asphyxiate and die" style of thinking.
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So I was thinking in terms of themes this was your military/diplomacy option. Merchant coast was diplomacy/intrigue, broken isles research/base building, desolace military/intrigue, barrens military only. Or there abouts. This obviously doesn't prevent other themes from coming in but those might be the main things you'd be looking to doing
These are interesting. Indeed there would be fewer complexities, but equally the horde's simplicity is build on the clan systems, almost everyone is a hunter so hunting is a known comparator, officers are automatically selected but can also be challenged. You can't duel your Lt for command in a modern military. Also though inter clan cooperation is more complicated whereas with bigger units you're likely to be cooperating within a division etc in a modern military and broadly there's more standardisation
Doomed Wombat
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Bit of a trauma conga line for them.
1. Lorderan destroyed.
2. Mind controlled by Demon
3. Work with Sylvanus
4. Then presumably killed by her.
They were asshats, or at least the upper management was, but still.
Good thing they couldn't make new ones at the time.
I see that more as a combination of people being distracted/relief on the part of Feldad. I will admit had Proudpeek not turned up we'd have come out of Dreadmist in pretty decent form, but at the same time there are only two people who can account for Grok's performance at that battle.
Thank you, I try to at least be self aware. Also interesting stuff as I admit to knowing comparatively little about modern militaries.
Anyhow, the issue is I'd much rather have that level of control over them, as simply put the reason that system worked for the time was because it required comparatively little oversight, leaving the soldiers to basically go off and do whatever they wanted most of the time. There's a reason an army with discipline on and off the battlefield was seen as the sign of an extremely good commander, because it was also incredibly rare. It was also the reason that most people were afraid of soldiers during those times as there were generally few to no consequences for them going off and doing their own thing, when it wasn't encouraged.
It feeds into the main source of my paranoia see below.
Hey them breathing is the problem, they take that breathing and use it to talk
But again I'm not worried about their competence as fighters, I'm unsure how useful they'll be against the scourge, but I'll say that about any military force that leaves behind corpses. I'm worried about the impacts of the culture clash/history and the effects managing them has on our time.
I am a paranoid person in general and especially when I feel there are a lot of things to be paranoid about. This is a quest which incentivises looking at these things for implications so even when they're not intended to be like that there are things which make me extremely paranoid. Was this Fractiousday's intent here, I've gotten the impression no, but the thrust of my paranoia with the warband is not wrong either.
The way I'm seeing it is every clan is their own self-contained regiment equivalent. There are broad lines of similarity on base levels, but things rapidly begin to markedly diverge from tactics, to fighting styles to communications etc.
Theoretically, it works to create a cohesive whole, i.e. Blackrock footmen, Warsong riders etc. but well we ain't got that.
In theory again we've got potentially a very elite force just from the attempting blademasters, but still...
I remember a debate about the broken isles. I don't think it's a good idea to enter the tomb that Guldan died in but finding out what happened to the remaining Stormreavers would be ok as the objective.
New ones of what? More asshats?
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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Forsaken.
Currently I believe they're stuck with the pop they've got, its when Sylvanus contracts the Valkyre that changes.
Yeah all that starts after the Lich King's dead.
Doomed Wombat
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Grumbles in dislike for how they've taken Sylvanus.
Grumbles in general for where they've taken the story since cata...grumbles that some bits were OK.
It's all downhill from there when they went with an online game.
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Not entirely correct, there's stuff about sylvanus trying to acquire necromancers to raise more and varimathras helping out, but yes the valkyr are more helpful
It does explain how forsaken players start from level 1 at vanilla WoW.
This does raise the question of the path to power for the orcs. Many times fel was the main solution to previous campaigns until Grom killed Mannoroth to end the blood ritual.
@FractiousDay as a theoretical, repeating the blood ritual is possible with another ancient being like a dragon?
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At the very least we have the Orc Necromancer/Necrolyte with us. So we can see if he could pick up a few apprentices to start growing out available friendly magic users.
I'm not sure how FD is doing the forsaken rising/breaking free of the Scourge, but we could likely find some scattered groups of unaffiliated free undead hanging in the wilds hiding from the mindless undead. They would have potential for recruitment.
Not FD, but theoretically dragon blood has just as strong connection to elemental magic as demon blood does to Fel. I believe there might still be some Dragonmaw orcs wandering around in Azeroth or with the Blackrocks from the Second war. That might be the best place to look for dragon specific lore. That or the Dustwallow marsh/Theramore in Kalimdor. I think black dragons have a cave there, and they are functionally enemies of all life. So stealing their blood/claiming it as a war trophy is less morally thorny.
It doesn't have to be dragon blood but judging from how it started, it requires the blood of an ancient powerful being and in the journey of this orc who wants to become a blademaster he has deficiencies that need fixing. A narrative challenge to not follow a path his father and fellow orcs followed by falling back on fel after the dark portal is to find another solution other than going back into what Guldan spread.
I don't expect it to be easy which it won't be but if he finds such a solution it's going to be juicy.
Well I'm always down for a good narrative driven power up arc, and even if votes dont go for it for Grok there are alot of Fel darkened blade masters who could use a new path.
Pretty sure we are traveling with at least one.
Edit: on the topic of "things we might already have to fight", I'd imagine that you can do alot with the essence of a Fallen Neru/those Fallen Light beings. So long as proper containment precautions are taken.
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