Yeah, that's the thing I don't get... what did she get from ratting on us to Horra? If it's true that she doesn't like Horra, why would she do that? She doesn't gain anything from it. Like, she didn't rat us out immediately, yet at the same time she was fine with ratting on us when we were gone. Is she simply trying to weaken both of us?
Perhaps it was something to make Horra more willing to go to the thing, as a "i gotcha and will pull an reverse on you!"?
Also, just because she is his daughter doesn't mean Horra would be kind to her.....
By way of a tragic accidental stumbling face first into Sagaseeker, I presume

Edit: By design we're going to limit the scope of this assbe-

She knew about Drysalt
Chron... please, don't jump to conclusion. We do not know when the switch happened.
Also, keep in mind, the question is how she knew the Owl was Halla.

Shroudsight might let you see through stealth magic, but it's not Soulsight, she shouldn't have immediately deduced this to be someone she'd never met before.

Well, unless Folkmarr told them about this, which is going to leave him really eating all the shit.
Perhaps she saw the connection between the Owl and Halla going back to our farm?
Nah, she needs to die.

Full stop, she aided and abetted whatever the fuck Drysalt was up to with his games with Horra. If she could spot and ID Hallas owl, theres no way she wouldnt have noticed that various bullshot Drysalt apparently got up to on Horras homestead

She's a Problem


Let alone missed that her brother had been replaced by a form shifted meat puppet controlled by someone else
CHRON? DO NOT JUMP TO CONCLUSION!!!!
Oh shit.

Her perception is that good, she has Shroudsight apparently that lets her pierce disguises and stealth magic.

And she didn't say a damn thing about Hasvir being killed and replaced apparently.
ALECTEI? NOT YOU TOO!!!!

Please, don't. let's at least hear her out before deciding killing her.
 
ALECTEI? NOT YOU TOO!!!!

Please, don't. let's at least hear her out before deciding killing her.

I mean, they're not wrong. Unless Hasvir got kidnapped and replaced by the water puppet on their way here, Veny should've been able to tell that Hasvir was gone.

...Unless there was some sort of illusion hiding it... which I believe Blackhand actually mentioned there to be. Huh.

'A shapecrafted water puppet of some kind, perhaps even with a kind of illusory shroud laid over it. Seeing that puppet actually jogged my memory somewhat. That sack you have? I've seen similar things in use before in certain estates. If it's at all like the ones that I've seen, then any commands it has been given will have been rendered null and void by it running out of fuel.'

No, he mentioned that it might've had an illusory shroud laid over it. We do know that Seersight can be fucked with, as seen with how Horra hid his sanctum from the Seeress' Farsight. So either the puppet was hidden from Veny's eyes, Hasvir got snatched on the way to the Thing, or Veny is in cahoots with Drysalt.

Possession I think, remember, the Troll we tricked said it was "Very Un-troll like behavior"

I thought about this some more, and it may not be necessarily true? I don't think Logi mentioned Drysalt actually being killed by Hasvir, only his master. However, Drysalt certainly could've been killed during the time since then, and possessed, so you may be right. Just saying that there's the possibility you're wrong... although it seems pretty unlikely.
 
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Looking at it, Veny Horrasdottir, or possibly 'Veny Horrasdottir' as the case may be, becomes increasingly suspicious the more we look at her.

She was the one who saw our Fylgja, with Shroudsight - We could have just been unlucky I guess
She was the one who ensnared Hardir Haraldson in entangling love that eventually ended up in Harald Wolfwind being enslaved by Horra - Looking kinda sus.
She didn't say a word about the Hasvir bodypuppet.
She was under no Oaths during this Trial. It was Hardir who was representing her.
She recognized our Owl as having been us. When she had never met us at any point before this.

The other Horrasons basically aren't relevant aside from Hasvir, but Veny Horrasdottir has been pulling A LOT of weight for Horra. She's like the biggest player right after Horra, everyone else are a distant third at best.

e: Also Veny was not mentioned as even being at the Trial.

Sus, sus, sus.
 
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Yeah. Basically, we should consider the possibility that Veny knew about the puppet and, additionally, that Veny may have been working for some master of greater scope than Horra.

