This tends to favor the upper class, who naturally have more disposable income to throw around, which means the lower classes probably distrust the idea of a mercenary force because it might mean the aristos get the idea of "hey, if we can just pay these guys to sit on the lower classes, we don't have to worry about their pesky calls for reforms anymore". Which also gets into the whole issue of them not being of the city.
The other face of the issue is that despite all of that our Aristos also have heavy incentives to dislike mercs as well.

What people do not get is that the Ekdromoi and the Kleos Exoria are effectively a class of warrior elites. In the same vein as knights and samurai. Their prowess in war earns them a enormous amount of prestige, wealth and social capital. And because their numbers are so small it means that only the best and the richest have a chance of entering their ranks.

Meaning that for our elites these two groups are highly prestigious positions that affirms their arete and enhances their social standing even more. Thus it is desirable to them. Even more so for the less wealthy citizens.

The complaint of "But Herodion and the Kleos were heroes and mercs. So why would the modern Kleos Exoria be heavily against mercs" is like super fucking blind. You might as well ask the stupid question of why Toyotomi Hideyoshi a peasant who became lord of all of Japan systematically made sure that no peasant could ever replicate his ascension under his rule.

Because it's a position of power and influence and thus the group who took that path to power has a vested interest to insure that others cannot replicate that same feat. Thus preserving the illusionary prestige of the position and keep the power and influence within a communal group that shares a bond. Something that you would naturally want to keep out of the reach of literal outsiders of the group.

It doesn't fucking matter that say 600 merc cav would be useful. Our aristo cav and the warrior class of the Kleos would oppose it on the simple principle that it shits all over their glory and privilege. And given their social standing and social networks both within the polis and among our vassals, they could make it really hurt.
 
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The other face of the issue is that despite all of that our Aristos also have heavy incentives to dislike mercs as well.

What people do not get is that the Ekdromoi and the Kleos Exoria are effectively a class of warrior elites. In the same vein as knights and samurai. Their prowess in war earns them a enormous amount of prestige, wealth and social capital. And because their numbers are so small it means that only the best and the richest have a chance of entering their ranks.
Well, uh.

The main entry requirement for becoming an ekdromoi is that you have a panoply (like any hoplite-citizen) and be hella fit. The original ekdromoi were chosen spontaneously for their ability to run long distances in light armor, and our ekdromoi regularly do well at the Olympics precisely because "run in armor" is, like, their wheelhouse. You have to be prosperous, but you don't have to be one of the city's economic tippy-top elite, and physical fitness is a bigger qualification than wealth.

The prestige the ekdromoi get is very real though.

The kleos exoria are different- they're cavalrymen, so by definition they're aristocrats with enough spare land to graze a horse and the wealth to care for one.
 
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Well, uh.

The main entry requirement for becoming an ekdromoi is that you have a panoply (like any hoplite-citizen) and be hella fit. The original ekdromoi were chosen spontaneously for their ability to run long distances in light armor, and our ekdromoi regularly do well at the Olympics precisely because "run in armor" is, like, their wheelhouse. You have to be prosperous, but you don't have to be one of the city's economic tippy-top elite, and physical fitness is a bigger qualification than wealth.

The prestige the ekdromoi get is very real though.

The kleos exoria are different- they're cavalrymen, so by definition they're aristocrats with enough spare land to graze a horse and the wealth to care for one.
Yes everyting you noted is true and that's a part of the issue because this is a complex issue.

We are in a good spot right now because the Ekdromoi and the Kleos are two different groups of warrior elites. Different and small and take from different recruitment pools, though there is obviously some overlap.

This means both act as a counterweight to the other and without being completely unified as one whole neither can overthrow our democracy. But their rivalry is likely friendly enough and their communal bonds strong enough that they aren't dysfunctional with each other and can serve the polis.

Knowing this however one must acknowledge that hiring mercs is one of the few things that is guaranteed to piss off both groups. Which is a dangerous enough prospect without considering it would also piss off our vassal levies and our metic and citizen levies who hold both groups in the highest esteem. Which is enough to give someone a panic attack because hoo boy.

We are thus effectively in a situation where so long as our sacred units and levies are around in good shape we cannot hire mercs without triggering civil strife.

And at the same time, the only instance where we would be able to hire mercs would be after a few disastrous losses that ends with our sacred units and levies wiped out. But that carries the obvious problem that now we don't have an effective military around to guard against a merc army couping us.
 
