So there's at least the possibility of hooking Taras on board a theorectical Italiote League with the idea of "stop those overseas Hellenes coming here interfering (like what Kerkyra did to you!)"?

It remains to be seen what the future trajectory of Taras will be. While wounds from this war are obviously raw, it is not inevitable that Taras and Eretria will come again to military conflict. It depends on how Eretria's power and the direction of that power develops in the future. Eretria remains a new state much younger than any of those around it aside from Thurii. In the eyes of the Italiotes, Eretria Eskhata is prone to sudden explosions of prominence on the diplomatic scene intermixed with periods of distraction somewhere else. This makes it a somewhat unpredictable diplomatic partner.

In particular, one thing we're likely to do is deploy at least some of our forces to bolster the Italiotes against the Brutii. It gives us a chance to maintain some level of experience among our land forces after the Dauni are dealt with, since crushing the Illyrians will be mainly a thing of naval and amphibious operations and Syracuse is going to require us to solve the lack of siege equipment problem if we want to offer a true threat to them without necessarily having to commit to however many years it would take to starve them out (assuming we can also smash any interfering navy so that they can't just ship food in, which will be a difficult task); further, it gives us a way to ingratiate ourselves to the Italiotes and thus start bringing them into our general orbit.

One important lesson from this war that I hope players take to heart is that the Mediterranean has many players. The Greek world is interconnected and although diplomacy is underdeveloped, states are constantly paying attention to what is happening elsewhere. States in Magna Graecia act intelligently and carefully to safeguard their interests without overreaching. The unique developments in the quest have led to a less existential politics among the western Greeks, but it has also led to more developed diplomacy which tries to ensure that no state becomes too strong to threaten the others.

Which is to say that your biggest problem in taking Syrakousai and conclusively winning a war there isn't a lack of siege equipment.

It's Carthage.
 
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Which is to say that your biggest problem in taking Syrakousai and conclusively winning a war there isn't a lack of siege equipment.

It's Carthage.
To be fair, Carthage isn't the biggest problem with taking Syracuse, it's the biggest problem with being allowed to take Syracuse.

If we can't breach Syracuse's walls in the first place without a lengthy siege effort we're manifestly incapable of maintaining, the point of getting Carthage to let us take the city is moot; they aren't likely to believe we can do it and thus their response to us attempting diplomacy with them on the assumption that they might be afraid of us removing their main ally in keeping the Sikelians down will be to pat us on our heads condescendingly, tell us we're adorable, and send us on our way.

The ideal trajectory here would be that we first demonstrate our siege engines are capable of bringing down walls, then convince the Carthaginians that we don't intend to fight with them over western Sicily, and only after that do we actively attempt to conquer and humble Syracuse. Going after Syracuse without doing anything to keep the thousand-pound gorilla of the western Mediterranean from jumping in to rip our arms off and beat us to death with them would be... well, I don't want to say "impossible" given some of the votes I've seen across various quests, but I definitely won't be choosing that option myself.
 
The ideal trajectory here would be that we first demonstrate our siege engines are capable of bringing down walls, then convince the Carthaginians that we don't intend to fight with them over western Sicily, and only after that do we actively attempt to conquer and humble Syracuse. Going after Syracuse without doing anything to keep the thousand-pound gorilla of the western Mediterranean from jumping in to rip our arms off and beat us to death with them would be... well, I don't want to say "impossible" given some of the votes I've seen across various quests, but I definitely won't be choosing that option myself.

well I kind of meant in assisting the Sikeliotes but it is adorable you think that Eretria could siege down Syrakousai by itself :p
 
[X] Accept the peace.
I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the psiloi with a sprained ankle, do vote to accept the peace.
We got what we wanted. The rest of Italia agrees. So what are we waiting for?

Skantarios laughs. When I heard you were injured, friend, I worried much: what would our august assembly be without our most spirited and outspoken psilloi? It is good to see that the fates have been kind to you, for your energy and earnestness are a balm to this gathering of impetuous youths and tired fathers. You have proven many times that lack of coin is not lack of courage.

I would propose that the Ekklesia recognize you as excellent among the psilloi. Is there a man tasked with this year's Running of the Weasels? If not, who better than our favorite psilloi to conduct this year's ceremony?

