The thing is, fighting in itself is awesome, fighting to protect? For sport? To preserve your life or honor? All that's swell. Even fighting for an Objective is fine, as long as you keep it relatively clean.

Fighting for the sake of bloodshed and killing alone though puts a bad taste in my mouth, personally. And Halla's been feeling the same way too, given the narrative we have going on. She likes fighting, not killing, though she's not against killing at need either.

Character Development is important! It's good to be strong, it's good to be respected, but it's also good to identify that your culture's own bloodthirst is going to lead to it dying as well. It's a good step towards overall reform, and I can see it producing some very interesting events going forward!

But yeah, been thinking on this whole business here with the vote. It seems to me that Barbed-Tongue is "All-or-Nothing", where we either get a surrender or nothing at all. Silver-Tongue is more graduated, where we require a much higher degree to produce a total surrender, but allows for Technical Victories of increasing value as the results go up.

Mind you though, a Technical Victory attacking a Knight's Manor at the permanent loss of only one fighter when you only took a small ship and crew in the first place is still worth a significant amount of reputation, because you're supposed to run at a Knight with overwhelming numbers, not what amounted to being close to battle parity. It also helps that we are going to win if he decides to reject the offer, the only question is how expensive it's going to be for us, this is exactly the time you offer Quarter in warfare, when the outcome is decided but for the cost (In other words, he's in Checkmate, the question is if someone decides to flip the board). If his Squire held another round, it might have been a different story, but they didn't, and so here we are.

Of course, the question is "How badly does Folkmarr want a Total Victory, and how many bodies is he willing to shove into the meat grinder to get it." I hope that answer is not "Very" and "As many as it takes." We've been getting Ambitious hammered in several times by now, but there's a difference between "Ambitious" and "Zapp Brannagan".

So yeah, I'll admit, I'm worried. I don't see this hurting us--as I said, this is exactly the time you offer a worthy opponent quarter in any society that knows war, and everyone should know that. I'll admit I'm worried that our dice are going to be cool though and we do have to pay the butcher's bill, since there's no way to tell who's going to get the sharp side of it.
 
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If we are lucky we could tie saving the body dead to the Horra quest for instant Felagi aid. (If Folkmarr considers saving him a matter of honor and if our Seeress can help but wants us to finnish Horra before she does such big work for us)
 
The thing is, fighting in itself is awesome, fighting to protect? For sport? To preserve your life or honor? All that's swell. Even fighting for an Objective is fine, as long as you keep it relatively clean.

Fighting for the sake of bloodshed and killing alone though puts a bad taste in my mouth, personally. And Halla's been feeling the same way too, given the narrative we have going on. She likes fighting, not killing, though she's not against killing at need either.
Yeah It takes a real crazy person like real crazy to fight for fighting alone. Even Kenpachi Zaraki from Bleach is never characterized as fighting for bloodshed alone, he fights because he believes fighting makes him stronger and that he needs to use his strength (or at least that is how Ichigo views him). Zaraki is also batshit insane but he doesn't fight just to kill, he still manages to have reasons beyond killing and bloodshed.
Really think we just got to Follow the QMs early story advice, the Norse spend so much time wrapped up in violence thayt they can not really take the time to sit down and think about purpose or greater things in life. Our job hould be once we are Jarl to give them that chance.
 
So far Aki is the only person I can see us be able to recruit. I don't think Jerasmus or Gabriel would count even unshackled since they aren't Norse, Abjorn doesn't count since he's married to us, getting a Felag loyal to us would be, hmm, not hard but also not easy either.
Gautrekr Klippsson: (4/10) He's bald and hates boats. He fights with an axe, a sax, and a shield. You don't know much about him, other than the fact that he tries to distance himself from you, on account of your brother the boat maker.
I think should be removed from our relationships, or made clear that he is Truly Dead.
 
Peace might even make the Norse stronger, we see the Christians kicking our ass so much most likely because they just have better armor made proper blacksmiths, not blacksmiths who only started the trade at 20 when they got tired of being of a warrior. I imagine Christian shipwrights start learning much earlier than our brother did, same for basically ever trade. They do not even have a carpenter in our little village, instead you teach your warrior son how to make a tree house so he can make his own later on in life.
 
