Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

I don't feel like the forsaken are bad, more that sylvanas has shown herself over the years to be not so friendly.
They definitely are bad, morally and strategically.

At most, they're pretty poor allies, at worst they're actively sabotaging the Horde. They provide expertise in alchemy, magic and a couple of other areas, but otherwise don't contribute much. They'll be embargoed by Kul Tiras so no big trade apart from zepplins, and many enemies, and they're pretty weak before they get widespread necromancer support to make more forsaken. Regarding sabotage, this is canon, there's a q in Darkwood that confirms it as one example and in general Sylvannus is just out for herself.

They consistently pull the general moral authority of the Horde down and cause problems, given as a people they tolerate various immoralities like human experimentation and so on. They're institutionally evil.

In-universe this is probably because they're undead and have no positive emotions, but there seem to be very few examples of good behaviour from them.
 
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They definitely are bad, morally and strategically.

At most, they're pretty poor allies, at worst they're actively sabotaging the Horde. They provide expertise in alchemy, magic and a couple of other areas, but otherwise don't contribute much. They'll be embargoed by Kul Tiras so no big trade apart from zepplins, and many enemies, and they're pretty weak before they get widespread necromancer support to make more forsaken.

They consistently pull the general moral authority of the Horde down and cause problems, given as a people they tolerate various immoralities like human experimentation and so on. They're institutionally evil.

In-universe this is probably because they're undead and have no positive emotions, but there seem to be very few examples of good behaviour from them.
I mean, if there are so little gains, why bother? Was it because the Horde felt some sort of responsibility to curing their condition or whatever?

On top of which, this does sort of broach an uncomfortable topic of whether or not an race/faction can be written off as just 'evil'. Granted, I'm not as invested in the lore as other people here, but my impression was that most of the atrocities being conducted were those from higher positions and usually done in secret so that even the regular every day forsaken wouldn't know. There are also those forsaken who seem to adhere to the light as well, even if it does hurt them, so I don't feel it's entirely fair.
 
Some remarks on the Forsaken
I mean, if there are so little gains, why bother? Was it because the Horde felt some sort of responsibility to curing their condition or whatever?
So this does indeed open up a wider philosophical discussion. Firstly, on strategy, the Horde is desperate for allies right after the Third War and I'm pretty sure the Forsaken asked first. Thrall loses little in allying and then just not doing much with them. He was going to change his mind and then the Tauren argued for their inclusion and Thall being a young leader listens to his advisors. Also because they didn't know much about what the forsaken are up to, that sort of thing.

Morally,

The atrocities aren't done in secret at all. Some you might call self-defence, I don't think the average forsaken minds killing the Scarlets if necessary, but whole institutions are riven with, not even corruption but just evil, most notably the Deathstalkers (military and intel) under Varimathras and the Apothecaries (heathcare, research). This is canon, many of the forsaken qs are 'go test the new plague strain on a prisoner' and then the alchemist cackles to himself about what happens when they explode or writhe around in agony and then melt into a puddle of goo.

I described them as 'institutionally' evil, this doesn't mean they're automatically evil as a 'race' but it does mean they have an evil culture, one that violates commonly held norms and acts destructively. They're unlikely to question immoral orders, they'd not mind going and torturing people. Sylvanus canonically cares very little for her people, especially after Arthas is defeated, so the leadership is morally evil, which filters down into policies. They're a force dedicated to vengeance (fair enough), destruction and misery (not fair enough). I've just been looking through the RPG books for a particular bit but can't find it, basically its titled 'Forsaken stand alone?' and describes their isolated situation.

You could make an argument that the lower levels don't know about the various things going on. I'm not sure that stands up to scrutiny, but its arguable given Warcraft doesn't concern itself with lower level stuff. Similarly, I agree there are some Forsaken who use the Light even though it hurts them, and these are indeed virtuous and worthy. There are many more Forsaken who use the Shadow, a religion with some philosophical virtues but also a lot of evil practitioners. Also its void magic so yknow old god corruption etc. Again I'm not saying 'Individual forsaken are evil', even though a lot are, I'm saying 'The forsaken are governed by and participate in evil institutions, and are led by evil individuals'.

Compare for example LotR orcs. They're often portrayed as evil but they really aren't. They enjoy cruelty as a society just like some societies enjoy other ways of proving manliness etc. They care about pay and recognition within their own society and from superiors, and they have normal rivalries with other orcs. They hate humans and elves, and they generally dislike dwarves, but again its the institutions which are evil, and subsequently the individuals which are socialised into evil action.
 
So this does indeed open up a wider philosophical discussion. Firstly, on strategy, the Horde is desperate for allies right after the Third War and I'm pretty sure the Forsaken asked first. Thrall loses little in allying and then just not doing much with them. He was going to change his mind and then the Tauren argued for their inclusion and Thall being a young leader listens to his advisors. Also because they didn't know much about what the forsaken are up to, that sort of thing.

Morally,

The atrocities aren't done in secret at all. Some you might call self-defence, I don't think the average forsaken minds killing the Scarlets if necessary, but whole institutions are riven with, not even corruption but just evil, most notably the Deathstalkers (military and intel) under Varimathras and the Apothecaries (heathcare, research). This is canon, many of the forsaken qs are 'go test the new plague strain on a prisoner' and then the alchemist cackles to himself about what happens when they explode or writhe around in agony and then melt into a puddle of goo.

I described them as 'institutionally' evil, this doesn't mean they're automatically evil as a 'race' but it does mean they have an evil culture, one that violates commonly held norms and acts destructively. They're unlikely to question immoral orders, they'd not mind going and torturing people. Sylvanus canonically cares very little for her people, especially after Arthas is defeated, so the leadership is morally evil, which filters down into policies. They're a force dedicated to vengeance (fair enough), destruction and misery (not fair enough). I've just been looking through the RPG books for a particular bit but can't find it, basically its titled 'Forsaken stand alone?' and describes their isolated situation.

You could make an argument that the lower levels don't know about the various things going on. I'm not sure that stands up to scrutiny, but its arguable given Warcraft doesn't concern itself with lower level stuff. Similarly, I agree there are some Forsaken who use the Light even though it hurts them, and these are indeed virtuous and worthy. There are many more Forsaken who use the Shadow, a religion with some philosophical virtues but also a lot of evil practitioners. Also its void magic so yknow old god corruption etc. Again I'm not saying 'Individual forsaken are evil', even though a lot are, I'm saying 'The forsaken are governed by and participate in evil institutions, and are led by evil individuals'.

Compare for example LotR orcs. They're often portrayed as evil but they really aren't. They enjoy cruelty as a society just like some societies enjoy other ways of proving manliness etc. They care about pay and recognition within their own society and from superiors, and they have normal rivalries with other orcs. They hate humans and elves, and they generally dislike dwarves, but again its the institutions which are evil, and subsequently the individuals which are socialised into evil action.
So we can say that Thrall's current alliance with them could be frayed if we were to bring to light the various wrongdoings of sylvanas and varimathras?

Because I can see the Frosaken under sylvanas making things more difficult that it's worth. Would that we could replace her with someone a tad more, I don't know, sane or compassionate?... Maybe Alonsus Faol?

On a slightly different note, I get an inkling that the forsaken's penchant for getting into more evil acts is partially institutional, but also because the rest of the world doesn't like undead, even if they're not under the Lich King's rule. Because of whatever discrimination or distrust they face from the living, they have nowhere else to rally or find shelter than in the lands owned by Sylvanas, who can then radicalize them because she's the only one who will give them a time of day.
 
Adhoc vote count started by FractiousDay on Feb 5, 2021 at 6:10 AM, finished with 45 posts and 7 votes.

