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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Ironanvil1 said:
I'd kinda assume the Peuketti populace trades with their Dauni counterparts though, and we trade with the Peuketti.
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Yes, but the Peuketii elite monopolize trade to themselves and control points of access to the Eretrians, as hellenization and Eretrian products are a symbol of the elite. It is a similar process to what you saw in the archaic period in Etruria with a new more international equestrian elite that derived its status from luxury and cross cultural ties. The cattle drive is a good example, as only tribal Peuketii and elites own large herds.
 
McLuvin said:
Except here's the issue.

The two cities that would allow themselves to be annexed are right on the door of their capital, on the other side of the natural borders that defined our relationship for generations. If we try to claim them? The Dauni would have no choice but to fight for them.

At which point we may as well take the whole damn thing if we're fighting them anyway.

If we're not annexing them, then we face the problem that their Kingdom has a precedence of economic interference by their Monarch. Recall that a previous King tore down the salt works, and preceding Kings then prevented them being rebuilt.

Further we'd be paying sums of money in bribes and more advantageous trade, without getting Tribute or the Salt for a serious length of time.

We'd essentially be throwing money at a long term investment that will probably result in war anyway.

Further this ignores the fact the Dauni King is still a decent politician, he's been unpopular for years, yet managed to project a sense of unity and strength before we were outright told he's unpopular, I recall it being somewhat of a shock IC for some. Further he's maintained power despite being embarrassed by rebellious Vassals all those years ago and he, if the initial descriptions of his ruthlessness are anything to go by, has already taken down multiple political opponents.

Then there's the diplo actions we'd have to throw at this. When we're already having the amount lowered by the QM.

In essence it is outright inefficient to try this 'Divide and conquer' plan. Both in action economy and in actual economics.
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even if it leads to war anyway, we will have removed a significant portion of Dauni I warriors from play. All at little to no cost to us while we still get what we want. Great is the strategos who wins the war in a single blow. Greater still is the strategos who never strikes a blow at all.

All the while we offer riches and protection to the other cities. Trade to make them rich, and our hoplites to make them safe, and a light yoke and easy tribute. While they get to manage their affairs however they please so long as the salt, talents, and levies are provided. It is a better deal than what their ' king ' offers now. They would be tools to refuse.
 
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@Redium Great post starting this off.

Leveraging the investment we make in the harbour is pretty necessary. I think that our foreign policy of choice at this point should be fairly Drakonid - tidy up the issues that seem to be cropping up around Ankon, maybe buy some more colony sites, get not-Venice, set up colonies elsewhere in the Adriatic.

However, we are only one actor among many. We'll not be able to pursue a foreign policy free of interference from our neighbours. And while I don't place the Dauni high on my list of priorities, I don't think they should be underestimated. They could seriously hurt us if they attack when we are straining to deal with one of the stronger powers - Korinthos for example.

Also, salt in an age before mechanized mining and cheap fossil fuel energy is worth its weight in gold or even more. We can seriously profit from subjugating the Dauni. The only reason why they aren't higher on my list of priorities is that not-Venice will likely synergize much better with the choices we've made thus far.

(Certainly, with the manpower of the Dauni, the money from salt and tribute and finally getting in those military reforms, I don't think we'd be in danger from the Samnites. Sure, I wouldn't go up into the Samnite mountains, but I think we'd be safer from the Samnites with the Dauni subjugated, not less safe, as some seem to think. Eretria is not Kymai - we were a level above even before the Kymains suffered their recent defeats and our recent expansion and the Samnites just finished exporting their demographic excess to Campagnia.)

At this point, Korinthos is our main concern I believe.

Also, I don't want to let things rest with the Metics. Probably we'll want to continue gradually reforming their status, if we've been successful with splitting the prosperous Metics who live in the city from those who are sharecroppers, I am concerned that this will allow the immiseration of the sharecropper class.

fasquardon
 
Ultimately no matter how we do it i think that Danui question should be warped up before our time frame with Syracuse runs of, or Korinthos is free , basically before any bigger threat appears to challenge us because in those cases last thing we want is stab in the back.
 
We should demand the head of their king no matter what. We should have them uplift a new king so that they would be dependant on us and not resentful of their station and of our yoke.
 
I'm not sure where this idea that beginning trade and perhaps alliances with Salapia and Herdonia and other Dauni cities would require like, twelve diplomatic actions is coming from. We've been able to achieve pretty big things with single diplomatic actions before, so long as they're conceptually and geographically tied, and these would be.

Nor would this mean holding back on the salt, which is another rather odd idea. If we were engaging in a trade deal with Salapia and Herdonia, rebuilding the saltworks would be very much the point.

It's essentially a fait accompi to Auscolos. Of course, he's free to declare war as a result of us rebuilding the saltworks, but he'd signing his own death warrant if he did so. Or he can burn the saltworks again, but at that point Salapia and Herodnia will definitely ally with us out of anger, so he still loses.

The smart move on his part as I've said would probably be to try and play along, and insert himself as middleman, gaining time and money. Which we can still work with.
 
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Turn 11, 355 OL: City of Widows
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    • Turn 11, 355 OL: City of Widows

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    355 OL
    Kymai, Campania

    You men of Kymai speak of sacrifice.

    We are the ones who watched on the walls for those that never came. We are the ones that comforted the children without fathers. We are the ones who hid our faces in public and wept ourselves to sleep. We are the ones who are husbandless wives, fatherless daughters, childless mothers. We are the widowed of Kymai, and you dare speak to us about sacrifice?

    You men who did not have the honor to die, men who did not have the courage to stand and fight, men who ran away into marshes that stank of death. We are grateful that you have returned, for we are not so cruel as Spartans, but you come to us now and tell us of the need for sacrifice?

    Observe Phoebe. She was a daughter of Kymai. Her father loved her and he raised her well. She knew how to sing and dance, how to present herself in public, how to weave and how to be silent when the men were speaking. She was everything that a daughter ought to be. She sacrificed for her family, and when her father promised her away, she accepted it as every daughter should. And when he fell upon the field, and she mourned, as a daughter should, and put aside her dowry for her father's funeral and the city's defense. She put aside her chance for happiness and chance for home life for the sake of her father and the city, and yet you speak to us on sacrifice?