But at the same time, there are probably several plausible ways that all this would play out differently, that either Veny would be ignorant of the puppet switch or that it's all a trick and Hasvir is (unbeknownst to Horra) still alive, that this is all a case of Horra's memory shenanigans that he was hoping to use to bypass the problem of getting caught lying under oath backfiring on him, et cetera, et cetera.

We should pay attention to Veny, but not assume she's an enemy without a chance to clarify her motives and engage with her more directly.

Best way to ensure a coalition of badasses cant stop him is to have them fight themselves after all
Yeah. Definitely the best way to derail a coalition of these improbably badass swarming Norse cultivators is to troll (pun intended) them into punching each other to death.

Given the nature of Norse cultivator culture, this is not hard. :p

The Enemy should have no reason to spend resources on getting the entire Valley destroyed, though. He could've just had him jump us.
Also, I get the sense that Horra's schemes have been in motion for longer than the time since Halla discovered True Norse Cultivation and put herself on the Enemy's radar. I could be wrong, mind you.
 
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She was under no Oaths during this Trial. It was Hardir who was representing her.

Imperial explicitly said you need a man to represent a woman if they're testifying via Seersight.

Also, this is confirmation that Seersight and its siblings are legal evidence as long as a woman possessing it has a man to represent her in court.


She was the one who ensnared Hardir Haraldson in entangling love that eventually ended up in Harald Wolfwind being enslaved by Horra - Looking kinda sus.

Horra could've easily ordered her to do this, as a way to strengthen himself.

She didn't say a word about the Hasvir bodypuppet.

Blackhand did note that the puppet may have had a shroud over it. We know that Seersight can be blocked, since Horra blocked Solrun's Farsight, so this may be another case of that happening.

I'm not saying Veny isn't suspicious, but there are other reasons besides working with Drysalt that explains some of her actions. However with all the shit that's adding up, she's still looking to be pretty mysterious. Investigating her is definitely something we should do. Like Simon says, we should consider the possibility that she may be an agent of Drysalt, but there's no certainty as to whether she actually is one.
 
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Or we could just cut the Gordion Knot instead like we intended to with Horra from the start. Shes hardly going to be an ally of ours.
 
Yep, the thread has dive bombed into the conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

I have an idea, maybe it was all Strigr master plan? maybe HE was the one pulling the strings all along? maybe Strigr is not even his real name, maybe he is the Enemy in disguise?!
 
Uhh, I'm rereading the update and I noticed Veny has not actually been mentioned as being present in the Trial.
Imperial explicitly said you need a man to represent a woman if they're testifying via Seersight.
Yes, but that means that Veny could have lied.
Horra could've easily ordered her to do this, as a way to strengthen himself.
Well, I'm not discounting it, but... It feels very sus.

Pending the lurid details I'm not sure I want to hear.
Blackhand did note that the puppet may have had a shroud over it. We know that Seersight can be blocked, since Horra blocked Solrun's Farsight, so this may be another case of that happening.

I'm not saying Veny isn't suspicious, but there are other reasons besides working with Drysalt that explains some of her actions. However with all the shit that's adding up, she's still looking to be pretty mysterious. Investigating her is definitely something we should do.
Yeah, but you would expect Shroudsight to pierce magical illusions. It's the anti-disguise variant of Seersight.

Although at this point my brain is rolling onto the theory that Veny Horrasdottir doesn't actually exist and is really a Troll in disguise or something.
 
Or we could just cut the Gordion Knot instead like we intended to with Horra from the start. Shes hardly going to be an ally of ours.

I mean, we could do that... but if she really is going to leave us alone, killing her over assumptions and conspiracies doesn't seem like something a Drengr would do. I'm up for investigating her, but killing her before we get any evidence I'm not a big fan of. Unless she proves herself to be a threat, or something. We're probably gonna end up killing three of Horra's sons anyway, considering they hate us, so we can see what her stance concerning us is when that time comes.

Yes, but that means that Veny could have lied.

I mean, yeah, but she didn't? We were at Horra's farm. That still doesn't explain how she knew it was us - unless that's a feature of Shroudsight - but she didn't lie.

Can't actually find the update where the Seeress mentioned Horra blocking her sight. Does anyone else know when that was?
 
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I mean, yeah, but she didn't? We were at Horra's farm. That still doesn't explain how she knew it was us - unless that's a feature of Shroudsight - but she didn't lie.
The problem is the full extent of Veny's fuck-fuck games are currently indicative of being second only to Horra himself.