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This argument seems to have gone to a kind of odd place. It was established by @Cetashwayo that mercenaries would a great deal of political strife unless they fit into two categories, neither of which will threaten our established warrior class and culture:
- Relatively small contingents in a specifically support role. (In which case the question arises as to why we would not use our allied levies instead.)
- Foreign (Greek) veterans offered colonial citizenship for service. (Effectively an extension of our existing policies encouraging immigration.)
Everyone seemed to accept that at the time, and @Cetashwayo said he's going to make another informative post explaining it in more dept.

So I'm unsure why we've spent another half a page beating a dead horse.
 
Because there are still arguments going I don't understand and I think the GM is wrong and also asking why the culture of the city would have such hang ups.

Simple as that
 
Actually...
Nisean horse - Wikipedia

Nearly all cataphract units levied by Persians, Seleucids, Parthians, and East Romans used this breed; so technically people of this era can already make heavy lancing cavalry complete with horse barding now, we'd just need to, you know, steal Persia's most proudly-held state secret breeds and transport it all the way from Persis to Megale Hellas.
... Doable?

Nevermind, the Laconics can buy them directly from Persepolis, why can't we?
Mea culpa -- for one, I misremembered the year, so the creation of proper heavy cavalry is less than a century away. So, yeah, right now we're just waiting for someone to get Scythian-style saddles, Nisean/Thessalian horses, and armored riders, all together in enough number to perform a massed charge. Which is something that we could try to arrange for the Kleos Exoria... except that they're only 50 strong, which isn't enough mass for the charge to work properly.
 
Thessalian heavy cavalry was genuinely pretty excellent, yeah, and is not that distant from us in time. Also the Roman Equites were also honestly pretty damn good during the Republican period, despite their entirely undeserved pop-history reputation. They were also effectively militia as well, and obviously from all around Italy, so are maybe a relevant example for us. Horse breeds probably won't change an awful lot from now until that time period.

Whether we use shock action now or a more kind of skirmishing style of cavalry warfare is an interesting question, which may have been established in one of the previous games. Shock actions do require a bit of coordination and a specific tradition, so on balance I'd guess perhaps not.
 
Mea culpa -- for one, I misremembered the year, so the creation of proper heavy cavalry is less than a century away. So, yeah, right now we're just waiting for someone to get Scythian-style saddles, Nisean/Thessalian horses, and armored riders, all together in enough number to perform a massed charge. Which is something that we could try to arrange for the Kleos Exoria... except that they're only 50 strong, which isn't enough mass for the charge to work properly.

For the saddle, we could also take the model from the celts. After for the number, I suppose that we could increase this by encouraging the wealthier patricians to engage in the unit.
If we could also create stirrup it could be awesome for the development of a heavy cavalry force.
 
For the saddle, we could also take the model from the celts. After for the number, I suppose that we could increase this by encouraging the wealthier patricians to engage in the unit.
If we could also create stirrup it could be awesome for the development of a heavy cavalry force.
The Celtic 'horned' saddle that you're thinking of doesn't exist yet, and the rigid-frame pommel-and-cantle Thracian saddle may or may not have been invented yet. Also, stirrups are somewhat over-valued -- when combined with a proper saddle, they permit a couched lance, and when combined with proper bows, they allow better horse-archery, but in and of themselves their main benefit is making it simpler to mount and dismount. Saddle design is much more important than having stirrups. Also, we're almost certainly not going to just snap-presto invent anything, regardless of how simple the idea is.
 
The other face of the issue is that despite all of that our Aristos also have heavy incentives to dislike mercs as well.

What people do not get is that the Ekdromoi and the Kleos Exoria are effectively a class of warrior elites. In the same vein as knights and samurai. Their prowess in war earns them a enormous amount of prestige, wealth and social capital. And because their numbers are so small it means that only the best and the richest have a chance of entering their ranks.

Meaning that for our elites these two groups are highly prestigious positions that affirms their arete and enhances their social standing even more. Thus it is desirable to them. Even more so for the less wealthy citizens.

The complaint of "But Herodion and the Kleos were heroes and mercs. So why would the modern Kleos Exoria be heavily against mercs" is like super fucking blind. You might as well ask the stupid question of why Toyotomi Hideyoshi a peasant who became lord of all of Japan systematically made sure that no peasant could ever replicate his ascension under his rule.

