Trade is fantastic, and I'm all in favour of it. But another fantastic thing are allies, and demographic strength, and that is also an advantage Rome had in spades, probably her strongest one as we've discussed before. Our hellenised barbaroi subjects give us access to that, catapulting us over the likes of most of our peers.

We just fought a war to gain the allegiance of the Mesapii. The Exorian domestic slate helps strengthen our ties with them, and brings in shed loads of money, without committing us to a war with the Dauni which I do not believe the time is right for yet.

This vote is all about leveraging and building upon the hard-won gains of the last war, for me.
 
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 1, 2019 at 7:59 PM, finished with 224 posts and 56 votes.
 
The ones with the large empire whose (early) expansion was financed to no small degree thanks to its fabulous income from trade with like I said earlier the trade with india via egypt playing a very significant role in the success of Augustus and his successors?
That's the Rome of later eras. And of course trade was important at that point, once you're a major empire that's bound to happen.

I'm talking about the Rome that established said empire in the first place, the early and mid-republic.

As for early Rome already being a local center of trade, well, duh, of course it was. So is Eretria Eshkata. Any city was, that's why cities exist. But it was by no means what the Romans were best at or famous for, and it was not what allowed them to achieve dominance in Italy, or what won them the Punic Wars.
 
You are the second or third guy to state this and by god it is starting to annoy me because I am really struggling to come up with a poor but populous state that was successful in this era while I know a lot of wealthy states that were successful even with limited manpower. And the funny thing about wealth is that it tends to attract people, even in those ancient times.

Like, uh, Sparta? Also Rome starting out.
 
Important Mechanical Change: Assembly Flexibility
Thought about the issues that there are with the xenoparakletor party system as it stands. I do like the party system and it provokes interesting options for players, but I also feel that it has become a little too constraining. Players no longer have the same freedom as they did in the past despite Eretria Eskhata ostensibly being a democracy where the assembly of voters holds the most sway. At the same time, I like forcing difficult choices on people that they might not have otherwise, and so I wanted to think of a compromise to this that doesn't overly impugn on one principle (a degree of flexibility) or the other (having meaningful and difficult choices). This is especially urgent in a situation with so many things happening; players shouldn't feel like they absolutely have to let pirates ravage Illyria. I could do this by making each party platform more comprehensive, but there are a limited number of things I can think of and it would way increase the workload.

For domestic politics there is already a solution: namely, the political offices. When a party wins a lower office, even if it doesn't win the office of proboulos, it is able to put forward some of its policies that might be relevant to that office. Since the result of the proboulos election influences but does not determine whether a deme will win one of the minor offices (combined with the xenoparakletor vote), there is a degree of variety and randomness here. In the foreign policy realm, this is less evident, but I also don't want as much mixing and matching. At the same time, responding to a crisis is important, and players should be able to, especially given I've curtailed the power of user motions so much.

With that in mind, next year, when the ekklesia meets again for the new year after the election, players will have the option to pick one of the six missions of the losing platforms. What this means is that, if Demos Drakonia wins, they will implement all of their foreign policy objectives, but players will also have the option of selecting one of the six missions presented by the Demos Antipatria or the Demos Exoria, and the same if either of the other two parties win. However, of course, players should weigh the expense and cost of these missions in conjunction with the successful boule's own missions. It could be quite expensive, for example, or synergize poorly with that xenoparakletor's skillset.

This should slightly reduce the schizophrenic nature of Eretrian politics without making it too easy to go in every direction at once; after all, at a certain point, there will just be too many things to be done in a single term, no matter how much it is wished for. But there is room for one additional mission on top of the three chosen by the election of a xenoparakletor.
 
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[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

Yeah alright, I do not mind throwing the dog a bone:V

As much as I would like to raise the Sacred Marriage above all, you are right and the whole hill is already dedicated to them. Add to that, I just love polytheisms. Let us add more gods to the hill!
 
It might perhaps be easier to manage diplomacy if we have a network of proxenoi in place as proposed by the Antipatrid policy. We do face a fundamental limitation in that we have only one xenoparakletor, but if we have regular contact with other Hellene cities it might give us more chances to arrange routine business without using up a mission as such and would help not get blindsided by developments while presumably also giving a bonus to any business that does have to be conducted by a diplomatic mission. Also the sooner we get that up and going and working properly the greater the chance that perhaps this new diplomatic paradigm might spread outside of Italia.
 