Like Veny could have done more fuck-fuck games than Horra at this point with the information we have hand.
 
She had no way of reliably killing Halla's Fylgja, because we had flight and lots of speed. The most ratting us out would have done was spook us. She had no way of guaranteeing a kill, so she let it go and then later told Horra so he knew we were working against him.
she didn't know of neither our defenses or speed tricks though, and his brother Hod IS an archer, if you remember she asked how his skills are, after she saw the owl.
Guys, forget Horra for a second. Hes incidental to the motivations now.

Signing on with whatever Drysalt is up to is a red line for most of the valley, and for good reason too. She needs to bite it
We still don't know her circurmances though.
She was the one who saw our Fylgja, with Shroudsight - We could have just been unlucky I guess
She was the one who ensnared Hardir Haraldson in entangling love that eventually ended up in Harald Wolfwind being enslaved by Horra - Looking kinda sus.
She didn't say a word about the Hasvir bodypuppet.
She was under no Oaths during this Trial. It was Hardir who was representing her.
She recognized our Owl as having been us. When she had never met us at any point before this.
yes, she saw our owl
We do not know if it was ensnearing or true love.... but Hora might have set them up, but that doesn't mean she was in on the plot. HOrra playing fucky games with the father in law is def sus, but its in his character from what we know.
Again, we don't know when the switch happened.
SHE WASN'T EVEN AT THE THING! BECAUSE SHE ISN'T A WARRIOR LIKE HALLA SO SHE CAN'T TESTIFY FOR HERSELF!
Again, we do not know how the seeing eye variants work, she might have saw Halla, might have saw the owl or the owl and its connection going to Halla. It isn't a secret that Halla's Vrithing is burned owl feathers.

Guys, please, do not start a bandwagon when we hardly have anything to stab into her, information wise.

And, of course, the conspiracy theories keep on going....
: Also Veny was not mentioned as even being at the Trial.
Why would she, when she doesn't need to be there? Her husband is her representative.
We should pay attention to Veny, but not assume she's an enemy without a chance to clarify her motives and engage with her more directly.
Yes, thank you Simon!
Imperial explicitly said you need a man to represent a woman if they're testifying via Seersight.
Yes! thank you Constenanto!
On that note, its worth a reminder Halla can only speak for herself because she is a warrior, and a good one at that.
Or we could just cut the Gordion Knot instead like we intended to with Horra from the start. Shes hardly going to be an ally of ours.
very bloodthirsty.
Sure, there IS a feud between the two family head, and Hod does hate our guts because he was raised on the stories of "Steiner killed your uncles"
Yeah, but you would expect Shroudsight to pierce magical illusions. It's the anti-disguise variant of Seersight.

Although at this point my brain is rolling onto the theory that Veny Horrasdottir doesn't actually exist and is really a Troll in disguise or something.
Shard... we do not know when the switch happened!!!

seriously....
@Imperial Fister Did the Seeress saw Hasvir or the water puppet with Horra and Wolfwind when she looked at Wolfwind?

Edit:
The problem is the full extent of Veny's fuck-fuck games are currently indicative of being second only to Horra himself.

Like Veny could have done more fuck-fuck games than Horra at this point with the information we have hand.
We do not know if she even plays fuck fuck games shard.

Seriously people, don't jump the train so fast.
for all we know Hasvir himself did the water puppet. a bit of meat isn't that big a price for a Norseman.
 
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The problem is the full extent of Veny's fuck-fuck games are currently indicative of being second only to Horra himself.

Like Veny could have done more fuck-fuck games than Horra at this point with the information we have hand.

I mean, yeah, but the trial has nothing to do with those fuck-fuck games as far as Harald's testimony goes, because it was no lie.

She's suspicious as fuck, sure, but maybe we should get some evidence before we crucify her?
 
Veny not actually being a warrior is seriously problematic because it means we can't just kill her, ugh.

SHE WASN'T EVEN AT THE THING! BECAUSE SHE ISN'T A WARRIOR LIKE HALLA SO SHE CAN'T TESTIFY FOR HERSELF!
So?

The problem is that the testimony of Veny, or 'Veny', is second hand. It's not firsthand. She wasn't even here as an attendee. She wasn't exposed to the Weight being thrown around, which would have revealed critical information.
Guys, please, do not start a bandwagon when we hardly have anything to stab into her, information wise.