Because it's a position of power and influence and thus the group who took that path to power has a vested interest to insure that others cannot replicate that same feat. Thus preserving the illusionary prestige of the position and keep the power and influence within a communal group that shares a bond. Something that you would naturally want to keep out of the reach of literal outsiders of the group.

It doesn't fucking matter that say 600 merc cav would be useful. Our aristo cav and the warrior class of the Kleos would oppose it on the simple principle that it shits all over their glory and privilege. And given their social standing and social networks both within the polis and among our vassals, they could make it really hurt.

The thing is that mercenaries should be the least dangerous group to an elite like that, far below that of our allies and vassals, because mercenaries, especially barbarian ones, have basically zero social standing and are going disappear after a campaign. Because if they were as monofocused on preserving their privilege please explain to me how serving besides allies and our barbarian vassals is somehow better than serving besides some mercenaries who, just like our current allies, probably wouldn't exactly be deployed in position of honour anyhow. Groups like that should be far more worried about internal rivals than any external ones.

And your argument makes especially little sense if the Gm then supports the idea of using some kind of settlement scheme to attract quasi-mercenaries because that should be a far more dangerous to any such elite than anything I have proposing - they can#t really worry that much about their social standing if the support the full inclusion of foreign fighters into the league, can they?
 
The thing is that mercenaries should be the least dangerous group to an elite like that, far below that of our allies and vassals, because mercenaries, especially barbarian ones, have basically zero social standing and are going disappear after a campaign. Because if they were as monofocused on preserving their privilege please explain to me how serving besides allies and our barbarian vassals is somehow better than serving besides some mercenaries who, just like our current allies, probably wouldn't exactly be deployed in position of honour anyhow. Groups like that should be far more worried about internal rivals than any external ones.

And your argument makes especially little sense if the Gm then supports the idea of using some kind of settlement scheme to attract quasi-mercenaries because that should be a far more dangerous to any such elite than anything I have proposing - they can#t really worry that much about their social standing if the support the full inclusion of foreign fighters into the league, can they?

Because allies have loyalty to their own homes and families and their own polity; you know where they stand and that they have skin in the game (in theory) because their leaders have sworn sacred oaths to yours and you can trust them not to meddle in your own internal politics because they've probably got their own stuff going on back home and their own glory to look after.
 
Because allies have loyalty to their own homes and families and their own polity; you know where they stand and that they have skin in the game (in theory) because their leaders have sworn sacred oaths to yours and you can trust them not to meddle in your own internal politics because they've probably got their own stuff going on back home and their own glory to look after.

You are really trying to tell me that our allies and vassals, many of which after that amount of time probably have developed patron/client relationships, guest friendships, commercial relations etc., are less interested and less involved in our internal politics than some Illyrian tribal chieftain and his warrior band? Because it seems to me like the exact opposite should be the case. Indeed as I once jokingly said I would argue that any coup in Eretria is more likely to happen due to ties between some aristocrat/faction and the Peuketti than it is due to some outside mercenaries.

The whole reason why tyrants and kings tend to hire mercenaries is because they are less likely to be involved in internal politics and not more.
 
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The whole reason why tyrants and kings tend to hire mercenaries is because they are less likely to be involved in internal politics and not more.

No, because they are loyal to them and not the body politic. The tyrant cannot rely on a citizen body that despises them. Both Dionysiuses, Hiero and Gelo all used mercenaries as garrison troops and the basis of their armies while explicitly shunning citizen soldiers in subject cities who hated them. They gave citizenship to mercs and settled them to curate a new powerbase for their empires. When Hiero's family was deposed in real life most of the island descended into mercenary vs previous inhabitant civil wars.

The Eretrian model I proposed was just an errant thought, not a fully formed idea.
 
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The whole reason why tyrants and kings tend to hire mercenaries is because they are less likely to be involved in internal politics and not more.

I believe this is a point against mercenaries in the minds of the Eretrians. Their lack of involvement with internal politics is a bad thing in their minds because they have no stake against helping a would-be tyrant topple Eretrian democracy whereas citizens, metrics and allies have a personal stake in internal politics that makes them less likely to support any upcoming tyrant.