    Observe Nysa. She was a wife of Kymai. Her husband loved her and she returned the favor. She knew how to help him in his business, to manage his slaves, to ensure that his daughters were in good moral standing. She knew how to prepare a symposium, how to comport herself in public, how to impart a sense of matronly virtue that only diligent wives can truly show. She was proud of the family she and he had built. And when he fell upon the field, she vowed revenge as a wife should, and donated to the city so they may might hold against the Oscans. She put aside her wealth and children's future for the sake of her husband and the city, and yet you lecture us on sacrifice?

    Observe Eirene. She was a mother of Kymai. Her sons were many and all had her best qualities. In the absence of their father, she had taught them how to hunt, how to speak, how to respect their fellow citizens and how to defend themselves against injustice and injury. She was called a she-wolf, for she attacked viciously any who threatened her boys, and believed fiercely in the liberty of the people of Kymai against those oligarchs who would have it all to themselves. She stood tall above her children, because she knew that each and every one was a testament to her profound legacy. And when each of them fell upon the field, six sons wiped out to a man, she screamed and wailed as a mother should, and sold all her lands and jewelry to the city so that they might fund the grain shipments. She put aside the legacy of her family for the sake of other hungry sons and the city, and yet you advise us on the necessity of sacrifice.

    You men of Kymai, you cowards to the last, you emasculated creatures who walk about the walls as if we are at the precipice of victory. You may have your pride, and your city, and all its barren lands, but we reject it all. We have sacrificed enough for a dream of resistance that now awaits only to die.

    We are the mothers of Kymai, and we choose our children. We are the wives of Kymai, and we choose union with the Epulians. We are the daughters of Kymai, and we choose the future.

    We are the women of Kymai, and we choose life.



    ​
    Goings on from around the Mediterranean, presented by Xenoparakletor Obander Eupraxis of the Demos Antipatria

    OBANDER:     Citizens! Let us take this opportunity to take stock of the world. Though disorder has gripped Hellas for many years, Italia has enjoyed a great deal of peacefulness, and the Sikeliotes have finally become victorious over the interior barbaroi. Is it not a fine thing that we live in times such as these, where the worlds turns at such a rapid pace, and all of us here observe its tumult from the safety of our fair and illustrious city? Is it not a recognition of our greatness that we are able to speak of all these happenings grave and good with such interest and effort, and not turn inwards towards ourselves? Surely, this is the greatest attribute of the Eretrian, who does not close his doors to outsiders and sits in splendid isolation, but instead observes the whole of the world and the machinations of the fates upon our lives!

    Now let us turn to the news from the Mediterranean.

    News from Hellas! Laikadaimon and Athenai have concluded a general peace in their war against one another, but already it frays. The peace called for an alliance between the two powers, the ending of armed conflict, and a land trade of the silver-rich city of Amphipolis by Sparta to Athens, and the fine Messenian port of Pylos by Athens to Sparta. But the Amphipolitans have refused to surrender themselves to Athenai and its heavy demands of tribute and silver from the mines of the Pangaion Hills. Despite the Spartan urging, they will not yield, and so Athenai in turn will not surrender the city of Pylos to the Spartans. All the worse for the Spartans, who have been dealt a heavy blow by this peace as the Delian League they sought to dismantle still stands, their allies of Korinthos, Megara, and Thebai were not included in negotiations despite facing the brunt of conflict. There is widespread outrage in the Peloponnese, and a general impression of Spartan weakness and betrayal of its allies. This may bode ill for the peace's continuation, and I have spoken with the Tarentine proxenos who is of the opinion that the peace will not hold for more than a few years. All the more urgent, then, for me to embark next year to Athenai and better grasp the atmosphere there. Elsewhere in Hellas, the long-quiet Argives have formed an alliance with Korinthos.

    The city of Skione has been destroyed by the Athenians after its capture, with the population sold into slavery. However, Brasidas' campaign has severely eroded Athenian fortunes in the Chalkidiki, with many of its cities joining the Chalkidian League organized for their mutual protection. Athenai maintains control only of the three prongs of the trident, with the most notable city in their possession being Potidaea.

    Delphoi, long known for its conflicts with the surrounding Phokians, has declared its independence from them. Without Athenian support, the Phokians have little likelihood of being able to counter these moves.

    News from the North! Fighting between the Etruscan city of Felsina and its neighbors continue. All have taken great use of the Keltoi, a group from beyond the mountains, who have increasingly settled in the territory and intermarried with the most promiscuous Etruscans, known as they are for the freedom they afford their women and the mischief those women get up to! Let it never be said that an Eretrian woman would marry an outsider so easily, let alone one who smells so! Little news has come from Thrace.

    News from Italia! The siege of Kymai continues, with no end in sight; the Oscans have taken mostly to surveying the walls and watching from the interior rather than attacking the city outright, but all who venture out to fight them do not return. Barnabas has embarked on a strategy of isolating the Lokrians. He has the support of the Tarentines, with whom Rhegion has negotiated a trade treaty that limits their sphere of influence to south and north of the Straits of Messana respectively. Krotone under Ajax the Fist remains neutral, though there is pressure to move against Lokri themselves, though fear of Thurii retaliating against Krotone for such movement remains. Syrakousai is distracted by the Sicels, and in any case has little interest left for Lokri, which is no longer capable of projecting power outside of Italia, surrounded as it is by Sikeliote allies and friends. Barnabas has brazenly declared a section of disputed lands between the two cities as sacred, and Lokri has taken the bait, declaring war. With Metapontion pressured by Taras to stay neutral, the Thuriians cautiously watching Krotone, and Krotone restrained by the Thuriians, there appears to be little respite for Lokri, though this may change if the war goes very poorly for them. So far, Rhegion has seized the city of Medma in a coup, and defeated the Lokrians in battle, but not decisively. The Lokrian fleet, though small, has not yet been destroyed, and the city has defeated a coup attempt in the city of Metauros by Rhegion. Certainly, this war will shake Italia to its core, for if Rhegion emerges the winner it will have greatly augmented its power.