Peace might even make the Norse stronger, we see the Christians kicking our ass so much most likely because they just have better armor made proper blacksmiths, not blacksmiths who only started the trade at 20 when they got tired of being of a warrior. I imagine Christian shipwrights start learning much earlier than our brother did, same for basically ever trade. They do not even have a carpenter in our little village, instead you teach your warrior son how to make a tree house so he can make his own later on in life.
I'll be honest I really doubt the ship building thing for Christians. Like the Norse are well known for their ships after all. Like I feel we seem worse cause our family is mostly in the boonies/peasants (ignoring Hallas dad) instead of major towns/Jarls keep. It's not like the knowledge of specific stuff like the shipbuilding should be that widespread in regards to trades for the Christians. Honestly I feel like we might be overestimating them cause we see the best of the best instead of what the majority have access to in regards to trades/equipment.
 
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Can we please not jump to asking Christianity when there is so much norse stuff unexplored? When the whole Seeress line hasn't been opened?

Our smith brother is respected without being a murderer, Seeresses are respected without being murderers.

Asking one person for advice does not preclude asking others. We're not talking about converting, just asking all the available people's advice on the subject.
 
I think it's okay for people to like something like raiding in the abstract but to find out they're not as enthusiastic about it in practice. Not something we have to mock people for, you know? Not just Halla's character development, but the quester's, too! It also has to do with the opponents - fighting the priest who was an asshole was much less feelsbad.
 
I think it's okay for people to like something like raiding in the abstract but to find out they're not as enthusiastic about it in practice. Not something we have to mock people for, you know? Not just Halla's character development, but the quester's, too! It also has to do with the opponents - fighting the priest who was an asshole was much less feelsbad.
Its also that the MC in a story can do things in real you think is bad, stories are supposed to be entertaining. Sometimes the villain is fun to read about. Story wise this whole raid was a nice read. I mean i didnt even try and sympathize with the squire until he ran because i was obviously voting for a plan to kill the dude as fast as we could. the only reason i personally care about the morals of raiding is that it is banditry and that is bad for the Norse brand.
 
Asking one person for advice does not preclude asking others. We're not talking about converting, just asking all the available people's advice on the subject.
I for one would rather lose than convert, I joined this quest to be a viking and stuff, im even a bit iffy on dropping raiding. I dont think its a good action but its was part of I felt the quest would include. Im all for reforming it away just not starting on it ight away, i mean we could have gone for Denmark on this, its got to go if we want a Norse unity and our reforms to spread. Cannot reform the Danish if they hate us for raiding their coast.
 
I for one would rather lose than convert, I joined this quest to be a viking and stuff, im even a bit iffy on dropping raiding. I dont think its a good action but its was part of I felt the quest would include. Im all for reforming it away just not starting on it ight away, i mean we could have gone for Denmark on this, its got to go if we want a Norse unity and our reforms to spread. Cannot reform the Danish if they hate us for raiding their coast.

I'm deeply against converting as well, my point was that asking Jerasmus for his input on our current economic system and how to reform it is not, in point of fact, converting or giving up on anything in our culture, it's just asking for an outsider's insight into the issues in question.
 
Asking one person for advice does not preclude asking others. We're not talking about converting, just asking all the available people's advice on the subject.
But who you ask first can be symbolic. And influence how you take the advice. Also the question of asking Jerasmus while in a vulnerable state vs getting a bunch of opinions and then getting Jerasmus opinion.

And conversion can be gradual.
 
But who you ask first can be symbolic. And influence how you take the advice. Also the question of asking Jerasmus while in a vulnerable state vs getting a bunch of opinions and then getting Jerasmus opinion.

I mean, we're not gonna ask him the second we get back. We need to spend at least a turn prepping to even buy him...I honestly wasn't even considering it for several turns. Hence 'as part of buying, freeing, and employing' which is a bit of a longer term plan.

And conversion can be gradual.

Sure, but interacting with Christians does not constitute a conversion, and indeed peaceful interactions with Christians without converting is an absolute necessity for the reforms we're contemplating to have any chance of working at all. If we can't have a peaceful discussion with Christians without that being a step towards conversion we've already lost. The man taught us English, what's wrong with discussing economics and politics with him?

Like, we're talking about asking his advice on how to solve an economic problem here, not about asking for actual spiritual counseling.
 
