- Location
- Luton Airport
@Cetashwayo where do we currently stand on the status of citizen/non-citizen marriages?
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah.
The real reason to have a moat, IMO, is so that the enemy can't roll up battering rams and siege towers directly to your wall, and also so that if the enemy tries to undermine your wall with a tunnel and miscalculates they get a hilarious surprise and possibly some fresh fish.
Nobody we're going to be fighting for the foreseeable future has the kind of siegecraft for which that would help. As far as I know the art of such war engines and techniques was lost with the fall of the Assyrians.
- Location
- Texas
This must have been how the Romans felt, when they realized the path to dominance over Carthage, the sea — and, consequently, the western world — lay through the rebellious Italian tribes they had so long suffered to live.
Hey wait did I just compare us to a violently expansionist empire that completely wiped multiple civilizations and peoples from the historical record, destroying their cultures and histories as it swelled and grew to terrible size, fueled by an ever-growing lower class of oppressed peoples crushed inexorably under the twin wheels of oligarchy and empire?
...are we the baddies?
- Location
- USA
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant.
[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
There aren't really a lot of goodies in the classical Mediterranean.This must have been how the Romans felt, when they realized the path to dominance over Carthage, the sea — and, consequently, the western world — lay through the rebellious Italian tribes they had so long suffered to live.
Hey wait did I just compare us to a violently expansionist empire that completely wiped multiple civilizations and peoples from the historical record, destroying their cultures and histories as it swelled and grew to terrible size, fueled by an ever-growing lower class of oppressed peoples crushed inexorably under the twin wheels of oligarchy and empire?
...are we the baddies?
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
OOC: Forgive me for inflicting this upon you, I'm not a very good writer and know very little of ancient Greek history.
IC: It is said among the people of Eretria that Timanthes, son of Thymotes, was not born, but carved from stone, a comparison owed to his Laconic mien. Even in the assembly he speaks little, and only then to voice his agreement or disagreement.
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
When the subject of the Metic's grievances is brought up, however, Timanthes stands upon the intricately carved stone of his family, assisted by his sons: stalwart Thymotes and handsome Theras, and speaks. "To have given the Metics a voice was a grave mistake. To listen to it, an even greater one."
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] The assembly should be called and grievances accepted only when the assembly decides.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] Metic heroes should be celebrated by having their burdens and restrictions lifted, not a reward of citizenship.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
OOC: As you can see, Timanthes isn't a big fan of metic rights. His sons... do not necessarily agree with him, though they keep their dissent in private.
IC: It is said among the people of Eretria that Timanthes, son of Thymotes, was not born, but carved from stone, a comparison owed to his Laconic mien. Even in the assembly he speaks little, and only then to voice his agreement or disagreement.
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
When the subject of the Metic's grievances is brought up, however, Timanthes stands upon the intricately carved stone of his family, assisted by his sons: stalwart Thymotes and handsome Theras, and speaks. "To have given the Metics a voice was a grave mistake. To listen to it, an even greater one."
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] The assembly should be called and grievances accepted only when the assembly decides.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] Metic heroes should be celebrated by having their burdens and restrictions lifted, not a reward of citizenship.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
OOC: As you can see, Timanthes isn't a big fan of metic rights. His sons... do not necessarily agree with him, though they keep their dissent in private.
@Cetashwayo has King Arpus of the Dauni confederation died of old age yet?
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
@Cetashwayo, a question regarding Dry Dung Fuel.
Has dry dung fuel ever been a significant part of the economy of the Ancient Europe? Can Eretria start to...uh...actually start to play a role in it, seeing as we are starting to get the neighboring Messapii tribes to drive their cows towards Eretria's market? Or is dry dung fuel mostly for internal village usage and practically every tribe in Europe would say no if someone offers to buy their stocks of dry animal dung fuel because of...strategic reasons?
Has dry dung fuel ever been a significant part of the economy of the Ancient Europe? Can Eretria start to...uh...actually start to play a role in it, seeing as we are starting to get the neighboring Messapii tribes to drive their cows towards Eretria's market? Or is dry dung fuel mostly for internal village usage and practically every tribe in Europe would say no if someone offers to buy their stocks of dry animal dung fuel because of...strategic reasons?