    The Oscans and Lucani appear to have fully settled down. There is little news of further movements and a treaty has been signed between the chief of Paestum, once Poseidonia, and Hyele, agreeing on trade and mutual respect. There is movement among the Dauni, however, as it is rumored that King Ausculos is seeking to reconcile the cities of Herdonia and Salapia by allowing trade with the Eretrians once more, though little has come of this yet. In Canosa, an Eretrian merchant witnessed a group of Peuketii farmers murdered for slaughtering a nobleman's ox. A most peculiar sight, though one that we have been told by Gorgas has been unfortunately commonplace as the common rabble has grown very excitable as of late...I will embark to investigate this next year when we embark to the Messapii. I have no instinct for such things, but it provides me the impression of grave unhappiness among the people in the Peuketii lands, much unlike that which was reported by Mnemnon years ago. We are unfortunately heavily reliant upon the barbaroi to report on their own affairs, a policy of kindness that clearly has its drawbacks.

    News from the West! The Sicilian Sacred War continues. Agyria and Herbessos, remained Agyrion and Erbessos, have fallen to the Sikeliotes and Gela respectively, but Akragas' offensive against Enna has crashed up against the extraordinary walls and powerful defensive position of the settlement, which commands a view of the surrounding lands and is situated on a nearly inaccessible promontary. With the city unlikely to fall to Akragas' siegecraft, they have embarked on expelling the farmers and shepherds from the surrounding lands instead, alloting the land to their own farmers and poor urban laborers.

    Few other actions were observed this year, and it is likely that the war against the Sicels will soon come to an end, for there is growing rumors that with Carthage's war against the Numidians finally finished with a mutual peace of friendship, the Magonid Carthaginian family may urge to revenge their ancient patriarchs and invade Sicily once more. Selinous has been urging the other cities to cease their war and make peace with the Sicels, as Syrakousai has already done, but it is more likely that Gela and Akragas may instead come to blows over their own territories, given their mutual distrust.

    As for the general itnerary of the xenoparakletor, in this year I will journey to Melaina Kerkyra, Epidamnos, and the Daorsi, and negotiate for land among the barbaroi. I will also embark once more to Kymai. Next year, I will embark again to Kymai, journey through the lands of the Messapii, and undertake an expedition to Athenai in order to establish an official proxenos there.

    Goings on from within the city, presented by Proboulos Epiktetos Linos of the Demos Drakonia

    EPIKTETOS:     This has been a busy year for Eretria. Though we remain in deficit, the foundation of the Register of the Merchant Fleet has seen immediate results. We have been able to discover a number of merchants in the city who had either been missed or were deliberately neglecting paying their dues for trade in the city, and although a number of merchants have protested at the cost of the indigo coloring for their ships, most have accepted this, especially given the city already has constitutional authority to control the direction of merchant trade. The revenues arriving in our coffers have significantly raised our trade revenue, and should help defray the costs from the decision to reduce the taxes of the urban Metics, some of whom I am told have already begun purchasing properties.

    Now let me speak to this matter. The Metoikoi are not citizens, but they are Eretrians. Some do not understand this. Following the success of this Metic assembly, a group of hooligans calling themselves Sons of Eretria have taken to assaulting an elderly Metic man. This matter was brought to my attention by their representative, and the group have been tried and fined for this. But we must never forget that the Metoikoi, despite not having the honor or the constitution to dwell among the citizens in the assembly, and not sharing in the same struggles, have nevertheless been with us for a long time. They trade in our stalls, row in our fleet, and fight in our armies, with some even able to afford panoply; it must therefore be said definitively that we must not seek to antagonize or anger them. To be sure, the decision to bring so many Metics into the city by prior administrations may have contributed to tensions, but we must also not forget our own role as citizens in serving as examples to the Metoikoi. We are their patrons and sponsors, but we are also their friends and comrades, and we cannot allow momentary anger to forget that they are not foreigners or barbaroi but in fact Eretrians of a different type.

    Construction of the harbor of Byssos continues apace. It shall truly be an extraordinary harbor, and in fact I have been able to organize a deepening of the harbor in certain areas that shall expand its capacity even further (1d20+3=17, +5 Trade route capacity in finished Byssos Harbor). However, I would also advise that citizens avoid the work camps during the summer months, as it has been reported that there are outbreaks of disease among the workmen due to what I am told by our esteemed physicians is an outbreak of blood imbalance brought upon by the heat.

    I would like to acknowledge Alexis, son of Kallias Aristeides, who has made an extraordinary contribution to Eretria in the form of his Union of the Amazons and Scythians. Performance of the play, which has won several awards at the festival of Apollon and Artemis, will continue throughout the summer months and is open to all citizens and Metics free of charge. It is advised that men bring their wives and daughters in order to observe the important moral lessons on display by the work.

    The following citizens are given cash rewards for their participation equivalent to one-month's wages. Dareios the One-Named, Kipekos the Wide-Speaking, Aniketos who calls himself Philosopher, Nikephoros the Hoplite, Karenos the Hoplite, Ajax son of Lalage, Isigas son of Euplastos, Eugenios the Stonemason who was recently victorious in suing for the drachmae owed to him in the repair of his hearth, Gregorios Alexios, Timanthes son of Thymoetes, Phokion Aristeides, Leander Long-Speaking, Kalyx the Animal Breeder who a few have asked to see in regards to the health of their horses, Hermesdora Eretriazenis, Nereos son of Theodotos, Phylakos, who is asked to restrain from calling himself Savior of Kymaians in an act of vainglory, Skantarios the Hoplite, Leukos the Accountant, Kyrillos who loves Salt, Philometer son of Nikolaos, and Kleon son of Aristophanes.

    I thank all especially who participated in the long and heated debate on the subject of Kymai and its inclusion in the Linean Laws. I accept the decision and praise those who spoke intensely for it.

    Demography & Culture

    Eretria Eskhata - 355 OL
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    Adult Freemen: 24,181 (Census of 353 OL)
    Citizen Ratio: 42.0%
    Adult Male Citizens: 10,156
    Adult Male Metics: 14,025
    Total Free Population: 84,254

    Patron Gods: Divine Marriage of Athene & Apollon
    Other Major Gods: Poseidon & Demeter, Zeus, Ploutos, Artemis
    Political Offices
    Next Election is 357 OL.

    Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia).
    Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria).
    Lead Strategos: Only appointed in times of war.
    Metic Prytanis: Timotaios Herais (Demos Antipatria).

