Feels a bit too early to multiclass to me, and I expect that this comes with an opportunity cost (i.e., our time commitment will take away from other activities that I consider more relevant to us right now). I have nothing against learning about shamanism right now, though.
Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)
- Thread starter FractiousDay
- Start date
- Fantasy
[X] Plan In Progress
I agree that we need to focus on the tome for now. leaving is a bit iffy to me, but I see the logic.
On the multi-class thing, I mostly want shamanism for it's implied buffs on interacting with the elements. We can use it as a secondary buffing class for the more esoteric Burning Blade stuff.
I agree that we need to focus on the tome for now. leaving is a bit iffy to me, but I see the logic.
On the multi-class thing, I mostly want shamanism for it's implied buffs on interacting with the elements. We can use it as a secondary buffing class for the more esoteric Burning Blade stuff.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[X] Plan Look See
-[X] Scout the abandoned Tirasgarde watchtowers: You realise that there might be enemy documents such as orders or maps, or simply other items of interest like armour in a few of the abandoned Tirasgarde watchtowers and wonder whether it would be worth setting off to see what can be found.
-[X] Socialise with the new arrivals including Vok'fon or the Orcish warband.
-[X] Socialise with Vark
-[X] Study the historical and scholarly elements of the Flamebender's Tome such as its description of Draenei and Ogre societies and magics.
-[X] Shamanism: You can use your favour from Vornal to take another try at learning more about the Elements and forming a connection with one of them.
-[X] Further investigate the Flamebender's Tome, a book detailing some of the magical traditions of your clan. You've read through most of it and have a good idea of what it contains, you choose to investigate the Burning Blade Medallion and the Minor Reagents.
-[X] Scout the abandoned Tirasgarde watchtowers: You realise that there might be enemy documents such as orders or maps, or simply other items of interest like armour in a few of the abandoned Tirasgarde watchtowers and wonder whether it would be worth setting off to see what can be found.
-[X] Socialise with the new arrivals including Vok'fon or the Orcish warband.
-[X] Socialise with Vark
-[X] Study the historical and scholarly elements of the Flamebender's Tome such as its description of Draenei and Ogre societies and magics.
-[X] Shamanism: You can use your favour from Vornal to take another try at learning more about the Elements and forming a connection with one of them.
-[X] Further investigate the Flamebender's Tome, a book detailing some of the magical traditions of your clan. You've read through most of it and have a good idea of what it contains, you choose to investigate the Burning Blade Medallion and the Minor Reagents.
- Location
- United Kingdom
Very much so. If you spend most of your time training to be a warrior, you'll be busy sparring, training your body, learning riding maybe, maintaining your kit, that sort of thing. If you wanted to multiclass you can do that a bit without much problem, for example taking an action to practice shooting a gun doesn't make you a hunter, it makes you a warrior with a gun. Comparably Shaman would probably be the multiclass which takes up the most time given all the reagent hunting, vision quests, mediating with elemental stuff, that sort of thing.
This is also important if you ever get command authority. Spending all your time being a general or a merchant or otherwise directing others will also take time which will take away from your proficiency as a fighter. As I mentioned at the start of this quest, this is the Batman problem.
I'm rather interested in what you guys think being a shaman involves, and I'll say now that while you could indeed get some good buffs, that might be a problematic way of thinking about that particular avenue of magic.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The current vote count is: 4 for Plan In Progress and 2 for Plan Look See. Skewed, but it could be rebalanced. Decisions, decisions...
I'll try to go against the flow, but also leave a suggestion for those who follow the flow, namely "look for lore on medallions, and be more wary about it".
- We should know what happens in the outside world before going to Razor Hill to the clan. Therefore, socialising with the new arrivals including Vok'fon or the Orcish warband is a good idea.
- If we understand what happens among the Kul Tyrans, we'll know what they are up to and have another perspective on the outside world. Grok'mash will investigate the Tyrasgarde watchtowers, with the idea of sharing this intel with people of the Horde (better the Horde than those demon-worshippers of the clan, father included). However if push comes to shove he will also mention it to the clan to better justify his absence.
Scouting is a mild risk, but not as risky as picking up the medallion while being ignorant of its properties (read the book, first. Examine later) especially because we have just trained in stealth.
- Studying history & traditions has value in itself, and may provide us with legal defense for whenever we disobey clan orders in the name of the greater good, like we did just now by staying at Sen'jin.
- Finally, we should search for lore on the enemy artifact known as The Medallion. When wounded, Grok'mash has time to reminisce, and remembers the vicious wannabe demon-worshipper in the Valley of Trials. What if a demon is spying on him through the medallion? What if it pushes people to follow the Fel, and the Valley worshipper was a goodman orc once, before being corrupted by it? Before even touching it, he examines the Tome for references about medallions and their significance. Who knows, maybe one day he can make his own medallion that is not this probably corrupted artifact. Depending on what he finds, burying away the medallion when traveling is a viable option.
