The World of Warcraft is before you, the wide plains of Kalimdor, the mountains of Alterac, the jungles of Stranglethorn. You are an Orc within this world, free to choose your destiny, but bound by convention and obligation. What will you do? Where will you go?
Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)
- Thread starter FractiousDay
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User Total FractiousDay 45 Doomed Wombat 2 Kir the Wizard 1 Nevill 2 Thanatosra 1 VagrantHero 1 -
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Some remarks on the current leading plans
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Merry Christmas all,
Results so far are as follows. In the event of a tie I'll probably break it with my own preference, not really sure what one does in such an instance. I'm going to close voting tomorrow morning I expect unless there's a lot of discussion going on in which case I'll extend. I thought I'd weigh in on a few of the points here that hasn't necessarily been considered by the options.
Firstly, I'd like to make it clear that some picks can 'cancel' each other out. For example, a few people have probably seen the +5CP of Hunted and jumped for it, not necessarily realising that this is pretty serious. Similarly, Faction Enemy and Steamwheel Debt will also potentially cancel out some options. Steamwheel is a particularly obvious one, because if you go to any goblin towns, or even just towns with a large goblin presence, they might take some of your stuff as payment of your debts. The authorities are going to largely ignore this because they don't really understand debt in monetary terms rather than as obligation and would see it as a private matter. Similarly, if you're being hunted by someone (or dare I say it something!) which wants to kill you then the friend you choose might also get ganked when the Scourge jump out from behind a bush.
Similarly, you can also cancel out things in a more positive manner. Diplomatic is particularly good for this because you could potentially resolve the Local Enemy and Bounty options peacefully by talking the relevant people down. For 'Bounty' you could say, for example, 'I've just been in basic training what could I possibly have done, I've been to busy for crimes' etc. Similarly, Merchantile+Steamwheel Debt could be worked off over a longer period, and it might even let you say 'actually let me go more into debt because we can work together later' or similar.
As I've mentioned before, you might be given some of the bonus items in future. The Flamebender tome is explicitly described as being handed down within the clan, so your father might give you it if you don't pick it now and you make him proud etc. Your clan might give you a sword, upgraded gear or even enchanted stuff if you prove you can handle it.
Also, I'm rather surprised that some of the options aren't being chosen. The travel voucher option would give you the fastest start if you wanted to just leave and go off adventuring, though obviously this would also take you away from your home and support structures etc.
Another point about items, given the heavily communal nature of Orcish society you also might have things confiscated, legitimately or otherwise if you aren't using them 'properly'. This might mean you're perceived as too young, weak, unwise or whatever for various items, and while Orcs generally don't steal things, they might think themselves more worthy of them. You can be conscripted and if some Horde officer sees a young orc with excellent equipment he might conscript you and send you off to the Barrens or Ashenvale to fight, which you could escape but with certain obvious consequences. This is particularly important with the mount option as mounts are relatively rare, which is why the mount option isn't higher, as it comes with its own obligations to feed it etc. If you're planning to do a lot of travelling, go with it, but if you're planning on sitting around doing training someone might come along and say you don't deserve the mount and that real warriors of the Horde need it. You're less likely to have specialised equipment confiscated, and you can always refuse, flee, or volunteer to serve as long as you can keep your stuff etc. Again we're exploring agency here, you're socially obliged to do certain things.
Similarly on CP costs, they vary depending on the items' value, rarity, utility and other things. The Flamebenders Tome would indeed be valuable, rare and useful, whereas something like a Shaman's Totem might be relatively more common, of less immediate use give you're not a Shaman (yet) and its not massively valuable. Items also aren't necessarily 'neutral'. The Flamebenders Tome and the Searing Collar are both Burning Blade items which may affect you, the word 'corrupt' is relevant here although it's not necessarily accurate.
I'll also make a few statements on the traits and the agency effects of them, some of this will be obvious, and I'm not surprised no one's chosen 'reverent' given it would be one of the more agency reducing traits. I'll say that Devious would probably currently provide the greatest utility, and would enable you to navigate the complex arrangements of Orcish obligation cultures more easily. It has general utility, but some immediate utility here as well. It would allow you to sort of do other trait stuff as well because it allows all methods, though especially indirect ones. Devious and Diplomatic are similar, but also pretty different. Devious would be more personally focused, 'how do I benefit', whereas diplomatic would be more communal, 'how do we benefit'. As some have noted, Vengeful is some good free points, though its not quite free, you would be compelled to avenge yourself on people that have wronged you, your clan, the Horde, whoever you identify with, even if you could gain a lot by cooperation etc, so its a double edged sword there.
I will say that Devious+Curious would be a particularly powerful combination. I'm not locking you into anything, this is Agency Quest, however the plans currently will certainly make you more inclined to go down particular paths, and for me to write what seems obvious. Keep in mind also that you've got the skills to consider, you have good combat skills and the utility skills of Persuasion and Scholarship, which would allow you to attempt at least to resolve issues using those skills. For example,
Warrior Scholar: Somewhat of a wanderer due to Curious, constrained by Clan obligations and not really able to avoid them without breaking them off significantly, wouldn't automatically follow orders like 'Traditional' might force you to, but hasn't got traits to modify orders much, though can try to resolve things peacefully vs enemies. Sometimes this won't be possible.
Rogue Son: Very interesting ways of dealing with obligations and navigating orcish culture, could potentially drop Flamebender's Tome and pick up 'Curious' to optimise the plan, as not currently inclined to go outside the existing Burning Blade traditions much for their own sake, rather than as a means for vengeance etc, and because you migth be able to get the Tome later. Vengeful creates interesting possibilities as well. If I was a quester I might suggest replacing Faction Enemy with Hunted, and adding Friend to have an outside source of help. However this doesn't mean you have to, its entirely your choice.
Nascent Spellblade: Given Alectai's mentions of using various compensators for weaknesses I'd point out that Honourbound can increase vulnerabilities substantially. For example, in Thrall and Garrosh's Mak'gora, Thrall cheated by using the elements, just as in Durotan and Gul'dan's own duel Gul'dan again cheated. Both of the victors used their magic, rather than simply martial power which is required, to fight. There was some speculation that Thrall lost his connection to the elements over that, and Honourbound would mean if someone less honourable challenges you to fight without your normal prep etc you'd find it difficult to refuse them. You've got 'Prudent' which would make you rush in less etc, but this doesn't stop people from trapping you with your Honourbound trait.
I'll also note that I'm quite interested in the friend option, and I'm inclined to make it the Mok'Nathal shaman, which likely means a direct relation to Rexxar. It sounds interesting to me, so if you want to choose that the friend in question would definitely be above average and pretty useful to you.
Again though, these are all your choices. If you have a specific idea of what you want to do then great, I'm able to oblige with various potential narrative paths, but just be aware there are some obligations you'll have almost immediately. For example when you get back to dad you'll probably be sent to kill some troggs who canonically got into Ragefire Chasm. If you're diplomatic that wouldn't help because they're Troggs, if you're curious or devious you might be able to go into areas you're not usually allowed to, like the demon summoning sections of RFC, which would probably be forbidden to you otherwise. To use another example,
You might be commanded to go deal with an ogre who's been making trouble or something. Generally speaking you'd be obliged to go an do this because you're from an authoritarian martial culture. You're commanded to bring back its head or something, with the implication being you've been ordered to fight it directly rather than trapping it or something.
Diplomatic: convince it to leave, speak to it to see why its there and resolve the problem, maybe even recruit it
Devious: kite it over to something dangerous, poison it or similar, then just claim you duelled it.
Honourbound: approach it openly and duel it (no special options really)
Brash: You'd have to charge at it immediately, potentially into any traps the ogre has set
Prudent: Scout it, find that its got traps or friends, go back and get reinforcements
Curious: You still have to kill it but you could also examine its stuff for magic loot or whatever
With any of these this just gives you more options than you've normally have, even if you're devious you can still choose to duel it if you want.
Questions welcome, as mentioned I'll close voting at some point tomorrow. Happy Christmas all!
Possible clan future interactions
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This is a legitimate view, but keep in mind if you keep intentionally not engaging with the clan you will eventually be exiled.
To use a couple of examples of exiles, Lantressor got exiled for being a half breed basically, while Fenris intentionally left his clan and joined another for political reasons.
There are various advantages to clans, and if you're useful you can be accepted to other clans. Fenris became the chief of the Thunderlords.
You might consider the following paths:
1. You don't engage with the clan, and are exiled, and potentially hunted down so they can get their magic book back.
2. You engage infrequently, you have a few people to help you out and access to services but nothing else, you lose your place as heir but they aren't hostile to you.
3. You engage to a limited extent, do missions, fight with them, learn from their blademasters and are trusted with some secrets, your place as heir is still there, but nothing happens with it really.
4. You engage a lot and start to be influential, you become a blademaster and flamebender, you're confirmed as heir and start being included in councils about the clans' future, your father might even step aside and you're able to influence the future of the clan, for example stepping away from the Burning Legion.