  • [X] Socialise generally with the Burning Blade clan members: You've been away for several years and you'd better get to know the clan you might lead one day.
    [x]Plan: Connections
    [X] Socialise with the Shattered Hand: These gloomy folk share the Clef of Shadow with your own clan, perhaps you can get to know your neighbours?
    [x] Kul Tiran Translation
    [x] Meet with the Blademasters: The older tradition of the clan, you've always looked up to the Blademasters. Now you've returned perhaps you might arrange a meeting with a few of them to learn about them properly?
    [x] Investigate the Renegades: While you could simply set out and hunt down the renegades, perhaps it would be better to understand why they've left the clan first? BOOST
    [x] Get orders: Speak with the Warchief's advisor Nazgrel and set about whatever tasks he might have for you.
    [X] Training: Ragefire. Shamanism is an art that takes years to practice, learn and progress in. As it stands, we don't have years. Dig further into the Ragefire that we use our blade to channel and attempt to develop other ways to call the power of the Firelands to our will without reliance on the blade.
    [X] Combat: Train your skill in the sword through sparring, your clan are fine warriors and there are no doubt many in Orgrimmar who wouldn't mind a few spars.
    [X] Plan Heir Apparent
    -[X][Boost] Investigate the Renegades: While you could simply set out and hunt down the renegades, perhaps it would be better to understand why they've left the clan first?
    [X] Investigate the Renegades: While you could simply set out and hunt down the renegades, perhaps it would be better to understand why they've left the clan first?
    [X] Plan: A Blade, Reforged.
    [X] A Future for the Blade?
    -[X] Magic books: Work with your father to examine the magical books.
    -[X] Kul Tiran translation: Seek out a translator and get an idea of what's in the papers you took.
    -[X] Write-in: Train in language: Common Human
    -[X] Meet with the Warlocks: The younger tradition of your clan, best represented by your father, is that of demonology and shadow magic. While you might disapprove of the art its power is undeniable and perhaps you should meet the warlocks of the clan.
    -[X] Meet with the Blademasters: The older tradition of the clan, you've always looked up to the Blademasters. Now you've returned perhaps you might arrange a meeting with a few of them to learn about them properly?
    [X] Meet with the Blademasters: The older tradition of the clan, you've always looked up to the Blademasters. Now you've returned perhaps you might arrange a meeting with a few of them to learn about them properly? (BOOSTED)

The vote counts seems to be broken again but Connections is winning so far. I'll leave it open for a while more, so far we've had like 6 votes so about 5% of watchers and I've seen various new people leaving likes so perhaps we'll have more votes.
 
Ow, the vote is split indeed, although Connections seems to be ahead. And I have to see how to vote in Plan format
 
Ow, the vote is split indeed, although Connections seems to be ahead. And I have to see how to vote in Plan format
I think some of its because of the draft plans? Doesn't matter at the moment but if we get lots more people voting, 30 or similar, or if I start seeing the sort of success other quests have then I'll probably have to sort the votes out.
 
So this does indeed open up a wider philosophical discussion. Firstly, on strategy, the Horde is desperate for allies right after the Third War and I'm pretty sure the Forsaken asked first. Thrall loses little in allying and then just not doing much with them. He was going to change his mind and then the Tauren argued for their inclusion and Thall being a young leader listens to his advisors. Also because they didn't know much about what the forsaken are up to, that sort of thing.

Morally,

The atrocities aren't done in secret at all. Some you might call self-defence, I don't think the average forsaken minds killing the Scarlets if necessary, but whole institutions are riven with, not even corruption but just evil, most notably the Deathstalkers (military and intel) under Varimathras and the Apothecaries (heathcare, research). This is canon, many of the forsaken qs are 'go test the new plague strain on a prisoner' and then the alchemist cackles to himself about what happens when they explode or writhe around in agony and then melt into a puddle of goo.

I described them as 'institutionally' evil, this doesn't mean they're automatically evil as a 'race' but it does mean they have an evil culture, one that violates commonly held norms and acts destructively. They're unlikely to question immoral orders, they'd not mind going and torturing people. Sylvanus canonically cares very little for her people, especially after Arthas is defeated, so the leadership is morally evil, which filters down into policies. They're a force dedicated to vengeance (fair enough), destruction and misery (not fair enough). I've just been looking through the RPG books for a particular bit but can't find it, basically its titled 'Forsaken stand alone?' and describes their isolated situation.

You could make an argument that the lower levels don't know about the various things going on. I'm not sure that stands up to scrutiny, but its arguable given Warcraft doesn't concern itself with lower level stuff. Similarly, I agree there are some Forsaken who use the Light even though it hurts them, and these are indeed virtuous and worthy. There are many more Forsaken who use the Shadow, a religion with some philosophical virtues but also a lot of evil practitioners. Also its void magic so yknow old god corruption etc. Again I'm not saying 'Individual forsaken are evil', even though a lot are, I'm saying 'The forsaken are governed by and participate in evil institutions, and are led by evil individuals'.

Compare for example LotR orcs. They're often portrayed as evil but they really aren't. They enjoy cruelty as a society just like some societies enjoy other ways of proving manliness etc. They care about pay and recognition within their own society and from superiors, and they have normal rivalries with other orcs. They hate humans and elves, and they generally dislike dwarves, but again its the institutions which are evil, and subsequently the individuals which are socialised into evil action.

Thunderous applause. Incredible, brutally honest analysis, one with which I agree wholeheartedly. Especially the part about Tolkien orcs, who, indeed, show more depth than most Forsaken in the few scenes Tolkien provides us that portray them as people, rather than just mentions of "oh, bad orc-y stuff afoul" from other characters. The fact that the orcs attribute bad moral qualities to their opposing peoples (abandonment of an ally is "regular Elvish trick", for example) makes it especially interesting.
(Reminder that the Great Goblin did nothing wrong, and that Peter Jackson's biggest mistake in "The Hobbit" trilogy was making every opposing force a servant of Sauron, while they had their own desires and grievances that led to the Battle of Five Armies in the children's book original)
 
(Reminder that the Great Goblin did nothing wrong, and that Peter Jackson's biggest mistake in "The Hobbit" trilogy was making every opposing force a servant of Sauron, while they had their own desires and grievances that led to the Battle of Five Armies in the children's book original)
Glad you liked it, sylvanus and the forsaken tend to be very poorly understood by the playerbase. I kind of interpret the steady growth in importance and story prominence of Sylvanus over the different expansions to blizz indulging this desire. IMO they're not that interesting and their narrative doesn't justify their growth in power, there's a reason after all we're doing orc quest not forsaken quest.

To be fair, I don't necessarily mind the 'all evil forces ultimately answer to one' idea. If you're working with that sort of cosmic villany it makes sense that most evil peoples would be under that single figure, serving them, etc etc. Similarly I don't think its necessary to explain away the morality between the fantasy genocides we see. There's some implication that Thorin's Company might try to diplo their way past the Great Goblin but equally I think the explanation of 'we are eternal enemies, kill them all' is an acceptable explanation. You can compare it to things like the Cathar genocide irl. If you can kill them why not do so if you perceive their presence to be so objectionable.
 
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To be fair, I don't necessarily mind the 'all evil forces ultimately answer to one' idea. If you're working with that sort of cosmic villany it makes sense that most evil peoples would be under that single figure, serving them, etc etc. Similarly I don't think its necessary to explain away the morality between the fantasy genocides we see. There's some implication that Thorin's Company might try to diplo their way past the Great Goblin but equally I think the explanation of 'we are eternal enemies, kill them all' is an acceptable explanation. You can compare it to things like the Cathar genocide irl. If you can kill them why not do so if you perceive their presence to be so objectionable.
Thing is, the narrative of "The Hobbit" book was not reliant on cosmic villainy, and tying Gundabad and Goblin Town back to Sauron just to explain why would they be bad guys (even though the film already has shown the War of Orcs and Dwarves as a flashback) was lazy. It makes the world much smaller. The fact that a Moria goblin comes up to the Grishnákh/Ugluk band and says "Whatever, we don't care about your lords, we are here for vengeance", same as the Goblintown war motivation back in Hobbit, is something I really liked. What I'm saying is, the orcs of Middle-Earth are way more interesting than they are given credit, perhaps the one time they weren't was in Silmarillion, which may as well be by design (as aside from Glaurung, nobody else on Team Morgoth is treated as their own character, all is extension of Melkor's vain desires). LOTR, especially ROTK, however, draw a distinct line between the subservient orcs, and the "bosses" on Team Sauron (a conflict between the everyman warrior from a shitty society and the actually malevolent Sauron and his servants, mostly Black Numenoreans (the Mouth, Nazgul)). Like, I don't think modern fantasy went too far beyond it as far as portrayal of enemy fantasy army goes.
 
