Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
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- The other side of the mirror
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- He/His/Him
May The Invisible Hand Be With You - (Star Wars CK2-Style Quest)
- Thread starter Dr. Snark
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- star wars canon what canon tsundere dice ck2 quest actions have consequences all the credits all work and no play makes ciaran a dull girl best sister capitalism ho! despairing qm teetotaller society member gotta catch 'em all insanity looting off the rails sage dice approaching spicy sheev tsundere asajj
Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
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In all seriousness, I propose we make the X-Wing the martial symbol of the CNS.
Not only is it very different from the dagger-shaped Republic capital ships or the droid-operated CIS skeletal/angular look, it's great for PR / getting the people engaged.
"Cheap enough to acquire and operate that you can have a few squadrons of them, even on your boring agriworld. If your farmboys can fly Incom airspeeders, they can fly these. If your mechanics can repair Incom airspeeders, they can keep these operational. No expensive carriers required. You can protect your own world and you can protect your friends and your interests. Pirates won't stand a chance, and if they bring in something too big for you, you can call for help and we'll have firepower coming to your rescue almost before you finish powering down the comm."
Administratively organize localized System Defense Wings and Sector Defense networks and have it all eventually report to the CNS Defense Minister.
This is how we turn having a lot of geography but not a massive lot of droid manufacturing (CIS) or wealth+Clones (Republic) into an advantage.
Not only is it very different from the dagger-shaped Republic capital ships or the droid-operated CIS skeletal/angular look, it's great for PR / getting the people engaged.
"Cheap enough to acquire and operate that you can have a few squadrons of them, even on your boring agriworld. If your farmboys can fly Incom airspeeders, they can fly these. If your mechanics can repair Incom airspeeders, they can keep these operational. No expensive carriers required. You can protect your own world and you can protect your friends and your interests. Pirates won't stand a chance, and if they bring in something too big for you, you can call for help and we'll have firepower coming to your rescue almost before you finish powering down the comm."
Administratively organize localized System Defense Wings and Sector Defense networks and have it all eventually report to the CNS Defense Minister.
This is how we turn having a lot of geography but not a massive lot of droid manufacturing (CIS) or wealth+Clones (Republic) into an advantage.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Well the real conundrum with that is the idea of making a starfighter the simbol of martial might and not an battleship. Having your simbol be blow up kinda defeats the prupose of it.
I could be simbol for the average agri world on the mid rim but i don't fell for the formal CNS military (despite being totally behind in making it the CNS mainstate fighter)
Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
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It worked all right for the Rebellion, I'd say.
That said, as a concession to our heavily-communal strategy, maybe we go with a Flight of X-Wings. Squadron of X-Wings. Wing of X-Wings. Zerg Rush Swarm of X-Wings (kekeke). The idea being that you might stop one of us but you can't stop all of us, and we're all going to hit you?
Thinking from a Republic or CIS perspective, how do you defend against Surprise Metric Shitton Of Multirole Fighters? You have to drastically change how you do everything and that is a phenomenal Enemy Headaches Caused (times) Friendly Headaches Eased factor.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
The main issue that a gerrila group is not an defensive force, the rebellion could get away with not be able to fully defend a sistem , and having a craft that punch over its weight cals an simbol, the CNS can't, its an defensive pact first and foremost, not everyone is in for die for the cause the simbol needed is less "hope" we don't have an obvious bogieman to oppose us, and more "stability" something unassailable but not oppressive, kinda like the mon cala desing philosophy but you know mass produced and acessible to guard every sistem.
Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
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I have some Vietnam Vet friends who would rather vehemently disagree with you on that. Living history aside, though...
A) What do you propose the purpose of Mandalorians is?
A.1) We've been spreading around the Mandalorian philosophy and doctrine and while every single writer has disagreed about precisely what that means and is because it was developed off of one guy who explicitly was noticed for "cool factor". Among other things, we have Mandalorian Wookiees. We have enough member planets and enough Mandalorian recruiting that they could very easily be the backbone of our Starfighter Defense Corps.