The Darkspears might have someone who can do that, but they aren't likely to. Of the vassal tribes of trolls under the Gurubashi, the Darkspears were the least powerful, and subsequently settled and lost their homes three times so won't have much infrastructure and might have lost a lot of their knowledge and stores of knowledge. Maybe they left some on the Echo Isles that you can have a look at?
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Notes on being a druid
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So one of the things I'm somewhat less sure of is how I as the QM should present information that is easily available to read up on, but that some questers are less aware of. I'll go a little bit into the specifics of being a druid now and the difficulties therein. As I mention in the class choice area, you don't need to single class it, and an Orc druid is unlikely to completely follow the same traditions as other druids. Druids follow particular animal spirits called 'Wild Gods', and an individual druid with serve and worship different gods. Druidism could also be described as the 'Church of Cenarius' and one of the first things the Orcs did upon getting to Kalimdor was to kill Cenarius.
Some individuals use a little bit of druidic magic without being full druids, most notably Varian Wrynn, the King of Stormwind. Here's a picture of him with his furries:
Varian has historically had problems with his temper and being a bit 'wolfy' in general. He doesn't worship the wolf god directly in the same way a Night Elf druid would, but be aware that being a 'Druid of the Pack' as the wolf form is called will have certain effects on you. Below my I go into some of the issues with trying to be a druid. This isn't to say you shouldn't choose it, this is Agency Quest after all, but you could potentially use only a bit of the magic, as part of the @BeepSmile plan to be a druid but also be primarily self serving (I'll go into motivations more later today), rather than be a druid in the Night Elf tradition and worship and serve the wild gods like the elves do.
As mentioned I know what the restrictions might be because I've played wow etc, but I'm aware not everyone has. For now I'll put it in a spoiler. If you want to read this that's fine, if you want to play the quest without the spoiler that's also fine.
Some individuals use a little bit of druidic magic without being full druids, most notably Varian Wrynn, the King of Stormwind. Here's a picture of him with his furries:
Varian has historically had problems with his temper and being a bit 'wolfy' in general. He doesn't worship the wolf god directly in the same way a Night Elf druid would, but be aware that being a 'Druid of the Pack' as the wolf form is called will have certain effects on you. Below my I go into some of the issues with trying to be a druid. This isn't to say you shouldn't choose it, this is Agency Quest after all, but you could potentially use only a bit of the magic, as part of the @BeepSmile plan to be a druid but also be primarily self serving (I'll go into motivations more later today), rather than be a druid in the Night Elf tradition and worship and serve the wild gods like the elves do.
As mentioned I know what the restrictions might be because I've played wow etc, but I'm aware not everyone has. For now I'll put it in a spoiler. If you want to read this that's fine, if you want to play the quest without the spoiler that's also fine.
1. The Tauren druids are a lesser tradition and have less knowledge than the Night Elves, therefore they might be able to give you the basics, but they won't be able to train you properly
2. The Tauren are not familiar with the 'Pack Form', that is to say, being a wolf-druid
3. The current leader of the Night Elf druids is xenophobic, and would not support the teaching of an orc druid
4. Orcs killed Cenarius, most elves wouldn't be willing to teach you and might even try to kill you to prevent such a dishonourable people as the orcs from learning druidism
5. The 'Pack Form', wolf stuff, is explicitly forbidden by the druid police. The only person who could overrule this is currently asleep (its a druid thing) and won't wake up for 10 years(ish). There are however 'druid heretics' who do wolf stuff, but you'd have to find them
6. Wolf stuff is forbidden for very good reasons, as it tends to drive druids made and turn them into mindless beasts. There are ways to avoid this however.
7. Being only a bit druidy like Varian is would allow you a moderate amount of power, but would require you to fulfil certain virtue checks to retain this power. Unless you get a handle on things it would consume most of your effort and you'd have very little time to do other stuff. Just like being a shaman means your main duties will be doing shaman things, so too would the quest reduce your agency by forcing you to go do druid stuff. Varian is a king and a warrior, not a druid, but in canon he still had to go on various vision quests etc.
8. Druids are one of the classes most susceptible to external corruption. Warlocks are frequently corrupted, but at least they choose to get corrupted due to their actions, a druid is explicitly a participant in the many thousands of years of the 'War of the Nightmare' which is a constant battle against corruption in the druid magical realm that you go to when you sleep.
9. Speaking of sleep, you might arbitrarily fall into a coma occasionally, more druidy magic = more chance of comas, the most powerful druids sleep for hundreds of years. I think that would probably make for a pretty boring quest so I don't think I'd actually make you go through that, but its something to note.
2. The Tauren are not familiar with the 'Pack Form', that is to say, being a wolf-druid
3. The current leader of the Night Elf druids is xenophobic, and would not support the teaching of an orc druid
4. Orcs killed Cenarius, most elves wouldn't be willing to teach you and might even try to kill you to prevent such a dishonourable people as the orcs from learning druidism
5. The 'Pack Form', wolf stuff, is explicitly forbidden by the druid police. The only person who could overrule this is currently asleep (its a druid thing) and won't wake up for 10 years(ish). There are however 'druid heretics' who do wolf stuff, but you'd have to find them
6. Wolf stuff is forbidden for very good reasons, as it tends to drive druids made and turn them into mindless beasts. There are ways to avoid this however.
7. Being only a bit druidy like Varian is would allow you a moderate amount of power, but would require you to fulfil certain virtue checks to retain this power. Unless you get a handle on things it would consume most of your effort and you'd have very little time to do other stuff. Just like being a shaman means your main duties will be doing shaman things, so too would the quest reduce your agency by forcing you to go do druid stuff. Varian is a king and a warrior, not a druid, but in canon he still had to go on various vision quests etc.
8. Druids are one of the classes most susceptible to external corruption. Warlocks are frequently corrupted, but at least they choose to get corrupted due to their actions, a druid is explicitly a participant in the many thousands of years of the 'War of the Nightmare' which is a constant battle against corruption in the druid magical realm that you go to when you sleep.
9. Speaking of sleep, you might arbitrarily fall into a coma occasionally, more druidy magic = more chance of comas, the most powerful druids sleep for hundreds of years. I think that would probably make for a pretty boring quest so I don't think I'd actually make you go through that, but its something to note.
Explanation of Motivations
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Edit note: Modified Mag'har and Mok'Nathal clans to prevent 'for the clan' motivation given they aren't proper clans.
As promised, here's a note on the motivation options. I've given you the following options and I'll use some examples here to clarify these.
Your actions will be limited by your motivations, and the next substantive updates' choices of traits. For example, sometimes you simply won't have the option to refuse or accept certain proposals. If you choose 'For the Horde' and the Warchief gives you an order, or even a request, you'll then have that as a mandatory action choice. Similarly, if you've picked 'For the Clan' and someone makes a proposal that you recognise will materially disadvantage your clan you will automatically refuse that request, though if you have certain traits you'll be able to refuse it in certain ways, such as false acceptance or more diplomatically refusing it.
You choosing one motivation will not prevent you from going against it sometimes, you aren't an automaton or a ascetic, and environmental factors will have effects on you, if you chose 'pride' as a trait for example you might seek to glorify yourself at the expense of the clan, for example 'I am strong' rather than 'My clan is strong'. Similarly, unless you have some sort of deceptive or self-serving trait its unlikely you'd question orders from superiors much which might leads to unfortunate circumstances if those orders are bad. We'll go into this more in the next post but generally you'll need certain traits to disagree with the standard orcish mindset of strength being the most important, or of certain actions being inherently dishonourable. Your motivations can change if you encounter specific circumstances.
You will not have solely one motivation, you're socialised to have all these motivations in most cases, and the origin you chose will reflect these automatically. For example, let's say you're a Warsong Warrior, by default your motivations might be Clan>Horde>Orcs>Yourself, because that's the culture of the Warsong orcs. However, lets say you're a particularly self-serving individual, you might choose 'Yourself' as your primary motivation, which would put that to the top of the list. Similarly, if you chose Frostwolf + Warlock you'd probably be an exile by default, so 'Clan' would come at the bottom of your list of motivations unless you specifically chose it because you want to prove yourself or something. Bigger more organised clans will inspire more loyalty than smaller ones, while some clans are more loyal to the Horde or to Orckind than others (most of the lesser clans). Currently 'Reverse Image' is in the lead as a vote, to say something about that the Mok'Nathal aren't really a clan so most activities wouldn't affect them, but you'd be more influenced toward helping the Horde in general over the Orcs because you're only half orc in the first place.
In general these are positive motivations. They make you more inclined to do things, rather than making you take negative action. Being loyal to yourself doesn't mean you'd be a murderhobo, but it does mean you'd think more carefully about who would actually benefit from what you're doing, and whether you want to expend the effort to do something in particular.
Let's go through the motivations then and then I'll use another example of a quest in Classic WoW to illustrate.