And, of course, the conspiracy theories keep on going....
There was a literal fleshpuppet at the Thing to do shenanigans with the Oathring, Horra was doing some fuck fuck games possibly involving his memory and actually putting a magical killswitch onto Harald, a valley destroying Troll (who are explicitly very magical creatures) is involved and you're saying we're conspiracy theorizing?

In a quest where, uh, one of the major antagonists can do insane shenanigans on the level of perception blocking?

edit:

Oh right.

Veny should have seen the magically shadowed Dwarf.

She's complicit in Horra breaking the Ancestral Pact.
 
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We'll just have to see if the useful info we get in exchange for not neutralizing the Draugr Army in advance helps confirm some of this theorycrafting.
 
I will say that if you kill Veny, you're gonna have to eat a lot of nid to do so.

Striking down a woman is one of the most shameful things you can do.

Anyways, I'm up now. Just gotta go take my medicine and we can get this show on the road. I'm not gonna be answering any questions between now and the update because, well, it would be kinda pointless ;P

And since it's the weekend, I'm not on dog duty. My workflow has returned to me!
 
Or we could just cut the Gordion Knot instead like we intended to with Horra from the start. Shes hardly going to be an ally of ours.

Because getting nid for killing a noncombatant woman and getting Wolfwind as an enemy due purely to paranoia is a good plan? No. This is a terrible idea.

TheCount is right, everyone is jumping to conclusions. Halla's defenses against seersight are nonexistent. Drysalt's are not or he wouldn't be alive. Assuming she could see through whatever defenses he can put on a puppet is wild conjecture and almost certainly false. The Seeress was in the room with the puppet and she didn't spot it, I see no reason to assume the much less experienced Veny could, or to be any more suspicious of her than we were before this theory was floated.

Basically if you're gonna assume anyone with seersight who saw the puppet is working with Drysalt, that includes the Seeress. The logic is just as strong for her as for Veny.

Could she be working for Drysalt in theory? Sure. Is anything with the puppet evidence of that in the least way? No. Which means there is no evidence, which means I don't buy a single link in this chain of supposition for a second. The puppet being well defended from seersight is just a much more logical supposition on every level.
 
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Mmm.

We'll have to see how things pan out then. At the very least, I don't intend to do anything pre-emptively. But I've got my eye open!
 
Veny not being a warrior is just so problematic. Guh.

We need to uncover the extent of her shit. Or lack thereof. Such a major player in the plots going on.
 
I still think that Veny (and probably Hasvir) have their own agenda indipendent from Horra or Drysalt. Maybe they both created the puppet togheter, Veny using Shapecrafting and Hasvit supplying the water.
 
There was a literal fleshpuppet at the Thing to do shenanigans with the Oathring, Horra was doing some fuck fuck games possibly involving his memory and actually putting a magical killswitch onto Harald, a valley destroying Troll (who are explicitly very magical creatures) is involved and you're saying we're conspiracy theorizing?
First, like many times already. we do not know WHEN the switch happened, nor WHO made the puppet. as i said, it could have been Hasvis just as easily, it was a WATER puppet, after all.
Second, Horra doing fuck fuck games with his memory was only a THEORY, no solid evidence was on that, so do not treat it as one, even if it would be in character for him.
Third, the magical killswitch, thats fair, i am guessing it was one of Horra's terms for the marriage.
Forth, We do not know how deep the rot is in Horra's family, or if anyone aside from Horra was involved with any of the Dry Salt business. Or if even Horra was involved, because it could have easily been one of the kids as well, remember, he did not know about the Scorn Pole or the horse siring. (And there is no evidence so far ther is memory manipulation going on, before you bring that theory up again, even if it would be in character)
 
How could Veny learn shapecrafting? She's so young, the only available teacher is like, Horra!
Exactly! he would have teached her shapecrafting because having two shapecrafters is always better than having only one.

Or if even Horra was involved, because it could have easily been one of the kids as well, remember, he did not know about the Scorn Pole or the horse siring.

Since illusions are already involved, we could assume that the "Hasvir" at the competition was somebody else in disguise. And that the "Horra" that the Troll was in contact with was also somebody hidden by an illusion.
 
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