Is there a man among you who will lift my klefte?
 
well I kind of meant in assisting the Sikeliotes but it is adorable you think that Eretria could siege down Syrakousai by itself :p
I had figured "with the Sikeliotes" was implied and thus didn't bother to explicitly mention it. Not least because we'd officially be slapping down Syracuse on their behalf and thus would kind of need them on-side by default.

We'd be providing the siege engines because we'd be better able to afford them than the Sikeliotes could, and also because presumably we'd have been the ones who developed them in the first place.
 
I sort of feel the need to mention that this train of thought relies on the idea that the other polis in the region will just stare blankly and let us develop siege engines to our leisure.

Instead of you know. Getting a sudden increase in the flow of their neurotransmitters. Realise what siege engines mean. Make a coalition. Burn Eretria to the ground. And then squabble amongst themselves to salvage our notes.
 
Taking off my Eretrian mask for the moment, I'd like to ask how exactly we plan to develop the idea of decent siege engines.
 
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REACTION POOOOST!

In the years since the arrival of Eretria, after all, the art of diplomacy had greatly advanced among the western Greeks. Most cities had a xenoparakletor or office with similar functions, though none with the same capability as Eretria, and governments maintained more contact with one another than ever before.
Ooh. Is this us having influence on the timeline, or was this going to happen anyway?

So many citizens spoke at such length that at one point the hoplite Skantarios was found fast asleep during the fifth speech of Antipatros son of Lysandros...
:D

The Epulians arrived at around the same time, after having received news from the Dauni that raised their spirits. Mnemnon had been successful (5d4+3=20) and Ausculos had been cowed.
AGAIN DOES HE WRANGLE THE BARBARIANS! :)

Immediately Epiktetos Linos appointed Xanthos Irenaeos as the city's naval strategos and dispatched him and the fleet of fifteen triremes ahead. The rowers, relived to have work, moved rapidly down to the coast, spending a day at Brention where the local chieftain was preparing for battle. From there, they launched an attack on the dependency of Hydrus along with three hundred Hieros ekdromoi. Without a navy of its own, and caught totally off-guard, the Hydrians could do little as the Ekdromoi landed in the harbor and looted the city, stealing much of its movable wealth and defacing the statues of major public figures (5d4+5=20).
No one draws mustaches on statues like Eretrian mustaches. :p

The Sallentine Peninsula, dotted with bays and long beaches, suited a naval battle well, and soon the two fleets had spotted the other. Irenaeos, without hesitation and to the fright of the Tarentines, rowed out towards the sea until he was facing the coast, and then descended upon the Tarentines. Slower to manuever and without trained rowers, the Tarentines panicked and started to row towards the shore, a disastrous mistake that would cost many their lives (5d4+5=22). Pressed against the shore on one side and the Eretrians on the other, nine Tarentine ships were beached while the rest fled. Immediately afterwards, Irenaeos pressed the attack again, landing several Eretrian Trirmes with the express goal of dispatching Hieros Ekdromoi to kill as many Tarentines as possible and burn their ships. In this he was also successful, killing several dozen rowers who tried to defend their ships, and torching six out of the nine Tarentine ships, with the rest managing to escape thanks to courageous crews and a fortunate wind (5d4+6=15).

Nevertheless, this was a crushing blow, and the sheer ability of the Eretrian navy facing off against inexperienced rowers mostly composed of the poorest strata of Tarentine society meant that there would be no further naval engagements during the year with Taras; their fleet simply refused to engage, having been so crushed at the Battle of the Sallentine Shore.
Yeah. Defeat in detail is a killer, and the Drakonids really did a good job of preparing our navy.

With the naval war won, Iremaeos retreated southwards to camp in Messapii territory on the other side of the peninsula, wishing to avoid a scenario where the night camp was set upon by Tarentines. Now it was a matter of winning on land.

Results
  • +20 talents in loot from Hydrus and Kalliopolis
  • 7 Ekdromoi dead
  • 6 Tarentine Triremes Burnt
  • 79 Tarentine Rowers Killed
Did we lose any rowers?

