If someone else has a better plan for saving Kymai, I'm all ears.
How about we reason backwards?

Instead of picking the strategy that has (to make up a number) a ten percent chance of ending the Oscan siege of Kymai permanently and a ninety percent chance of disaster, because all the competing plans have only a NINE percent chance of ending the siege permanently...

How about we instead reason "we cannot realistically hope to end the siege by land warfare, and instead we must concentrate on saving the people of the city?"

...

It's worth remembering that the Italiote tribes of this period are at least somewhat warlike societies. They raid and fight each other. The side that thinks they can get away with raiding the other will quite happily throw together a few hundred armed men and attack the other, in hopes of carrying away loot or war brides, or in hopes of driving away members of the opposing tribe and seizing control of a patch of land semi-permanently.

This happens all the time. Not literally every year, but quite regularly. As a consequence, no tribe holds territory it cannot defend against a raid. If it did, then the neighbors would raid that land until either it belonged to the new tribe, or until it became entirely deserted.

The Samnites will know how to deal with a few hundred raiders running around their territory. That's not an emergency for them. It's Tuesday.
 
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Or we could reason "this has bugger all to do with us, Kymai hasn't even asked for help, why are we making plans to jaunt a thousand miles around Italia for no reason, when we have lots of stuff nearer home needs doing?".
 
If someone else has a better plan for saving Kymai, I'm all ears.

This is something I was hoping to spin into an IC statement later on, but given what the numbers look like on the Oscan side, I don't think we can save the city by going on the offensive.

I agree we need some kind of visible military commitment, both to buy time and to signal credibility - I think the most persuasive course of action is to send volunteers and grain to help with the city's defense. If we are the ones on the last shop out of Kymai, and if we can transport its institutions and key symbols of continuity, disassembling the city itself to build additional ships, I think we will attract many more people than we might otherwise do.
 
We know Campania via Kymai and the other Greeks who live there, and can get better information over the course of the year we spend sorting out the Dauni. Samnium we don't know as well, but between the Dauni and Peuketii we should at least be able to get a basic idea of the terrain, and that's assuming we don't send in any scouts ahead of the expedition; Dauni "fleeing the Eretrian takeover" would be a good way to slip a few spies into Samnium who can get the lay of the land for us.

The food is going to be in one of three places: in the fields and orchards, in the flocks and herds, and in the towns. The first two are what we're targeting; the last we only go for if the towns either have no walls or can be taken by coup de main before the gates are shut, and if we'd have to siege them down we just bypass them and move on. Our horses, meanwhile, can graze locally, since we're not staying in any one spot for an extended period; if the foraging goes particularly well, we can supplement that with grain and produce taken from the Samnites.

Furthermore, since these are cavalry we're talking about, we can maneuver freely around pretty much anything that shows up and keep going. Ambushes are much harder to blunder into when your entire force is effectively composed of scouts and you can simply wheel around and leave if you see enemies that you can't beat without excessive losses or that form obvious bait for a trap.

Towns and villages can be located partly by sending in scouts before the actual campaign, and partly by following local water sources. Given that the Samnites are currently sending their youth off to invade the neighbors rather than setting down new villages in their own territory, however, I expect that most if not all of the decent agricultural land in Samnium is already in use and therefore there aren't going to be many true wild lands left in any place that isn't too rugged for cavalry; I therefore don't see it as likely that we'll end up wandering around lost in the wilderness until we starve.

Also, we'd be bringing along more than just the Kleos Exoria. This isn't a "fifty guys against all of Samnium" plan, this is a "let's gather up our cavalry, the cavalry of our allies, and as many Italiote cavalry as want to come and go on a good old-fashioned chevauchee" plan.

And as far as where we go to pick them up? Kymai. If that isn't viable on account of the city having fallen, the cavalry can just head south roughly parallel to the coast until they reach Hyele, continuing to maraud until they reach Greek territory. At that point we can pick them up pretty much wherever.