    Agoranomos: Itheos Akadios (Demos Exoria).
    Assembly of the Mint: Krethon Ibykos (Demos Exoria).
    Popular Tribunal: Sosibios Kineas (Demos Drakonia).
    Chief of Public Lands: Kebes Bisaltos (Demos Exoria).
    Grand Mantis: Parmon Polyeides (Demos Drakonia).
    Elder Ekdromos: Austesion Sabyllos (Demos Exoria).

    Great Works

    Wide Walls: Proud stone walls that protect the city from enemies.
    Sea Wall: Protect the city from any sea-based attack.
    Arkadion: A Temple to the Divine Marriage of Demeter & Poseidon.
    Temple of the Divine Marriage: A temple to the Divine Marriage of Apollo and Athena.
    Temple to Zeus Olympios: A temple to the supreme God of the Hellenes, Zeus Olympios.
    Temple of Artemis Amarysia: A temple and attached grove to the huntress Artemis.
    Naval Barracks: Where the city's rowers train.
    Hill of the Divine Marriage (Great Work): An artificial hill that looms above the city and holds its most important temples.
    Byssos Harbor: (Under Construction, done 359 OL).
    Treasury & Income
    Treasury in 355 OL: 311.1 Talents
    Income: 311.3 Talents
    Taxation: 191.0 Talents
    Commerce: 98.1 Talents
    League Income: 9.1 talents
    Tribute: 11.2 Talents
    Public Revenue: 2.0 Talents

    Expenses: 328.0 Talents
    Navy Upkeep: 78.9 Talents (New Ships)
    Army Upkeep: 44.0 Talents
    Construction: 110.0 Talents (Great Harbor of Byssos)
    Misc: 40.0 Talents (Grain Subsidy to Kymai, Expedition to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros)
    Salaries & Subsidies: 24.0 Talents (Registry of the Merchant Fleet)
    Sacred Treasury Contribution: 31.1 Talents (10% into Sacred Treasury)

    Sacred Treasury in 356 OL: 1566.5 Talents (+31.1 Talents per turn)
    Treasury in 356 OL: 294.4 Talents
    Manpower & Possible Levy

    Special Units

    500 Sacred Ekdromoi [Medium Hoplites]
    50 Kleos Exoria [Cavalry]

    Levy Pandemos: 14,286 (75% of all Adult Freemen minus men in special units and navy)
    4,094 Hoplites (19% of all Adult Freemen)
    675 Cavalry (3% of all Adult Freemen)
    9,516 Psilloi (53% of all Adult Freemen)
    Deployed Levy

    Standing Army (Eretria Eskhata)

    500 Sacred Ekdromoi (deployed at all times for 38.5 talents a turn)
    50 Kleos Exoria (deployed at all times for 5.5 talents a turn)

    None other deployed.
    Navy


    Trained Rowers: 3,300 Rowers
    Crew Complement: 150 per Trireme
    Crewed Triremes: 22 Triremes
    Reserve Triremes: 41 Triremes (4,1 Talent maintenance cost)
    Under Construction: 12 Triremes (done 356 OL)

    Deployed Triremes: 0 Triremes
    Inactive Triremes: 22 Triremes
    Inactive Rowers: 3,300 Rowers (74.8 talent professional pay)
    Trade

    Maritime Trade Capacity: 9/10 Trade Routes
    Tariff Efficiency: 53% Tariff Efficiency (Register of the Merchant Fleet)
    Commerce Revenue: 88.8 Talents

    2 Staple Trade Routes to Athenai (Grain)
    1 Staple Trade Route to South Italy (Anchovies & Wine)
    1 Staple Trade Route to Sicily (Olive Oil)
    1 Staple Trade Route to Rhizon, Southeast Illyria (Olive Oil)
    1 Staple Trade Route to Pharos, Central Illyria (Wine)
    1 Staple Trade Route to Atria, North Italy (Olive Oil)

    1 Luxury Trade Route to Athenai (Byssos Cloth)
    1 Luxury Trade Route to Atria, North Italy (Pottery)

    1 Land Staple Trade Route to Peukettia (Olive Oil)
    1 Land Staple Trade Route to Messapia (Metals)

    Subjects & Subject Levies

    Epulian League
    Core Members: Eretria Eskhata, Sipontion, Pylona, Garnae, Barletos, Monopolis, and Aufidenos
    Adriatic Members: Ankon, Issa, Pharos
    Tribute: 9.1 (10% of yearly income of each city)
    Adult Freemen: 6,059 Freemen
    Epulian League Levies: 1,026 Hoplites (Maximum Levy)
    Epulian League Triremes: 2 Triremes

    Peuketii Kingdom
    Ruler: King Gorgos (son of King Batavorta)
    Capital: Sannape
    Tribute: 9.2 Talents a turn
    Adult Freemen: 12,296 Freemen
    Levies: 2,664 Peuketii Skirmishers, 410 Peuketii Cavalry

    Other Subjects

    Subject: Egnatia
    Tribute: 1.2 Talents
    Adult Freemen: 1,498 Freemen
    Levies: 325 Egnatian Skirmishers, 50 Egnatian Cavalry

    Subject: Turai
    Tribute: 0.9 Talents
    Adult Freemen: 1,074 Freemen
    Levies: 233 Turai Skirmishers, 48 Turai Cavalry

    Subject: Messapii Confederacy
    Ruler: King Avarthios Artahias of Neriton
    Tribute: None
    Adult Freemen: 13,774 Freemen
    Levies: None
    Status: In Flux

    Alliances & Diplomacy


    Embassies: Taras, Metapontion, Thurii, Krotone, Rhegion.

    City of Thurii: Full alliance with the city of Thurii cultivated in opposition to potential ambitions by Taras or other Italiote powers.
    Freemen & Ships: 14,000 Freemen, 20 Triremes.

    City of Krotone: Full alliance with the city of Krotone cultivated in opposition to Syrakousai.
    Freemen & Ships: 10,000 Freemen, 10 Triremes.

    Sikeliote League: Full alliance with the Sikeliote League cultivated in opposition to the main power in South Sicily, Syrakousai.
    Freemen & Ships: 22,000 Men, 15 Triremes.