Hunter and Hunted: Opening Moves of the Land War

Strategos:
Epiktetos Linos
Eretrian Levy: 1,500 Hoplites, 350 Cavalry, 50 Kleos Exoria, 800 Psilloi
Allied Forces: 300 League Hoplites, 1,700 Allied Skirmishers, 400 Allied Cavalry

The challenge on land would be far harder. Taras, Hydrus, and Kalliopolis had ralled together a huge force of hoplites 3,500 men strong, a force of cavalry 500 strong, and a force of skirmishers 1200 strong...
So, yeah. Overall the numerical odds are 5100 Eretrians to 5200 Tarentines, effectively even.

But breaking that down, it's 800 Eretrian cavalry to 500 Tarentine, with us probably having a handful of much better cavalry (the Kleos Exoria) and a buch worse (the low end of our force and the allied force, compared to the Tarentines). 2500 Eretrian skirmishers to 1200 Tarentine skirmishers, with many of our skirmishers being native Italians who are frankly better at it than the Tarentines. And, yes, 1800 Eretrian hoplites to 3500 Tarentine.

This is exactly the reason I was hoping to avoid an armored clash, because they outnumber us in that arm. We'd have to massively cut down their own skirmisher/cavalry force to stand a chance against their phalanx, because as long as they have even a minimal ability to screen the flanks of their phalanx it'd roll right over ours in a shoving match. I don't care how much time our citizens spend lifting rocks; we're not going to be able to out-shove eight of their men with four of ours.

Even given that Storm of Iron would have mustered 2400 hoplites in our combined army, we'd still have been outnumbered heavily in that arm, by roughly 3:2 though not as bad as the nearly 2:1 situation prevailing here.

The loss of fighting men from Kalliopolis and Hydrus would immediately punish these two cities, but rather than humiliating them this act only drove them closer into the arms of Taras (2d10=3), now utterly embarassed by how easy their cities had been to raid and wishing to prove their worth to their overlord, that they were men and not pathetic whelps who could have their cities sacked without even doing battle.
Ah, a pity. If we could have calved off the Kalliopolitans and Hydrians, then that would have been helpful- though I doubt it would have improved the odds enough to make a pitched battle favorable unless other things went right.

Before the Eretrians arrived, however, the Messapii had rallied a force to attempt to block the Tarentines from reaching Aoxenta, which was fortified only by two-hundred men and a small wall, with the women and children having fled. The Messapii attack on the Tarentines faltered and then ended catastrophically when a bold Tarentine cavalry raid trapped the Messapii against the sea (2d10-4=5), which was enabled by the superior numbers of the Tarentine cavalry and the disorganized resistance put up only by individual Messapii cities, with Caelia and Brention having held back their own levies to await Eretrian arrival. The result was a slaughter of Messapii skirmishers while the cavalry escaped, a terrible loss to begin the campaign with.
Ahhh, crapbaskets.

Having reached Aoxenta, the Tarentines attempted their own daring raid, attempting to take the depopulated settlement with ladders in the dark of night on the advisement of Myron who noticed that sections of the walls were unguarded by the defenders due to their lack of numbers. Unfortunately for the Messapii, the risky manuever was successful (Roll for Messapii, 2d10+4=7), and after a vicious brawl, the gates of Aoxenta were flung open. Around half the men of Aoxenta left remaining were able to ride out of the city and escape northwards, but the remaining one-hundred men of the city fought to their deaths at the citadel.
Double crapbaskets. This gives the Tarentines effective full control of the southern tip of the "heel" of the Italian boot.

Meanwhile, Epiktetos Linos encamped outside the Messapii city of Hyria, and began to rally the remaining Messapii cities. King Artahias of Neriton, who had held his men back until this point, came, as well as the armies of Brention, Caelia, and Hyria; Manduria, Rudiae, and Lupiae had all been involved in that first ill-fated battle with Taras and so were still recovering, with levies trickling in.

Results
  • Town of Aoxenta Fallen to Taras, 100 Messapii Men killed
  • 240 Messapii Skirmishers butchered by Taras
  • 91 Tarentine Men killed in the storming of Aoxenta
Were those skirmishers counted among our opening order of battle? I wouldn't think so, since they weren't part of our army.