It might perhaps be easier to manage diplomacy if we have a network of proxenoi in place as proposed by the Antipatrid policy. We do face a fundamental limitation in that we have only one xenoparakletor, but if we have regular contact with other Hellene cities it might give us more chances to arrange routine business without using up a mission as such and would help not get blindsided by developments while presumably also giving a bonus to any business that does have to be conducted by a diplomatic mission. Also the sooner we get that up and going and working properly the greater the chance that perhaps this new diplomatic paradigm might spread outside of Italia.

This is correct, but is more of a long-time issue and one that I feel is more about your diplomatic capacity. The change above is more about a mechanical change; there isn't really necessarily a reason why some policies can't be done at the same time as others, though obviously I think there are some missions which synergize very poorly. Adding one more allows players some more freedom to address the pirates as you asked about without allowing you to pick them all at once.

Obviously if you establish proxenoi and get better diplomatic information you will get far more detailed information from everywhere where that network is established. Having a permanent embassy in Athenai (which would be the holy grail of such an effort) would allow you to discover as fast as possible what the mood is in Athenai, what they're thinking about, and what they're planning, within reason. However, because of that diplomatic advantage granted by having what are effectively ambassadors, larger states will be much more circumspect about granting such an honor with the privileges needed for it to be more effective than a traditional proxenos relationship.
 
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

Choosing Drakonia to strengthen the colonies and defend the merchants.

Let the office of the barbaroi be chosen as the losing platform.
 
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In the long run, I feel that a proper system of embassies with our sister Italiote cities is a huge game-changer. It will hopefully avoid ever having a situation like we did with Metapontion, where our Xenoparakletor had to run to see them in order for us to be credible. Strengthening diplomatic ties and common defence against common foes has huge potential.

This new and useful change to the mechanics also means that we could still conduct an anti-piracy operation even if we pick the Antipatrid foreign slate, or help build ties with the Mesapii, for that matter.

I would also urge people to vote Exoria for Proboulos here, as even if it does not win, if their vote share increases there is a better chance of us getting the Overland Trade or Festivals through one of the offices, and both of those are really neat.
 
I would also urge people to vote Exoria for Proboulos here, as eve if it does not win, if th vote share increases there is a better chance of us getting the Overland Trade or Festivals through one of the offices, and both of those are really neat.

Specifically, festivals would be if Exoria won the Grand Mantis and overland trade through the Agoranomoi.
 
Citizens,

In this election, I cannot speak from the faculty of reason. Here, I can only speak from the heart.

Some of the Pythagoreans are known to me, through my brother. Of those who hold to that philosophy, Antheia of Crotone is wise and fair, a true philosopher; a student of Theano, her sex does not dull the sharpness of her mind. Euclid Polydoros is clever and insightful, a shrewd judge of character. And Hektor of Thurii still owes me three talents from the time he used my olive press.

Leukos does not know the Pythagoreans as I do. They will enliven our city, bringing stories, philosophies and fresh perspectives; for that alone, let us re-elect Kyros Gennadios for Probolous.

So say I, Kyrillos Halophilos, mathematikon.

------

One of the big things that I haven't seen raised is that the Pythagoreans fully support women as philosophers. If we really want to distinguish Eretria, one easy way to do it is to harvest brilliant philosophers from the half the population that's essentially shut out of the public sphere.
 
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Specifically, festivals would be if Exoria won the Grand Mantis and overland trade through the Agoranomoi.

I still imagine the Grand Mantis as a giant praying mantis, which makes the idea of them presiding over youths dressed in animal masks undertaking pagan rites and leaping over flames even more like something out of a David Lynch film than it was before. :lol
 
That is actually a very very good change.

As a reminder:
Drakonia:
  • Military Mission: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians [3 Month campaign led by strategos Xanthos Irenaeos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
  • Xenoparakletor Mission: Dispatch the Xenoparakletor on a trading mission to the head of the Adriatic to convince the Enetoi to open up the Amber Road to Eretrian trade and gain a monopoly on amber exports to the rest of the Mediterranean. Through this we can new allies, but also a new trading network, with an ultimate goal of establishing a new lagoon-bound colony in the swampy marshes of the northern Adriatic from which we may receive the trade of cold Europa [Mission success dependent on Xenoparakletor. If successful, Eretria will be then be able to construct a trading colony in the Venetian lagoon and a new luxury trade route].
  • Diplomatic Mission: The polis of Kerkyra, once a proud democracy in the Ionian Sea, has been overtaken by oligarchs aligned with Korinthos. If Eretria is to maintain its advantage and control of the Adriatic sea this cannot stand. With the Athenians supporting the democratic faction and also encroaching on the Ionian Sea, Eretria must sway the democrats over to its side and restore them to power in order to ensure that the Ionian sea does not become either a Korinthian or Athenian lake [Diplomatic emissaries dispatched to sway Kerkyran Democrats. If successful, military mission will embark to Kerkyra to help them regain power as an Eretrian-aligned power neutral in the war between Athenai and Korinthos].