[X] Plan Look See
[X] Scout the abandoned Tirasgarde watchtowers: You realise that there might be enemy documents such as orders or maps, or simply other items of interest like armour in a few of the abandoned Tirasgarde watchtowers and wonder whether it would be worth setting off to see what can be found.
-[X] Socialise with the new arrivals including Vok'fon or the Orcish warband.
-[X] Socialise with Vark
-[X] Study the historical and scholarly elements of the Flamebender's Tome such as its description of Draenei and Ogre societies and magics.
-[X] Further investigate the Flamebender's Tome, a book detailing some of the magical traditions of your clan. You've read through most of it and have a good idea of what it contains, you choose to investigate the Burning Blade Medallion and the Minor Reagents.
Plan In Progress just looks at the medallion and the reagents, but without the right attitude and the lore, it does not seem a good idea to me.
Moreover, I don't think there is any need for generic reading, if with the other action we are already studying history to become a loremaster / lawyer.
I'll try to go against the flow, but also leave a suggestion for those who follow the flow, namely "look for lore on medallions, and be more wary about it".
- We should know what happens in the outside world before going to Razor Hill to the clan. Therefore, socialising with the new arrivals including Vok'fon or the Orcish warband is a good idea.
- If we understand what happens among the Kul Tyrans, we'll know what they are up to and have another perspective on the outside world. Grok'mash will investigate the Tyrasgarde watchtowers, with the idea of sharing this intel with people of the Horde (better the Horde than those demon-worshippers of the clan, father included). However if push comes to shove he will also mention it to the clan to better justify his absence.
Scouting is a mild risk, but not as risky as picking up the medallion while being ignorant of its properties (read the book, first. Examine later) especially because we have just trained in stealth.
- Studying history & traditions has value in itself, and may provide us with legal defense for whenever we disobey clan orders in the name of the greater good, like we did just now by staying at Sen'jin.
- Finally, we should search for lore on the enemy artifact known as The Medallion. When wounded, Grok'mash has time to reminisce, and remembers the vicious wannabe demon-worshipper in the Valley of Trials. What if a demon is spying on him through the medallion? What if it pushes people to follow the Fel, and the Valley worshipper was a good
[X] Plan Look See
[X] Scout the abandoned Tirasgarde watchtowers: You realise that there might be enemy documents such as orders or maps, or simply other items of interest like armour in a few of the abandoned Tirasgarde watchtowers and wonder whether it would be worth setting off to see what can be found.
-[X] Socialise with the new arrivals including Vok'fon or the Orcish warband.
-[X] Socialise with Vark
-[X] Study the historical and scholarly elements of the Flamebender's Tome such as its description of Draenei and Ogre societies and magics.
-[X] Further investigate the Flamebender's Tome, a book detailing some of the magical traditions of your clan. You've read through most of it and have a good idea of what it contains, you choose to investigate the Burning Blade Medallion and the Minor Reagents.
Plan In Progress just looks at the medallion and the reagents, but without the right attitude and the lore, it does not seem a good idea to me.
Moreover, I don't think there is any need for generic reading, if with the other action we are already studying history to become a loremaster / lawyer.
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Enthusiast#117
This is not the Profile you are looking for
- Location
- United States
[X] Plan In Progress
- Location
- Missouri
[X] Plan Look See
In down with this one, wish we could try to lean on our favor to make it easier to connect with the spirits eith that septa.
In down with this one, wish we could try to lean on our favor to make it easier to connect with the spirits eith that septa.
Alright, that's the bit that sold me on Look See. What was that line from Fallout 2? 'Ignorance of the law is no excuse, while knowledge of it will often provide you with one.'
I think? It's been over a decade.
[X] Plan Look See
- Location
- United Kingdom
Razor Hill is a large crossroads town, with a lot of military activity and therefore some rumours. Socialising would indicate a much longer time spent with them, such as hanging out in the evenings with them or taking meals with them and you'd be able to listen to various conversations. Rexxar is also there so he'll have news of further off places.
It's an interesting argument, but be careful with such assumptions. I'm happy to answer specific questions from the character's perspective on this, but keep in mind the orcs are usually uninterested in legal issues, they just don't have the culture for it. Traditions are certainly important, but they value strength most of all and ignore traditions if it suits them, for example all the shaman abandoning the elements to be warlocks instead was a massive tradition break but they still did it.
If you choose to leave early it would reflect doing all other things first, like scouting the towers, and then leaving for Razor Hill. If you want you can write in 'go to towers and then on to razor hill' which will save some time but not cover the towers as extensively. If you do so I'll probably give you an extra action next turn because you saved time using this method.