A couple of smaller points before a larger one. In general I'm fine with derails because they bump the thread. I'll write an actual info post on something later today though and if we don't see a load of votes I'll close the voting tonight.

the narrative of "The Hobbit" book was not reliant on cosmic villainy
No, because it was a children's book, but they weren't adapting that they were creating a new property which tried to emulate LotR's film success, so I think you have to look at it like that. For example I think the White Council's pre-emptive strike against Smaug is a fairly good reason for Gandalf to get the quest started and help Thorin, rather than the book example of just a wizard being friendly. That ties the wider narrative of LotR into this new property of the Hobbit, it neatly allows the audience to place this in the wider evil hierarchy. Similarly it brings in the political elements of fantasy which I also thought was good. I mean the films are terrible but there's at least some mildly interesting bits there.

Also I found it highly amusing that the Hobbit films confirmed the implication of the LotR films that Sauron is a disability friendly employer given the number of disabled orcs in leadership positions in his armies.

all is extension of Melkor's vain desires
This is an interesting point. It's pretty useful to have your villains as evil gods basically because then the foot soldiers are merely the extension of the villain's will. Their individual motivations need not be explained, nor their particular desires. Something like Darkspawn for example need no exposition because you just say 'standard evil army' controlled by a dragon, same with wights in GoT or any other puppet type army. Tropes aren't inherently bad, the evil army trope means the audience knows only the decapitation strike will work and that allows you to explore the interpersonal conflict between the characters instead rather than between hero and enemy.

The idea that the enemies are just extensions of the villain's will, or are evil perversions of some 'good' thing (eg orcs as elves) allows the reader to be accepting of genocides against the evil peoples.

Like, I don't think modern fantasy went too far beyond it as far as portrayal of enemy fantasy army goes.

And on my last point, although this is true to an extent its been handed down by Tolkien as the father of fantasy. Tolkien very seldom has evil characters actually speaking or explaining their motivations, and usually its just taunts. There's the orc band chapter where the Moria goblins, Baradur Orcs and Isengard Uruk-hai all have a discussion and as you say explain or at least point to their motivations, but then they're all killed. Faramir later stands over an Easterling and monologues a bit but its not like he actually talks to the Easterlings, he just talks generally about them. Tolkien is aware that the evil peoples have various motivations, but he's not particularly interested in exploring said motivation or presenting them as anything other than enemies.

So to begin we must remember that it is a fantasy genre tradition to not examine the evil enemy army. But we must also remember that we're talking about fantasy stories. These stories explore adventure and stuff and add some dragons in. GRRM comes along and asks 'what is Aragorn's taxation policy?'. This isn't something Tolkien concerns himself with so its sort of an unfair question, but in general I think it's an interesting point. How do we understand the politics of the One True King? Similarly, What happened to the orcs? One implication you can take is that the Free Peoples genocided them. I don't agree with this interpretation but orcs apparently just disappear after Sauron is defeated and in a fantasy story the specifics of this aren't examined.

What you're asking for is a political story which don't tend to be read by people who also read fantasy stories. Yes people are interested in both of course, but I think that's probably one of the reasons why ASOIAF was so successful, it was a fantasy story that included politics. People who talk about Dany or Stannis or whoever as the One True King and obsess over parentage etc are missing GRRM's point, the narrative is concerned with the struggle, not what is 'right'.

This quest I'm writing now is indeed a political story just as much as its a fantasy story. The prologue touched on that a bit but not loads, while in this latest arc the main enemy isn't the renegade warlocks or similar, the conflict comes from your ability to navigate the various intrigues. You're already making mistakes and assumptions which I'm finding quite amusing and we'll see how it works out for you.
 
To stay on topic: I am sort-of-trying to roleplay the character as you describe him in topic posts, and I see how a lot of stuff is changed already from canon, so, say, I'm not immediately going on the assumption "Fel bad, We good". I may be making mistakes due to remembering the traditional characterizations (Neeru as an underhanded Shadow Council agent; Thrall as that 'Big Brother But Good' guy, who carried the Horde through WC3, and greeted your young orc characters in WoW - I may be fanboying here a bit, but meeting Thrall for the first time was probably my most favourite moment of playing WoW), but what're you gonna do? Get lemons, make lemonade. I don't know, maybe Grok should have totally signed onto the ambitious revolutionary warrior's faction, and damn that Warchief and his lil' friend Jaina Proudmoore. Maybe Grok should have ignored Sen'jin and went after Clan's orders immediately. I don't know. I think half of what makes Warcraft fun are the tragic mistakes characters end up making.

And on my last point, although this is true to an extent its been handed down by Tolkien as the father of fantasy. Tolkien very seldom has evil characters actually speaking or explaining their motivations, and usually its just taunts. There's the orc band chapter where the Moria goblins, Baradur Orcs and Isengard Uruk-hai all have a discussion and as you say explain or at least point to their motivations, but then they're all killed. Faramir later stands over an Easterling and monologues a bit but its not like he actually talks to the Easterlings, he just talks generally about them. Tolkien is aware that the evil peoples have various motivations, but he's not particularly interested in exploring said motivation or presenting them as anything other than enemies.
What I'm saying is, this is still more than the Darkspawn you mentioned, or the Others (unless GRRM delivers something unexpected, at most I can see it as "mutated humans that need sacrifices to multiply", which still doesn't change them much as a threat), or, heck, the empire from "Witcher" got in terms of depth, which I find fascinating since, yes, Tolkien barely even focused on enemy factions, and didn't even like writing about them (hence the never finished "A New Shadow"), unless their name was Melkor. It's not hard to look at the world Tolkien has crafted and understand the sides' motivations even if they weren't written much about. Dunelendings want their lands back, orcs are in mortal struggle against dwarves over habitat and are used as cannon fodder by Dark Lords against other peoples otherwise, Haradrim and Easterlings were duped into believing Sauron is a living god-king of humanity, Black Numenoreans fully signed on the whole dark magic adventure etc. In no way are Tolkien's dark armies generic compared to, say, the Darkspawn, or the Scourge, who have no political motivations other than the magical-based mission of devastation, which is a shame they haven't gotten much screen time, but even the bare scraps that are left are quite interesting. Now, I'll note that I'm actually not that interested in the dark forces of Silmarillion (other than Glaurung), since this book DOES actually succeed in creating the dark army narrative that people think about when saying "Tolkien orcs": we don't even get the names of orcish chieftains, not even something so potentially interesting as maiar-based boldogs; and that's the point, there is nothing to these beings other than being extensions of Melkor. That book's much more interesting in how much evil it shows happening on the Free Peoples' side, especially elvish villainy (Eöl the Dark Elf, you truly are a terrible person).