Antripata:
  • Diplomatic Mission: The situation in Sicily is reaching a boiling point. With a Sicilian Congress to be held in Gela in only three years time Eretria Eskhata must move to ensure that its interests and those of its allies are well-represented. To that end, a large sum of gold and emissaries will be dispatched through southwest Italia and Sicily in order to build a coalition against the interests of Syrakousai and their allies in the region and prevent them from using the conference as a jumping-off point to force concessions from the Sikeliotes. It is also a way for us to ensure that our allies see our continued support of their own interests and ambitions in the region to prevent Eretria Eskhata from being too militarily isolated.
  • Diplomatic Mission: Metapontion and the Italiote cities were able to force Eretria to concede its war goals and accept a peace brokered by them. Let us accept this peace, and let this disgrace never happen again, for in the future Eretria Eskhata will always ensure that the Italiotes are on our side and will have no reason to fear us. To this end, dispatch emissaries through Italia to create new proxenoi in all the major powers, from Rhegion to Metapontion, and guarantee specific laws and rights of these emissaries, including the right of residence and the right to advocate for Eretria Eskhata abroad. These proxenoi will be provided stipends by the city in order to keep them in their positions [4 extra public upkeep per turn, if mission successful, direct line of communication established between Eretria and the Italian cities of Lokri, Rhegion, Thurii, Krotone, and Metapontion].
  • Xenoparakletor Mission: Some may complain about the lack of support for the Messapii in the plan of the Demos Antipatria, but this is for far more important reasons, for we seek to reconcile Taras and Eretria once and for all through the mechanism of the city of Lykai, the last independent city in the Sallentine peninsula. To be sure, the Tarentine wound is still raw, but if we wish to prevent it from festering and take advantage of the peace party's renewed support, then we must move quickly and prevent a festering sore to open in our relations to transform us into permanent rivals. Let us use the city of Lykai, last independent city of the Sallentine and a symbol of Kerkyra's treachery, as an example of our reconciliation as we negotiate with Taras for its conquest. [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will be dispatched to Taras, if successful will be able to reconcile the two cities].
Exoria:
  • Military Mission: For decades the Dauni have sat on the border of the Epulian League and menaced our allies with raids and skirmishes. Their kings have plotted against us, warred with us, and allied against us many times. Now, the time has come to pay back the debt they have bestowed upon us by destroying them once and for all. The xenoparakletor will rally the cities of Herdonia, Salapia, and whatever other cities would be willing, and back them in a rebellion that seeks to overthrow King Ausculos and end the Dauni as a threat. Whether that will be through annexing the rest of the cities or simply replacing their leadership with something more amenable to Eretria remains to be seen, but the Dauni must be made to never again threaten the city of Eretria Eskhata [War against the Dauni with attendant strategos options].
  • Tributary Mission: The allies of Eretria fought well during the war with Taras, but they were slow to mobilize and sometimes disorganized. It is time to create a common command structure and organization of their levies so that we can call on set amounts of their men in war, rather than counting out the number of allies that we need with each war and giving them much grief in assembling the men to do so. In doing so we will tie them closer to us and make them more effective in battle [Opens up options to reform the militaries of the allies and make them more effective].
  • Xenoparakletor Mission: The question of the Messapii cannot wait. Too much is still to be settled, and where the other Demes would seek to let the issue lie for some time and let the wounds heal, better to tend to them ourselves. The Messapii must be pulled up from their place of devastation and become strong once more, so that their strength can become our strength, their numbers can become our numbers, and their cities will become part of our dominion in truth as well as in theory. The xenoparakletor will be dispatched on a tour of the Messapii cities to gain their respect and bring them into the Eretrian fold [If successful, access to about half of the possible Messapii levy and tribute, which will recover to its full potential over time].
So for me
Pirate Hunting- Need to do this ASAP, prevents loss of funds due to pirates (we are at a negative net income from construction currently so can't afford losses to a good chunk of our income). Plus gives us a colony to further control of the Adriatic and a place to offload metics into citizens to raise more hoplites. Very high priority for me
Amber monoply and Ventian Lagon-the sooner we grab this the sooner we get funds to use for military reforms either amongst our allies or ourselves. Very lucrative, plus the longer we put it off the greater the chance of someone else grabbing it. High priority for me.
Kreyka- A chance to bring a strong naval player into alignment with us and shut out expansion by Corinth and Athens westward. Kreyka is on an island at the eastern side of the mouth of the Adriatic into the Med and if we get them backing us gives us more naval force in any Sicilian campaign against Syracuse in the future. High priority for me.
Sicilian Congress- Coalition against Syracuse, nice to have to keep them from acting out. Medium High priority for me.
Italiote city diplomacy- keeps us from being cut off or surprised and a good way to prevent them from acting against us. Most important of Antripa policies to me.
Taras diplomacy- Nice if it works but this may be too soon with feelings still raw. This to me is something better to grab next election cycle and we need to be very careful about our choice of Xenoparakletor for this- actually we should figure out which of the three is the best then use them when we pick this mission.
War against Dauni- No, we need to put out other fires first and get our house in order before waging a war.
Tribute- Allied military reform -Potentially useful, which becomes more useful with the two colonies from Drakonia missions as that increases the number of allied troops to call upon also Drakonia domestic policy of boosted colonial growth means more manpower from the allied colonies
Messapii levy and tribute- Useful to bring them into the fold and start progress to make them like the Puketti. Just make sure we have the right man for the job.