What I appreciate most about the way you present the Horde is that it actually does feel like a tribal confederation based on honor, with a very distinct honor culture. Unlike World of Warcraft, where they felt like a reskinned Alliance, for a lack of a better word.
This brings up an interesting question: you mentioned earlier that there is a nascent 'Horde bureaucracy.' Does this mean that the Horde, as a whole, is beginning its long trek from a tribal confederation to a more regimented and centralized society?
For that matter, what is our timeline with respect to the setting? "vanilla' WoW? Will we follow the general Warcraft story line?
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Horde clans and bureaucracy
- Location
- United Kingdom
So thanks for that, it's one of the ways I like to worldbuild and explore the agency within the story. There's stuff going on that doesn't necessarily involved you, the society will not remain static and you might have effects on things.
In the game the factions have to be mechanically identical because of the present gaming trend toward players being able to always experience everything. The Kor'kron become a generic horde military unit deployed to every front rather than a specific bodyguard unit, because the Alliance have a similar unit with far more justification given the professional militaries of the various Alliance nations. Both factions have access to basically the same sort of stuff, when the Horde got a big fleet the Alliance had to have one as well in BfA, each faction has elves, and all elves an be high elves if they want though the customisation options. There's commentary about things like Skyrim vs Morrowind where in Skyrim you can do all the quests and join all the factions, whereas in Morrowind you're forced to choose between factions with mutually exclusive goals and customs.
Think I'll threadmark the clan bit for later reference:
The Horde started out as hunter-gatherer family community groups, living in a state of primitive communism without currency or any real specialisation of profession (clans). They became stronger over time, and formed into the first iteration of the Horde when they needed to fight the Ogres. Then once they'd fought them they disbanded and went back to being clans. Around this time some clans started specialising in certain ways, eg Burning Blade, but these were more cultural traditions than specialisations. Then Gul'dan and Blackhand form the Old Horde, the first real iteration, with a Warchief and so on as central authority, a shaman council etc, this changes Orcish culture a bit because of the institution of centralised hierarchy. Blackhand ordered the smallest tribes to specialise to be effective, and used the larger tribes as the main parts of his army. The Old Horde eventually gets defeated on Azeroth etc and goes through a couple more political changes but they aren't significant at this time, however, all this time tribes are working together more and sometimes some tribes are put in command of others, thus breaking down the family ties more. Some clans are weakened and absorbed by others, while other clans are created by splitting one clan into two etc, with Blackhand giving his sons a sub-clan to run, with later splits in remaining Blackrock clan to 4 parts based on professions.
Then the experience of the Alliance internment camps really changes the Horde social structure. Orcs are split up, moved from place to place, their weapons or other cultural implements taken away and similar, many parents are dead and children brought up by other clans, so someone might be born into one clan, then grow up as another, then join another one after that because they've escaped a camp or something. What really defines a Thunderlord? The ancient hunting traditions of Draenor? Well you're on azeroth and you're among Warsong Orcs, do you maintain your traditions somehow or integrate? Probably the later.
As such during the current period, after Thrall leads the orcs to Kalimdor and sets up a new Horde etc there's broadly three categories of clans.
1. Clans maintaining their identity due to power/size/specialisation (Blackrock and Dragonmaw), freedom from captivity while others were interned (Warsong) or independence generally (Frostwolves). These however are somewhat different, the Warsong in the modern Horde are more of a large military unit with a lot of family interrelations, while the Frostwolves or Dragonmaw are probably the only clan who maintain the clanny nature of the earlier organisation of orcs.
2. Clans which maintain some of their traditions, but really are more of specific forces now, including the Burning Blade for demon stuff, Shattered Hand for stealth and Thunderlord for beastslaying/taming. These clans are small, highly specialised and their cultural traditions are the only thing that's let them survive as political units. The Burning Blade specifically are a good example where there's a core of aged Blademasters, but the younger generation are mostly warlocks and generic warriors. Within a couple of generations if they kept as they are they'd just become the organisation in the Horde dedicated to anti-demon activity, without any of the of the familial bonds. This is what's happened to the Shattered Hand who've started accepting non-orcs.
3. Clanless orcs, some of them the remnants of clans, others never in clans, others still a amalgamation of various clans. For example, say an internment camp riots and one particular orc starts leading the former prisoners. This leader manages to maintain command over these prisoners and eventually they end up in Durotar, settling around some particular place, or staying as a military unit. This doesn't really become a clan, but not does the leader try to impose their traditions on others. You start to see a unified 'orcish' culture, especially because Thrall is pushing this from above because he doesn't massively identify with a clan and knows about the disadvantages of clans. There are some problems with this, for example it creates a lot of poverty because the normal mechanisms of clan protection etc have been violently removed and now there's a lot of young clanness orcs competing for opportunities, and because there aren't enough they go off raiding.
