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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)

My Fellow Eretrians! We have heard of the augur's report of Great Zeus' opinion of Eretria's respect for the Hellene gods, with a demand that we start respecting the gods and acknowledging their role in the city's prosperity better, or else great ills will befall the city. Therefore let us start to do so by cleaning up our city including our temples. We stink! We really do! And of the three Demoi only the Exoria is proposing to start cleaning up our city! So I implore you to vote for the Proboulos of the Exoria, Archippos!

As for the xenoparakletor, I also implore you to ALSO vote Exoria! All of our Hellene neighbors are distracted by the wars abroad, so let us take this opportunity to secure all our non-Hellene neighbors while no one is looking! Before we lose this chance!

So I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi say to my fellow citizens!




...whoo boy. That's quite some research and thinking for an IC name. @Cetashwayo, is the family and personal name that I made plausibly acceptable in Eretrian society, in light of the fact that a large number of Eretrian citizens weren't Greeks in the first place during the Landing into Italy? Is it also plausible that with that background there are more people running around in Eretria with names of mixed Greek and non-Greek etymologies?
 
Erandil said:
I admit I don't really get all the Spartan hate/love for Athens. Why exactly do so many of you seem to prefer Athens that much? Sure it's a democracy, for a certain value of that word, but that doesn't stop it from being an arrogant, heavily expansionistic and imperialistic power who happily oppresses other greek states and I think socially speaking it actually is more on the conservative side than the majority of other states, especially when it comes to non-citizens. So to me there really doesn't seem to be that much difference between it and Sparta.

Indeed I would argue that Athens would perhaps be the more likely power to expand its hegemony over our region/italy if it secures a solid win in the war than Sparta might be though admittedly you could argue that before its disastrous decision to get involved in Sicily it mostly ignored the west so maybe I am a bit to fearful.
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In pragmatic terms, Athens has a lot of silver and wants grain, and Eretria has a lot of grain and wants silver.
 
I also recall Sparta looking down on us with disdain. Making it hard to set anything up with them because they don't take us seriously.

But then it has been several decades
 
There's also the historic ties of friendship with Athens (to the extent such things are worth anything) and the Ionian-Dorian divide. Also as McLuvin just pointed out Taras is a colony that was founded by Sparta, so our ongoing rivalry with Taras would make it incredibly difficult to have any sort of relationship with Sparta.

On another note, I'm becoming a bit concerned at just how easily Demos Antipatria is running away with the Proboulos vote. While they are my prefered choice, I'm concerned what the consequences might be if they make a clean sweep of every domestic office as it could limit our ability to make progress in other areas if they're so badly unchecked.

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
 
HastyGaming said:
On another note, I'm becoming a bit concerned at just how easily Demos Antipatria is running away with the Proboulos vote. While they are my prefered choice, I'm concerned what the consequences might be if they make a clean sweep of every domestic office as it could limit our ability to make progress in other areas if they're so badly unchecked.
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Looking back on it, yeah, I think it's been mentioned already that the more clean the vote the more influence they have over certain positions.

I still back my original vote as correct, but for the sake of moderating the Antipatids victory a little I'll change it.

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
 
kilopi505 said:
...whoo boy. That's quite some research and thinking for an IC name. @Cetashwayo, is the family and personal name that I made plausibly acceptable in Eretrian society, in light of the fact that a large number of Eretrian citizens weren't Greeks in the first place during the Landing into Italy? Is it also plausible that with that background there are more people running around in Eretria with names of mixed Greek and non-Greek etymologies?
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I don't think it's an issue, though such names might be restricted to the lower and middle classes, at least for now. We saw examples of Sabine or Volsci names in the lists of Roman officials, praetors and Consuls.
 
Inf0mercial said:
I can't seem to find slave numbers? I imagine they are far less then other Greek City states of the time but i am curious about serfs as well considering how restricted they are what the numbers are and their numbers compared to slaves because right now slaves/serfs seem to be invisible, or at least i can't find them.
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That's by design, it's difficult to get a full handle on the number of slaves and serfs in the city. Suffice it to say there's no more than 25,000 of them altogether, with the vast majority being serfs that work on the big estates.