So from what I can tell, the nature of our military and politics makes our military forces having a stake in internal politics a positive thing rather than a negative thing so mercenaries having no stake and not caring is a mark against them.
 
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Hum, I know I don't participate much in debate *cough*mostly because I can't open my mouth without proposing ungreek reform*cough* , but I wonder if anyone had any ideas on reform to adress our lack of siege ability? My first reaction would have been to create a elite units, similar to those we already have, but working on siege engine is definitely an inglorious thing, no citizens would wish to be part of such an, ah « Elite » unit...
Perhaps, and it's just a maybe, we could have a VERY limited standing army composed of mostly Metic whose express purpose would be to work on the city siege capability and nothing else?
I mean, I am sure every citizen must feel their faces burn in shame at our inability to breach Taras wall despite our glorious victories in the field and be forced to accept a peace thrust upon us.
How could we allow something like that to happen again?
 
Hum, I know I don't participate much in debate *cough*mostly because I can't open my mouth without proposing ungreek reform*cough* , but I wonder if anyone had any ideas on reform to adress our lack of siege ability? My first reaction would have been to create a elite units, similar to those we already have, but working on siege engine is definitely an inglorious thing, no citizens would wish to be part of such an, ah « Elite » unit...
Perhaps, and it's just a maybe, we could have a VERY limited standing army composed of mostly Metic whose express purpose would be to work on the city siege capability and nothing else?
I mean, I am sure every citizen must feel their faces burn in shame at our inability to breach Taras wall despite our glorious victories in the field and be forced to accept a peace thrust upon us.
How could we allow something like that to happen again?
We're straight-up not going to get any sort of improvements to our siege capabilities that aren't borrowings from others. No ifs, ands, buts, or "clever" workarounds, Word of GM, because Eretria lacks the things that resulted in the innovation of siege warfare capabilities.
 
So I just googled the Histri and Dalmatae tribes of Illyria.

Was pleasantly horrified to see something about mountains and caves as forts or homes; Glad we're not on their bad side.

Now while we're not exactly on friendly terms with either of them, the Liburni are both our enemies.

Would Eretria use or make allies out of them to deal with Liburni in the Drakonid military mission? The area sounds like it's great for guerilla warfare and a slaughter for greek forces.

This right ,@Cetashwayo ?
 
We would probably get better at sieges if we were in circumstances that forced us to prosecute a bunch of sieges, especially under tight time and resource constraints. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all. Taking a rather zoomed-out view, this is how siegecraft tended to advance.

It's just that we really don't want those kind of circumstances to occur. It would not be a happy chapter in Eretrian history, at all.
 
We would probably get better at sieges if we were in circumstances that forced us to prosecute a bunch of sieges, especially under tight time and resource constraints. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all. Taking a rather zoomed-out view, this is how siegecraft tended to advance.

It's just that we really don't want those kind of circumstances to occur. It would not be a happy chapter in Eretrian history, at all.

I was thinking Eretria getting pulled into beating down Illyrians in their stone houses would generate the need for it barring a crisis elsewhere, but it would suck.
 
Mercenaries, their Advantages and their Issues
For some of this information I must thank the inestimable Dr. Roel Konijnendijk, known on reddit as u/Iphikrates. They remain an amazing source of information provided prolifically, eloquently, and freely, on a modern and evolving view on classical Greek warfare.

I would also like to say that I think this is an important subject worth discussing. You can consider this my "word of God" and ignore everything else, especially anything that contradicts this, because some of my statements were too blanket, delivered from a phone, or, I felt, not correct, after some thought.

What are Mercenaries?

Before we talk about mercenaries we need to discuss what mercenaries are. Mercenaries evolved into the system that we imagine in popular culture only over time as the system became more professional. In the archaic period, mercenaries were often not really mercenaries in the modern sense of transnational soldiers for hire, but rather the paid friends and network of wealthy aristocrats who could be pulled into assisting them in a coup of the city, or some military action. They did not have a significant or notable involvement in Greek history until the classical period, when they emerge as the primary force of the tyrants of Sicily, Gelo and Hiero, but how 'mercenary' these mercenaries really were is something we'll talk about. Mercenaries, whether from Thrace or parts of Greece, first emerge as aides to Greek hoplites in the area where many Mainland Greeks were weak, such as in skirmishing. We thus hear of Rhodean Slingers or Thracian Peltasts. Later, however, the growing number of mercenaries, the professionalization of the system as a consequence, and the growing use of mercenaries by Greeks eventually means mercenaries becoming the primary force of the polis, before Makedon puts an end to the polis as the dominant system of government among Greeks altogether and the successors in the east make extensive use of "mercenaries" (quotations needed as we'll get into).