    Treaties

    Treaty of Phaidros: Signed in 348 OL. Enforces peace between signatories.
    Signatories: Thurii, Eretria Eskhata, Taras, Metapontion
    Duration: 20 Years (Expires 368 OL)

    Treaty of Eupraxis: Signed in 351 OL. Reconciles signatories, places permanent embasses in each city, and bars alliances with Mainland powers until end of Peloponnesian War.
    Signatories: Taras, Eretria Eskhata



    Diplomacy & its Critics

    The office of xenoparakletor had considerably evolved since its founding. Once a complete subordinate to the proboulos, the prestige and importance associated with the office as Eretria Eskhata became more involved in diplomacy abroad led to the growing view that the xenoparakletor was the true power in the city among the officials, whilst the proboulos' immense theoretical powers were curtailed by the suspicion and closeness of the assembly. Abroad, however, the xenoparakletor could prove his virtue and ability without ever being checked by the assembly, except in the confirmation of his general objectives and redoubling back home for follow-ups and clarification. The reform of Kallias which made the xenoparakletor entirely separate from, and on the equal level to, the proboulos ended any pretension that the two offices were linked, and a role reversal occurred where the xenoparakletor, not the proboulos, was the senior position. However, in recent years, this understanding has been strained. The weight of foreign diplomacy and growing danger across the Mediterranean, as well as the revival of real competition between factions in the city, has overloaded the xenoparakletor. Unable to respond capably to all issues at the same time, the xenoparakletor has also struggled with tasks he is not well-suited to, such as a man known as a virtuous Hellene being made to deal with barbaroi. In the presence of these issues, organic solutions have emerged, such as Obander's use of Mnemnon as his "barbarian whisperer", as he refers to the man affectionately.

    However, for many citizens this is not enough. Two competing amendments have emerged to attempt to address the issues formally. After all, some citizens have raised, the current ad hoc system relies on friendship rather than formal subordination, and that creates a situation where candidates may not work together in the future, putting faction about the city. Another problem is that candidates who lose do not get the opportunity to train their skills and develop better diplomtic acumen. At the same time, the demes have raised the issue that they feel that the current system citizens ask for, where three missions are chosen by each demos and one from the losing slates, is is not sustainable. Obander is an ox of a man, but even he is being worn out and weakened by his constant sea voyages, and even if he had deputies it would still be overwhelming.

    And so two different set of proposals have opened up. One set concerns the expansion of the office of xenoparakletor to include at least one deputy, while another deals with the overall flexibility or focus of the city's diplomacy across a single election term. For the former, two different reforms have emerged. One, spearheaded by Leander Long-Speaking, seeks to create a less factional foreign affairs by making it so that the two runner-up candidates to xenoparakletors become the deputies of the winner. In this system, for example, Korydon Morys and Mnemnon Keylonos would become deputies to Obander, and would be responsible for assisting him in his foreign missions and taking his orders. However, some are concerned both about the potential for rivalry and conflict in this system and the fact that this system deliberately forces those with disparate interests to work together. Leander countered this by saying that the system had precedence in the system of the strategoi, and if the city could work together in the critical area of warfare, why could it not do the same in diplomacy?

    As an alternative, Phokion Aristeides has proposed a different system, in which the xenoparakletor picks a deputy of their own choice. However, the popular tribunal suggested, and the idea was included in the final amendment, that the candidate be subject to their review as they would become a public magistrate. This would be to ensure that the candidate had the basic qualifications for the office, disallowing the xenoparakletor from simply picking their nephew and giving them a cushy position. This also has the advantage of deepening the pool of candidates in each demos, as a deputy would almost certainly rather be drawn from that demos than from another unless there was a power-sharing arrangement. Less cumbersome and expansive than Leander's proposal, Phokion's had the problem of not allowing all three factions access to foreign affairs, and of course would likely privilege an individual demos over gaining something for all three. However, it also lessened the potential for conflict between the xenoparakletor and his deputies in the course of his duties.

    Finally, there were those, like Skantarios the Hoplite, who felt that a reform itself was unnecessary. On this matter the demoi have been silent, for none want to intervene too much into a motion of the assembly, lest they be seen as furthering their own interests. However, there is a feeling among some citizens that this tinkering with the office of xenoparakletor could instead sabotage it, by either putting xenoparakletors in conflict or restricting the ability of the xenoparakletor to choose who he wishes in every situation. Such advocates are flexibility have been countered by those among the reformers who argue that the xenoparakletor will still be flexible; they will merely have assistance to act as they wish.

    And of course, on the matter of the city having either a flexible or focused set of diplomatic actions, there was a great deal of argument and division. Many citizens, suspicious of the proposal put forward by Obander, were responded to by saying that each demos would, in the future, try to ensure that it had policies that matched the others if the crisis was truly important and that they would work together to craft missions in areas where a response was critical. They cited the example of the Dauni; if Ausculos were to, for example, invade across the Aufidus or attack the Epulian cities, the Demoi would of course come together to find a common strategy, or at least approaches to fighting the Dauni that reflected their own views but still addressed the crisis. However, those against this proposal said it would be better for the demoi to remain specialized and for the citizens to choose an additional specialized mission from among the losing slates, as it would allow the city to flexibly respond to a wide range of issues. The general leaning was for the latter system, but the course of debate could sway this one way or another.

    -Elect two new positions, the Junior Xenoparkletors, who aid the Senior Xenoparkletor, the winner of our general election.
    -Junior Xenoparkletors are the second and third most supported candidates during the General Xenoparkletor election (realistically, they would be the candidates of the other two demes, but this is not privileged in law)

    Reasons for this are:

    1. Formalize replacements for Xenoparkletors in case they are ever incapacitated/killed. Also prevents deputation under the Xenoparkletor from being a pure nepotism/patronage bribe.
    2. Build the skills of non-elected candidates so that the general quality of our diplomats improve.
    3. Force the Xenoparkletor to be more accountable by having their actions watched. This also makes the other two demes more accountable because the Senior Xenoparkletor will watch the in turn to see if they subvert the city's diplomacy.
    4. Create a more consistent international presence for our diplomats. Instead of one-and-done elections where a foreign state may never see any particular Xenoparkletor again, the entire group will be constantly building up relationships across the Mediterranean.
    5. Increase our reach, if needed due to pressing concerns. More Xenoparkletors means we can hold more parallel, in-depth negotiations instead of having to race around and do multiple things at once.
    6. Forcefully diversify viewpoints. Groupthink is dangerously highly considering the conformity of a Greek poleis so having what few diverging viewpoints we have forced to work together will mean a greater chance of not making stupid oversights.