- Location
- United Kingdom
I feel that in focusing on each reform as an individual issue, people are missing the real risk in this situation. It's not that any single one of these reforms will cause mass unrest, although I think some will cause more annoyance than others, but they're all individually manageable. So in that respect you're absolutely right, even if we voted for every reform it's not going to be an immediate catastrophe. Rather there are, in my opinion, two dangers we need to be aware of here which are mostly brought about by the fact people seem to be looking at this as an event rather than a process. Both of these potential problems stem from granting too many reforms in a single instance.
The first comes from the citizens. Will there be mass revolts if Metics are given greater marriage rights? No, but will some people care? Yes. Neither will there be riots in the street if Metics are granted the opportunity to become citizens, but will the more traditionalist elements be unhappy about it? Yes, of course.
And this is the first risk; that so many reforms are granted at once that enough different segments of the citizenry are annoyed by different reforms that it has a noticeable effect on the citizenry as a whole. Now I'm not saying there will be a revolt or anything quite so serious, but public opinion is something we need to be wary of if this is going to be more than a one-off (and it needs to be).
And this is where I come back to my 'event vs process' comment. Satisfying the Metics and integrating them more deeply into Eretria isn't something that will be done through agreeing to one set of demands, it's going to be an ongoing process over the course of... I've no idea how many years. I'm not advocating, by the way, that some of these reforms should be refused and never granted. It's just that it seems to me to be critically important that the Metic Situation is managed properly and these reforms are passed in a controlled fashion so that both Metics and Citizens are happy and accepting of both the situation and each other.
They need to be done quickly enough that the Metics are satisfied, but not so quickly it causes significant unhappiness amongst the citizens (some unhappiness is unavoidable). The very last thing we want to do is pass reforms so quickly that it makes the Metics happy but causes ill will towards them from the citizens and divides our society. Because that simply leads to a different, equally serious, problem.
We also need to consider how passing these reforms might affect attempts to pass more in the future. If we pass too many now will citizens be less willing to give more in the future? I can happily admit I'm not sure, but it seems plausible. Is it worth passing one less now so we can safely pass an additional two in 8 years?
The second potential problem comes from the Metics themselves. In granting them 4 of their 5 requested reforms I'm worried we're allowing their expectations to be set at a level that's not sustainable.
In 8 years they're going to come with another set of requests, and because it's human nature, they'll expect a similar response to what they get this time. What's happened before is what people expect to happen in the future. And if they don't get it they'll be unhappy, because again, human nature. Moreover, it's not like their requests will ever end. They're a political constituency who will, rightly, always advocate for their own benefit and eventually it will reach the point that we have to reject them or risk civil unrest amongst the citizens. After all, there's only so much they will tolerate. In all honesty, I think that this scenario (granting reforms then being forced to suddenly not) would be more likely to lead to a charismatic Metic rising up than by granting a lesser number each time they make requests and spreading them over a longer period of time.
These two different constituencies (and in truth, it's more than two) need to be managed properly if Eretria is to be a stable and unified society.
Now, even if we grant four reforms here it's not the end of the world, it's not going to lead to the bus exploding. We just need to carefully balance them with policies the Citizens approve of and make sure that we taper off the refusal of Metic requests instead of granting lots of reforms, lots of reforms, then realising we have a problem and granting none. And honestly, even if we make the mistake of doing that the situation is probably still salvageable, but that doesn't make it a desirable situation to put ourselves in.
As @Cetashwayo said, if we had voted for the Antipatrid's to have been in charge for the last 34 years 'many of the privileges available here would have been available to them'. Many, not all (though potentially others?), and probably implemented over a 34 year period, not all at once. Although @Cetashwayo please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Societal reform is always something that always has to be done carefully, and I just hope people are thinking about the entire process instead of just this singular vote.
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
I'd imagine it's important but also fairly plentiful my granddad had a horse when I was growing up and there is a literal hill of manure in the field he owns which is left to break down then used for gardening it.
Sure that built up over almost 2 decades but it was just one horse, big herbivores produce a lot of dung.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
I see.