So to begin we must remember that it is a fantasy genre tradition to not examine the evil enemy army. But we must also remember that we're talking about fantasy stories. These stories explore adventure and stuff and add some dragons in. GRRM comes along and asks 'what is Aragorn's taxation policy?'. This isn't something Tolkien concerns himself with so its sort of an unfair question, but in general I think it's an interesting point. How do we understand the politics of the One True King? Similarly, What happened to the orcs? One implication you can take is that the Free Peoples genocided them. I don't agree with this interpretation but orcs apparently just disappear after Sauron is defeated and in a fantasy story the specifics of this aren't examined.
Funny thing is, I think Tolkien actually wrote more on taxation than GRRM. SPECIFICALLY, Aragorn giving Shire autonomy and an indefinite tax break.
Heh, imagine Tolkien asking Martin to describe the linguistic differences between the kingdoms, especially now that AGOT's old perspective on the Andals is long since gone and nearly every big house comes from First Men lineage, even the Lannisters which GRRM originally used as the ur-example of how Andal house names sound.

What you're asking for is a political story which don't tend to be read by people who also read fantasy stories. Yes people are interested in both of course, but I think that's probably one of the reasons why ASOIAF was so successful, it was a fantasy story that included politics. People who talk about Dany or Stannis or whoever as the One True King and obsess over parentage etc are missing GRRM's point, the narrative is concerned with the struggle, not what is 'right'.

This quest I'm writing now is indeed a political story just as much as its a fantasy story. The prologue touched on that a bit but not loads, while in this latest arc the main enemy isn't the renegade warlocks or similar, the conflict comes from your ability to navigate the various intrigues. You're already making mistakes and assumptions which I'm finding quite amusing and we'll see how it works out for you.
Looking at GRRM's older stories, I'd be very surprised if any of the "right via feudal system" endings happen, when the story is partially about how deeply unfair such a society is.
 
I am sort-of-trying to roleplay the character as you describe him in topic posts, and I see how a lot of stuff is changed already from canon, so, say, I'm not immediately going on the assumption "Fel bad, We good". I may be making mistakes due to remembering the traditional characterizations (Neeru as an underhanded Shadow Council agent; Thrall as that 'Big Brother But Good' guy, who carried the Horde through WC3, and greeted your young orc characters in WoW - I may be fanboying here a bit, but meeting Thrall for the first time was probably my most favourite moment of playing WoW), but what're you gonna do? Get lemons, make lemonade. I don't know, maybe Grok should have totally signed onto the ambitious revolutionary warrior's faction, and damn that Warchief and his lil' friend Jaina Proudmoore. Maybe Grok should have ignored Sen'jin and went after Clan's orders immediately. I don't know. I think half of what makes Warcraft fun are the tragic mistakes characters end up making.

Oh I agree on this, I'm aware that the participants will be using memories etc, that's the reason all of you are interested in a warcraft q rather than some other franchise etc. Ultimately I'm not allowing significant metaknowledge so you and the character operate on limited intel. For example I wouldn't let you write in 'expose onyxia as a dragon', though I would let you investigate dragons etc.

Funny thing is, I think Tolkien actually wrote more on taxation than GRRM. SPECIFICALLY, Aragorn giving Shire autonomy and an indefinite tax break.
Yes I find this rather amusing as well. Same for religion and various other matters.
 
"Are all orcs evil?", "What was Aragorn's tax policy?", and "Did Aragorn kill all the baby orcs?" are all subjects that were addressed by one youtube channel by the name of In Deep Geek, which I highly recommend if any of y'all have a further interest in the subject. Truly, the questions of our time.



 
So what type of stuff are we thinking the renegades might be having a cause to rebel against the horde and the clan? What part is narrative to make the clan head look good and not skivy and what parts are the fact? I'm thinking the renegades are possibly those parts of the clan that are not wanting to stab the horde in the dick quite yet and are feeling pretty unwilling to go through with it. Feldad as it was is most likely trying to use them as a scape goat to hide his own nerfarious deeds.

Alternatively it could be just what it said on the tin with these being a bunch of the common folks on the blade who have drunk the magical kool aide and lost the struggle to contain the fel as it was. I think there is an interesting dichotomy here between having warlocks who preach having total control over their will least they are taken over by the demons or even fall into demonhood themselves. Only real issue with trying to keep that mess ship tight as it were would be having some type of antidemon specialized clan that focuses on making sure the clan of warlocks doesn't go all crazy to burn the world in fel. Though that thought leads into a who watches the watchers, maybe having different sub branches of the burning blade that deal with warlock matters, have one that deals with hunting warlocks and one that interacts between the two to make sure things go well would be best. A series of peers or something like a triumvirate, or that fancy word for a trio of leaders.
 
Exile-o-Meter
So here's the promised infopost regarding the 'Exile-o-Meter'. I need to do more thinking on this myself so questions are welcome to help me flesh it out more.

Exile is often employed in fiction to present a sort of social conflict or failstate for a character which the audience can relate to. Everyone's been shunned at some point and the idea of 'social death' is a frightening one. Sometimes exile is used as a type of character development, or to emphasise the seriousness of an issue, other times its represented rather less well IMO. One notable cases of exile that I can think of at the moment are the Slayers of WFB, Dwarves who've shamed themselves so badly they're compelled to seek a glorious death to wipe out this dishonour.

Exile can also be voluntary, such as the early Muslims who left Arabia to escape religious persecution. This type of exile represents a social break with established communities.

Exile doesn't need to be declared, codified or even universally accepted. It's a complex issue so I won't go into it completely here but it is a real and potential danger in this quest.

As I've emphasised through the quest so far the Orcish society is socially complex but institutionally primitive. This means I'm not going to tabulate a series of actions by you that would get you 'exile points' or something and if said points go over 20 something bad would happen, or potentially have you mechanically gaming the system. This is a complex social issue so I don't plan to make many rolls either. I will however give a few general indications of how exile can work in this quest and how you might avoid it.

Why is exile a factor in this quest?

The purpose of this quest, from the start, has been to explore the theme of agency. I don't mind the drift that seems to be happening over time, I'm pleased with the progress in any case, but one of the major points of agency is to provide you the choice to do things and make sure you're affected by the consequences of this. I want there to be consequences to breaking norms and to create a the possibility of conflict resulting from social causes rather than merely a monster attacking or similar.

Who can exile you in the first place?

There aren't any courts like there would be for declaring outlawry in Iceland or Rome, instead it would be more of a generally accepted statement or understanding by various persons in powerful positions, and by society in general. The main people who could exile you are your parents, your clan chief (in this case also your parent), your racial leader, your warchief, and possibly some nebulous collection of elder shaman who represent the spiritual authority of the Horde. If the Warchief isn't an Orc this becomes more complicated, but the same principles apply.

Why might you be exiled?

As I mentioned this is nebulous. Because of the nature of feuds tribal societies don't generally practice the death penalty or corporal punishment, rather they remove the offender from the community to avoid them harming the community. How can you harm the community? Firstly you've got the usual higher crimes including murder, manslaughter, rape and other things. If the relatives or the clan of the person you've attacked don't take revenge first you might be exiled after the act to avoid the crime spiralling into a feud that breaks the community.

You can generally be exiled for dishonouring something or someone publicly. The Orcs operate a public honour and shame culture meaning private actions won't necessarily be considered important unless they intrude on the public sphere. Norms can change and transform, and its possible for you to be considered dishonourable for something you're not responsible for.

The Orcs value strength, honour (that is, the maintenance of one's standing in the community), valour, skill, tradition and various other virtues. If you go against these virtues you offend the community.

Some reasons you might be exiled include:
  • Causing shame to your family or community
  • Offending religious or social sensibilities, such as killing a shaman
  • Damaging the Horde's relations with foreign nations, such as attacking the Alliance without orders
  • General crimes such as murder
  • Disobedience, such as disobeying various authority figures
  • Political unpopularity
These offenses can range in severity and length. For example you've been causing your father and therefore the Burning Blade clan shame from an early age, but this shame hasn't been offensive enough to merit exile because you're weaker than normal but can still fight, by comparison, Gul'dan was exiled for being disabled.