So while it's not the most simple plan, I think you're vastly overstating the actual risk to us. This isn't actually the Second Samnite War and we're not the Romans being lured into the Caudine Forks by a putative immediate threat to a local ally we don't have. It's a large-scale raid intended to disrupt the siege of Kymai for long enough to finish evacuating the city. We show up in a place, we loot it of everything that won't take a siege or a hard fight to grab, we move on; lather, rinse, repeat until we're in Campania and we can start augmenting this with deliberately picking off any Oscan detachments small enough and isolated enough that we can smash them with minimal effort and be gone before help arrives. And if this forces the Oscans to concentrate their forces it makes our job easier, because that means they'll have even more trouble keeping themselves fed, they won't be able to maintain as thorough a siege, and our raiders will have an easier time avoiding any attempts to catch them.





Pharos's usefulness will be superseded the instant we colonize Salona, which is a) a better harbor and b) will have a much easier time connecting to inland trade routes by virtue of being on the mainland. Issa will remain useful until it becomes possible to cross the Adriatic in a single day, which is centuries into the future of the quest.

Why would the Dauni flee from our armies into Samnium, instead of to other Dauni cities? Why would the Dauni who DO flee into Samnium speak Greek? Why would local Hellene know the locations of the Oscans and Samnites orchards, flocks and fields? They might know the area that they grew up in, but everyone else is trapped inside the city walls. Those who did not make it inside are all dead by Oscan hands. We would need to find people who grew up in the specific areas we would be traveling through. Assuming we CAN find the right people, this would only be useful to us until we hit the borders of hellenic territory. More likely then not, the people who lived on the frontier all died first so we would start losing our local guides long before we got anywhere near there.

Herds are mobile. Do we know the routes and schedules of the Oscan herds? Herds move around. It is what allows the Oscans to maintain a siege indefinitely. Even if we somehow gained the traditional knowledge we would need to know where the herds are at any given time of the year, they could simply move them out of the way as soon as they knew we were in the area. In addition, would a cavalry force have the ability to actually force its way into a walled settlement before an enemy can arrive to chase us off? These arent knights, these are light cavalry. Their primary role is as skirmishers. It is likely that the menfolk of local villages are armed, and are probably equipped to chase off potential raiders.

Even assuming you manage to rush the gates, what do you do if they decide to go out of the city and then shut the gates behind you, locking you into the city? You can loot and burn, sure, but your in the city, a light force of cavalry trapped in an urban environment where they can no longer maneuver, and can no longer run away unless they can get their horses down from the walls, or otherwise force the gates open and escape through the enemy force.

As for fields and orchards. Grain needs to be milled before it can be eaten. You dont just take grain off the stalk and cram it into your mouth. It needs to be processed first. The Oscans are also shepherds. They are not an agrarian society. Even if they have fields, they are not likely their primary food source, and so they would not be bothered overmuch by their loss. This also means they are unlikely to have orchards we can make use of. Even for us, olives and grapes need to be processed first before they are usable.

As for locating towns, wells are a thing. A running water source is useful, but it only goes so far, and some water sources go through terrain that is otherwise impassable to cavalry.

As for scouts? Scouts will be caught and killed by the local Oscans because they are a bunch of greek looking motherfuckers who don't speak the local language wandering around their territory. Even assuming they are mistaken for greek the Oscans did not kill yet, they are gonna be killed anyway, because the Oscans are killing anything that looks at them funny.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].

[I kept meaning to Leukos this up some more, but I haven't had time and/or haven't had original arguments to advance, except maybe this one]
 
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry its people wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].

Aniketos the Philosopher:

Truly the prowess in battle of Eretria Eschata is great, from the prows of our mighty triremes to the slings of our stalwart psilloi. Truly we have won a great victory over the Liburnians, proving the excellence of our strategoi and the favor we hold from the gods to all. Perhaps this means we are invincible? As divorced from the concerns of mere mortals as mighty Herakles, demigods over sea and land?