Now let's separate this into some different types of "mercenary" to make a discussion about it simpler.

1. Specialized Bands. These are the "Kretan Archers" or "Rhodean Slingers" of Total War fame. Specialized bands of mercenaries, usually only a few hundred strong, were either recruited with an existing command structure in place, or as individual units recruited at the point of origin until there were enough to meet the amount the city needed. These bands might be of a non-Greek origin, or from around the Greek World. There is nothing particularly geographically determined about these bands, nor should we think of them as "elite", but merely those skilled in their area of warfare and willing to serve as mercenaries. Dr. Konijnendijk gives the example of how the Akarnanians (in central Greece) were seen as better slingers than the Balareans, but the Balareans were more famed; in part because they were simply more available. Think of it like a product. It doesn't matter if an Italian pizza tastes better than the best pizza in your city, because you only have a choice between the pizza places which you can access. Specialized bands were used to provide a quality edge to some area in which a polis was deficient during a war, and usually just hired for the duration of that war. These bands are useful, but it's easy to think too mechanically and assume they represent elites which Eretria cannot get. The Iapygians were famed for their skirmishers and light cavalry and that was what they were good at, and so Eretria already has this resource at home, and all without spending any money.

2. Mercenary Armies. Mercenaries have several advantages over citizen soldiers, even for a democracy like 4th century BCE Athenai. First of all, they don't care about the agricultural cycle because they're not farmers, so they can fight year-round. Second, their deaths do not impact the population of citizens. Third, given that we are talking about citizen militias here, mercenaries could often be just be better at warfare. This is not always the case; see, how, for example, the Romans were able to fight armies composed of professionals and succeed victorious, but the Romans also had vast reserves of manpower to cushion losses and an explicitly martial culture. Many smaller poleis did not necessarily have this culture, and as their citizens fought less and less it became harder to preserve what they had, or like Sparta their citizen army was so mauled that they never recovered. Carthage is the end-state of this mentality; Carthage remained a republic to the very end, though generals like Hannibal had wildly inappropriate amounts of power abroad, but aside from a sacred band of citizens at its core, the officers, and the cavalry, the Carthaginian army was an army composed of allies (such as north-african tributaries and Phoenician dependencies) and mercenaries. Carthage had a rather ingenious level of infrastructure, using its western Mediterranean maritime network to station recruits across the coasts of Spain, Africa, and Gaul, recruiting mercenaries from a vast pool.

3. State Mercenaries. This is really a more complicated issue. Gelo's "mercenaries" were given land and territory. I am not sure they were from outside of Sicily at all, rather than being allies and opportunistic Sikeliote freemen who joined Gelo and Hiero in their quest for honor and glory. In that sense, how much are these mercenaries and how much are they professional soldiers? I think there's something to be said for the fact that that they were a force in opposition to the subjugated citizenry of Sicily which was opposed to Gelo and Hiero, and later to Dionysius I and II. If they were professional soldiers then this effectively made the tyranny of these rulers a kind of military dictatorship or kingdom similar to that of the Diadokhi, who employed similar tactics, settling Macedonian veterans to become the farmer-soldier levy of their empires in the east. They're not quite professional soldiers, in that they weren't strongly tied to a single state (indeed, they were a valuable resource for the Diadokhi to compete over), but neither were they simply transient soldiers of fortune. Calling them state mercenaries seems to be the best; they're tied heavily to the success and support of rulers, but neither are they really just random foreigners, but rather deliberately settled and cultivated soldiers who became the basis of the state.

What are the Issues?

Well, that all sounds great. What's the issue with using mercenaries, then, in a general sense (NOT why Eretria won't use them, but their general drawbacks).