Virtue can erase sin. If you go about raiding alliance settlements and caravans you're damaging the Horde reputation, but you're also raising your own reputation and emphasising the valour of the Horde, therefore the two can cancel each other out.

What are the consequences of exile?

At the most basic level you're expelled from the community. If the cause of your exile is so egregious you might be hunted down in an attempt to erase the dishonour your existence causes. Due to your exile you would generally be denied services and hospitality. You wouldn't be permitted in Orcish communities, given assistance in various other areas, and generally be removed from the community as mentioned earlier. I say 'might' because you might receive different responses from different groups. If you murdered a shaman or enslaved an elemental then the Burning Blade probably wouldn't be as concerned about that as the Frostwolves would be, so while one might consider you exiled you might be welcomed in other areas. Similarly the Warsong would generally be fine with military aggression.

What should you consider moving forward?

I as the QM will be keeping a fairly informal tally on the 'Exile-o-Meter'. As I've said I won't be tabulating this or similar, but I will be noting what sort of things you've gotten up to and how this is perceived by various people. Consider carefully whenever you take a significant action, or when you begin a longer course of actions. It will be very rare that a single action will cause an immediate exile. As one example, at the end of this arc I'm going to consider my notes and decide whether you're going to be exiled. If you fail to demonstrate your strength and value to the clan, fail to bring glory to your father as his son, fail to represent the Burning Blade well and so on you will likely be exiled.

Later through the quest you should consider your actions carefully and how they reflect on you, your clan and the Horde in general. If you want to achieve a high rank you'll need to not be exiled obviously. If you want to wander about as an exiled adventurer that's fine as well. There's been a lot of talk about samurai previously in the thread and the Burning Blade are described through the artwork as samurai with their banners etc, but keep in mind that to be a ronin is actually quite a dishonourable position. As such, in general try to avoid being exiled.
 
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which I highly recommend if any of y'all have a further interest in the subject.
I didn't actually like these but not a problem if you do. I think they look into something which we have no answers about. The purpose of GRRM's question of 'what was the tax policy' isn't actually meant to be answered, that goes against the point of the question. Instead its meant to be used as a question generally about the mechanisms of government and how we examine things closely in fantasy stories. GRRM doesn't actually want to go into economics in stories, he's asking 'how do we examine the trope of 'the good king' and so on. Similarly the genocide question isn't a 'real' question again, its designed to provoke discussion and consideration of how fantasy stories deal with 'evil' races.

Also voting closed now, Connections wins. I'll use this post for rolls.

On this arc, political stuff won't be as effected by rolls, more by the reasoning on your posts. I'm also going to be using a general roll for each action, and breaking up the rolls into smaller rolls less after feedback. The small rolls may or may not still be there, but remember its all just an abstraction.

See reasoning post and final plan post below. @hapcelion could you confirm what you're meaning about the Kul Tiran translation? Your first and second posts seem to contradict? Are you wanting it to be a 'learning language' option or a 'translating material' option?

Tentatively, let's name this [x]Plan: Connections

Yeah, I say we further ingratiate ourselves with the warchief. Not just so we're secure on his good side, but also for the meta reason of maybe influencing him later to prevent Garrosh from getting into the hot seat.

Plus, our standing in the Horde will probably get a good boost from some more successes.

[ ] Get orders: Speak with the Warchief's advisor Nazgrel and set about whatever tasks he might have for you.

I think we may also need to first investigate the renegades before we start purging them, just to make sure we know who's who and not accidentally kill Feldad's rivals for him. I don't want to have to wait around too much for fear of someone else being sent in to deal with them unquestioningly.
[ ] Investigate the Renegades: While you could simply set out and hunt down the renegades, perhaps it would be better to understand why they've left the clan first? BOOST

Other than that, we may want to consider improving our skills with the blade and talk to more experienced practitioners. Personally, I'd love to get in touch with the older traditions rather than the fel stuff, but that's just me.
[ ] Meet with the Blademasters: The older tradition of the clan, you've always looked up to the Blademasters. Now you've returned perhaps you might arrange a meeting with a few of them to learn about them properly?

Ok, so here's the risky part. We can socialize with people now. In character, I think it'd best to talk to our own clan first. we need to see who's still around, any old faces, some new faces, get to know what the whole family is going through and what their thoughts are. Basically, read the room and see what direction the clan is in and see if we like what we see. But additionally, I think it's also probably a good idea to get some contacts in the shattered hand. Not just so we can get someone who's good at intelligence gathering on our side (because having some juicy intel about places we want to go and target discretely would be nice), but if we ever come across a some earth shattering secret about, I don't know, Feldad, maybe nice to pass it along to someone in the intelligence community if we can't find Thrall?


[ ] Socialise generally with the Burning Blade clan members: You've been away for several years and you'd better get to know the clan you might lead one day.
[ ] Socialise with the Shattered Hand: These gloomy folk share the Clef of Shadow with your own clan, perhaps you can get to know your neighbours?

I'm going to skip training and go straight to Researching Language Common, if @FractiousDay doesn't mind the write in being combined with Kul Tiran Translation. But I'd love to get back to studying Shamanism next turn.

*edit: since GM suggests we use a training slot for this, and apparently opens up a research slot, I suppose we can use that extra for some father and son time studying that magic book we found! We'll get to know each other well enough for a sudden yet inevitable betrayal.
[x]Plan: Connections

[x] Get orders: Speak with the Warchief's advisor Nazgrel and set about whatever tasks he might have for you.
[x] Investigate the Renegades: While you could simply set out and hunt down the renegades, perhaps it would be better to understand why they've left the clan first? BOOST
[x] Meet with the Blademasters: The older tradition of the clan, you've always looked up to the Blademasters. Now you've returned perhaps you might arrange a meeting with a few of them to learn about them properly?
[x] Socialise generally with the Burning Blade clan members: You've been away for several years and you'd better get to know the clan you might lead one day.
[x] Socialise with the Shattered Hand: These gloomy folk share the Clef of Shadow with your own clan, perhaps you can get to know your neighbours?
[x] Kul Tiran Translation
Scheduled vote count started by FractiousDay on Feb 3, 2021 at 1:43 PM, finished with 59 posts and 9 votes.

  • [x]Plan: Connections
    [X] Socialise with the Shattered Hand: These gloomy folk share the Clef of Shadow with your own clan, perhaps you can get to know your neighbours?
    [X] Socialise generally with the Burning Blade clan members: You've been away for several years and you'd better get to know the clan you might lead one day.
    [x] Kul Tiran Translation
    [x] Meet with the Blademasters: The older tradition of the clan, you've always looked up to the Blademasters. Now you've returned perhaps you might arrange a meeting with a few of them to learn about them properly?
    [x] Investigate the Renegades: While you could simply set out and hunt down the renegades, perhaps it would be better to understand why they've left the clan first? BOOST
    [x] Get orders: Speak with the Warchief's advisor Nazgrel and set about whatever tasks he might have for you.
    -[X][Boost] Investigate the Renegades: While you could simply set out and hunt down the renegades, perhaps it would be better to understand why they've left the clan first?
    [X] Plan Heir Apparent
    -[X] Kul Tiran translation: Seek out a translator and get an idea of what's in the papers you took.
    -[X] Magic books: Work with your father to examine the magical books.
    -[X] Write-in: Train in language: Common Human
    -[X] Meet with the Warlocks: The younger tradition of your clan, best represented by your father, is that of demonology and shadow magic. While you might disapprove of the art its power is undeniable and perhaps you should meet the warlocks of the clan.
    -[X] Meet with the Blademasters: The older tradition of the clan, you've always looked up to the Blademasters. Now you've returned perhaps you might arrange a meeting with a few of them to learn about them properly?
    [X] Investigate the Renegades: While you could simply set out and hunt down the renegades, perhaps it would be better to understand why they've left the clan first?
    [X] Plan: A Blade, Reforged.
    [X] A Future for the Blade?
    [X] Combat: Train your skill in the sword through sparring, your clan are fine warriors and there are no doubt many in Orgrimmar who wouldn't mind a few spars.
    [X] Training: Ragefire. Shamanism is an art that takes years to practice, learn and progress in. As it stands, we don't have years. Dig further into the Ragefire that we use our blade to channel and attempt to develop other ways to call the power of the Firelands to our will without reliance on the blade.
    [X] Meet with the Blademasters: The older tradition of the clan, you've always looked up to the Blademasters. Now you've returned perhaps you might arrange a meeting with a few of them to learn about them properly? (BOOSTED)
FractiousDay threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Getting orders Total: 181
99 99 82 82
FractiousDay threw 7 100-faced dice. Reason: Investigate Renegades Total: 499
65 65 11 11 88 88 79 79 98 98 89 89 69 69
FractiousDay threw 5 100-faced dice. Reason: Blademasters Total: 182
75 75 20 20 42 42 19 19 26 26
FractiousDay threw 5 100-faced dice. Reason: Socialising Total: 176
60 60 12 12 84 84 16 16 4 4
FractiousDay threw 7 100-faced dice. Reason: Shattered Hand Total: 365
24 24 80 80 10 10 40 40 78 78 54 54 79 79
FractiousDay threw 4 100-faced dice. Reason: Translation Total: 154
13 13 65 65 74 74 2 2
 