Of course this is not true, and such hubris is folly. Our victory was great, but comes hand in hand with new responsibilities and dangers. Do you believe that all across the Adriatic will celebrate our good fortune and look with smiling faces upon our new colonies, freshly picked on distant shores? Only the ready might of Eretria Eschata and its reputation far divorced from any failure or weakness will keep our prizes within our grasp.

A major commitment to Kymai at this point ignores the safety of our new colonists, it embroils us in dangerous waters far beyond even Sicily, risking our military might for nebulous benefits. Sure, a victory there could bring even more honor upon us, but what of a defeat? Beyond even the loss of men and ships, such a sign of weakness could invite others to test us who might have before held too much fear in their hearts.

And what of the Dauni? Should we not deal with the true enemies in our backyard before projecting our strength to distant shores? Involvement with Kymai now sets back any attempt at reigning the Dauni in for later, letting them grow in strength as we flounder distracted. Just as the Oscans are a long voyage away, the Dauni are on our own very doorstep; if our objective is glory, surely they are a richer target?

It is not as if we ponder fighting the distant Oscans at the head of some grand Hellenic coalition, nor is such a dream at all practical or feasible. We would fight alone, our power far from home, for a cause that is not truly ours. Let us aid Kymai in a more reasonable fashion, and not imagine ourselves to be the policemen of all Italia.
 
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Nah. It's actually really interesting how little Romans looked towards crafting divine mythologies. Their mythology basically extends to the founding of the city, be it under Aenas or Remus and Romulus. Which is remarkably telling, that Rome itself was not only the center of religion, but also literally the center of religion.

Hm.

That is interesting.

Why did they pay so little attention to the background of the gods though?
 
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry its people wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
Hm.

That is interesting.

Why did they pay so little attention to the background of the gods though?

Mix of reasons, but it would be quick to say that they identified the gods as personified qualities. This meant that stories were not necessary to explain their origins, and also meant that in encountering foreign gods of similar archetypes (Aphrodite = Venus), that they could simply adopt and share foreign mythologies under the perception that the same god was being worshiped in different ways. Cynically, it also meant that Romans could expunge local worship of gods like Baal in Carthage and elevate other gods like Tanit on the basis that they were more compatible with their own needs (Juno)

Other elements of Roman worship include ancestor worship, a facet that was intensely private and conducted in one's home before a family shrine and meant that the head of the family was a de-facto chief priest. Roman identification of natural phenomena as divine interaction meant that offerings and sacrifices were quite frequent, creating a self-perception that Romans were among the most pious peoples in the world. And of course you can also point to things like totemism with the wolf and bull being highly prized symbols.

As Roman society developed religion became intertwined with politics, which meant that it was intertwined with rule of Rome. This was in direct contrast to most Greek polises, which did not directly enter theocracy into active rule of the city, whereas men like Julius Caesar ran in elections to become Pontifex Maximus, meaning chief priest.

Also, there's some points of order that the Etruscans played a critical role in the early development of Roman worship, as it was said that the second King of Rome was an Etruscan who instructed his people on the proper methods of worship.
 
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I'll leave the vote open for a while longer. I've done some research that might require some changes to naval manpower- changes that will make the use of rowers less taxing on overall levies in order to align it with other states. Stay tuned.
 
@Cetashwayo

I meant to ask, why is it that Eretria has lucked into having a more efficient taxation system? You've called it one of our biggest hidden advantages, but what provoked the development of efficient taxation?
 
@Cetashwayo

I meant to ask, why is it that Eretria has lucked into having a more efficient taxation system? You've called it one of our biggest hidden advantages, but what provoked the development of efficient taxation?

It's a combination of two things. One is being a high-trust society in a critical situation, which led to the necessity of creating as much and as comprehensive a taxation system as possible given those circumstances. Aristocrats could sometimes give away a significant part of their yearly income to the state at the beginning, because these "aristocrats" were by and large risen hoplites who depended upon the revolution for their continued survival and prosperity. The other is simply a corollary of that, which is that as a revolutionary state Eretria developed a taxation system that prioritized state revenue above all, because the state was universally trusted by the populace to deliver for their needs. And so the development of a taxation system was in the pursuit of as a broad a base of taxation as possible.