If we can start a...a TREND where dry dung fuel becomes more important in the economy...if we can make sure that its important enough to be an important source of money and fuel into the 20th century AD or that its traditional or not something the Renaissance folks would consider unGreek but is very logical too...we did it in this quest!
We managed to alleviate global warming!
@Hasty Gaming
We're refusing their most major request, and the most incendiary one. These are also grievances from the past thirty five years, I don't think it's likely they'll have another thirty five years of grievances in the next eight. The end-state here as @Cetashwayo said is to create more of a "plebian" status than a status of foreigners living in our lands, and this does that. If we're worrying about civil strife, a resentful Metic population is far more of a threat than a minority of our citizens feeling we were vaguely too generous. They are more than half the population, and they are all armed.
Now, that isn't actually a huge worry as far as I'm concerned either; my point is that if we are overreacting to minor risks here, we may not even be overreacting in the right direction. Of course there are perfectly valid narrative or other reasons why you might want to vote one way or another on any of the options, and I respect everyone's choices on that basis. If you want a more gradual pace of social change, that's fine. If you want there to be some kind of incendiary incident where a Metic is wrongly treated by a Citizen jury, triggering a crisis, because that would be really gripping, that's awesome. If you want a more deliberately unequal society because you find it more interesting as a scenario, or are really prioritizing Citizen opinion, that's cool.
But can we just like... lower the stakes here a bit? The bus really isn't going to explode. I promise you. It isn't.
It is also a mistake, I think, to assume we get to pick and choose options, at our leisure, at whatever time most convenient to us. We probably do not; events and the narrative play a larger role in determining the choices available to us. Simon Jester's reason for voting for example, which I think is a perfectly valid one, is that he thinks the single court system was a mistake and would prefer to change to a dual court system. Fair enough! But it will probably take a crisis or a major controversy to trigger a major reversal like that, at this point. We don't get to have our cake, and eat it too.
So in summary, pick the options you like.
We're refusing their most major request, and the most incendiary one. These are also grievances from the past thirty five years, I don't think it's likely they'll have another thirty five years of grievances in the next eight. The end-state here as @Cetashwayo said is to create more of a "plebian" status than a status of foreigners living in our lands, and this does that. If we're worrying about civil strife, a resentful Metic population is far more of a threat than a minority of our citizens feeling we were vaguely too generous. They are more than half the population, and they are all armed.
Now, that isn't actually a huge worry as far as I'm concerned either; my point is that if we are overreacting to minor risks here, we may not even be overreacting in the right direction. Of course there are perfectly valid narrative or other reasons why you might want to vote one way or another on any of the options, and I respect everyone's choices on that basis. If you want a more gradual pace of social change, that's fine. If you want there to be some kind of incendiary incident where a Metic is wrongly treated by a Citizen jury, triggering a crisis, because that would be really gripping, that's awesome. If you want a more deliberately unequal society because you find it more interesting as a scenario, or are really prioritizing Citizen opinion, that's cool.
But can we just like... lower the stakes here a bit? The bus really isn't going to explode. I promise you. It isn't.
It is also a mistake, I think, to assume we get to pick and choose options, at our leisure, at whatever time most convenient to us. We probably do not; events and the narrative play a larger role in determining the choices available to us. Simon Jester's reason for voting for example, which I think is a perfectly valid one, is that he thinks the single court system was a mistake and would prefer to change to a dual court system. Fair enough! But it will probably take a crisis or a major controversy to trigger a major reversal like that, at this point. We don't get to have our cake, and eat it too.
So in summary, pick the options you like.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
To be perfectly fair, the Italic tribes were part of a migration, and probably killed or destroyed the cultures of the people who were here before they showed up. And their predecessors probably did likewise to the people who were here before THEY showed up. And if you keep going back far enough you get to the tribal groups who migrated into the Neanderthals and fucked them out of existence. And before then...This must have been how the Romans felt, when they realized the path to dominance over Carthage, the sea — and, consequently, the western world — lay through the rebellious Italian tribes they had so long suffered to live.