A.2) Even if you set it up as a philosophy, the Resol'nare, the baseline tenets of being a Mandalorian, from which people argue application are as follows (emphases and rearrangement mine): Armor, language, defending one's self and one's family, contributing to your group's welfare, rallying to the cause of the high leader (Mand'alor) when called upon, and raising one's children to follow this way as well.
Half of it is superlatively applicable to precisely this sort of scenario.
B) We haven't seen everything the success of Call to Order (link) created.
B.1) One of the fundamental elements of a government in Star Wars is "we want to continue to exist as a polity in a galaxy literally named for inter-polity violence". Setting up the CNS as a government means this will be forming.
B.2) We may be getting Mon Cal Cruisers ~15+ years early (a few turns from now once the Mon Cala have gotten results from their "Search for Engineers" diplomatic action pays off).
C) So you're looking for something to fill a role...perfectly filled by X-Wings.
C.1) X-Wings create a very "We can't stop here. This is X-Wing Country" vibe for pirates and hostile polities.
C.2) You make an example of the first hostile polity to attempt something like this and all the rest of them think twice.
C.3) The Malevolence and Pride of the Core seem to be volunteering to allow us to demonstrate an example upon them.
It seems like every reason you give that it shouldn't be X-Wings creates two or more reasons it very definitely should be. Kinda like every X-Wing our enemies shoot down will bring with it two more shooting back.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
I fell that you are overestimating the X-wing and how dissipated is the mandalorian culture difusion, the X-wing a great craft sure but it's not the flying panacea that you selling as.
As for the mandalorian doctrine, is quite disingenuous make the argument that our training initiatives on some key planets are the same as the centuries of history the original mando's have, or that it is difuse enought that they comprise all CNS military.
I get that you fell in love with the idea, but honestly its just not feesible to assume the best possible scenario will apply and say its the norm.
I agree with Barondoctor, so what if you destroy one x-wing if it will bring more on you head arriving by the thousand.
I can see some captain or pirate not having enough guts to shot x-wing in fear of overwhelming numbers arriving.
One little fighter may be symbol of hope if no enemy will dare to destroy it no matter how easy it may by.
I can see some captain or pirate not having enough guts to shot x-wing in fear of overwhelming numbers arriving.
One little fighter may be symbol of hope if no enemy will dare to destroy it no matter how easy it may by.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Yes but again the CNS does not weaponize Hope, it is fundamentally diferent from the rebelion.
We weaponize stability, having a craft that get shut down is not great for that angle.
Also you guys are forgetting that an X-wing swarm is not quite feeseble, an normal planet realy can hold so many star fighters o their military budget. No matter how easy is to train pilots or mantain the craft it's still just as costly.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Then i question you why there's not more planets that do this, or any at all, it can be because all are corrupt to the core, the issue is logistics again, maintaining an fighter X wing may be relatively easy but is not cheap. How costly would be to upkeep fighters scales with the numbers you have its a even bigger problem when you consider that most planets don't have the industrial infrastructure to create spare parts.
So the X-wing swarm is teorically possible, not feesible.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
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That's just it though: it's art of why it's so easy to maintain is that the thing can be maintained on the cheap. The X-Wing performs like an F-16, but has the logistical footprint of a Piper Cub. Not to mention Economics of Scale.
It's cheaper to buy a ton of military hardware than just a handful due to the distribution of R&D and production costs among large units. But let's say even that's too much for a planet, that they can't afford more than a couple. You know what they can afford in mass?
Less than dozen ground crew, some engine fuel, ammo, and Tibanna gas. You can run an X-Wing on civilian gear with very little people in the most inhospitable conditions, the X-Wing is that bullshit. So the places that can't afford to buy their own? Host guerilla hangars. The wealthy worlds in the CNS alliance can foot the bill for up front purchases, and the worlds that can't make the more manageable and economically productive basing arrangements.