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I mean, we're not gonna ask him the second we get back. We need to spend at least a turn prepping to even buy him...I honestly wasn't even considering it for several turns. Hence 'as part of buying, freeing, and employing' which is a bit of a longer term plan.
Issue is we aren't freeing Jeramus in a few turns maybe a few years yes, its too dangerous. He was somebody only our dad could take down. What if instead of being grateful he is instead angry at our father, he might just take us hostage or something. Jeramus is a a good guy and much more likely to run off and steal a boat back to Wessex with Gabriel than hurt us, but in my opinion Jeramus is a bit too strong for us to free all willy nilly, I would feel safer freeing him after having children. Jeramus and Gabriel are both gonna be way less willing to harm a mother taking care of infants, plus we will need to upgrade housing before we buy them anyways.
 
Sure, but interacting with Christians does not constitute a conversion, and indeed peaceful interactions with Christians without converting is an absolute necessity for the reforms we're contemplating to have any chance of working at all. Like, if we can't have a discussion with Christians without that being a step towards conversion we've already lost. The man taught us English, what's wrong with discussing economics and politics with him?
Interacting with Christians isn't automatically conversion, true.
Discussing economics and politics while highly insecure could lead to him having outsized influence. And "Economics and politics" is an insanely wide field, with BIG implications for the lives of the affected.
Like, if we can't have a discussion with Christians without that being a step towards conversion we've already lost.
I'd say it depends strongly on context if that would be an in to take steps towards conversion or not.

And
I feel like... Jerasmas the Mendicant might be in some what useful for this process? "I'm having a crisis of faith. Let me go talk with a priest." Seems like it might help.
(underline by me)
STRONGLY implies problematic* context to me.
* problematic if you oppose conversion.

I mean, we're not gonna ask him the second we get back. We need to spend at least a turn prepping to even buy him...I honestly wasn't even considering it for several turns. Hence 'as part of buying, freeing, and employing' which is a bit of a longer term plan.
To be fair, that sounds different than Sirroccos quote.
 
Issue is we aren't freeing Jeramus in a few turns maybe a few years yes, its too dangerous. He was somebody only our dad could take down. What if instead of being grateful he is instead angry at our father, he might just take us hostage or something. Jeramus is a a good guy and much more likely to run off and steal a boat back to Wessex with Gabriel than hurt us, but in my opinion Jeramus is a bit too strong for us to free all willy nilly, I would feel safer freeing him after having children. Jeramus and Gabriel are both gonna be way less willing to harm a mother taking care of infants, plus we will need to upgrade housing before we buy them anyways.
Just re read Jeramus stuff, jeramus isnt the knight that gabriel was a squire under. I guess we can but we will need like 2-3 house upgrades to fit those 2, our kids, Stigmar, Halla, and Abjorn. That will take more time than you think and We will need more food production.
 
Issue is we aren't freeing Jeramus in a few turns maybe a few years yes, its too dangerous. He was somebody only our dad could take down. What if instead of being grateful he is instead angry at our father, he might just take us hostage or something. Jeramus is a a good guy and much more likely to run off and steal a boat back to Wessex with Gabriel than hurt us, but in my opinion Jeramus is a bit too strong for us to free all willy nilly, I would feel safer freeing him after having children. Jeramus and Gabriel are both gonna be way less willing to harm a mother taking care of infants, plus we will need to upgrade housing before we buy them anyways.

Jerasmus is already not wearing manacles. Freeing him is a legal act of no practical significance to his capabilities.

Interacting with Christians isn't automatically conversion, true.
Discussing economics and politics while highly insecure could lead to him having outsized influence. And "Economics and politics" is an insanely wide field, with BIG implications for the lives of the affected.

Only if he's the only one we talk to, IMO.

To be fair, that sounds different than Sirroccos quote.

I can't speak to Sirrocco's intent, but mine was always to talk to Jerasmus among others about a solution to our long term social (and particularly economic) problems, with, in his case, an eye towards what things look like from an outsider's perspective.
 
Just re read Jeramus stuff, jeramus isnt the knight that gabriel was a squire under. I guess we can but we will need like 2-3 house upgrades to fit those 2, our kids, Stigmar, Halla, and Abjorn. That will take more time than you think and We will need more food production.