Hey wait did I just compare us to a violently expansionist empire that completely wiped multiple civilizations and peoples from the historical record, destroying their cultures and histories as it swelled and grew to terrible size, fueled by an ever-growing lower class of oppressed peoples crushed inexorably under the twin wheels of oligarchy and empire?
...are we the baddies?
And then...
And then...
Ahah!
And then a-long came John...
Big tall John
Long legged John
Slow walk'n John
Slow talk'n John
And before John the guys who had first dibs were either whatever apes lived here before us, or wolves.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I don't think the Romans ever thought so strategically until the empire
Citizenship requires both parents to be citizens, and so citizen-metic marriages are very rare as they're a loss of status for the child.
Yes. His son Ausculos is king.
Dry dung fuel is far more popular in areas where trees are less common. The most common fuel used in Eretria, as with all of the ancient Greeks, is charcoal.
- Location
- United Kingdom
I'm not sure that's the case actually, in the update it says...
Which I take to mean - perhaps wrongly, and maybe @Cetashwayo can clarify for us how often they've been 'called' - that although the Metic's hasn't been the focus for these last 34 years they've still been given opportunities to air their grievances (I'm not sure it would even be possible to ignore them for 34 years!) just not with the regularity or structure they would like.
Agreed, that's definitely the end we want. Or at least it's the majority seem to want, I'm just not personally convinced that acceding to so many of their demands at once is the best way to achieve a harmonious society. A resentful metic population is certainly to be avoided, but I think the greater risk comes from managing the entire situation badly, rather than denying them reforms now.
There's definitely a risk of us reacting to the wrong threat. It's impossible for us to be sure what reforms will cause discontent, or if giving too many now will make further reforms harder, or if giving too few now will lead to metic unrest, or god knows what. We can only speculate and try and handle things as best we can.
The bus won't explode. Like I said, even if we fuck this up there no doubt we can still salvage it. But it's worth trying to avoid that being necessary, better to just have it go well the first time around.
- Location
- Luton Airport
Bah, giving that Athenian Pericles ideas!
On Eretria's Metics & Political Culture
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It's been all over the place. The Metic assembly was formed during the timeskip so it's not very old; sometimes it would be called once every year in quick succession to settle some new issue, and other times they've not been called for ages. The main reason for this inconsistency is the uncertain status, fear of metic revolt, and deep controversy around extending additional status to metics; for example, metics in Eretria were granted an assembly and given the ability to settle without having a citizen sponsor. In Athenai, not having a citizen sponsor could result in a Metic being tortured. In Eretria this was considered unacceptable not so much because Eretria is a very nice state but because Metics make up more than half the city's labor force and tax base and any such incident is just as liable as to lead to the city's destruction as it is to justice for Metics.
In general, the political factions of Eretria are acutely aware that the city's pre-eminent regional hegemony effectively requires a stable position; it sits on too many barbaroi, and has too many enemies, to afford anything less, and so that has more or less maintained political peace and allowed many concessions if in exchange Metics give far more loyalty and involvement to Eretria than Metics are expected to in any other place in the Greek World. In fact, Eretrian Metics are doubly peculiar because there's evidence that many of Athenai's metics are actually freed slaves, not foreigners, but in Eretria Metics tend to be immigrants, creating a situation where Eretria Eskhata is a true colonial state dependent on immigration in order to shore itself up, which is completely unique in the Greek World.
The general process among Western Greeks was that citizenship was granted at point of founding, and afterwards foreigners were either disallowed to settle or having very restricted rights. The martial strength of a city would be dependent on the colony's starting population, its natural advantages such as good harbors or rich land, and its lack of major enemies. In the archaic era I think it's very likely there was a lot of immigration leading to citizenship, because citizenship was more malleable in those murky days, but now we are reaching an era where most cities are dependent on their natural growth, with isolated counter-points like Dionysius' Sicily which attracted 60,000 new Greeks west. But a single polis to do so? Unheard of.
The advantage of this is obvious enough to Eretrians, who approve of it on principle, which is why there is no deme in Eretria which rejects the idea of Metic immigration despite the fact that in many Greek poleis foreigners would have to leave on pain of death. However, there are significant arguments as to what rights these immigrants ought to have and where to draw the line, and indeed, to preserve the bounds of citizen and non-citizen not just as a matter of status but as an exalted and sacred body composed of those who fought to found the city. Entrance into citizenship for Metics would be portrayed by those who support it as the acknowledgement that some Metics can indeed be said to have protected the principles of the founding, and rewards were given to Athenian Metics after the restoration of democracy at the end of the Peloponnesian War with a similar basis.