Also, @Publicola @Simon_Jester @Telamon @Strypgia If you folks wanted to participate but hadn't seen the quest go up! I know there's some people who were past regulars (or who had likebombed the originals) still streaming in.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
The upside to reputation being so ephemeral, of course, is that it can be restored relatively straightforwardly if we can get some military and diplomatic successes under our belt.
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Ultimately, I feel like one of our best routes towards long-lasting prestige is economic strength. Military glories shine brightly indeed, but they also tarnish quicker than silver, as do armies; the best constructed armies tend to decay rapidly without proper maintenance and resources. (Look at the Philipo-Alexandrian military system after Alexander Megas' death.) So too with alliances and coalitions, and thus military glory won on the back of a coalition is perhaps doubly perishable. Keeping together an alliance requires a constant balancing act, and slips and falls are inevitable in the long run.

Economic and demographic strength, on the other hand, tend to be a little more robust. They still require constant maintenance and effort, but are less likely to disappear within the course of a single year. If we can become a powerhouse in several trades, if we can become an economic hub within the Adriatic and later, perhaps more optimistically, an essential stopping-off-point for most of the trade from the East to West Mediterranean? That provides wealth and resources that can maintain powerful military systems and tie other cities to us in alliances.

So too with our colonisation efforts and our initiatives to subborn and befriend Iapygia. The more Greek colonists set up farms in the interior, and the more barbaroi who partly hellenize and become closer linked to us in culture and trade; the wider the base of the pyramid we have supporting our army and our state. It is fanciful to dream of becoming like Republican Rome at her zenith, with a bottomless well of citizen soldier-farmers, ready to die for the Twelvehill. But every little helps.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Ultimately, I feel like one of our best routes towards long-lasting prestige is economic strength. Military glories shine brightly indeed, but they also tarnish quicker than silver, as do armies; the best constructed armies tend to decay rapidly without proper maintenance and resources. (Look at the Philipo-Alexandrian military system after Alexander Megas' death.) So too with alliances and coalitions, and thus military glory won on the back of a coalition is perhaps doubly perishable. Keeping together an alliance requires a constant balancing act, and slips and falls are inevitable in the long run.

Economic and demographic strength, on the other hand, tend to be a little more robust. They still require constant maintenance and effort, but are less likely to disappear within the course of a single year. If we can become a powerhouse in several trades, if we can become an economic hub within the Adriatic and later, perhaps more optimistically, an essential stopping-off-point for most of the trade from the East to West Mediterranean? That provides wealth and resources that can maintain powerful military systems and tie other cities to us in alliances.

So too with our colonisation efforts and our initiatives to subborn and befriend Iapygia. The more Greek colonists set up farms in the interior, and the more barbaroi who partly hellenize and become closer linked to us in culture and trade; the wider the base of the pyramid we have supporting our army and our state. It is fanciful to dream of becoming like Republican Rome at her zenith, with a bottomless well of citizen soldier-farmers, ready to die for the Twelvehill. But every little helps.
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Vote anyone but Drakon for domination of the Mediterranean salt market!
 
Erandil said:
I admit I don't really get all the Spartan hate/love for Athens. Why exactly do so many of you seem to prefer Athens that much? Sure it's a democracy, for a certain value of that word, but that doesn't stop it from being an arrogant, heavily expansionistic and imperialistic power who happily oppresses other greek states and I think socially speaking it actually is more on the conservative side than the majority of other states, especially when it comes to non-citizens. So to me there really doesn't seem to be that much difference between it and Sparta.

Indeed I would argue that Athens would perhaps be the more likely power to expand its hegemony over our region/italy if it secures a solid win in the war than Sparta might be though admittedly you could argue that before its disastrous decision to get involved in Sicily it mostly ignored the west so maybe I am a bit to fearful.
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I feel that's one place where our OOC take on things might influence our IC decision. While you are right that Athens was far from a city of saints, to say the least, it does remain the place where the basic principles of democracy where born. The first city where the vote as a right, instead of a privilege given to those who had money. It was also the place where most of the things we today associate with classical greek culture, wheter artistically or scientifically, where either born or reached their greatest level of achievement. Not for nothing did Athens remain a major intelectual and cultural center pretty much until Theodosius began his massive crackdown on paganism.

Sparta, on the other, hand wasn't simply on the conservative side of things, it was a bona fide proto-totalitarian state and one of history worst case of slave society. The famous quip about Prussia being army with a state was pretty much true with Sparta as every single element of their society was built around making good hoplites, with pretty much everything else sacrificed in the process. They where able to do so because of their hilotes slaves, who outnumbered the spartans by a massive margin and whose treatment was horrific even by the standards of the time.