The Northern Stampede: Fighting the Land War

Strategos:
Epiktetos Linos
Eretrian Levy: 1,500 Hoplites, 350 Cavalry, 50 Kleos Exoria, 800 Psilloi
Allied Forces: 300 League Hoplites, 1,700 Allied Skirmishers, 400 Allied Cavalry, 250 Messapii Cavalry, 1,000 Messapii Skirmishers
Ahhh, there we go. By joining the northern Messapii forces to ours, we pick up an extra 1250 men, giving us a significant numerical advantage over the Tarentines (6350 to 5100 or so), and our advantage in cavalry is now roughly 2:1 while our advantage in skirmishers swells to roughly 3:1.

Not yet fully aware of the extent of the Eretrian cavalry and skirmisher force because such a large army of barbaroi had never been pulled together by the Eretrians before, Myron made a dangerous mistake in not sending out a large enough cavalry and light infantry screen. However, early Eretrian attempts to take advantage of this were only partly successful (5d4+4=13) due to the disorganization in the barbaroi levies and Myron's swift-thinking, which soon upped the number of cavalry and light infantry protecting his camp.
Well, a couple of 'average' rolls, but we still have a good position to harass and chew up the Tarentine forces. Myron might still be able to beat the Eretrian-and-friends army in a cage match, but unless his hoplites have a solid target to smash, he's got no advantages and is horribly outnumbered.

Now realizing the depth of the danger he was in, Myron began to order a march northwest through the coastal road, but was immediately set upon not only Eretria's barbaroi allies but the terrifying feathered cavalry, the Kleos Exoria, who began to systematically and methodically pick away at his outriders (5d4+6=16). Now Myron deployed his skirmishers in order to help maintain a screen, but the flat ground of the southern Sallentine as well as the weakness of skirmishers to cavalry meant nothing but disaster for these units (5d4+8=19). With both his skirmishers and cavalry weakened, Myron had no choice but to return home or see his hoplites systematically picked away. At the same time, Linos ordered Irenaeos to take the fleet to an island just off the coast of Taras, large enough for the Triremes to camp, and to make the journey during the night (5d4=13). Successful, Irenaeos camped there, awaiting Linos' signal, only a day away as the allied forces chased Myron back to the city with moderate casualties for Myron's forces (5d4+4=13).
So far so good...

At that moment, however, a second Tarentine cavalry force deployed from the Sallento succeeded in penetrating the Eretrian cavalry screens (5d4-2=16) and inflicting heavy casualties on an Eretrian light infantry camp situated nearby, wounding among others the outspoken psilloi of Thracian origin, Hermesdora Eretriazenis.
OH NO! HERMESDORA! Poor buddy!

Results
  • 92 Eretrian Psilloi killed
  • 2 Kleos Exoria killed
  • 29 Eretrian Cavalry killed
  • 120 Allied Skirmishers Killed
  • 39 Allied Cavalry Killed
  • Large numbers of Tarentine Cavalry, Skirmishers, and some Hoplites killed (~500 overall, mostly skirmishers and cavalry)
  • Hm. So, we lost about 220 skirmishers (including our psilloi and 70 cavalry to chew up 500 Tarentine skirmishers and cavalry. That's a good exchange on the whole, because at this rate we can Lanchester the Tarentine screening forces right down into the ground.
Hector Before the Walls: The Battle of Taras

Strategos:
Epiktetos Linos
Eretrian Levy: 1,500 Hoplites, 321 Cavalry, 48 Kleos Exoria, 708 Psilloi, 293 Hieros Ekdromoi, 15 Triremes
Allied Forces: 300 League Hoplites, 1,580 Allied Skirmishers, 361 Allied Cavalry

Before the walls of the city, however, Myron's army wheeled around, having been forced onto the narrow peninsula on which Taras is situated. Humiliated by their march home, the army now rallied to Myron's cry to defend their city and prevent a siege wall from being constructed. Eretria's hoplites, having moved in on Linos' orders to start constructing a wall cutting the city off, were taken off guard, and in the narrow peninsula Eretria's cavalry and skirmisher advantage was suddenly nullified. If Eretria were to victoriously besiege the city, there was now no choice but to confront them in a pitched battle, as Myron's strength had not been weakened enough to force them into the city. Now some 2,100 hoplites, with Myron having ordered partial dissolution of the army in home territory ostensibly to prevent a mutiny but in reality to buttress the city's strength in the case of a siege, these 2,100 faced 1,500 Eretrian hoplites and 300 League Hoplites. Despite Theron Zosimos' request, however, Linos said the Hieros Ekdromoi should stay with the fleet.
Leukon the Accountant, Just Before Battle:

"Let it never be said that Epiktetos lacks for courage. If three hundred ekdromoi offered to help me fight a battle, and I turned them down, it'd be a safe bet that I'd mixed some extra valor in with my bread and wine lees at breakfast!"