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Since you said that combining translating the kul tiran materials with just learning the language wouldn't be particularly effective, I have opted to just let someone translate the materials for now and we can learn common on our own time another day.
 
Orgrimmar 1 Results
A fairly dense social chapter, with the rolls very much for inspiration rather than specific results. Feedback and analysis welcome as usual.

-x-

There's much to do in the weeks after your arrival and the first trip you make is back to Grommash Hold to seek an audience with Nazgrel. While you're not so base as to try and flatter the Frostwolf, you know he knows far more about the threats to the Horde than you do and you decide to offer your assistance and see whether he has any duties for you. Privately, perhaps more selfishly, you seek to secure the apparent goodwill of the Warchief and perhaps once again catch the attention of Thrall. Such a figure could certainly assist in your ambitions and besides, you owe allegiance to the Warchief and your father both.

Your status and your recent acquaintance gets you a short audience and you find Nazgrel once again at his desk, sitting back as he appraises you.

"Who do you serve?" he asks after a pause, sitting forward, elbows resting on his papers.

"Azeroth." you reply easily, and at Nazgrel's waved hand you continue, "The greatest threat to this world, and all worlds is the Burning Legion. They destroyed Draenor and Argus before it, put nations to the sword and birthed horrors like the Scourge. Many evils stem from them and other conflicts are petty in comparison to the one we first against the demons. We might fight humans or centaur or other enemies but the Legion are waiting and every battle we fight against other enemies only weakens us."

Nazgrel raises an eyebrow, "True enough," he admits, "But how do you intend us to fight demons when we have Kul Tiras breathing down our necks?"

It reminds you of your conversation with Vark and you reply in a similar manner, "The Warchief seeks peace, if that can be achieved we can unite against the Legion. The Kul Tirans never faced demons specifically so they distrust us, but if we can overcome their vengeance we can unite."

The Frostwolf looks distinctly sceptical but apparently decides to proceed anyway. "What's your father got you doing?"

"He's given me no specific duties, but then I've just arrived." you reply honestly, "I'd planned to hunt down some of the renegades of my clan before they bring greater dishonour to us."

Nazgrel nods, "There's a goblin by name of Fizzle Darkstorm in the canyons north of Razor Hill, a warlock from the old days… he may have some demonic token which might be of use to us in combatting the Legion. Slay him and his followers, my lieutenant in Razor Hill, Gar'thok, will help you."

With that you're dismissed, smiling slightly at the thought of the trust Nazgrel, and in turn the Warchief, are placing in you.

In comparison your encounter with your father is far less productive, you approach him one day while he's examining the Kul Tiran texts, eager to learn his will, only to be rebuffed:

"You wish to know more regarding these renegades?" your father asks and you know even at the start of his speech that this encounter will be an unpleasant one. There's an enforced jolliness, a mocking quality to his words as he berates you. "I had thought you'd known all you needed to already? Is this not so, 'Blademaster'? I understand you've been visiting the Warchief! Do you now consider yourself worthy enough to lead our people? Worthy enough to join the Council of Chiefs? Surely such a learned orc will know the status of his own people? Go among them, 'Chief', what can I tell you that you don't already know?"

As you'd guessed, an unpleasant experience which finds you leaving the family tent without a word, stalking down into the communal area to seek other sources.

First though it's necessary to get to know your clan again. You'd been away for a long time and one of the first absences you'd noticed was your uncle, Arnak. You remembered relatively little of him and looking further you found that most of the acquaintances from your youth were absent, some apparently dead, others deployed or replaced, still more with fates unknown to you.

"It gladdens my heart to see you again young chief! I look forward to the day when your own wise policies will drive our clan to glory, just as your father's have."

You sigh, "Hello Drok."

Drok the Craven is one figure you'd had no interest in meeting again. His was a shameful tale and the orc was an embarrassment to the clan. He wore rich robes like any of the warlocks but had no magical ability and was patronised merely for the amusement of the clan, a sort of lucky charm. Drok had once been selected for training as a shaman, or so the story told to you went, but had only been able to hear the Spirits whenever they'd been telling him to retreat. He'd fled from beasts, ogres and others Orcs, and then once he'd crossed the Dark Portal with the rest of the clan he'd tried and failed to join the warlocks like the other shaman of the Horde, maintaining only his cowardice. You supposed he might have some interesting remarks about Draenor as one of the older orcs but you couldn't bear to talk to him and after a few words you turned away from the simpering fool.

Then you feel his hand on your shoulder, your own going to your swordhilt as Drok pulls you closer, "Beware Bloodeye!" the orc rasps, looking to either side as to ward away eavesdroppers, then releasing you and walking quickly away.

There were new faces though, and interesting ones at that! They include:

  • Ureda, female orc and magic user, unusual for any clan but less so in the Burning Blade which served as the Horde's magical expertise. Female shaman weren't unusual but few of them had turned to the Fel and as such there were very few female warlocks, or older female shaman. However, by repute she wasn't a warlock but was rather interested in the tradition of arcane magic practiced by the humans and elves.

  • Keldran, another oddity, this time a warlock but one who studied the unpopular shadow magic of the necrolytes rather than the Fel. Gul'dan's original necrolytes had all been killed and it seemed this orc was trying to resurrect their tradition.

  • Takata, known as the Steelblade. This orc is one of the Blademasters who more closely associates with the warlocks of the Burning Blade rather than with his own kind.

  • Gorn, another Blademaster, this time a commander apparently to depart for some far land shortly. Gorn's grandfather you know was Dharl of the Thrice-Bloodied Blade, a hero of your clan.

  • Drek the Firecaller, one of the few priests of the Orcs, a pyremaster, responsible for funerary rites and the burning of the dead rather than the more general spiritual guidance a shaman is responsible for. It is said pyremasters have strange powers…

Finally, Gan'rul Bloodeye, the warlock Drok had warned you about. Gan'rul is a figure you remember vaguely, just as you had a few others, but like them you remember him as a distant figure rather than a close acquaintance. He was several years over you, fully grown though yet to take a mate. From what you'd heard around the clan he was perceived as a rising star and you suspect Drok warned you against him due to Gan'rul's increasing political influence. Most of the warlocks of your clan were young and Gan'rul was one of the generation after your father's, one of the first to be born on Azeroth after the Orcs had moved through the Dark Portal, growing up in the shadow of more powerful warlocks and learning from them rather than converting from shamanism to demonic magic as your father had done. He was one of the relatively few 'pure' warlocks, teachings unclouded by other traditions and he'd embraced the fel enthusiastically, his eyes almost as red as your father's. Gan'rul has apparently 'been east' and is one of the more powerful and active warlocks of the clan and has recently summoned a shadow demon to do his bidding.