What I've not mentioned yet is that there's always been non-orc members of the Horde. While previously they fit in independently, the situation of the Orcs in Kalimdor is that sometimes you'll get a load of random people turning up who don't have their own racial commanders, and therefore fall under whatever Horde leadership there is. Thrall and others realise the need to adopt new methods for dealing with these various problems, but given that half of them aren't even literate (clan culture etc) its been quite difficult for them. Notably, there's a need to deal with a non-clan, racially heterogenous population, as well as dealing with a variety of goods and products, the easiest way of doing so is with currency. The Horde also needs to fund, resource and man expeditions to far flung places. Who do you send to garrison Kargath in the Badlands? You can't send a single clan as you would previously because they don't really exist anymore, so you send a clan and racially diverse group which can operate under the authority of a unified commander. That's how new organisations like the Kor'kron get formed, they're highly inspired by the former clan organisation but they're far closer to professional military units than they are the old Draenor family groups.
Comparably the Alliance are massively different. At the lowest levels of development they're feudal with clear but complex hierarchical, mercantile and religious chains of authority, and at the higher levels of development they're starting to get into nation-state territory with the centralisation of authority under a king.
I'll go into timeline in another post, but everyone feel free to ask any questions about this stuff.
Well, I'll be damned. Using historical materialism to build a setting.
Alright, who is willing to step up to the Sisyphean task of helping to reform the Horde?
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
We replace Garrosh when Thrall gives up.
- Location
- United Kingdom
The flavour of this story is indeed historical materialism, as well as international historical sociology and other flavours of political marxism. Comparably in my story about a Soviet Stargate Program I used Combined and Uneven Development, though I must admit not to as great an extend as I'd wanted to.
In general The Political is distinctly absent in many mediums where even the most basic addition would improve the worldbuilding significantly. Some games examine it, apparently the Witcher is good with international relations and its magic system having interesting political stuff, I've not played it so not sure, but otherwise you just get the fantasy racism without any of the political realities.
hapcelion
The Abyss gazed back
- Location
- n/a
alternatively, we make the situation better so that he doesn't have to give up in the first place
- Location
- United Kingdom
I'll go into this more in the timeline info post tomorrow, but there are some things it's going to be difficult to change.
Also, in light of said post, could everyone submit some questions regarding the timeline, your activities and their effects on other events etc please, this will help me structure my post and provide answers
- Location
- Texas
[X] Plan Look See
hapcelion
The Abyss gazed back
- Location
- n/a
by timeline, you mean in future or in the past?
Because, I'm assuming the past was sort of like canon, but the future is far more mutable and that you're only using the future expansions for ideas of what's to come rather than trying to tread stations of canon.
- Location
- Missouri
I suppose it's a time of scale before you run into the whole everyone is aged and old by the time things get around to current events. I've in mind that we are basically young adult in years. Question related to that is by what metric should we be planning things around, will there be a ten year gap between events of classic to the events of Burning Crusades? 5? etc. Would also be asking do we have a chance to changing say internal politics in a reasonable manner that could relate to effects the Horde have a major hand in? I'd imagine that things that are basically natural disasters or even say invasions of third parties would be impossible to prevent without either reaching such a status of power that attempting to use it all would lead to pesky reality collapses.
First time posting on SufficientVelocity. I have been watching this quest for some time now. Though I don't know how to participate. I do have a question: Would it be possible to recruit, in a way, members of the Stormreavers? They are a maritime clan, despite being made of Necrolytes and Warlocks on top of being the personal organization of Gul'Dan. It might make for an interesting interaction. Thoughts?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean it might be possible to recruit them as mercenaries if we have enough gold and reputation.
I'm not sure if they are relevant anymore but aren't they Freelance mercenaries in nature? I might be wrong though.
I am not sure. I checked the wiki to find examples of Stormreavers hiring themselves out. Could not exactly find it. At least not in Warcraft III mercenary camps. Though, I do recall recruiting a Stormreaver in the Founding of Durotar bonus campaign. I think it would be interesting to recruit a Necrolyte. Those guys somehow use the power of Shadow(void) to conduct necromancy. I find that to be quite interesting. Somehow, Gul'dan was able to use Shadow to raise the dead, without using the energies of Death magic. Shadow and Death are similar, but not the same; So I find that Void is SOMEHOW able to pull of similar results to puzzling and interesting. Recruiting on of those guys could be a good first step to maybe, just MAYBE, bringing the Stormreavers into the Horde. Though how that turns out is up in the air, aside from most of the other orcish clans rather miffed, to say the least.