...

With that being said, just because the Eretrian cavalry and skirmishers were "nullified" doesn't mean that their presence is irrelevant. At this point the Tarentine forces have been whittled down to about 3500 men, while the Eretrians still have around 6000. Also...

Lines were drawn now. Linos, refusing to reveal his intentions to even his close advisers, advised Theron only to make it a good battle, and the two sides were joined. On the narrow peninsular field neither Eretria or Taras had an opening advantage, though the Tarentines were in danger of being pushed up against their walls if they faltered. Theron ordered the right-most flank to begin approaching the Tarentine lines whilst the Tarentines did the same. It was an irony now that the wily plan to avoid pitched battle had ended in pitched battle, but it had been forced by the failure in an attrition campaign to totally defeat the Tarentine forces.
True. On the other hand, the Eretrians are fighting this pitched battle at 7:6 odds against them in hoplites, instead of nearly 2:1 odds. I call that a pretty significant win all by itself- turning a certain defeat into a potentially winnable contest of strength.

Also...

It was at this point, as the lines collided, however, that Linos revealed his plan, one that could only have worked before the walls of Taras. A burning arrow was fired into the sky, and with it the signal for the Eretrian fleet. The Eretrian rowers and ekdromoi, having heard the sound of fighting, had already embarked and now rushed towards the city. Taras had no sea wall and little protection from a naval attack aside from its fleet, which was sitting in the harbor, completely unaware of the Eretrian naval gambit. After a successful landing (2d10+3=18), the Ekdromoi began to loot the harbor. Myron's wise decision to keep a large portion of his force within the city walls prevented the raid from turning into a sack, but it was about to create mass confusion on the field.
:D

On the plain of Taras the Eretrians and Tarentines clashed. The Eretrian right-wing hit first, but was pushed back by the superior Tarentine hoplites (2d10-3=8). In the midst of the push and pull of the Eretrian lines, young Isokrates Hypatos, who had been so excited to fight for Eretria and prove his worth, was killed by a spear thrust that embedded itself in his neck and fell to the ground in spasms.
Ahh, a pestilence! A man well liked, and with much potential, cut down in his prime...

On the left-wing, however, there was a shocking breakthrough led by Pylonos, who had led the Epulian hoplites from the left side with such vigor that the weak Tarentine left broken entirely (2d10+4=23). Nevertheless, the collapsing Eretrian right might have ended the battle had there not been a raid on the harbor; when the Tarentines saw smoke coming from the city they panicked and assumed the Eretrians were sacking it. Despite Myron's calls to stay on the field they fled inside (2d10+4=21), yielding the plain and losing many men who turned their back at the wrong moment, but at heavy cost to Eretria.
Pylonos did a great job proving the worth of the League hoplites here. These guys deserve the concessions we gave them.

The battle now won, the ekdromoi retreated to the opposite shore to Taras, wanting to avoid being overwhelmed on the docks. They had, however, done their part, and a fire now raged through Taras' port district, while a good portion of her remaining navy was burnt. The Eretrians had succeeded on both the field and at sea, but many complained about Linos' reckless tactic. If one thing had failed, or one part of the plan faltered, it might have turned into a slaughter for the Eretrians.
True, although most of the alternatives look worse. Given that Myron was able to keep his army intact if reduced in strength and pull it back to the walls of Taras, the Eretrian options were rather limited. He could allow the retreat, making a siege of Taras very difficult and tenuous in the long run. He could launch a combinad attack with the ekdromoi attached to the Eretrian phalanx, which would have given us only numerical parity and likely resulted in an indecisive battle, or he could use the seamobile ekdromoi to create chaos in the enemy's rear and gamble on being able to win with fewer hoplites.

I'm still happier with how this turned out than I would have been with a big "cage match" pitched battle somewhere in the Tarentine countryside.