1. Cost. The most obvious reason why is expense. Through the 4th century BCE Greek cities just became far better at taxation and the collection of revenue. Athenai collected as much from internal revenue in the 4th century BCE as it did from its entire Empire in the previous century. Wealthier cities with larger coffers could fund mercenaries, but if they didn't have this kind of money hiring mercenaries was impossible. The most amazing example of this was when the region of Phokis, under sanction by the powers of Hellas for encroaching on the territory of Delphoi, home of the famed Oracle of Delphi, went absolutely sicko mode. They raided the sacred treasury of Delphi, seized 10,000 talents, and then proceeded to prosecute a massive war against the entire rest of Hellas they did not lose until Philip II of Makedon finally put them down. Yes, that Philip. But this also reflects how mercenaries can be extremely expensive as much as they can allow truly incredible feats of resistance against superior foes, and outside of extraordinary cases, mercenaries will be mostly the province of larger, richer states, with Carthage as the most obvious.

2. Unreliability. This is far less memetic than is imagined in things like A Song of Ice and Fire. While it is true that there are cases where mercenaries would turn around and betray their master, this is generally because they weren't paying them, which is frankly fair enough. It's a bit of a dick move to import a Thracian peltast from across the sea and then not pay them a fair wage. The problem is precisely in the term unreliable. You cannot rely on mercenaries. You can use mercenaries, and use them well, but when you are in an emergency and have run out of money, they will turn against you. There are also cases where mercenaries have been flipped by the enemy offering better pay, but these seem more like isolated intrigues, usually of garrisons, rather than of an entire army. Still, if you don't pay them, they will fuck you up, either by going off and conquering some territory for themselves, pilaging your countryside, or starting a massive civil war. Mercenaries by themselves may not end your state, but the disruption caused by them turning against you has a better chance of doing so.

3. Political Disruption. The problem for a citizenry posed by mercenaries follows a little like this. When an army is composed of citizens, it is loyal to the citizenry. When an army is composed of mercenaries, it is loyal to their paymaster. Now, this is not an inevitability. A number of cities were capable of maintaining mercenaries throughout the 4th century BCE without ever facing a coup from them. However, this required smart political management and consistent funding. In a situation where there was real desperation such as Syrakousai in the face of the Carthaginians near the end of the 5th century BCE, the danger emerges. Dionysius I's rise to power is instructive. In the face of Carthage he gained considerable political power. Then he staged an attack on his life and requested a guard of 600 mercenaries, which was then increased to 1000. Mercenaries were the most obvious source of protection: If you were under attack from citizens, could you trust citizens to defend you, and this must have made enough sense to the democratic citizen body (in a time of extreme fear) that they allowed it. Much like in a modern army coup, the mercenary leader exploits the unstable political situation, not the stable one. But this does not mean that the city would fallen to disorder anyway; it was a combination of the availability of mercenaries and instability that created this situation, just as a combination of popular military leaders after a revolution and an unstable political situation can easily combine into a dictatorship.

4. Peacetime Banditry. The problem with mercenaries is that this is a somewhat transient group of men who are used to a professional wage equivalent to that of a skilled worker, which is really what they are. However, when an area has a lot of mercenaries, and those mercenaries aren't patronized by a state, as they were not in Hellas, and it's peacetime, things start to get unpleasant. Mercenaries, finding themselves without skills at home and having effectively become professional soldiers without a war to fight, may turn instead to banditry and begin ravaging the countryside until they are dispatched, or in the most radical cases attempt to carve out some territory for themselves if they are ethnically distinct or very well organized.

You'll notice that many of these issues pertain to mercenary types 2 and 3, and not so much to one. This is obviously because with smaller number of mercenaries you're not going to get them becoming powerful enough to challenge the state, but all of these issues could be repeated on a smaller level depending on how you handle mercenaries and their pay.

Why is Eretria anti-Mercenary?

1. Suspicion of Mercenaries. Although Eretria has a number of allies and tributaries that it fundamentally relies on, these are often seen in familial or subordinate terms. They are trusted by Eretria because their relationship to it is long-established, with the most obvious inspiration being Rome's allies. Rome is also notable for never using mercenaries for most of the Republic and then exploding when it started using professional soldiers in conjunction with a dysfunctional political system. By comparison to allies, mercenaries are an unknown foreign element in Eretria whose allegiance to the city is temporary, and they are professional in a way neither the Hieros Ekdromoi or Kleos Exoria technically are since while both receive room, board, and lodging, when the city is not at war they're integrated into city life, not wandering off to go fight another war. In the city of stones everything is meant to build on the thing that came before, but mercenaries are transient and always moving from place to place looking for work; they don't represent a permanent addition to the city's arsenal but rather a temporary drain on its finances. Further, since the city has an ideal of the citizen soldier, there's an understandable dislike of them. However, this dislike was present across most of Hellas, and yet mercenaries were still used. So why not in Eretria?