As an addendum to that, because Eretria does not rely on slavery but metics, they provide an additional source of revenue through their very heavy tax obligations. Metic smallholders living on leased plots are an efficient source of revenue that other cities cannot rely on because slaves are not taxed. In a perverse way, because metics are a non-franchised free population, they have less value than slaves to the aristocracy, and so there's less likely to be complaint about taxation on them as opposed to slaves, because if a slave is taxed the owner complains, but if a metic is taxed the metic complains, and the metic is far less able to complain than a citizen aristocrat.

The closest comparison I can think of is the Jizya, which was the poll tax paid by non-Muslims in many medieval and early modern Muslim states. The Jizya was a massive source of state revenue, and when it began to diminish as non-Muslims converted, states could sometimes find very strange sources of revenue, like the Egyptian mummies which constituted a significant portion of the Egyptian Tulunids' revenues. Tomb raiding became state policy.
 
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It's a combination of two things. One is being a high-trust society in a critical situation, which led to the necessity of creating as much and as comprehensive a taxation system as possible given those circumstances. Aristocrats could sometimes give away a significant part of their yearly income to the state at the beginning, because these "aristocrats" were by and large risen hoplites who depended upon the revolution for their continued survival and prosperity. The other is simply a corollary of that, which is that as a revolutionary state Eretria developed a taxation system that prioritized state revenue above all, because the state was universally trusted by the populace to deliver for their needs. And so the development of a taxation system was in the pursuit of as a broad a base of taxation as possible.

As an addendum to that, because Eretria does not rely on slavery but metics, they provide an additional source of revenue through their very heavy tax obligations. Metic smallholders living on leased plots are an efficient source of revenue that other cities cannot rely on because slaves are not taxed. In a perverse way, because metics are a non-franchised free population, they have less value than slaves to the aristocracy, and so there's less likely to be complaint about taxation on them as opposed to slaves, because if a slave is taxed the owner complains, but if a metic is taxed the metic complains, and the metic is far less able to complain than a citizen aristocrat.

The closest comparison I can think of is the Jizya, which was the poll tax paid by non-Muslims in many medieval and early modern Muslim states. The Jizya was a massive source of state revenue, and when it began to diminish as non-Muslims converted, states could sometimes find very strange sources of revenue, like the Egyptian mummies which constituted a significant portion of the Egyptian Tulunids' revenues. Tomb raiding became state policy.
What do you mean by a high-trust society and what makes Eretria a high-trust society versus any other Polis of similar ability as us?
 
I had thought about it but I'm not a huge fan of how the name sounds. Doesn't have enough syllables in "Kymai" to roll off the tongue as nicely as Eretria Eskhata.
We'll just call it Kymai. Easy to say, historical, not at all confusing for future archaeologists,

More seriously, some name containing something like 'gift' or 'blessing' sounds apt. They've basically been saved out of a clear blue sky, so I'd expect that sort of thing would be on the colonist's minds.
 
Eretria as a Revolutionary State
What do you mean by a high-trust society and what makes Eretria a high-trust society versus any other Polis of similar ability as us?

Eretria is not a normal polis that leaves and goes off somewhere else. Eretria was a ragtag collection of a random strata of Eretrian society, disproportionately poor, and augmented by the freeing and granting of citizenship to slaves, that began with a revolution in which the remaining wealthy aristocrats had to concede effectively all of their domination at once to the poor. Then many of those aristocrats either had to go into trade because of a lack of land (with many of the early distributions giving out small plots to hoplites) or simply fell in status. Meanwhile, new men who owed their entire fortune, status, and glory to the revolution (Herodion, Antipater, Drako) rose up in status and attempted to emulate the old aristocracy without actually being old aristocracy themselves.