    I think the easiest and most elegant route to go is to revive the position of Deputy Xenoparakletor, which might even still technically exist but has just been unfilled for decades. Have the Xenoparakletor appoint whoever they like in the position, with the caveat that they are responsible for and will be judged on their deputy's performance. So we discourage any effort to sabotage a rival, and instead create an understanding the post will either be used to give a promising member of the deme that holds the office a position of some importance and independence but not too much independence so they can gather experience and prominence, or that Xenoparakletors will reach across to other demoi to appoint one of their candidates as a measure of alliance or to enhance the success of their own term.


    Should the office of Xenoparakletor be reformed by the addition of official deputies, and if so, how should the deputies be chosen?

    [] [Motion] Leander's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have two deputies explicitly subordinate to them drawn from the two losing candidates.
    [] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
    [] [Motion] Status Quo. The Xenoparakletor will choose whoever they wish to accompany them on foreign missions.

    Should Eretria prioritize a more focused strategy in its diplomatic missions or pursue a more flexible approach to foreign affairs?

    [] [Missions] Focused diplomacy prioritizing a clear direction and coherent strategy over flexibility [3 missions from winning Demos per term].
    [] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].

    A Choice of Prophecy

    When Obander arrived again in Kymai, he found a city taken over by women. After a messenger from Eretria had delivered the assembly's decision to Kymai in the fall that Eretria would allow them to stay out of the Linean Laws, the spirit of the people of Kymai rose immeasurably. The widows of Kymai, who had been among the most important factors in the city's refusal to fall and put much of their fortunes and remaining wealth into the defense of Kymai, had staged a kind of general revolt against the men. Not only did they refuse to marry again, and received solidarity from wives who refused to allow their husbands into their beds, but they armed themselves and wore amazonian headdresses. This greatly disturbed Obander, who was an arch-traditionalist on the subject of women and was unhappy to see them walking the streets with weaponry. The men were not, either, but knew that the women were among the greatest defenders of the city, guarding the walls, assisting in the repair of any potential holes, the sealing of tunnels or passageways, and the provision of food and supplies to male defenders. So when the women of Kymai, hearing of Eretria's leniency, saw that many men were still reluctant, they cowed their husbands into submission (+500 Kymaian freemen).

    This state of affairs was of course mostly temporarily. Once many of the city's foremost men accepted that Kymai was to fall, they demanded in turn that the women of Kymai disarm themselves and cease gallivanting so proudly through the streets, and the women did so with great gusto. Obander, having observed all of this, merely scratched his beard and sighed, realizing that the citizens of Kymai had gone mad. Nevertheless, they had to be dealt with regardless, and so he asked once more if there was anyone among them who could speak for their interests. Now, however, a few stepped forward, including the young Nikolaos, who had gained more prominence for his advocacy of the evacuation from Kymai and was known as a charismatic speaker. He and Obander discussed the issues facing the city, and he apologized for the city's behavior the previous year. He explained that many of the citizens were now accepting of their lot, and knew they could trust Eretria, as Obander had returned once more, and when ships from Rhegion had came they were there to sign a treaty of peace and to sail away with the city's eldest and youngest, who would be cared for in Rhegion. That such trust could exist between rivals was more a matter of expediency; Rhegion wished for the Kymaians to depart as soon as possible, and Eretria guaranteed that Rhegion would not turn away from its obligations, and so the two cities were willing to work together.

    Two new issues cropped up to Obander on his stay in Kymai this time, however. Although the plans for the evacuation were going well, there was a major hitch in the form of the supporters of the old oligarchy that had been overthrown a number of years ago. Many of them were some of the wealthiest and most powerful citizens in Kymai, and they now approached Obander to allow them to go to the new colony in the Adriatic. Nikolaos advised Obander against this, as he was a democrat and relatively poor besides, and said that the oligarchs when they had ruled were cruel to the people and would surely attempt to take advantage of the new colony when they arrived. The oligarchic supporters, led by one Imbros, suggested instead that Nikolaos was not willing to let old fights die, and that the supporters wished to enrich the city and ensure its prosperity. He reminded Obander that Eretria had not expelled its aristocracy when the city landed in Italia, and in fact was very fair to them. Obander responded very frankly, and perhaps too bluntly, that the aristocrats who had come were very close to being wiped out on several occassions. This lack of tact betrayed Obander's own sympathies, but still be promised to bring Imbros' case to the ekklesia and see if they should allow him and many of the wealthy landowners to come to Kymai. Cynically, doing so might destabilize the city and leave it requiring Eretria's support.

    Obander was about to leave the city when he received a message from a priestess clad all in black, advising him that the Sibyl of Kymai wished to speak to him. The Sybil of Kymai, in the temple of Apollon in Kymai, was the most famed oracle in all of Italia and Sikelia. She was known as far as Latin Roma, where it is said that the former kings of that land would seek out her aid, and even Oscan chiefs would seek her out. He went into the temple with the oracle, and left with a look of awe. He spoke to no one about what he saw, but remarked only that the oracle was truly a powerful one, and was blessed by Apollon. But he also left elated, and when he went to Eretria, he immediately met with the Grand Mantis, who called an emergency meeting of the ekklesia.

    The oracle had seen a prophecy about the future in her secret tablets. There was a single tablet shattered in two, containing two versions of the future which had not yet come to pass; a point where the cords of fates went in two directions. One half described a city which was destined to become great, and become known across the world. It was a city that had a tree of stone in its center, situated in a grove of trees. This was interpreted by the Grand Mantis to be Eretria. The Sibyl had come to the grove, and lived there for the rest of her life, and the tablet would merge once more, and from it would grow a cult not of Apollon but Apollon and Athene. In the second half of the tablet, the tablet described a city that had not yet been born, but would rise to power on the waves. It was a city that had a sapling of wood growing among an ancient forest on a rocky shore, and this was interpreted as the harbour of the Daorsi. The Sibyl had come to the harbour, and brought Apollon and Athene with her, and with it, a powerful new cult which would spread across the Adriatic.