I'm thinking we actually want a second house, honestly. And a second storehouse, given the loot in Food and Fodder we'll be coming back with.

And we're fine for several years of food production if we can get it all stored even if we don't buy additional livestock on the way home (which we will)...56 Food will feed four people for over two years, and that's on top of the two people in perpetuity we've got from the cow...we buy one more cow on the way home and we're good for 8 people for the next two years. Two more cows and it becomes eight people for over four years. And that ignores any livestock other than cows. Like, if we can store it all, the food will last us.

@Imperial Fister in terms of management stuff can we make duplicate buildings? Like, a second house, a second storeroom and so on? I'd assume the maintenance costs are greater than upgrading existing buildings but that this otherwise works fine, but it's good to be sure so I thought I'd check.
 
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@Imperial Fister in terms of management stuff can we make duplicate buildings? Like, a second house, a second storeroom and so on? I'd assume the maintenance costs are greater than upgrading existing buildings but that this otherwise works fine, but it's good to be sure so I thought I'd check.
You can indeed. You have to first upgrade your main house to Decent in order to be able to build Basic duplicates.

Voting will be called in an hour and a half
 
I can't speak to Sirrocco's intent, but mine was always to talk to Jerasmus among others about a solution to our long term social (and particularly economic) problems, with, in his case, an eye towards what things look like from an outsider's perspective.
I'm thinking we actually want a second house, honestly. And a second storehouse, given the loot in Food and Fodder we'll be coming back with.

@Imperial Fister in terms of management stuff can we make duplicate buildings? Like, a second house, a second storeroom and so on? I'd assume the maintenance costs are greater than upgrading existing buildings but that this otherwise works fine, but it's good to be sure so I thought I'd check.
Yeah Sirrocco like me probably thought Jeramus was a priest or a knight, but he is some kind of traveler. We should speak to him for sure, the guy has probably seen many cultures and could tell us their good parts. Gabriel is at worst gonna flee but I don't think he can navigate a ship so he would have to be real desperate and he likes us enough. I assume a second house is possible for things like thralls or people not directly in the family. We might need to upgrade the house to certain point to build a lower tier one or get more property to fit an extra house on.
 
You can indeed. You have to first upgrade your main house to Decent in order to be able to build Basic duplicates.

Hmmm. That's tricky with the timing then...can we rent storage or something? Because it seems actively and literally impossible to get all our food and fodder stored before winter if we need to hit Decent in order to build Basic stuff and thus can't do both in the same round. Like, what are our storage options other than making buildings? Or do we just need to sell some of the Food and Fodder?

Yeah Sirrocco like me probably thought Jeramus was a priest or a knight, but he is some kind of traveler. We should speak to him for sure, the guy has probably seen many cultures and could tell us their good parts. Gabriel is at worst gonna flee but I don't think he can navigate a ship so he would have to be real desperate and he likes us enough. I assume a second house is possible for things like thralls or people not directly in the family. We might need to upgrade the house to certain point to build a lower tier one or get more property to fit an extra house on.

Jerasmus is a cultivator, seemingly, and likely a powerful one (he has something Father Gerrit didn't, remember)...but he does also seem to be a pacifist or something like it. And Gabriel seems unlikely to flee if we're offering him a job and eventual passage home, which is basically the plan.
 
Jerasmus is a Mendicant, ie a itinerant traveling friar. His faith is likely stronger than Father Gerritt (he had a missing something that might be the third Christian stat). It's interesting that he hasn't tried converting anyone, at least as far as we know. It's possible he'd be open to discussing flaws with Norse culture without directly trying to convert.
 
Yeah Jeramus seems like a good source for how to make things more peaceful, the Norse need to sit down and think and Jeramus does a lot of that.
 
I do note that any reforms we spread would need to be objectively better than the previous in terms of strength of people produced, at least in the short run.
 
Hmmm. That's tricky with the timing then...can we rent storage or something? Because it seems actively and literally impossible to get all our food and fodder stored before winter if we need to hit Decent in order to build Basic stuff and thus can't do both in the same round. Like, what are our storage options other than making buildings? Or do we just need to sell some of the Food and Fodder?
You can sell food and fodder (for money/other goods), you can give it out (drengskapr+orthstirr), you can host feasts (improves relations with invited), and you can make sacrifices with excess food and fodder (improve hamingja)
 
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