You'll prize cosmopolitanism more, be more accepting of other peoples, and look toward collective strength. However, you'll also be more inclined to involved yourself in things that really don't affect you. A specific example would be the various feuds among the trolls, and appeals toward your 'patriotism' for want of a better word would be received better. You would also be more conservative in politics because the Horde generally is, so you wouldn't immediately grasp the importance of innovations. You might not uphold the status quo all the time, but you'd be inclined to doing so.
You'd try to uphold specifically orcish culture, and favour the orcs over other races. You'll favour the orcish virtues of strength above others, and be inclined to distrust allies till they've proven themselves. You may be revanchist, wanting to bring back the Old Horde.
You'll favour the advancement of your own clan above that of the orcs generally. If for example the Horde needs some fighters if it'll bring your clan glory you'd probably go, but if its something like guard duty you'd probably refuse. The constitutional arrangements of the Horde don't allow Thrall to really 'order' people, he relies extensively on persuasion. Sometimes this motivation would bring you directly into conflict with other motivations, such as if you picked one of the specific clans which have conflicting motives like Shadowmoon, or even Burning Blade.
This one is a bit nebulous. We as players know about the threats to Azeroth, but you'd really only know in abstract about them. With this motivation you'd generally seek out 'problems' to solve, whether demons, elementals run amok or similar. You might spend time helping druids or shaman, or trying to sort the Wailing Caverns or similar. Sometimes your goals align, like the Barrens being green again being helpful for everyone, but this also means you'd be opposed to some things you might want to do otherwise. This doesn't force you to be an environmentalist, but it'll make you be suspicious of industrialisation because it upsets the elements etc. Having said that, I'd probably say the Iron Horde had a far better chance against the Burning Legion than Thrall's Horde ever did because they industrialised, but also messed up their planet.
This one gives you the most freedom. It's fairly self explanatory, and it doesn't prohibit you from helping others. If orcs in general are stronger you as an orc will benefit for example, this one would make you more inclined to seek personal forms of power though rather than institutional forms.
As promised, here's a note on the motivation options. I've given you the following options and I'll use some examples here to clarify these.
Your actions will be limited by your motivations, and the next substantive updates' choices of traits. For example, sometimes you simply won't have the option to refuse or accept certain proposals. If you choose 'For the Horde' and the Warchief gives you an order, or even a request, you'll then have that as a mandatory action choice. Similarly, if you've picked 'For the Clan' and someone makes a proposal that you recognise will materially disadvantage your clan you will automatically refuse that request, though if you have certain traits you'll be able to refuse it in certain ways, such as false acceptance or more diplomatically refusing it.
You choosing one motivation will not prevent you from going against it sometimes, you aren't an automaton or a ascetic, and environmental factors will have effects on you, if you chose 'pride' as a trait for example you might seek to glorify yourself at the expense of the clan, for example 'I am strong' rather than 'My clan is strong'. Similarly, unless you have some sort of deceptive or self-serving trait its unlikely you'd question orders from superiors much which might leads to unfortunate circumstances if those orders are bad. We'll go into this more in the next post but generally you'll need certain traits to disagree with the standard orcish mindset of strength being the most important, or of certain actions being inherently dishonourable. Your motivations can change if you encounter specific circumstances.
You will not have solely one motivation, you're socialised to have all these motivations in most cases, and the origin you chose will reflect these automatically. For example, let's say you're a Warsong Warrior, by default your motivations might be Clan>Horde>Orcs>Yourself, because that's the culture of the Warsong orcs. However, lets say you're a particularly self-serving individual, you might choose 'Yourself' as your primary motivation, which would put that to the top of the list. Similarly, if you chose Frostwolf + Warlock you'd probably be an exile by default, so 'Clan' would come at the bottom of your list of motivations unless you specifically chose it because you want to prove yourself or something. Bigger more organised clans will inspire more loyalty than smaller ones, while some clans are more loyal to the Horde or to Orckind than others (most of the lesser clans). Currently 'Reverse Image' is in the lead as a vote, to say something about that the Mok'Nathal aren't really a clan so most activities wouldn't affect them, but you'd be more influenced toward helping the Horde in general over the Orcs because you're only half orc in the first place.
In general these are positive motivations. They make you more inclined to do things, rather than making you take negative action. Being loyal to yourself doesn't mean you'd be a murderhobo, but it does mean you'd think more carefully about who would actually benefit from what you're doing, and whether you want to expend the effort to do something in particular.
Let's go through the motivations then and then I'll use another example of a quest in Classic WoW to illustrate.
You'll march under the symbol of the Horde. The Tauren and the Darkspear Trolls have helped the Orcs and you are stronger together than you are alone. Your diversity will bring you glory. However, greater integration also means you have a duty to help in situations that do not concern you, to resolve the ancient grudges of tribes far away, or assist in activities you find objectionable, such as the works of the Forsaken.
Strength and Honour. These are the only virtues worth respecting. Yes your allies have helped you in the past, but so did the Ogres and the Goblins in the First and Second Wars and where are they now?. Only Orcs can be trusted, only Orcs are strong. You'll fight for the benefit of your people first, and others second, as long as they don't stand in your way... However, while Orcs are truly a mighty people, you know that they are also constrained by tradition. You will honour these traditions, whether convenient or not.
While the Clan has diminished as the central political unit of Orcish culture over time, you were taught to follow your clan chief first, rather than your Warchief. Thrall is the leader of the Horde, and of the Orcs, but he is not the chief of your clan. While often the policies of clan and Horde align, sometimes they do not, and you may find your loyalties split...
You've observed that regardless of who's fighting, everyone seems to lose. There are great threats to Azeroth and you plan to stand against them, regardless of who you have to fight with, whether Orcs or otherwise.
For the Horde? Why? Why fight for Clan or even race? The only thing important is your own survival. You'll prioritise this over other allegiances, though this doesn't prevent you from supporting other causes as necessary.
Explanation of CP and debt consequences
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So as a maximum you could have gone 6 points into debt in this update, not counting your bonus point. If I 'd implemented this system from the start and you'd chosen something like Mok'Nathal you'd be another 2 points into debt due to the agency advantages of that choice. So lets say you were theoretically 8 points into debt at this point. Let's also say you took 'Warlock' which associated lack of responsibilities but pretty good power curve, that's another 3CP into debt perhaps for 11CP debt.
In the next update you'll be able to chose traits and some bonus stuff like gear, a pet, a mount, that sort of thing. Traits will be neither entirely beneficial or detrimental. For example you're already socialised to be brave, reasonably dutiful, traditional, spiritual and so on. If you chose 'traditional' again you'd become 'very traditional' then you'd oppose new things, promote revanchist or atavist thinking, and you'd be obliged to agree to anything an elder asked you or uphold anything that was some ancient pact etc. If you chose 'Brave' you'd become incredibly brave, again increasing obligations because you'd have to attack anything that threatened you even if it was very strong. These traits would aware CP.
Comparably there would be a load of traits which would cost CP, these might include 'curious', 'deceptive', 'diplomatic' or anything which gives you more agency. Curious would allow thinking outside the box, diplomatic would allow for more diplomatic options. These would also have mechanical effects just as the others would, eg brave giving bonuses against terror-inducing things.
So lets say you take 3 traits at 2CP each, for a total of 17CP debt. Lets then say you also took a load of bonuses like 'mount', 'pet' and 'warlock gear', perhaps at 2CP each. Then maybe you want to reroll 'spiritual potential' so you don't get warlock corruption anytime soon, and you also want to reroll 'magical potential' at a point each. You'd then be at 25CP debt in total. I've forgotten the class thing somewhere there but let's move on.
I don't intend to deliberately punish munchkining, feel free if there's an interesting plan like the 'Go out and learn' one, but I do intend there to be consequences for hubris. The purpose of this system, which I'll admit is just something I thought up rather than a regular questing system, is to ensure you take on obligations so that we can actually explore the themes of the quest. If you're entirely self-reliant because you've got all the resources etc then that's deliberately avoiding the purpose of the quest. Munchkin the character and the power, but try to engage with the impetus of the quest. CP debt and possible consequences should prevent this, but yea just to note it.
As for consequences, again because I've just designed this system recently they'd be fairly arbitrary. Lets say in debt terms, 5CP would be mandatory training or duties for either clan or Horde. 10 CP would be similar, but might include anti-Azeroth stuff like helping out the legiony part of the Burning Blade. 15CP would start to get into mind controlly areas, like the clan deciding they'd try that old experiment of pumping children full of fel energy or making you drink some demon blood to see if they can make a supersoldier, while more than 20CP would get into the sillier stuff like the Scourge or Twilight's Hammer or similar, maybe even Kul Tiras jumping out from behind a bush and kidnapping you, resulting in a significant diversion and difficulty getting any significant training at all.