As another way to refamiliarise yourself with the clan you seek out the Blademasters. You have no specific expectations of the meeting but perhaps secretly you might hope to receive some special insight regarding the traditions of the Blademasters given it's been a dream of yours to be one yourself.

To find them though you have to leave the Cleft of Shadow and journey back across the canyoned city, this time to the Valley of Honour. This section of the city holds all things relating to martial pursuits, from the Ring of Valour, Orgrimmar's gladiatorial arena, to the Hall of the Brave which houses many of the wandering warriors of the Horde. This is also the home to the Blackrock clan and the ring on hammer on anvil and the smell of burning metal fills your head as you walk in. Several areas have been sectioned off for specific martial practices including warg training and duelling and you quickly find the blademasters by their visible banners in their corner. Here orcs practice with swords rather wear no armour, unusual among the rest of the warriors like the hammer wielding, armoured legions of the Blackrock.

You seek out the captain of the area, a middle aged orc wielding a large sword resembling your own and introduce yourself. The Blademaster is Akinos, a name you vaguely remember from your childhood and you swiftly begin to converse, the orc occasionally shouting commands to his students. One approaches, Sorek of the Blackrock, armoured and wielding a fine axe and the conversation turns to one of swords with you explaining your experiments with your trophy and its subsequent situation.

"You should speak with Gor'ashan." Sorek notes, "The call him 'Orebreaker' and I know he apprenticed to Blackhand years ago, perhaps he'd know what to do with the sword."

But Akinos shakes his head, "In the old days we worked with the Blackrock to forge our swords but the magic in them came solely from the Burning Blade, perhaps Gor'ashan might offer some insight but not even Blackhand knew our secrets." he looks at you, "It's a pity we haven't the skill to make more of them, but if you prove worthy there's enough around that you could take one. Until then you'll have to manage without, I'm certainly not the one to allow or deny you in this matter."

"Who must I speak with to learn more of the making of them then?" you ask, thinking back to your observations regarding the two Fire Elementals battling to the death through your sword.

"Jubei'thos perhaps, or Moogul, but no one's seen them in years… Oh, and on that note, if you even encounter Rehgar Earthfury, young warrior, be wary. He's had several of our kind killed. Our skill is great and we hone it in the Ring," he tosses his head indicating the arena across the valley, "which cuts into his profits. Trust no orc who loves gold." he advises you, "Nor grow to love it yourself, Hikal learnt that, to his cost…"

"What happened to him?" you can't help but ask.

"Rehgar owed him some sum and then tricked him into battle with one of his slaves. This slave proved far more skilled than Rehgar had indicated and killed Hikal." the Blademaster shrugs.

It seemed a dishonourable end for one so storied, but you supposed that was what Akinos is implying. The orc seems content at the silence that follows, watching his students before you speak again.

"I've been away for years and my father says there are renegades in the clan, what do you know of them?"

Akinos looks at you, then at Sorek, he motions for the Blackrock to leave.

Sorek understands the look and salutes, clashing fist against breast. "Will you spar with me when you're done? I have only these elders to test me!" he asks you with a grin.

Akinos laughs, "I'll test him before you do whelp, go knock the others down a few times!" and he returns the salute, then beckons you within the Hall, "This is not something to discuss with strangers." he murmurs, leading you upstairs to an empty chamber.
Except, as your eyes accustom themselves to the sudden gloom you realise its not empty at all, an orc kneels on a cushion, the ceremonial beads of the Blademasters turning over in his fingers as he murmurs, eyes closed in meditation. Before him is a sword, runes on its surface glowing slightly in the darkness. It's a magnificent blade, a great ringed sabre far more impressive than the now sundered weapon you'd taken from Baneshadow.

"Master Ronak." Akinos speaks, sitting beside the orc, you doing the same opposite him, "The son of Neeru would hear of Rahjak and the others."

The murmurs continue, but with a last clink Ronak turns over the last bead in his chain and opens cloudy white eyes. The Blademaster is blind you see but his eyes turn to you anyway, can he perceive you through some second sight?

"You come to hear of our dishonour?"

He doesn't seem hostile, just tired and while you can think of a few reasons this might be you approach him with the respect he's due as a master of his craft and no doubt a famous warrior within the clan. "I have returned after my Trials and if I intend to lead the clan one day I must know all about it. I already intend to track down the renegade warlocks who dishonour the Burning Blade but I've always looked up to the Blademasters and I'd see them to their rightful place once again the finest warriors in the Horde. I know nothing of this Rahjak, but if I should know of it I'd ask you to tell me so I might deal with him."

Ronak shakes his head, "Rahjak would kill you before you'd even drawn your sword, he was my equal in years gone by and now he exceeds me."

"Only in dishonour!" growls Akinos, breaking into the conversation.

Ronak looks at Akinos and then back to you, "Rahjak and the others seek skill, not honour. Once we were warriors as you say, now we've departed that path to become bodyguards, trainers… diplomats." he looks at Akinos with the last word, a hint of bitterness coming into his voice. "Very well," he continues, "You are the son of Neeru and perhaps you should know if you don't already… Rahjak and others, too many others, still walk the path of the Blademaster, the true path, following their blades, seeking battle and challenge, seeking the Breath of Eternity, the truest moment of battle. Thrall denied them this so they seek it elsewhere. They wander the land, battleseekers… deathseekers perhaps…"

"They attack caravans, whoever they can, to draw out the true warriors who defend them. Some have taken to theft, others leave goods lying where they fall and move on." Akinos says.

"There can be no honour in such banditry!" you exclaim, the very idea of a Blademaster taking to such activities offensive to you.

"We are dying young warrior." Master Ronak concludes, exhaustion in his tone, "Old, forgotten, rusted away to nothingness, a memory of our glory… Can you begrudge those who want to burn out rather than fade away?"

You speak with the Blademasters for a short time more but eventually depart, concerned by what you'd heard but no closer to a resolution. You return home and speak briefly with your father who questions you on your activities, seeming to be perfectly aware where you'd been and who you'd been speaking to. You wonder if he's had you followed, but there were plenty of ways to do so that you wouldn't have noticed, your father's divinations one of them and you realised it didn't matter really, he would think what he thought and you'd never acted with dishonour.

Next you decide to speak with the Shattered Hand. You have several goals, firstly, simply making contact with the Horde's intelligence service, an acquaintance you hope will prove useful in future. Secondly, trying to get some information on the places you're planning to go and the people you're planning to meet, or kill, specifically the renegades you've heard about. Lastly you assumed someone among the Shattered Hand will be able to translate the papers you took from the Kul Tirans.

As it turns out the Shattered Hand evidently expected you as you're welcomed one evening to their side of the Cleft, and even end up learning the words to one of their traditional songs 'Fourteen Ways to Skin a Dwarf' later that evening once the beer starts flowing. You spend most of the evening in a state of confusion and only clear up your knowledge of the clan during the next week as you speak more with the Shattered Hand. Firstly, you'd previously had the impression that the clan were a sad bunch, which appears to be true, but only for the older members. These older orcs sit by the fires, their skin horribly scarred by either their enemies or themselves, their right hands missing and an eccentric array of implements riveted into their stumps instead. You know the story of the Shattered Hand, of Kargath Bladefist who'd smashed his own hand with a rock to escape slavery and replaced it with a knife to overthrow his ogre captors. These older orcs are the remnants of the original Shattered Hand, slaves of Draenor, their traditions of self-mutilation ignored by the younger folk. The younger orcs are jollier, more gregarious and joined by other races, trolls especially well represented among them, with none of them showing the same mutilations their elders wear so dolefully.