    But what tablet was the correct one? The Sibyl advised the people of Eretria that it is theirs to choose. They must choose between the Tree of Stone and the Sapling of Wood, and they must choose whether the Sibyl will arrive in Eretria or in Kymai. If she arrives in Eretria, it will greatly enhance the city, but make unhappy many Kymaians who will see their famous sibyl abandon them. But if she departs to the new colony, it will invigorate it with spiritual power, and bring many of the remaining citizens of Kymai with her to it, as well as making them worship not just Apollon, but Apollon and Athene. How is it that she came to see Apollon and Athene as together? Few know, though some say that Obander Eupraxis wise as he was, convinced her of their power and their marriage, and recounted it to her so beautifully that she wept, for she was a sibyl and could not experience such love herself, but was doomed to relay only prophecy. Eupraxis, for his part, refused to speak of it, and said the matter was of a sacred nature, but that he had great respect for the Sibyl, and was happy to have seen her before he died, and said that any claim that she would weep was a profound denigration of her role as priestess. The arch-traditionalist, it seemed, was willing to give in matters of religion to alternative roles for women.

    Current potential freemen to be evacuated from Kymai: 3,200 out of 5,500

    Should Eretria allow the supporters of Kymai's overthrown oligarchy, many of them wealthy and prosperous, to journey to the new city?

    [] [Oligarchs] We cannot allow the oligarchy's supporters to make the journey [Oligarchic supporters will depart to Sikeliote League].
    [] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].

    Where should Obander Eupraxis advise the Sibyl of Kymai to go to? To the Tree of Stone or the Sapling of Wood?

    [] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
    [] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].

    In the Land of Cliffs and Forests

    The Daorsi were shockingly welcoming to many of the Eretrians. When Obander and Mnemnon arrived, with a merchant who could speak the language of the Daorsi, they expected much resistance. But when he came to Daorson, the local chiefs were amazed to find Greeks among them, and called a general assembly of the chiefs (2d10+2=19). The Daorsi explained to the interpreter that they were a people who were peaceful and threatened by their neighbors, but they were also shepherds. They did not wish to fight with Hellenes, but instead provide them with land so that they could settle the coast and trade with them. Though extremely welcoming, this reaction was not without precedent; early in the history of the Hellene colonies in the west, Greeks were often welcomed by the locals, who granted them lands, only to regret it later. When some Daorsi chiefs questioned Mnemnon, they were pleased by his demeanor and jokes, which transcended barriers of language, as when he wrestled one of their chiefs to the ground in a bout of brawling, his most common form of diplomatic greeting.

    It was a strange response to have after the disaster of the Histri, but in a sense it was only logical. The Daorsi, unlike the Histri, had little to fear from the coast, and also unlike the Dalmatae were still a mostly isolationist and quiet people. They had not yet organized into great chiefdoms, or grown the wealth to compete over the flow of silver, and they mostly had small flocks of sheep or quiet fishing villages. Those who were still afraid were convinced by the Eretrian explanation that there would be no mass colonization; once the initial colonists had come, the cities would grow slowly, and wished only to have the coast. The Daorsi, willing as they were to trade with Eretria, said they would grant the city a considerable parcel, and when they had outdone their original parcel, they would provide them with another. The Daorsi women, who were interested in Eretrian wares, provided them with a painted rock upon hearing of that custom, and gained in turn a package of jewelery and pottery which delighted them.

    Mnemnon was even caught flirting with one of the younger men among the Daorsi, and was promptly pulled back from a potential collision course with the man's wife, herself a chieftain's daughter by Obander, who warned Mnemnon that this was not elysium. The Daorsi still warred and fought, and although peaceful their lives were not idyllic. They were people, and should be respected, not sought out as images of alien virtue in the midst of nature. Mnemnon, embarassed, agreed, and swore never to be adulterous with anyone but his two Eretrian lovers. Obander sighed and said he wished Mnemnon was Pygmalion, so that the only thing he loved was stone. Mnemnon responded that the only one who likes stone in such a way is Obander, and Obander resented the accusation, riposting that he loved trees of fig more than stone, which only muddled the matter further. The two agreed to leave it at that.

    With the land secured so simply, it seemed that journeying to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros would be simple matters. Unfortunately, they were not. Although both towns were excited to greet the Eretrians, and were interested in the proposal of the Epulian League, they were also in a difficult time. The situation in Kerkyra was far more dire than had been previously transmitted. The city, which had once been an equal ally of Athenai, had been reduced to a tributary. Much of its fleet had been dismantled, and Erasmos Dion had appropriated much of its treasury for Athenai. Kerkyra had lost as much as half its population, and so trade had dwindled. Epidauros, more reliant on Korinthos, had been similarily hard-hit. The Athenians had been attacking Korinthian shipping for years, and with full control of the Adriatic approaches on the Epirote coast, they were deliberately attacking any ship which seemed bound for Korinthos in wanton acts of piracy. Still, both were proud, and the recession had made their populations bitter.

    Discussions with Eupraxis went reasonably well (2d10+4=15), but there was still much reluctance. Two issues stood out for the cities. They were willing to join the Epulian League as full members, but they had two requests. The first was that they be allowed to swear the oath of the Epulian League on Zeus Olympios, not the Divine Marriage. This angered Obander at first, but he realized that he was standing among Hellenes who were barely familiar with the Divine Marriage, and did not even acknowledge it. However, to do so would surely muddle the oath and weaken its power, as it was partly a matter of cultural commonality. If they were forced to take the oath, they may still do so, but it would trouble relations with the two cities who felt like strangers in the midst of the Epulians.

    The second request was more straightforward. Both cities had been in the region for a long time, and were willing to join Eretria without further questions, but they wanted a recompense for the tribute and obligations thrust on them. They asked to be granted new lands that would help them grow and recover from the economic decline, so they might become more important ports in their own right, and not just decline into nothingness in the face of Epulian colonies. Of course, if the island requested by Epidauros was instead given to Kymai, it would further encourage Kymaians to arrive, and if the Melaina Kerkyrans were not given the rest of their island in the Adriatic Dodecanese the western harbour could serve as the spot for a fine new colony. Still, it might be a useful way to ingratiate the two and establish them as counterweights to the new Kymai in the region.

    The matter was left to the assembly, in a peaceful year for Eretria which saw many breakthroughs. Indeed, this was a happy time, and many citizens were relieved and pleased that the weight of prior years had dissolved into a lighter set of choices that had only benefits for the city. It would likely be only a light reprieve, as an expedition to the Messapii and Athenai next year, or moves by the Korinthians with the war in Hellas winding down, could disturb this fragile peace, but it was at least something they could count on for the moment.