I'm quite happy to take feedback on it, its the first quest I've run and I realise I've decided to run it in a weird way. I did struggle a bit in conceptualising how dice rolls actually worked. Eg, say there's a guard and you want to be let in, he's inclined not to let you in anyway, so should only a very high roll let you in, or should it automatically be a failure unless you've got a good reason, that sort of thing. For the purposes of this area specifically sometimes there'll be background rolls that decide whether, for example, the Quillboar happen across your group and attack you. You'd have no agency in that anyway, so it may as well be left to the dice. Having said that I'm also a decent writer so I don't really 'need' such a roll at that point. On the other hand I don't want to be accused of making things arbitrarily difficult for you because I keep throwing things at you. In any case I suppose I'll decide as I progress.
Oh and thanks for pointing the threadmark thing out
Thoughts on Orcish society
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So I'll probably bookmark this post as an info one about why the orcs are how they are.
Partly its definitely due to bad writing. Blizzard do some stuff well, but in general they aren't able to make the setting sufficiently cohesive to stand up to scrutiny, they focus far more on what's basically soap opera drama than they do on the sort of meaningful historical or at least fantastical authenticity that I think a lot of people want. As such, yes the orcs are genocidal etc because of bad writing, but I'll try and provide an explanation below for why this might be 'in universe'. Firstly, to address
I'll structure the rest of the answer around three points, the ability of cultures to change, to self-reflect, and geopolitical considerations.
This culture of valuing (martial) strength is pushed forward into the classic WoW period, but in general the Old Horde (that is the Orcs mainly) never really reach the stage where they could reasonably be called a state. There's no bureaucracy or professional military, taxation or similar to allow for other forms of power to develop such as institutional or bureaucratic power. As such the 'best', fastest and most sure way of becoming more powerful is through combat, battle and warfare, with a couple of side paths in magic etc.
Then Thrall turns up. Thrall is educated by humans, and then gets a very edited history of orcs and orcish culture from the Frostwolves and from Orgrim Doomhammer, neither of which presumably mentioned the whole 'paving a road using childrens bones' thing. As such Thrall fails to understand a couple of things. Firstly, he tries to map human culture onto the Orcs. This is partly successful because he specialises the clans more than Blackhand did, having the Shattered Hand as a police force and spies, using the Warsong as a military unit, using the Burning Blade as the demon police etc. He also tries to insert his supporters into positions of power, and changes some customs like (poorly) instituting gender equality. However, he never really understands how clans work, the Burning Blade say demon worshippers and there's no institutional inertia. When Garrosh turns up Thrall loses control of the Warsong because they answer to their chief now, just like a king is only able to control their direct vassals, not their vassals vassals.
Thrall isn't really ever taught how Orcish culture works by Drek'thar or Doomhammer, and is instead given a sort of edited version of events, missing out any of the dishonour and so on. He surrounds himself with unrepresentative orcs such as from the Blackrock or Frostwolf clans who clearly aren't able to or have no interest in changing stuff. As such Thrall doesn't really care to confront the Orcs about their past, he just assumes that they were all tricked by Gul'dan. This isn't true, for example when Grom drinks demon blood for the second time he says 'I need this to defeat Cenarius', which wasn't Grom's job, he was meant to get lumber and establish a forward base. However, due to the orcish culture because he's been opposed Grom thinking he 'needs' to be stronger regardless of the source.
Furthermore, there's not really an impetus for Thrall to do so. The orcs aren't doing any genocide at the moment (apart from the Quillboar but no one cares about them) and I'm not even sure he could do anything about them even if he wanted do given as we've established the Horde isn't a proper state, its a patchwork framework of unclear political and constitutional settlements because its development has been disrupted frequently. In the Classic period at least the Horde is beset by enemies and Thrall would have no interest in an internal fight which might endanger his position.
How might this be changed? How might you specifically change it if you wanted to? For one, there has to be a change to how Orcs acquire honour and glory, and progress in society. I'll bring the example of Star Wars in here, where a similar culture, the Mandalorians, has developed from a warlike culture to a bounty-hunting one, using their skills but doing so in a way that's acceptable and even praised by the rest of galactic society. The Horde need resources, specifically things like lumber and food. They get this by pushing into the lands around them, but they could also get it through trading. Now what do they have to trade? Primarily martial ability. The Orcs might become a mercenary state, exchanging soldiers for resources. This would create peace through interdependency between the Alliance and Horde, and would actually resolve some of the problems. It wouldn't necessarily deal with the genocidal impulses the Horde has due to culture, but it would give a release valve, and it would also allow for the greater development of different classes in Orcish society and means of advancement rather than just soldiering.
Partly its definitely due to bad writing. Blizzard do some stuff well, but in general they aren't able to make the setting sufficiently cohesive to stand up to scrutiny, they focus far more on what's basically soap opera drama than they do on the sort of meaningful historical or at least fantastical authenticity that I think a lot of people want. As such, yes the orcs are genocidal etc because of bad writing, but I'll try and provide an explanation below for why this might be 'in universe'. Firstly, to address
To give Blizzard the credit they deserve, since Warcraft II they've given the orcs a far more interesting history, just like they moved the Alliance away from the explicitly Christian iconography and terminology. The Warcraft Orcs are a legitimately interesting culture with their own history and customs, up there with the Orsimer from TES or the Orks from Warhammer. Orcs are frequently portrayed in a positive light, and although some are evil they're portrayed as a legitimate culture and people not just a mob race.
I'll structure the rest of the answer around three points, the ability of cultures to change, to self-reflect, and geopolitical considerations.
The Orcs went from being a fractious and combative culture hiding from larger and stronger opponents on Draenor (Arrakoa, Ogres, Gronn, Draenei), to a decentralised martial empire under Blackhand's Horde. In both cases the Orcs valued strength above all, which usually meant martial strength, but sometimes meant rogue type stuff or magical strength. Due to external pressures they were and are very traditional, probably because clans who tried to experiment weren't very successful and were destroyed. Anything 'weak' including half-breeds, disability or gentleness was looked down on, for example Gul'dan being exiled because he was disabled (looking at his art he has a hunched back and seems to have something going on with his arms).
This culture of valuing (martial) strength is pushed forward into the classic WoW period, but in general the Old Horde (that is the Orcs mainly) never really reach the stage where they could reasonably be called a state. There's no bureaucracy or professional military, taxation or similar to allow for other forms of power to develop such as institutional or bureaucratic power. As such the 'best', fastest and most sure way of becoming more powerful is through combat, battle and warfare, with a couple of side paths in magic etc.
Then Thrall turns up. Thrall is educated by humans, and then gets a very edited history of orcs and orcish culture from the Frostwolves and from Orgrim Doomhammer, neither of which presumably mentioned the whole 'paving a road using childrens bones' thing. As such Thrall fails to understand a couple of things. Firstly, he tries to map human culture onto the Orcs. This is partly successful because he specialises the clans more than Blackhand did, having the Shattered Hand as a police force and spies, using the Warsong as a military unit, using the Burning Blade as the demon police etc. He also tries to insert his supporters into positions of power, and changes some customs like (poorly) instituting gender equality. However, he never really understands how clans work, the Burning Blade say demon worshippers and there's no institutional inertia. When Garrosh turns up Thrall loses control of the Warsong because they answer to their chief now, just like a king is only able to control their direct vassals, not their vassals vassals.
Thrall isn't really ever taught how Orcish culture works by Drek'thar or Doomhammer, and is instead given a sort of edited version of events, missing out any of the dishonour and so on. He surrounds himself with unrepresentative orcs such as from the Blackrock or Frostwolf clans who clearly aren't able to or have no interest in changing stuff. As such Thrall doesn't really care to confront the Orcs about their past, he just assumes that they were all tricked by Gul'dan. This isn't true, for example when Grom drinks demon blood for the second time he says 'I need this to defeat Cenarius', which wasn't Grom's job, he was meant to get lumber and establish a forward base. However, due to the orcish culture because he's been opposed Grom thinking he 'needs' to be stronger regardless of the source.
Furthermore, there's not really an impetus for Thrall to do so. The orcs aren't doing any genocide at the moment (apart from the Quillboar but no one cares about them) and I'm not even sure he could do anything about them even if he wanted do given as we've established the Horde isn't a proper state, its a patchwork framework of unclear political and constitutional settlements because its development has been disrupted frequently. In the Classic period at least the Horde is beset by enemies and Thrall would have no interest in an internal fight which might endanger his position.
How might this be changed? How might you specifically change it if you wanted to? For one, there has to be a change to how Orcs acquire honour and glory, and progress in society. I'll bring the example of Star Wars in here, where a similar culture, the Mandalorians, has developed from a warlike culture to a bounty-hunting one, using their skills but doing so in a way that's acceptable and even praised by the rest of galactic society. The Horde need resources, specifically things like lumber and food. They get this by pushing into the lands around them, but they could also get it through trading. Now what do they have to trade? Primarily martial ability. The Orcs might become a mercenary state, exchanging soldiers for resources. This would create peace through interdependency between the Alliance and Horde, and would actually resolve some of the problems. It wouldn't necessarily deal with the genocidal impulses the Horde has due to culture, but it would give a release valve, and it would also allow for the greater development of different classes in Orcish society and means of advancement rather than just soldiering.