The "founding families" are effectively the Fathers of the Eretrian Revolution, and some of them rose from effectively nothing to their position. All of this is to say that because of this, and because of the circumstances of the early quest (Eretria didn't have a real freaking wall for decades), the priority was survival above all in a desperate and outnumbered situation during which Eretria faced something like five different opportunities to be totally destroyed. As a result its institutions trended towards high cohesion and trust and a willingness to invest extraordinary powers in ordinary people, because of the presumption of an equality of outcome, that outcome being death if they lost. Remember that the assembly was the only institution for several years, and new offices were only really elected after almost a decade in. At first it was truly "the people" and no one else who decided the course of the city.

Since then, obviously, things have begun to change. Memories of the revolution have faded and it sometimes been rewritten as a far more simple and less radical founding. The new aristocracy has re-trenched itself but has an entirely different relationship with the people than it would normally, because it is theoretically the safeguard of democracy, not its opposition. At the same time, like the Soviet nomenklatura or the French notables, this lies in contradiction to their fundamental class interest as wealthy aristocrats, and so that's why you see sometime trends towards a more oligarchical system (the deme factions) and their willingness to revert back to democracy in the face of popular pressure.

What's most important is the giant "break" that happened when the city was founded. Every single other democracy in the Mediterranean is evolutionary; it was founded as a development from prior situations and as democracies emerged, whether through popular revolt or through reform, they did so in the context of prior institutions. Eretria however was purely revolutionary, in the sense that it emerged as a decisive and complete break in the past. Compare with the Athenian Demokratia, which took decades to transform into a form that decentralized power from a few powerful demagogues and wealthy families, or the Roman Republic, which took centuries to grant full rights to the Plebeians and where much of the structure of the Roman Republic was clearly there, in some form, during the Kingdom.

And of course, saying it's revolutionary is not necessarily the same thing as saying it's good, so much as a matter of fact. The revolution was paid for by the blood of the indigenous peoples Eretria fought, and is now based upon the backs of the metics which the city is not just using as an urban labour force as in Athenai but as a peasantry. Many Metics are drawn from some of the poorest and most marginal areas of Hellas, like some of the smaller Aegean islands, Arkadia, Akhaia, and Central Greece. They're willing to make the trip to Eretria because of the opportunity it offers, but it's not that much better a life at home. In that sense the colonial reform is going to see some big changes.
 
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The revolution was paid for by the blood of the indigenous peoples Eretria fought, and is now based upon the backs of the metics which the city is not just using as an urban labour force as in Athenai but as a peasantry.
Being a peasant is a hell of a lot better than being property, and I'm fairly certain our 'peasants' have much more rights than their hypothetical counterparts in other civilizations. That's not to say I disagree with you, but I always have viewed our reliance on metics over slavery as a good thing. At least, in context.
 
Man, trying to export our revolutionary democracy to Epidamnos way back in the first quest would have had so many interesting consequences. Probably was the best call to refuse, but it would have been hilarious to see that snowball into an aggressive revolutionary outlook.
 
Being a peasant is a hell of a lot better than being property, and I'm fairly certain our 'peasants' have much more rights than their hypothetical counterparts in other civilizations. That's not to say I disagree with you, but I always have viewed our reliance on metics over slavery as a good thing. At least, in context.

All of that is absolutely true, but exploitation is exploitation. The Plebeians had it better than many slaves, but that didn't mean their lives weren't difficult or that they didn't want a better life. The statement I made applies to every single civilization in the Mediterranean, except replace Metics with slaves.
 
So @Cetashwayo ...

You are saying we are a bunch of ancient communists?

No, I'm not. Eretria's revolution has nothing to do with owning the means of production, and does not even exist in remotely the same context. Further, capital and commercialism are all in evidence, and divides of rich and poor have always existed and never been challenged. Ancient redistribution and demokratia has only some practical connections to communism, in that both theoretically want to redistribute wealth and give power to the people, but who the people are, what relations they should have to the state, and whether a state should even exist, etc...all of this is completely and wildly different.

Eretria is radical in an ancient context.
 
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