2. Lack of Necessity. Eretria doesn't really need supplemental mercenaries. It outnumbered Taras by a huge amount in skirmishers and cavalry with the assistance of its allies. Through its allies, Eretria really and very easily removes the deficiencies it has in light cavalry and skirmishers, and the Iapygians were known as cavalry and skirmishers, and so it's not as if the city is starving for quality. Also through its allies it adds another 25% strength to its hoplite forces. Eretria hasn't fought many wars that would require mercenaries or have pushed its current military system to the brink; it revealed some issues in the quality of its Hoplites that the Antipatrids wanted to address. But that isn't really enough to start draining the city's coffers. As a city, Eretria is constantly attempting to re-invest money into itself as much as possible, and recruiting mercenaries without the need, or at the expense of using costless allies, would be deeply scrutinized. The other major reason is...

3. Political Opposition. The Kleos Exoria and Hieros Ekdromoi are made out of a particularly Eretrian ideal of martial culture. The city has faced few hardships to show the necessity to them that mercenaries can assist the city. The city has never been defeated by mercenaries, and in fact the Kleos Exoria have their origin in beating mercenaries as mercenaries; they are, in effect, even better than mercenaries, as they would argue. Without facing massive losses or being defeated in some battle or another, there is no reason for these two pillars of Eretrian martial culture to concede symbolic ground to the presence of professional soldiers in Eretria's employ in the same areas as them, nor should they, because there is no reason to. Eretria has never needed mercenaries and will never need mercenaries, until it does. And when it does get to that point, the city will prefer settling them as citizens in faraway colonies because...

4. Eretria is no ordinary state. The city has a history of assimilating those around it into permanent or near-permanent allies and agglomerating friends at a disturbing rate. It is also fundamentally a state of immigrants in a very peculiar kind of manner in which the city's continued survival is dependent on rapid immigration. If the city is in a situation where it feels as though mercenaries are necessary, even in a situation where they are on the frontline with the city's hoplites or assisting the cavalry, the city will try and figure out some way to transform those mercenaries into permanent allies because they're a major military asset that can be useful. A legion of farmer-soldiers to be called from around the Adriatic to come to their patron's defense is a useful group, and by committing them to various poleis rather than to a ruler or a dynasty they become integrated back into normal politics rather than serving as a threat to the city forever.

So all of this is to say that the city will be open to recruiting mercenaries when it is necessary, in circumstances when it feels it is necessary, in a reasonable way that it does not feel endangers the body politic and binds those mercenaries to the city. If there are reasons to recruit mercenaries, characters will consider those reasons and potentially open it up to the assembly to choose whether to recruit them. Until that point, the discussion of mercenaries remains an unnecessary diversion which has gotten too hostile. So let this be the last word and reference on the subject, and let us move onto to other topics that don't inspire such ill-will.

I will not accept any further dispute or complaint on this issue. I have said my piece.
 
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So I just googled the Histri and Dalmatae tribes of Illyria.

Was pleasantly horrified to see something about mountains and caves as forts or homes; Glad we're not on their bad side.

Now while we're not exactly on friendly terms with either of them, the Liburni are both our enemies.

Would Eretria use or make allies out of them to deal with Liburni in the Drakonid military mission? The area sounds like it's great for guerilla warfare and a slaughter for greek forces.

This right ,@Cetashwayo ?

The plan is to pull allies together among the Illyrians who don't like being dicked on by pirates just as much. Eretria has several traditional friends of its anti-piracy in the region, such as the Histri, Dalmatae, and the Enetoi, not to mention the Etruscans who could be interested in providing their naval assets.
 
The plan is to pull allies together among the Illyrians who don't like being dicked on by pirates just as much. Eretria has several traditional friends of its anti-piracy in the region, such as the Histri, Dalmatae, and the Enetoi, not to mention the Etruscans who could be interested in providing their naval assets.
Are you suggesting that we send our representatives out to these people and help them set up naval assets to pacify the Liburnians? Wouldn't that be interesting, all of us working together to ensure the free flow of trade.
 
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