Acquisition, Loss and Utility of Traits
- Location
- United Kingdom
Happy New Year all, may it be better than the last!
I imagine everyone's been busy with the festivities so I'm leaving the voting open on the next update for a few more days. I thought I'd take this opportunity to better explain the mechanical and narrative effects of traits, which should also bump the thread which is a happy bonus.
All About Traits
I dislike many elements of the traditional, specifically the ck2, type quest. One of these is the effective schizophrenia of characters who are directed by a crowd of people, the questers. I tend to find this leads to the motives and history of the character being irrelevant and decreases the weight of the narrative. For example, if the characters has the trait 'hates orcs' and has a history of negative encounters by orcs, the questers can still choose not to tackle the orcs if they don't feel like it at the time.
That's the 'positive' side, in that I think for narrative purposes the traits of a character should direct the actions to a limited extent. You also have the negative side where I don't think all actions should be available to a character if they don't have the correct traits. For example, usually if you wanted something in real life you'd have to buy it, and therefore work to acquire currency. Generally people don't think 'I'll steal it' or go rob people for it. That's because you're socially acclimatised to a working culture and theft or raiding isn't something you'd ordinarily consider. Sometimes in quests I find it frustrating that a character who otherwise is a warrior but not much else will suddenly decide they want to adopt a mercantile outlook.
In this quest you're an orc. While the Warcraft orcs aren't exactly the same as other orcs in other franchises they follow the broad archetype of raiding barbarians. You exist in a tribal society with a barter economy, operating on a collective honour culture of social debt and obligation, with the overlaid nebulous desire for 'strength' present in all areas. There are some modifications to this general culture such as specific clans or political factions, but broadly speaking the character is unable to engage in mercantile, indirect or underhand methods due to their socialisation.
This system is not immutable. Gul'dan disrupted it with demonic magic, changing the definition of strength. Thrall failed to disrupt it and Garrosh succeeded in doing so, both in different ways.
The Traits system of this quest modifies the main character's general socialisation, allowing or preventing certain actions to give or remove agency, thus exploring the theme of the quest.
Your 'default' traits
As I've mentioned elsewhere, you're an orc, meaning you're socialised to be reasonably honourable, to obey clan chief and warchief, to support the community, to fight openly and to value physical strength first. By default you won't have options that go outside this because the character simply wouldn't think to do so. For example, you don't really understand money because you're from a primitive communalist society which doesn't use currency. Similarly, you simply wouldn't consider underhand actions to be an acceptable.
This has both narrative and mechanical effects. For example, currently you have four obligations, some more direct than others:
How you acquire and lose traits in this system
I don't intend to railroad the quest. While you'll be obliged to carry out certain actions and will likely be exiled if you keep disobeying superiors, that may be a consequence you're willing to accept. Similarly, in cases of ambiguity in orders or conflicts of obligations the questers, and through your decisions the MC, can make decisions and retain agency. You can go against your traits, but if you do you might lose them with various consequences. This might be some sort of abstraction, like a -10 to all rolls because you're depressed, consider how Saurfang became suicidal during BfA because his worldview had broken down. Alternatively, this might be narrative, with you being unable to connect with the Elements till you've gotten yourself sorted out.
At the end of each arc there'll be a chance for self-reflection and to acquire or lose traits. For example, if you consistently examined new things, talked to strangers and learnt about them, and tried adopting new methods of warfare or similar, you'd probably be given the opportunity to acquire the 'Curious' trait. Similarly, if you frequently engaged in mercantile activity, spoke to merchants or associated with them, or were involved in the purchase or sale of goods then you'd be offered 'Mercantile' as a trait. These would have direct effects, for example having the 'Curious' trait would instantly give you some basic knowledge about an area, current events, and similar things, whereas if you weren't a curious person you just wouldn't be interested. 'Mercantile' would give you an understanding of supply and demand, and enable you to hunt out some mercantile opportunities which again if you didn't have it you just wouldn't be interested in.
On the other hand, if you spent an arc disobeying orders, not helping the community, sitting on your own doing your own things then you'd lose traits like 'Honourbound'. You may think 'that's fine, that will give us more agency', which yes it would, but it would also mean you get a reputation as an honourless coward and if you kept doing it be subject to outlawry and exile. This reputation doesn't mean everyone will instantly magically know who you are, but it might mean that people have heard of a young orc with a fiery sword and therefore refuse service or hospitality to anyone matching that description, and maybe even attack you if they consider your actions objectionable enough. As mentioned losing significant traits like Honourbound will have greater effects on the character's psyche than losing a trait like Mercantile would.
A current example
To put some of this into immediate perspective on the actions you have at the moment, you're currently hanging out with the trolls. They have a few specialities that they wouldn't mind teaching in general, like some alchemy or stealth stuff, but they wouldn't want to teach you their voodoo stuff because its a cultural secret. Currently you look around you and might identify something like stealth as something to learn, but you wouldn't think to even try to learn voodoo. You also have the Flamebender's Tome, and because you already own it and its a Burning Blade artefact, you're already interested in it. Comparably, if you encountered a paladin you wouldn't really be interested in the Light currently, and only after several encounters might you start thinking about it to counter it.
There's also a load of blackpowder weapons from the attack previously, but you don't currently have any option to examine these because you just aren't curious enough about them or their use. You think of them as a human weapon which is therefore irrelevant to you, an orcish warrior.
You also don't have any actions to try and see who the attackers were, possibly search through their belongings, see if the Trolls are planning on interrogating one of the attackers' spirits or similar, again because you're just not interested, as far as you're concerned that's for the elders to concern themselves with, not for you to investigate yourself.
In this manner a write-in might symbolise the MC independently considering something. I'm happy for you to use write-ins which is why I give the option, but I may reject them if they're too out of character.
Caveats
There are a few caveats to this system, partly because social interactions and culture are complex, partly because I'm still considering it as a system and how best I can use it to explore the themes of agency.
For one thing, desperation and necessity will always be able to disrupt things. Generally your character will remain self-interested and therefore will be able to break through the limits of traits in desperate situations. If the only way to defeat X enemy is through underhand means you would be able to so.
In general, think about the actions you choose in various plans. If you have particular questions such as 'what are the trait effects of this choice' then I'm happy to weigh in.
I imagine everyone's been busy with the festivities so I'm leaving the voting open on the next update for a few more days. I thought I'd take this opportunity to better explain the mechanical and narrative effects of traits, which should also bump the thread which is a happy bonus.
All About Traits
I dislike many elements of the traditional, specifically the ck2, type quest. One of these is the effective schizophrenia of characters who are directed by a crowd of people, the questers. I tend to find this leads to the motives and history of the character being irrelevant and decreases the weight of the narrative. For example, if the characters has the trait 'hates orcs' and has a history of negative encounters by orcs, the questers can still choose not to tackle the orcs if they don't feel like it at the time.
That's the 'positive' side, in that I think for narrative purposes the traits of a character should direct the actions to a limited extent. You also have the negative side where I don't think all actions should be available to a character if they don't have the correct traits. For example, usually if you wanted something in real life you'd have to buy it, and therefore work to acquire currency. Generally people don't think 'I'll steal it' or go rob people for it. That's because you're socially acclimatised to a working culture and theft or raiding isn't something you'd ordinarily consider. Sometimes in quests I find it frustrating that a character who otherwise is a warrior but not much else will suddenly decide they want to adopt a mercantile outlook.
In this quest you're an orc. While the Warcraft orcs aren't exactly the same as other orcs in other franchises they follow the broad archetype of raiding barbarians. You exist in a tribal society with a barter economy, operating on a collective honour culture of social debt and obligation, with the overlaid nebulous desire for 'strength' present in all areas. There are some modifications to this general culture such as specific clans or political factions, but broadly speaking the character is unable to engage in mercantile, indirect or underhand methods due to their socialisation.
This system is not immutable. Gul'dan disrupted it with demonic magic, changing the definition of strength. Thrall failed to disrupt it and Garrosh succeeded in doing so, both in different ways.
The Traits system of this quest modifies the main character's general socialisation, allowing or preventing certain actions to give or remove agency, thus exploring the theme of the quest.
Your 'default' traits
As I've mentioned elsewhere, you're an orc, meaning you're socialised to be reasonably honourable, to obey clan chief and warchief, to support the community, to fight openly and to value physical strength first. By default you won't have options that go outside this because the character simply wouldn't think to do so. For example, you don't really understand money because you're from a primitive communalist society which doesn't use currency. Similarly, you simply wouldn't consider underhand actions to be an acceptable.