But those who are opposed to going too far on Metic rights are concerned that by granting the metics too much, the city is effectively devaluing its own founding and the effort placed to create a new citizen body and new city among the Barbarians, by allowing similar powers to those who would come from outside without a care for the city. They also fear that core portions of their identity will be undermined and what Eretria is may be redefined by those who have little respect for its history or traditions. The greatest anxiety is mostly a concern that those who are Metics who come from cities without a tradition of democracy will be the greatest threat to it, because if they're not given representation they have little reason to care about the sanctity of the assembly. This was also the logic behind the original forming of the Metic Assembly in the first place.
Overall, the point is that the city of Eretria's greatest power is political stability combined with exterior pressure creating a flexible and malleable political culture more willing to reform and change in order to respond to concerns both within and without. This is also reflected in the demes, who constantly present citizens with ideas to improve the city and improve the lives of its people, not just out of altruism but because unlike in Rome, where public works elevate individual glory, the way in which virtue and service is expressed is by the continual improvement of Eretria and the wellbeing of its people at all times, and the factions mostly differ in how that improvement is to be pursued. They compete for public excellence, but are bound by the mass of the people which wishes for improvement, and attempts to become vainglorious that would lead them to folly or tyranny are quelled by the overwhelming pressure of the public assembly and the citizen service. There are a number of ways this could break down, of course, and this can lead to a kind of schizophrenia of purpose, but it also allows the city a great deal of flexibility in how it wishes to respond to crises where others can only find rigidity expressed as violence. But this attribute is not an infinite resource; push too hard in some direction and this agreement will break down.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
It sounds like politically, the City has a lot of give to it. That when confronted with an issue that stumps them, they arent just going to hit it again, but harder, but find another way to tackle the problem.
Eretria could become very powerful if given time and resources and space to grow.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Poo is generally not hard to find, so I doubt it is traded widely. Overland traffic is expensive and difficult, so it would be uneconomical to transport what is, when you get right down to it, a firewood substitute for long distances.
Also I'm not sure that burning poo would be the solution to global warming as you later imply?
- Location
- his hidden lair
I think in the longer term we'd have to wait for the collapse of Hellenic Greece's political independence at the hands of Phillip to really give us the impetus to resolve the Metic/Citizen divide. Potentially quite a few Greek refugees and immigrants, and backlash against tyranny and foreign oppression leading them to be receptive to the Eretrian ideals with Citizen acceptance spurred on by a need to assert hegemony in our part of Italia. Probably by emphasizing the Greek vs. Barbaroi divide even further.
Even then it would probably create something more along the lines of plebians.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
That's a horrible idea, unless we get brought to the literal brink of destruction, Citizenship is really fucking sacred. Even Rome, who weren't even proper Greeks and only tried to copy the Greeks outright refused proper citizenship to Italia despite massively shared culture and centuries of rule as well as having relied on them heavily for the Punic Wars.
We will never realistically be able to hand out de facto citizenship to Metics. Not unless we are willing to burn half the city down. The Poll Tax is crucial to our economy, the citizens would never allow them active participation in the Ekklesia in any significant number, Hell we just voted heavily to keep the death penalty for them if they try to involve themselves in the true Governing body.
Literally, it is a dream. A fantasy. A nice one, like most fantasies are. But it's never going to happen as long as Citizenship is sacred in our culture.
Which is it, it's a cornerstone of Hellenism, it's a cornerstone of Eretria, a unifying call from Aktimone to Aristoi that kept us together, and our Binary way of looking at the world actually enforced it. Wisdom/War and Youth/Healing. Land and Sea. Citizen and Non-Citizen. One Court, One City, One Rule, and everyone else outside of it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
This is overstated. Athens eventually allows metics to purchase citizenship, as stated above, once it loses its independence and the distinction between citizens and metics is no longer material.