The Alliance playbook does upscale.
Actually, X Wings are Fuckoff Producable. You're more likely to run out of viable Population to fly the damn things than you are the fighters themselves. It's why the Rebels were as successful as they were.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Nah the rebel aliance won because the empire was basically tailor made to be defeated by them, from fleet doctrine to organizational issues.
Like it get the question of "why everything did not become X-wings" after the empire becomes too pressing.
Hell the question of why the rebel did not use more X-wings become an question. They were secretly backed by some prett developed planet and rich people aftherall.
I think the main point of contention is that i do not by on that EU bullshit made to hype the ship equivalent of a pikachu or an ultramarine.
That does sounds like the most ludicrous part of EU bullshit if im being honest.
Like it get the question of "why everything did not become X-wings" after the empire becomes too pressing.
Hell the question of why the rebel did not use more X-wings become an question. They were secretly backed by some prett developed planet and rich people aftherall.
I think the main point of contention is that i do not by on that EU bullshit made to hype the ship equivalent of a pikachu or an ultramarine.
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Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
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Lots of reasons, from generals "fighting the last war" to authors just not thinking about it (the DP20 Frigate is the size of a corvette, but it gets called a Frigate because authors liked the sound better) to it not being narratively necessary to different resource availability (the New Republic picked up Coruscant fairly early on, for example. Us getting it is not likely to happen in the course of the quest. Mon Cal Cruisers had actually been invented after the Empire. That Empire doesn't even exist yet and nor do Mon Cal Cruisers...yet.)
Here's where your argument falls apart, I'm afraid. If you're going to choose to ignore large quantities of source material, consistent across multiple authors, in favor of your own vision of what you believe the Star Wars universe looks like or should look like?
Everybody else is talking about one galaxy, and you're talking about a different galaxy, and the two work differently. Feel free to go write your own take on the Galaxy Far Far Away that operates under your rules and works like you believe it should.
In this galaxy, however, X-Wings are, in fact, logistically bullshit-easy, for both Doylist and Watsonian reasons.
From a Doylist perspective it's so Farmboy Luke can become X-Wing-Pilot Luke at the drop of a hat and so that it can make sense that X-Wing groups can go anywhere you can put a dorm and a hangar and authors don't need to spend 10 pages talking about getting logistics up and running so they can skip straight to the fun part.
From a Watsonian perspective? Z-95s have been around since before the Clone Wars and continue to stick around for another 70 years at least. Everybody and their cousin can afford one, everybody and their cousin can find parts for one. That's the grandfather of the X-Wing, and it's got a lot of parts an X-Wing can use.
The ARC-170 is a heavy starfighter that's got a lot more durability and long-operation-endurance, but also uses more personnel. It's the father of the X-Wing.
X-Wings are able to use a lot of the same parts and maintenance procedures and flight handling familiarity and they're able to pare down how much in terms of resources and personnel they use to be able to use one pilot. A lot of the logistical heavy lifting was already done by the Z-95 and ARC-170 long before X-Wings were ever developed.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Ok so here a question, how you would implement it on the quest without breaking the whole quest?
Because i will be honest with you, if they are that easy to mass produce and mantain, there's nothing stopping pirates from getting the X-wing, and all devolving in unrestricted X-wing warfare.
Its the dreadnought effect but with a starfighter that can be printed like an blaster.
I simply see no scenario where we would allowed to do that.
Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
- Location
- United States
I mean... we got an entire permanent martial action out of developing them.
Jack_Trade
Chasing the Green Fairy
- Location
- Scotland
Oh that's simple to answer merchandizing and keeping each faction visually distinct for the reader/watcher.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Im not really harping on tactical flexibility, aka: what give us the extra martial, but the "it can be printed for dirt cheap and anyone can use AND is one of the best if not rhe very best fighter around", it's just fucks with the power balance too much that would fuck the whole starship ecosystem that the galaxy have reducing it to making them an auto win button.