Results
  • Isokrates Hypatos, Drakonian Proboulos candidate for election, dead
  • 149 Eretrian Hoplites dead
  • 21 League Hoplites Dead
  • 234 Tarentine hoplites killed
  • 12 Tarentine Ships destroyed​
  • 35 Hieros Ekdromoi killed​
OK, so in a bit I should tally losses for the campaign, but right now I suspect someone already did that.​
 
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The terms were as follows:

1) That Eretria will accept fault for provoking the war, but Taras will accept fault for starting it
2) That Taras, the defeated party, will concede defeat and give an indemnity of 120 talents to Eretria (of which 30 talents will go to Barbaroi allies and 10 talents to the Thuriians)
3) That Eretria will return the talents it took from the cities of Hydrus and Kalliopolis, acknowleding the fault lies with Taras (20 talents returned)
4) That Eretria will be entrusted with dominion over the Messapii, in exchange for allowing a small land connection between Taras and its dependencies along the coast
5) That Aoxenta will not be resettled again by Messapii, and will be acknowledged to be within the Tarentine sphere of influence
6) That the Messapii will not be allowed to make war or peace without the permission of Eretria
7) That a treaty of peace will be signed between Taras, Eretria, Thurii, and Metapontion, preventing any party from attacking the others for twenty years
8 ) That the two cities shall exchange their prisoners and war dead, returning any stolen armor or personal articles taken from their opponent
Leukos the Accountant:

"The first point is... fair. The second and third, taken together, profit the city. Tolerable. The fourth is what we were fighting for- dominion over the Messapii. And what boots it if the Tarentines keep the west coast of the peninsula? Have we not just proven that our navy, unmatched in Italia, can take any Tarentine thing along that coast at will? Everything they have, within sight of the sea and not sheltered within their very walls, is theirs only on our sufferance! It is no loss for us to grant them lease on that shoreline; if in a generation we must take it back from them, then take it back we shall!"

"The fifth point- tolerable. Aoxenta is a ruin, unlikely to be resettled, and in any case a den of barbarians. The sixth- again, precisely that which we were fighting for! The seventh is only fair; we have better affairs to attend to. And the eighth is, uh... Oh. A pestilence."

[sighs, looks down at the very very shiny greaves he just looted]

"Well, I guess it's better than fighting half of Italiote Greece at once."

[X] Accept the peace.
 
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The development of siege engines is a combination of need for siege engines, a willingness to innovate in warfare, and having the technical know-how to do so. Unfortunately, the greatest innovator in this respect in this period was the tyrant Dionysius I, who was a brilliant, arbitrary, and cruel man who conquered all of Sicily, all of Southern Italy save for Taras, and destroyed the Carthaginian citadel of Motya on the west coast of Sicily. We credit his engineers for the creation of the catapult.

The biggest bottleneck for real siege engines (not just battering rams) has never really just been the fact that men need to go home for the winter. It's that siege engines emerge with the development of a truly professional army of technically gifted specialists. Unfortunately, in the ancient world professional armies are uniformly associated with the aggregation of power by one person and the end of republican or democratic systems in favor of kingdoms or empires. That is not to say that you cannot have siege engines, only that you are unlikely to be inventing them.
 
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OK, so in a bit I should tally losses for the campaign, but right now I suspect someone already did that.​
Ask and you shall receive

So overall losses from the war:
Eritia:
42 Ekdromoi
92 Psilloi
2 Kelos Exoria
29 Cavalry
Isokrates Hypatos- Drakonian candidate
149 Hoplites
Total: 315


Allies:
340 Messapii
Allied 120 Skirmishers
Allied 39 Cavalry
Allied 21 hoplites
Total: 340 Messapii, 180 allied for 520

Our side total losses: 835, 495 not including Messapii. 170 hoplites killed

Taras:
18 Triremes
79 Rowers
91 men
500 men (more skirmish and cav, some hoplites)
234 Hoplites
Total: 825 w/o rowers, 904 with over 234 hoplites killed

I would argue that the Messapii taking some hits is good reduces their manpower so they wont be as rebellious as they know their continued freedom is dependent upon us and our league. Hopefully over time they can become as the Peuketii have become.
 
Yeah, it looks like the best siege engine we're going to get is a purse of gold delivered to the right hands...
 
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