    Should Eretria force Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros to swear oaths to the Divine Marriage despite their hesitation to accept a union unknown to them?

    [] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
    [] [Oaths] Allow them to swear oaths to Zeus Olympios instead [Cities will be happy but Epulian League Oath will be muddled].

    Should Eretria grant Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros additional lands to gain their loyalty and allow them to expand, albeit at the expense of Nea Kymai or other potential Epulian colonies?

    [] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
    [] [Lands] We will keep the land to allot to Kymai and other new colonies [+250 more Kymaians will move to Nea Kymai, Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra will remain stagnant but the land will be open for other new colonies].



    Note: This map is for geographic reference and does not reflect border changes between 353 OL-357 OL. The map is updated every four turns, so the next update is 357 OL (419 BCE).

    When voting, please copy out vote text in its entirety in order to preserve the coherency of the vote. That includes the word with the vote brackets. No plan votes.

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  • Threadmarks
    • Well, the land requests from Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros seem acceptable. Making them swear Oaths upon the Divine Marriage but giving them the land feels like a fair exchange.

    Hrm, the Oracle. I assume the benefits of more cultural influence and an oracle would be pretty hefty. On the other hand, I thought we were running into issues with immediately available money, and that's a thousand more Freemen for Nea Kymai (plus an additional center for spreading the Divine Marriage right next to our new Epulian League members) if she goes with them.

    My thoughts on the Oligarchs are that I'd rather have Nea Kymai stable and without risk of falling back to Oligarchy. They can go to Sicily, and (unlikely as it is) I hope they stumble across a band of Sicel guerillas.
     
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    Giving that large island off the coast of Nea Kymai to Epidauros will surely invite tensions between them down the line. I would rather give that territory to the polity that will dominate that region regardless of what we choose here.
     
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    Chimeraguard said:
    Well, the land requests from Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros seem acceptable. Making them swear Oaths upon the Divine Marriage but giving them the land seems like a fair exchange.

    Hrm, the Oracle. I assume the benefits of more cultural influence and an oracle would be pretty hefty. On the other hand, I thought we were running into issues with immediately available money, and that's a thousand more Freemen for Nea-Kymai (plus an additional center for spreading the Divine Marriage right next to our new Epulian League members) if she goes with them.
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    See, I think there's a point where that becomes a negative. If we trying to insist the Epulian league be united by the Divine Marriage, and we aren't the cultural center of the Divine Marriage anymore it undermines our authority rather than legitimizes it.

    We potentially surrender being the cultural center of the league in exchange for what? Some coins right now and empowering the only other Epulian League looks that can claim greater authority than Eretria in some matters? If Nea Kymai can undermine us across the league and at home with the Sybil then it's not longer an asset in their hands but an instrument suited to be wielded against our agendas.
     
    [X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
    [X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
    [X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
    [X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
    [X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
    [X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
     
    Chimeraguard said:
    Hrm, the Oracle. I assume the benefits of more cultural influence and an oracle would be pretty hefty. On the other hand, I thought we were running into issues with immediately available money, and that's a thousand more Freemen for Nea Kymai (plus an additional center for spreading the Divine Marriage right next to our new Epulian League members) if she goes with them.
    Click to expand...
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    While we may be running a deficit this year, with the construction of the Byssos Harbor adding an additional 5 trade routes for us to potentially use, I think that we can afford to purchase the Oracle.

    This is a once in lifetime opportunity, we cannot just go out and purchase Oracles and cultural influence. Some of our greater projects like the Temples we've built cost more than that, so in comparison, the lasting impact of gaining a famed Oracle, one famed across our entire region, is worth way more than 70 talents, a steal really.

    The one thousand freemen doesn't really interest me too much as a bonus as we've already been plenty generous with the Kymaians. Furthermore if we actually wish for the Epulian League to still be defined by us, creating another center for our culture, one which may grow distant from us in the future and compete with us, that sounds like a bad idea, especially when Eretrian culture is mostly known for being odd with its shipping tendencies.
     
    By the same token, of course, decoupling a cult from a specific city will allow it to spread more widely and easily.
     
    Cetashwayo said:
    However, I would also advise that citizens avoid the work camps during the summer months, as it has been reported that there are outbreaks of disease among the workmen due to what I am told by our esteemed physicians is an outbreak of blood imbalance brought upon by the heat.
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    Oh, joy. Let's hope/pray this doesn't cascade into something worse.
     
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    Chimeraguard said:
    My thoughts on the Oligarchs are that I'd rather have Nea Kymai stable and without risk of falling back to Oligarchy. They can go to Sicily, and (unlikely as it is) I hope they stumble across a band of Sicel guerillas.
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    I think thats a bit shortsighted. The Oligarchs can cause political strife, but as our own experience proves their experience in matters of commerce and governance will be useful to a new City. 400 Citizens that bring a lot of wealth with them is a huge shot in the arm for the New Kymai.

    Besides, if we take the Sybil with us and thus gain incredibly potent cultural influence, we would be in a position to loom over the Kymaian Nobles not just militarily, but also culturally. If they do coup their city and install an oligarcy, we sack the place and put the oligarchs to the sword, but if they dont, and they arent likely to with us breathing on them their existence would be a net benefit for New Kymai.
     
    Cetashwayo said:
    By the same token, of course, decoupling a cult from a specific city will allow it to spread more widely and easily.
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    Don't you trust Eretria's famed and boundless artists and muses to help spread our culture well enough?:lol

    You don't have to answer that by the way...
    Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 8, 2019 at 4:06 AM, finished with 6342 posts and 62 votes.
    Click to expand...
     
    I think it a more lasting and important victory to spread the cult of the Divine Marriage further still; and in particular anchoring another major site of the Marriage in Nea Kymai on the other side of the Adriatic provides an avenue for it to spread into Epirus and the tribal Greeks, and from there even into Makedon and northern Hellas. At the very least we can probably anticipate that Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra would rapidly pick up the Divine Marriage from Nea Kymai and this help solidify the entire Adriatic including future colonies in a broader cultural union based on it.
     
    [X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
    [X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
    [X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
    [X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
    [X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
     
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