This has both narrative and mechanical effects. For example, currently you have four obligations, some more direct than others:
- Follow Gadrin's suggestion to go to Echo Isles
- Assist Vark with his patrols
- Deliver your reports to the relevant people in Razor Hill
- Return to your father and clan
How you acquire and lose traits in this system
I don't intend to railroad the quest. While you'll be obliged to carry out certain actions and will likely be exiled if you keep disobeying superiors, that may be a consequence you're willing to accept. Similarly, in cases of ambiguity in orders or conflicts of obligations the questers, and through your decisions the MC, can make decisions and retain agency. You can go against your traits, but if you do you might lose them with various consequences. This might be some sort of abstraction, like a -10 to all rolls because you're depressed, consider how Saurfang became suicidal during BfA because his worldview had broken down. Alternatively, this might be narrative, with you being unable to connect with the Elements till you've gotten yourself sorted out.
At the end of each arc there'll be a chance for self-reflection and to acquire or lose traits. For example, if you consistently examined new things, talked to strangers and learnt about them, and tried adopting new methods of warfare or similar, you'd probably be given the opportunity to acquire the 'Curious' trait. Similarly, if you frequently engaged in mercantile activity, spoke to merchants or associated with them, or were involved in the purchase or sale of goods then you'd be offered 'Mercantile' as a trait. These would have direct effects, for example having the 'Curious' trait would instantly give you some basic knowledge about an area, current events, and similar things, whereas if you weren't a curious person you just wouldn't be interested. 'Mercantile' would give you an understanding of supply and demand, and enable you to hunt out some mercantile opportunities which again if you didn't have it you just wouldn't be interested in.
On the other hand, if you spent an arc disobeying orders, not helping the community, sitting on your own doing your own things then you'd lose traits like 'Honourbound'. You may think 'that's fine, that will give us more agency', which yes it would, but it would also mean you get a reputation as an honourless coward and if you kept doing it be subject to outlawry and exile. This reputation doesn't mean everyone will instantly magically know who you are, but it might mean that people have heard of a young orc with a fiery sword and therefore refuse service or hospitality to anyone matching that description, and maybe even attack you if they consider your actions objectionable enough. As mentioned losing significant traits like Honourbound will have greater effects on the character's psyche than losing a trait like Mercantile would.
A current example
To put some of this into immediate perspective on the actions you have at the moment, you're currently hanging out with the trolls. They have a few specialities that they wouldn't mind teaching in general, like some alchemy or stealth stuff, but they wouldn't want to teach you their voodoo stuff because its a cultural secret. Currently you look around you and might identify something like stealth as something to learn, but you wouldn't think to even try to learn voodoo. You also have the Flamebender's Tome, and because you already own it and its a Burning Blade artefact, you're already interested in it. Comparably, if you encountered a paladin you wouldn't really be interested in the Light currently, and only after several encounters might you start thinking about it to counter it.
There's also a load of blackpowder weapons from the attack previously, but you don't currently have any option to examine these because you just aren't curious enough about them or their use. You think of them as a human weapon which is therefore irrelevant to you, an orcish warrior.
You also don't have any actions to try and see who the attackers were, possibly search through their belongings, see if the Trolls are planning on interrogating one of the attackers' spirits or similar, again because you're just not interested, as far as you're concerned that's for the elders to concern themselves with, not for you to investigate yourself.
In this manner a write-in might symbolise the MC independently considering something. I'm happy for you to use write-ins which is why I give the option, but I may reject them if they're too out of character.
Caveats
There are a few caveats to this system, partly because social interactions and culture are complex, partly because I'm still considering it as a system and how best I can use it to explore the themes of agency.
For one thing, desperation and necessity will always be able to disrupt things. Generally your character will remain self-interested and therefore will be able to break through the limits of traits in desperate situations. If the only way to defeat X enemy is through underhand means you would be able to so.
In general, think about the actions you choose in various plans. If you have particular questions such as 'what are the trait effects of this choice' then I'm happy to weigh in.
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Horde clans and bureaucracy
- Location
- United Kingdom
So thanks for that, it's one of the ways I like to worldbuild and explore the agency within the story. There's stuff going on that doesn't necessarily involved you, the society will not remain static and you might have effects on things.
In the game the factions have to be mechanically identical because of the present gaming trend toward players being able to always experience everything. The Kor'kron become a generic horde military unit deployed to every front rather than a specific bodyguard unit, because the Alliance have a similar unit with far more justification given the professional militaries of the various Alliance nations. Both factions have access to basically the same sort of stuff, when the Horde got a big fleet the Alliance had to have one as well in BfA, each faction has elves, and all elves an be high elves if they want though the customisation options. There's commentary about things like Skyrim vs Morrowind where in Skyrim you can do all the quests and join all the factions, whereas in Morrowind you're forced to choose between factions with mutually exclusive goals and customs.
Think I'll threadmark the clan bit for later reference:
The Horde started out as hunter-gatherer family community groups, living in a state of primitive communism without currency or any real specialisation of profession (clans). They became stronger over time, and formed into the first iteration of the Horde when they needed to fight the Ogres. Then once they'd fought them they disbanded and went back to being clans. Around this time some clans started specialising in certain ways, eg Burning Blade, but these were more cultural traditions than specialisations. Then Gul'dan and Blackhand form the Old Horde, the first real iteration, with a Warchief and so on as central authority, a shaman council etc, this changes Orcish culture a bit because of the institution of centralised hierarchy. Blackhand ordered the smallest tribes to specialise to be effective, and used the larger tribes as the main parts of his army. The Old Horde eventually gets defeated on Azeroth etc and goes through a couple more political changes but they aren't significant at this time, however, all this time tribes are working together more and sometimes some tribes are put in command of others, thus breaking down the family ties more. Some clans are weakened and absorbed by others, while other clans are created by splitting one clan into two etc, with Blackhand giving his sons a sub-clan to run, with later splits in remaining Blackrock clan to 4 parts based on professions.
Then the experience of the Alliance internment camps really changes the Horde social structure. Orcs are split up, moved from place to place, their weapons or other cultural implements taken away and similar, many parents are dead and children brought up by other clans, so someone might be born into one clan, then grow up as another, then join another one after that because they've escaped a camp or something. What really defines a Thunderlord? The ancient hunting traditions of Draenor? Well you're on azeroth and you're among Warsong Orcs, do you maintain your traditions somehow or integrate? Probably the later.
As such during the current period, after Thrall leads the orcs to Kalimdor and sets up a new Horde etc there's broadly three categories of clans.
1. Clans maintaining their identity due to power/size/specialisation (Blackrock and Dragonmaw), freedom from captivity while others were interned (Warsong) or independence generally (Frostwolves). These however are somewhat different, the Warsong in the modern Horde are more of a large military unit with a lot of family interrelations, while the Frostwolves or Dragonmaw are probably the only clan who maintain the clanny nature of the earlier organisation of orcs.
2. Clans which maintain some of their traditions, but really are more of specific forces now, including the Burning Blade for demon stuff, Shattered Hand for stealth and Thunderlord for beastslaying/taming. These clans are small, highly specialised and their cultural traditions are the only thing that's let them survive as political units. The Burning Blade specifically are a good example where there's a core of aged Blademasters, but the younger generation are mostly warlocks and generic warriors. Within a couple of generations if they kept as they are they'd just become the organisation in the Horde dedicated to anti-demon activity, without any of the of the familial bonds. This is what's happened to the Shattered Hand who've started accepting non-orcs.
3. Clanless orcs, some of them the remnants of clans, others never in clans, others still a amalgamation of various clans. For example, say an internment camp riots and one particular orc starts leading the former prisoners. This leader manages to maintain command over these prisoners and eventually they end up in Durotar, settling around some particular place, or staying as a military unit. This doesn't really become a clan, but not does the leader try to impose their traditions on others. You start to see a unified 'orcish' culture, especially because Thrall is pushing this from above because he doesn't massively identify with a clan and knows about the disadvantages of clans. There are some problems with this, for example it creates a lot of poverty because the normal mechanisms of clan protection etc have been violently removed and now there's a lot of young clanness orcs competing for opportunities, and because there aren't enough they go off raiding.
What I've not mentioned yet is that there's always been non-orc members of the Horde. While previously they fit in independently, the situation of the Orcs in Kalimdor is that sometimes you'll get a load of random people turning up who don't have their own racial commanders, and therefore fall under whatever Horde leadership there is. Thrall and others realise the need to adopt new methods for dealing with these various problems, but given that half of them aren't even literate (clan culture etc) its been quite difficult for them. Notably, there's a need to deal with a non-clan, racially heterogenous population, as well as dealing with a variety of goods and products, the easiest way of doing so is with currency. The Horde also needs to fund, resource and man expeditions to far flung places. Who do you send to garrison Kargath in the Badlands? You can't send a single clan as you would previously because they don't really exist anymore, so you send a clan and racially diverse group which can operate under the authority of a unified commander. That's how new organisations like the Kor'kron get formed, they're highly inspired by the former clan organisation but they're far closer to professional military units than they are the old Draenor family groups.