Now, Sparta defenders often point out to its greater degree of gender equality and while it is, indeed, probably their one redeeming quality I feel its also important to not overstate. More personal freedoms and rights the spartan womens might have had but they remained solidly locked outside the political process and the ranks of the military, ensuring that Sparta remained a clearly patriarchal society.

Which bring me to Erasmos Dion and the Hippeis Eskhata. While the tales of his, and Alkibiades, visit to Eretria where definitely entertaining it remain the long term butterflies that strike me here. Athens actually came quite close to win a decisive victory in the first phases of the war, this might very well tip the scales in Athens favour. I would be especially curious as to how much damages Athens new cavalry can do to the Spartans rampaging through the countryside, especially since one of Sparta traditional achilles heels was their demographic problems making the looses of even a small number of Spartiates a hard blow to deal with. If they sustain enough casualties in that regard it might very well make them decide that raiding Atica isn't wort it, with enormous consequences not the least being that the damages of the Athens Plague might be substantially reduced since Athens herself wouldn't be so overpopulated when it hit.

Now, onward with the matters at hand :)

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''The gods have blessed Eretria since our fathers arrived in Italy. From destitution they raised us to great wealth, from fleeing refugees they raised us to might and power and from defeated exiles they made use the victors of both the nearby Barbarois and the Syracusans alike. For those blessings they have received only little from us and they now manifest their displeasure to this states of affairs. By reconstructing the Hill of the Devine we will make ammends with the gods, ensure that sunny Apolo and wise Athene continue to favour our city, ensuring it remain prosperous and victorious against all ennemies. Who better to do so then Kyros Gennadios, who has always forcefully reminded us of the need to give the gods proper respect and deference?

While supervising the reconstruction of the Hill we also need to remain ever vigilent to the threats represented by Taras and Syrakousai and gather around us friends and allies to face them on the field if need be. The brave Obander will remake our old alliance with Metapontion and will prove our worth to all italiotes cities by acting against the Brutii threat!''

So spoke the hoplite Nikephoros, son of Lysander, who bore his name for being born soon before the news of the great victory over Syracousai came to Eretria.

[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
 
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A cleaner city is hopefully a bit more resistant to disease, which is good, as plagues in this era, when they really got going, could be pretty devastating to cities. Plus even more prosaic maladies like parasites and the like can essentially sap our effective able-bodied citizenry.

Although to be honest, not having visitors to your city who are considering you as a future ally or trade partner remark about how your streets were full of shit is probably a benefit in itself.
 
Ultimately, I prioritized handling the Metics and building a major temple over cleaning our city and reforming land Distribution, but it was a near thing. Really, the bad omen was the decider, as well as wanting to play to our strengths and properly utilize a non-slavery based economy. We're set against that for more reason than principle, after all.
 
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They're all good options, and things we want in the near future, I think. Each will be a pillar of the city moving forward. Utilising our vast natural harbour so we don't end up limited in trade, properly venerating the Gods, and a cleaner, healthier city fresh flowing water, they're all essentials.

Later on, I suspect the Great Works we consider may become slightly more specialized, and perhaps predicated on our broader strategy.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Later on, I suspect the Great Works we consider may become slightly more specialized, and perhaps predicated on our broader strategy.
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Any ideas as to what that's gonna be? I mentioned thinking about what we wanted to get from the big war (A phyrric Athenian victory seems like it would suit our interests best) and that was linked to another, larger matter - our overall strategy. What do we want, and how are we going to get it? In the short term, establishing our control over southern Italy is an obvious objective, and the how pretty clear - crush Taras and block either Korinthos or Syracuse from getting their fingers into the pie, perhaps forming a greater greek league of the city states on Italy.

As for the long-term ... my fixation is on forming a nation-state. City-states are just too fragile and ephemeral to project lasting influence, either economic or through force of arms. If we want our polity to last, we need to evolve it to a higher form of government. The question there is how we exactly go about doing that, and that's a lot more difficult to figure out.
 
Why is it called the Gate of the Weasels? I MUST KNOW.


Leukos the accountant is most easily identified by his nose, badly broken by an oar-butt some years ago. In order to speak, he rolls up a modest stone that is almost round enough to serve as a wheel, one which supported his father and grandfather. He positions himself carefully; it is not a wide rock.

...

Theron may have a reputation for being tight-fisted, but it is unfair. I admire the man. I respect his commitment to the law. And though I may have less of a sense of smell than most, not even I can deny the merit of his desire to cleanse the city of dung.