This is kinda hard when everyone uses the same ship with the same loadout and same tactics.
Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
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Not my problem. I don't QM here and in fact have very little power, most of it related to omakes; as the payoff for that, I have a lot of things that aren't my worry.
Snark has the X-Wing's bonus limited to +1 Space-Related-Martial-Action.
Far as keeping them in friendly hands? Perhaps there's some form of electronic rights management connected to it that will lock down the main power generator without the correct credentials. I don't know, but again, not my problem; possibilities exist. It doesn't carry ion cannons to disable a craft. It can do Close Air Support but doesn't have quite the firepower necessary for total-destruction-bombing, but it can eliminate threats and clear the airspace ahead of a craft more suited to total-destruction-bombing.
To answer why wouldn't pirates get one? They can already get Z-95s on the open market and those do ~70% of the violence of the X-Wing at ~50% of the price. They've been doing the thing you're asking about for years. Z-95s are essentially the "free trial version" of the X-Wing (not free but cheap at the cost of missing a few features). The big features that make X-Wings special are the sensor suite that lets it operate independently and the comms gear that let it maintain contact with distant commanders. Everything else is just "Z-95, but better because it's more expensive and modern."
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Don't this make the Z-95 a better ship for your pruposed swarm tactics then?
Specially on the planetary defense role.
Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
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No. No it doesn't, and if you haven't bothered to read why when I've explained it twice I'm not going to try a third time.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
I did read what you said. I just don't buy your arguments since it treats the very individualistic CNS as the rebelion.
Like, i don't see planetary defense fleets having any reason to not use the cheaper alternative to swarm tactics if they are just as easy to use and make as the X-wing.
In other hand if you are harping on the X-wing be so much easier than the z-95 to learn and mantain then theres no reason the pirates no swich to the logistics breaking ship that are great for hit and run tactics.
These 2 arguments kinda exclude one another.
Also the not the QM not my problem aproach is kinda asking for shark just nerf the new ships for "reasons" in order to preserve the quest.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
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- Ohio
Baron Doctor has something of a point on making a basic key recognition program. Because you keep conflating production and maintenance. The X-Wing is not a Woodwn Wonder churned out in the thousands. It really is the equivalent of the Cold War jets America keeps updating until the airframe is old enough to be their pilots' grandparents. They can operate off mud hangers, but get built in state of the art assembly lines with microscopic quality specs.
The answer to how the Rebels got their hands on it, and by extension how we keep it out of enemy hands, is what Baron Doctor suggested: Basic Security.
Even back in the E.U., the Alliance got most of its supplies by robbing unmanned freighters and scrap yards. Yes, everyone from the Imperial Navy to Blastech just had droids load a bunch of cargo up, punch in the route on an auto-pilot, and let the ship just drive itself. Hell, that's how the Seppies got a full shipment of AT-TEs fresh off of Geonosis, they hijacked the automated computer bringing it to Kamino. The Alliance got plenty of Kuat's old cast-offs the same way. So we keep it out of unwanted hands by treating our logistics seriously and killing pirates.
I personally would put a bigger emphasis on the 'modern' deal. The X-Wing flies circles around the Z-95, the Headhunter just stayed ubiquitous because they got plenty of civilian and secondhand market businesses. There really is a massive grade difference between what the galactic militaries use and what everyone else subsists on.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
That is the problem of arguing against many at the same. some people are treating the ship like that.
So i have to ask is what exactly is the ship then. Because what i have told is the jesus ship that can be printed like a B-1 at virtually no maintenance cost and is easy enough to train pilots that a regular mid rim planet having a swam of those.
No counting that this high spec production idea run into the idea of the craft being mostly made of airspeeder parts.
Again i getting a lot of inconsistent praise for the ship and the only thing i can say if all is true is that it will fuck obliterate the power balance on the setting, like to absolute space dust.
The problem with the DRM like sistem is also the idea of the ship being made of reused parts and having an acess port to astromechs, so code cracked pirated X-wing would be a thing.
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