Comparably the Alliance are massively different. At the lowest levels of development they're feudal with clear but complex hierarchical, mercantile and religious chains of authority, and at the higher levels of development they're starting to get into nation-state territory with the centralisation of authority under a king.
I'll go into timeline in another post, but everyone feel free to ask any questions about this stuff.
Slavery and Horde internal politcs
- Location
- United Kingdom
Orcs don't institutionally practice slavery no. There's nothing in canon to support this. However, due to their focus on strength and so on slavery isn't necessarily opposed. Overtaking an enemy and enslaving them to do menial work would be perceived as worthy and reasonable to most orcs, but they have somewhat of a cultural bias against it due to recent events. Some clans, notably the Shattered Hand have specific anti-slavery ideals because they were originally slaves, whereas others don't really mind it like the Blackrock (and maybe Warsong).
Others though, like Reghar, were former slaves themselves and therefore see it as perfectly permissible to enslave others.
Others still perceive slavery as morally objectionable, like Thrall does, again because he was a slave.
What this means in practice is that the Orcs don't have slave markets or routine slave hunting or slave taking operations, but they do have individuals or communities who keep slaves. Thrall's decided that he can't really be bothered to do anything about it given the difficulty in imposing his will on clans which might be thousands of miles away. Keep in mind that the Orcs aren't a self-reflective or even a particularly political civilisation. There's not a lot of political discussion or debate that goes on regarding these subjects, its pretty hierarchical, but also pretty dispersed, as such the question 'do the orcs practice slavery' really has to be broken down, such as 'what do you mean practice' 'what do you mean slavery' 'what do you mean 'the orcs'' and so on.
Orcs generally had enough enemies on Draenor that they didn't need to fight each other much, and therefore didn't build up many deep enmities. Not have they really done so on Azeroth. Clans which betrayed as a whole, like the Stormreavers, have a sort of generalised cultural enmity to all other tribes, same for Twilight's Hammer and others. Some tribes are disliked like Bonechewer because of the cannibalism, some tribes are much more respected like Blackrock because they've always been the strongest clan, or Shadowmoon when they were still around because they were the spiritual leaders of the orcs. There's certainly bad blood between some tribes who competed on Draenor, like Frostwolves vs Thunderlords, or Bonechewer and Bleeding Hollow, but these feuds have largely self-selected out. For example the last two mentioned there are still on Draenor, everyone who liked Blackhand stayed in with the Blackrock, everyone who didn't like those clans or Blackhand and his policies left to go with Thrall. Similarly, there's enough space for clans to go off and do stuff on their own, they're not crammed into the same space anymore.
On relations with other races, goblins are disliked but necessary to the economy, humans have a fairly mixed reception, sometimes respected, sometimes hated, elves are generally feared and hated, Tauren are almost universally liked because they're chill and don't compete in any way, trolls somewhat similar but the orcs have a longer history with them, so some clans like Bleeding Hollow specifically don't like trolls because the BH tried to conquer stranglethorn.
Keep in mind that on Kalimdor at least the Orcs utterly dominate the other races. There aren't more than 10k darkspear, probably less, and probably not more than 20k tauren, again probably less. Orcs are probably a good 75k, if not more. I'm sort of guessing these numbers, Warcraft has a big problem with timescales and constant '90% of the population were killed by X'.
Both the Tauren and Darkspear largely keep to themselves, the Tauren are in Mulgore and concentrate their power there, the Darkspear do the opposite and spread themselves out. Both races contribute specific things to the horde, the Tauren with druids for example.
As for 'sway', Vol'jin, probably pretty sensibly, has made himself Thrall's advisor, which is why he's not in Sen'jin being in charge. Thrall is pretty young and values the experience of his advisors, who generally speaking don't disagree because they're largely from the same honourable, military, high status background. Magical experts are listened to when there's no one else, for example Runetotem can show up and say 'plz help with my druid stuff' and the others will do so because Runetotem is the chief druid in the Horde. There aren't really any wedge issues, though things like Forsaken membership, industrialisation and so on are the issues which might cause disagreement but at the moment nothing radical is being proposed. If comparably the warlocks got really powerful again for some reason then the other races would probably try and persuade them against it, but there aren't the same issues that come up that did in the Alliance, eg taxation, what to do with Alterac, what to do with the orcs.
To answer the question directly, there isn't much disagreement and there isn't much sway because the societies just aren't as involved as they would be normally. Commerce doesn't really take place, its a lot of tribal subsistence and very basic international institutions.
Timeline, timescales and levelling
- Location
- United Kingdom
Thought I'd bump the thread again with another's infopost, this time on the timeline.
This post will discuss the timeline, timescales and levelling possibilities. I don't mean actual levelling, rather I mean the growth in power of the character. These two points are linked as it'll obviously take time for the character to become stronger.
Timeline
In terms of the timeline, as of turn 4 you're now in the vague period after the Third War but before the Opening of the Gates of Ahn'qiraj known as 'WoW Classic'. It's been about 5 years since the end of the Third War, and about 3 years since the events of Frozen Throne including Arthas becoming Lich King etc. In general everyone is recovering, but there are the rumours of the dangers to come, for example, strange bugs have been seen all over the south of Kalimdor, black dragons have been seen around the Eastern Kingdoms, and the Scourge seem to be more active.
The past remains unchanged, though I might interpret things differently to what's strictly canon because Warcraft has a problem with realistic timescales and population numbers. The main character has limited knowledge, as do other characters in the setting. Furthermore, while I might foreshadow some things, other things may emerge without warning due to parties being sneaky etc. After the next chapter I'm going to roll for events in the outside world, a roll which will be repeated once per arc. This simulates the agency of other actors in the setting without me having to plan everything out.
The future of this quest's world remains highly mutable. Firstly, various parties, the Burning Legion and the Old Gods the most prominent of them, are plotting to destroy or corrupt Azeroth. These parties will continue with their machinations and these will move the plot along. Canonically, basically all the conflict in Classic is the Old Gods messing about, poking things and causing chaos, weakening the world to more easily corrupt it. However, I don't want you to think there's a timer and that you'll necessarily fight them in sequence. Several actors are preparing plots and will begin operations in the near future, and may act sooner or later depending on their plans. For example, Deathwing is currently recovering in Deepholme, and due to the Nexus War weakening Azeroth he manages to break out, causing the Cataclysm. If for whatever reason the Nexus War doesn't happen it would probably take Deathwing longer to break though and cause the Cataclysm, and if Deathwing himself was killed before he's able to attack then the Cataclysm won't occur (or at least it won't in the same way). Similarly, Pandaria was revealed because of the Cataclysm disrupting its magical mist, so if the Cataclysm doesn't occur the Pandaria is likely to remain hidden for longer.
There are no stations of canon, but there are the existing plots of enemies. You probably won't get powerful enough to disrupt any of the raid type bosses from Classic, for example the combined Alliance and Horde forces are probably still going to try and open the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj to deal with C'Thun. Your job is to resist these foes and their plots, however, you might fail in certain battles and you can't be everywhere at once. Understand that the world will be moving along without you, wars will begin and end, nations will rise and fall. You might be involved with these, and the more powerful you become the more you'll become involved. In general, expect to confront the various threats to Azeroth (from expansions and otherwise) at some point, but don't be surprised if the details are different, or if canon gets thoroughly derailed over time.
Timescales
Warcraft has ridiculous timescales. Expansions supposedly happen roughly every 2 years which for the technology presented is utterly farcical and would lead to massive depopulation and devastation. It's silly to have Saurfang be presented as an old orc in Classic and have him still able to fight on the front lines in BfA to use one example. I'm perfectly happy to write a quest that goes on in universe for years as there's plenty of stuff to do, but just be aware there's not going to be this stasis. People and armies will take time to move across the world, you can't teleport everywhere and rare resources will actually be rare. There's something to be said for some characters having various magical enhancements, but yes some characters you know will retire eventually rather than staying in the same position forever.
In general you can base long term plans around threats emerging roughly when they do in canon. For example, in a few years you might hear that the Gurubashi have unified the tribes of Stranglethorn and plan to summon the blood god Hakkar. You can plan that it'll take them that long to conduct various military operations and so on, though as mentioned this might slow down or accelerate based on various factors.
However, within these timescales you have the potential to effect change depending on your power level. If you remain a wandering adventurer as some questers have suggested then you'll have far less impact on larger events than you might as a commander or leader in your faction.
The timescales also depend on the success of this quest, currently we seem to be doing moderately well, but if we continue to do well then I'll start to plan things further in advance, start moving to 6 month rather than 6 week turns, that sort of thing. I read Advisor Quest recently and as mentioned in the first post that's the one that gave me the idea for this quest about agency. In Advisor Quest I think about 10 years have passed since the start, so that's the sort of progress I'd be hoping for.