Gordul, the leader of the Shattered Hand in Orgrimmar detaches one of his warriors, Kartha to answer your questions and assist you in the translations. Kartha is rather unsubtle for a supposed assassin and bears twin axes rather than a dagger. As appears to be common among the Shattered Hand she wears a blackened set of leather and chain but has yet to lower her veil in your presence. While you can hardly claim a great familiarity with women you can't help but consider unusual, though perhaps all women in her clan are?

"These I'll need to look over further, there are a few words I don't know, I think maybe they're specific terms of the Kul Tirans rather than the tongue of Lorderon." she tells you after sorting through the papers. There's a large pile of what she's described as irrelevant or useless material from diaries to personal letters, a smaller pile of documents which might prove useful describing certain matters but none of them urgent enough to examine at the moment, and finally the last portion that Kartha takes away to look over further, promising a report on them at a later date.

Gordul meanwhile speaks to you one afternoon regarding your own clan. "These rogue Blademasters are familiar to me," he remarks, fingering the hilts of his daggers, "Rahjak is the most dangerous, though there are two others, Sesk and Ishi, of note. Sesk is the brother of Gorn the General and I know they have a great hatred of each other. Ishi might be brought back, but the other two will end up dead." he remarks before pausing, "The warlocks meanwhile are a lesser problem, but have the potential to become a greater given enough time. Ultimately the Blademasters are single fighters, powerful ones, but they're alone and one day someone will get a lucky shot in… This Darkstorm you mentioned, I'm aware of him and he's certainly the most dangerous renegade in Durotar, as I remember he has about forty with him, fighters, a few warlocks, maybe some demons. Slay him and the rest will turn, some of them are just criminals and exiles with nowhere to go and we'll hunt them down easily enough. I've been surprised the Warchief hasn't sent a warparty to root them out actually, it would be bloody but at least we'd remove them. Perhaps with the peace in the north the Warsong will be sent."

With more information you return to your side of the Cleft and your own clan to plan your next move. You'd spoken with various people and you now had enough information to consider matters more fully. As the heir to the clan it was your duty to know about your people, in that at least your father had been right, and you'd set about the Cleft and further afield, speaking with various people and groups, gathering the information available to you and compiling it to try to understand the situation. You were the heir to your clan and few could openly deny you for fear of your father's wrath, but your end result is a lot of different stories, some contradictory, many relying on different perspectives and considerations, and not at all necessarily accurate. You'd hoped it would be far simpler, that you'd be able to reach a quick conclusion to understand who you needed to hunt down, but the reality is far more complex. You make the following observations:

  • The Blademasters as a cohort and tradition have largely fragmented into many groups. Some have remained attached to the Blackrock and the remnants of the Horde in the Eastern Kingdoms, some are battleseekers wandering in search of ways to test their skill, some like Gorn have found positions in the Horde's military hierarchy but still pay their respects to your father as chief, while others have taken up other positions. The reasons for the Blademasters' decline are complex and varied but include the internment of many by humans, the decline of shamanistic traditions and close connections with the Blackrock orcs which supported their activities, as well as the Warchief's public refusal to employ them, and subsequent pacifist policies.

  • The Burning Blade represent the most reliable cohort of demonic experts and warlocks on Kalimdor, but their loyalty is certainly more toward the clan and themselves than to the Horde. Some have broken away to delve deeper into the Fel, usually independently, though you suspect sometimes on your father's orders. The initial cohort of Blackrock warlocks that Gul'dan trained remain in the Eastern Kingdoms with their clan, and the warlocks of other clans have mostly joined the Burning Blade as they are unwelcome in other clans due to Thrall's policies. Due to their nature, many warlocks are ambitious and lustful for power. The warlocks of the Burning Blade are powerful, and are beginning to work independently to discover new uses of magic, rather than simply following in Gul'dan's footsteps.

  • You've heard occasional references to 'going east', a practice which apparently can bring knowledge and increased power in the Fel. Warlocks and warriors have departed and returned though you're not clear on where they've been. You know at least part of your clan are based in Desolace and you believe 'going east' refers to this.

  • Years ago several other races were accepted into the Burning Blade, bringing new traditions of magic including Troll demoniacs, human necrolytes and goblin demonologists. Under your father's policies these other races have steadily been pushed out.

  • All the shaman of your clan turned to warlock magics as the rest of the Horde's shaman did before the opening of the Dark Portal, however, subsequently no new shaman have emerged within the Burning Blade and any spiritually gifted children are instead pushed toward Fel magic.

  • The 'renegades' of your clan depend on who you speak to. To the Blademasters and the Shattered Hand the renegades are the wandering battleseekers who attack anyone who seems to put up a good fight. To your father the renegades are the warlocks which have been driven mad by Fel corruption. To Nazgrel the renegades are the parts of your clan still loyal to the Burning Legion.

The impression from your assessment of your clan isn't a good one. There's steady signs of decline from the departure of the Blademasters to the growth in power of the warlocks and the steady fragmentation of the older traditions of Draenor. The younger generations including yours had no memory of Hallvalor or Nagrand, no conception of a day when the Blademasters had been powerful and the spirits honoured. From your visit to the Shattered Hand you knew this problem had presented itself in other clans and you imagine something similar happening in other clans of the same position, specialised but small, like the Thunderlords. In a few years you didn't doubt that the clan might be absorbed fully by other groups or worse, fully fallen to the fel. Before you'd thought balancing tradition and demonic expertise would have been tricky, but now you saw your ambition of leading a united, powerful Burning Blade clan in even more peril than before.

Lastly you'd attempted to speak with your father regarding translating and learning from the magical tomes you'd taken from the watchtower. You make little progress in this and your father spends a lot of time speaking with various people and has little time for you at the moment. You do see him perusing the tomes a little though, flipping pages and having evidently broken the enchantment which was preventing you from even opening them. You also speak to him regarding your plans to hunt down the goblin Darkstorm which gets you a grunt of approval but little else. Evidently you need to prove yourself further before he's willing to bring you into his confidence.
 
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Hrrrm...
So what I'm seeing here, among other things, is this:
The Blademasters as they were...Can't exist in the Horde anymore. Much like the Japanese Samurai which they resemble, they find themselves in a world where they are increasingly ill-suited for and maligned as a result. The Warlock's strength and success, even after breaking with the Leigon makes them a HIGHLY tempting refuge but...Being servants of the Leigon, and bound to Fel corruption is the fate Grom only barely saved the orcs from.
We don't have another Hellscream who's up for doing something like that. Or rather, Garrosh would LOVE to, but he'd also rather not get the orcs bound to Fel again.
I'm in agreement with him.
Here's what I'm thinking.
Seeking out and putting down the rouge Blademasters sounds solid. But then there's warlocks like that Goblin.
Part of me REALLY wishes we could do a thing where we gather the Blademasters, point them at things like the Goblin or the Kul' Tiras humans, and let them die with honor, and then just...Work to redefine the Burning Blade clan. The Old ways may be lost, but the Clan need not continue to flail in the darkness...
But that's a problem for another day.
I think, I have half a plan.
For now, I'm thinking gathering up some of our fellow Blade-students, and go wandering for the Battleseekers. Once we've got a comparable force, assuming we don't lose track/start having leadership issues, we go after Darkstorm.
I figure it's best to leave Rahjak alone, if not avoid him- he sounds like he'd see us as another blade to test himself against, and like he'd not wait/want to discuss his path with us.
 
I think, I have half a plan.
For now, I'm thinking gathering up some of our fellow Blade-students, and go wandering for the Battleseekers. Once we've got a comparable force, assuming we don't lose track/start having leadership issues, we go after Darkstorm.
I think I agree, form a Blademaster Revivalist faction that also functions a a mobile strike force to hammer down on Rogue Warlocks and other enemies to "perfect our craft".

The problem is growing strong enough without getting killed by our father and his faction.
 
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