On the other hand, returning to the city after two years abroad and at sea, I cannot help but notice the grim expressions on the faces of the metics. I am amazed that no one has called the Metic Assembly in my absence! If Theron does not see the need to do this... Leukos shakes his head sadly. Perhaps it is simply that day by day, some of the citizenry have grown accustomed to this, not seeing the changes all at once, as a man may grow more accustomed to the cold as the hours pass, until he catches his death of the winter's icy grip.

And even more importantly, the auguries are clear. The great gods are angry at the parlous state of their homes. This is a good time to build temples. Kyros it is!

As for the Xenoparakletor, it seems unwise to choose a speaker-to-foreigners who is famous for his bluntness that will enrage the foreigners, or for his rambling speeches that will confuse the foreigners. Thus, I cast my vote for Mnemnon!

[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
 
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Why "Gate of the Weasels"?
  • Apocrypha
    • Simon_Jester said:
    Why is it called the Gate of the Weasels? I MUST KNOW.
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    In the original game one particular bastard player who decided to be a smartass googled "weasels ancient greece" and then attempted to convince me that weasels were tamed and used as pets in Ancient Greece. Having dropped this nugget of insight, they subsequently demanded that I give players the option to democratically introduce weasels into the Eretrian household. Despite my many attempts to tell this player to stop informing me about the possibilities weasels could bring to the game, they did not let up, and in the end I believe we agreed to disagree about the use of weasels in antiquity.

    In hindsight, the venom and viciousness of this argument was absolutely absurd, and amused me so much, that I decided that this was an in-character argument between citizens in the assembly that was so legendary that when one of the citizens violently chased the other out of the city through a half-finished gate of the wall, they named that gate after the weasels that had caused such a terrible fracas, immortalizing this stupid debate for all time, and forcing children many years later to wonder why precisely it was called the Gate of the Weasels.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • LonelyWolf999 said:
    Any ideas as to what that's gonna be? I mentioned thinking about what we wanted to get from the big war (A phyrric Athenian victory seems like it would suit our interests best) and that was linked to another, larger matter - our overall strategy. What do we want, and how are we going to get it? In the short term, establishing our control over southern Italy is an obvious objective, and the how pretty clear - crush Taras and block either Korinthos or Syracuse from getting their fingers into the pie, perhaps forming a greater greek league of the city states on Italy.

    As for the long-term ... my fixation is on forming a nation-state. City-states are just too fragile and ephemeral to project lasting influence, either economic or through force of arms. If we want our polity to last, we need to evolve it to a higher form of government. The question there is how we exactly go about doing that, and that's a lot more difficult to figure out.
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    My personal long term goal is Hegemony over the Adriatic Sea Coast and Southern Italy and Northern Sicily before the OTL date of the Pyhrric Wars. A difficult task, but one I think we can accomplish.

    As for creating a State over a League, we can do so gradually, Eretria has always been a fan of Binaries, slowly creating a distinction between 'Eretrian' and 'Everyone Else' could aid us in forcing those under our rule to slowly bring themselves more in line with our control. Eretria is already a freak amongst Greek States, and it's social structure and demographics will promote more change. Though a truly centralised state is probably a dream, as it goes too far away from Hellenic Ideals, we'd have to divorce ourselves from our identity, or redefine it in an impossible way.
     
    LonelyWolf999 said:
    As for the long-term ... my fixation is on forming a nation-state. City-states are just too fragile and ephemeral to project lasting influence, either economic or through force of arms. If we want our polity to last, we need to evolve it to a higher form of government. The question there is how we exactly go about doing that, and that's a lot more difficult to figure out.
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    We don't. :p

    The idea of a nation-state isn't possible without a broadly shared national identity, which requires some form of mass communication - print is about as early as we can do it. It's possible to build a collective elite identity across a large empire - China managed it - but people's identities are very much tied to their polis at this point.
     
    Secretariat said:
    We don't. :p

    The idea of a nation-state isn't possible without a broadly shared national identity, which requires some form of mass communication - print is about as early as we can do it. It's possible to build a collective elite identity across a large empire - China managed it - but people's identities are very much tied to their polis at this point.
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    What are you taking about? We're surrounded by several, and a particularly infamous one will take over the entire 'Mare Nostrum' in a few hundred years. None of them had printing presses or radios.
     
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