Levelling
This brings us onto how you actually impact things. Currently you're a young adult, probably 15 or so, but in a martial society where children grow up fast. If you became a wandering adventurer you wouldn't affect things much, you might change a couple of minor things but you just wouldn't have the influence to make significant long term change.
On the other end of the scale becoming Warchief is entirely achievable. If you engage well with the clan your father might step aside for you to become chief, or split off a bit of his clan to give you an independent command like Blackhand did for his children. Once you're a clan chief, and you've honour, experience and the respect of the Horde, Thrall might consider you to take over from him when he retires to do shaman things. Alternatively, some stuff's recently been said about redeeming the Dark Horde or the Black Dragonflight, well you could challenge Rend to Mak'gora and take over the orcs of Blackrock Mountain and bring them back into the Horde.
That's the political power you might have, control over institutions, troops and resources. Comparably, you can also accumulate other forms of power. If you became an expert demonslayer your advice will likely be sought by the leaders of factions and you may be able to influence parties in this manner.
Given all the threats on Azeroth and beyond I'd certainly encourage you to seek out ways to make yourself stronger. As of turn 4 you're as good a swordsman as any professional soldier, but you just got beaten up by 4 guys who were all professional soldiers themselves.
In general going out and doing stuff will give more experience than training or studying, though you will have to train new skills to get the basics. Similarly, training and resources can most easily be found in cities rather than when you're wandering about in the wilderness. This means you'd acquire combat experience faster in something like gladiatorial combat or warfare rather than practicing with others. This is also much more interesting for me to write about rather than 'and then you trained more'.
You might consider the political route to become stronger, getting your own guys to fight others, you might consider the physical route, the classical Blademaster using magic to enhance themselves, its up to you. Keep in mind resources will obviously be easier to get as a more politically powerful figure. You'd be able to command people to gather materials for you rather than doing it yourself.
I can think of several ways to make you stronger physically, these include but aren't limited to fel infusion, demon blood, alchemy, Lightforging, Titanforging, Elemental Ascendance, good loot like enchanted items, and others. If you associate with magically powerful individuals, gods and other stuff I like the idea that their magic has an effect on you.
To give some indications of what you might become, see here for a mid-level shaman multi-classing into arcane magic to enhance their shamanism, and see here for what you might look like if you get involved in high-level stuff.
Questions and reflections welcome on any of this so I can add any clarifications to the info post.
This post will discuss the timeline, timescales and levelling possibilities. I don't mean actual levelling, rather I mean the growth in power of the character. These two points are linked as it'll obviously take time for the character to become stronger.
Timeline
In terms of the timeline, as of turn 4 you're now in the vague period after the Third War but before the Opening of the Gates of Ahn'qiraj known as 'WoW Classic'. It's been about 5 years since the end of the Third War, and about 3 years since the events of Frozen Throne including Arthas becoming Lich King etc. In general everyone is recovering, but there are the rumours of the dangers to come, for example, strange bugs have been seen all over the south of Kalimdor, black dragons have been seen around the Eastern Kingdoms, and the Scourge seem to be more active.
The past remains unchanged, though I might interpret things differently to what's strictly canon because Warcraft has a problem with realistic timescales and population numbers. The main character has limited knowledge, as do other characters in the setting. Furthermore, while I might foreshadow some things, other things may emerge without warning due to parties being sneaky etc. After the next chapter I'm going to roll for events in the outside world, a roll which will be repeated once per arc. This simulates the agency of other actors in the setting without me having to plan everything out.
The future of this quest's world remains highly mutable. Firstly, various parties, the Burning Legion and the Old Gods the most prominent of them, are plotting to destroy or corrupt Azeroth. These parties will continue with their machinations and these will move the plot along. Canonically, basically all the conflict in Classic is the Old Gods messing about, poking things and causing chaos, weakening the world to more easily corrupt it. However, I don't want you to think there's a timer and that you'll necessarily fight them in sequence. Several actors are preparing plots and will begin operations in the near future, and may act sooner or later depending on their plans. For example, Deathwing is currently recovering in Deepholme, and due to the Nexus War weakening Azeroth he manages to break out, causing the Cataclysm. If for whatever reason the Nexus War doesn't happen it would probably take Deathwing longer to break though and cause the Cataclysm, and if Deathwing himself was killed before he's able to attack then the Cataclysm won't occur (or at least it won't in the same way). Similarly, Pandaria was revealed because of the Cataclysm disrupting its magical mist, so if the Cataclysm doesn't occur the Pandaria is likely to remain hidden for longer.
There are no stations of canon, but there are the existing plots of enemies. You probably won't get powerful enough to disrupt any of the raid type bosses from Classic, for example the combined Alliance and Horde forces are probably still going to try and open the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj to deal with C'Thun. Your job is to resist these foes and their plots, however, you might fail in certain battles and you can't be everywhere at once. Understand that the world will be moving along without you, wars will begin and end, nations will rise and fall. You might be involved with these, and the more powerful you become the more you'll become involved. In general, expect to confront the various threats to Azeroth (from expansions and otherwise) at some point, but don't be surprised if the details are different, or if canon gets thoroughly derailed over time.
Timescales
Warcraft has ridiculous timescales. Expansions supposedly happen roughly every 2 years which for the technology presented is utterly farcical and would lead to massive depopulation and devastation. It's silly to have Saurfang be presented as an old orc in Classic and have him still able to fight on the front lines in BfA to use one example. I'm perfectly happy to write a quest that goes on in universe for years as there's plenty of stuff to do, but just be aware there's not going to be this stasis. People and armies will take time to move across the world, you can't teleport everywhere and rare resources will actually be rare. There's something to be said for some characters having various magical enhancements, but yes some characters you know will retire eventually rather than staying in the same position forever.
In general you can base long term plans around threats emerging roughly when they do in canon. For example, in a few years you might hear that the Gurubashi have unified the tribes of Stranglethorn and plan to summon the blood god Hakkar. You can plan that it'll take them that long to conduct various military operations and so on, though as mentioned this might slow down or accelerate based on various factors.
However, within these timescales you have the potential to effect change depending on your power level. If you remain a wandering adventurer as some questers have suggested then you'll have far less impact on larger events than you might as a commander or leader in your faction.
The timescales also depend on the success of this quest, currently we seem to be doing moderately well, but if we continue to do well then I'll start to plan things further in advance, start moving to 6 month rather than 6 week turns, that sort of thing. I read Advisor Quest recently and as mentioned in the first post that's the one that gave me the idea for this quest about agency. In Advisor Quest I think about 10 years have passed since the start, so that's the sort of progress I'd be hoping for.
Levelling
This brings us onto how you actually impact things. Currently you're a young adult, probably 15 or so, but in a martial society where children grow up fast. If you became a wandering adventurer you wouldn't affect things much, you might change a couple of minor things but you just wouldn't have the influence to make significant long term change.
On the other end of the scale becoming Warchief is entirely achievable. If you engage well with the clan your father might step aside for you to become chief, or split off a bit of his clan to give you an independent command like Blackhand did for his children. Once you're a clan chief, and you've honour, experience and the respect of the Horde, Thrall might consider you to take over from him when he retires to do shaman things. Alternatively, some stuff's recently been said about redeeming the Dark Horde or the Black Dragonflight, well you could challenge Rend to Mak'gora and take over the orcs of Blackrock Mountain and bring them back into the Horde.
That's the political power you might have, control over institutions, troops and resources. Comparably, you can also accumulate other forms of power. If you became an expert demonslayer your advice will likely be sought by the leaders of factions and you may be able to influence parties in this manner.
Given all the threats on Azeroth and beyond I'd certainly encourage you to seek out ways to make yourself stronger. As of turn 4 you're as good a swordsman as any professional soldier, but you just got beaten up by 4 guys who were all professional soldiers themselves.
In general going out and doing stuff will give more experience than training or studying, though you will have to train new skills to get the basics. Similarly, training and resources can most easily be found in cities rather than when you're wandering about in the wilderness. This means you'd acquire combat experience faster in something like gladiatorial combat or warfare rather than practicing with others. This is also much more interesting for me to write about rather than 'and then you trained more'.
You might consider the political route to become stronger, getting your own guys to fight others, you might consider the physical route, the classical Blademaster using magic to enhance themselves, its up to you. Keep in mind resources will obviously be easier to get as a more politically powerful figure. You'd be able to command people to gather materials for you rather than doing it yourself.
I can think of several ways to make you stronger physically, these include but aren't limited to fel infusion, demon blood, alchemy, Lightforging, Titanforging, Elemental Ascendance, good loot like enchanted items, and others. If you associate with magically powerful individuals, gods and other stuff I like the idea that their magic has an effect on you.
To give some indications of what you might become, see here for a mid-level shaman multi-classing into arcane magic to enhance their shamanism, and see here for what you might look like if you get involved in high-level stuff.
Questions and reflections welcome on any of this so I can add any clarifications to the info post.
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