Antripata and Drakonia are the ones I like the most though I lean Drakonia (trade+colonies for more hoplites and manpower sources and relieve metic pressure while smashing the pirates. Plus Drakonia was shut out of all offices last time, do we want to do that to them again?).

If we chose Drakonia I favor Italiote diplomacy for the additional mission and if we chose Antripata then Pirate Hunting is the obvious choice to grab for the additional mission IMHO.
 
Thought about the issues that there are with the xenoparakletor party system as it stands. I do like the party system and it provokes interesting options for players, but I also feel that it has become a little too constraining. Players no longer have the same freedom as they did in the past despite Eretria Eskhata ostensibly being a democracy where the assembly of voters holds the most sway. At the same time, I like forcing difficult choices on people that they might not have otherwise, and so I wanted to think of a compromise to this that doesn't overly impugn on one principle (a degree of flexibility) or the other (having meaningful and difficult choices). This is especially urgent in a situation with so many things happening; players shouldn't feel like they absolutely have to let pirates ravage Illyria. I could do this by making each party platform more comprehensive, but there are a limited number of things I can think of and it would way increase the workload.

For domestic politics there is already a solution: namely, the political offices. When a party wins a lower office, even if it doesn't win the office of proboulos, it is able to put forward some of its policies that might be relevant to that office. Since the result of the proboulos election influences but does not determine whether a deme will win one of the minor offices, there is a degree of variety and randomness here. In the foreign policy realm, this is less evident, but I also don't want as much mixing and matching. At the same time, responding to a crisis is important, and players should be able to, especially given I've curtailed the power of user motions so much.

With that in mind, next year, when the ekklesia meets again for the new year after the election, players will have the option to pick one of the six missions of the losing platforms. What this means is that, if Demos Drakonia wins, they will implement all of their foreign policy objectives, but players will also have the option of selecting one of the six missions presented by the Demos Antipatria or the Demos Exoria, and the same if either of the other two parties win. However, of course, players should weigh the expense and cost of these missions in conjunction with the successful boule's own missions. It could be quite expensive, for example, or synergize poorly with that xenoparakletor's skillset.

This should slightly reduce the schizophrenic nature of Eretrian politics without making it too easy to go in every direction at once; after all, at a certain point, there will just be too many things to be done in a single term, no matter how much it is wished for. But there is room for one additional mission on top of the three chosen by the election of a xenoparakletor.
In that case;
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

because I actually would like to make Kerkyra our ally, and am fine delaying the diplomat network as long as we can deal with syracuse.
 
@Cetashwayo
A particular design approach from another game like this that I've played in which might play well with this, is to have it so that mixing and matching is possible but that it reduces the total number of things that you can do, on account of increased partisan bickering in government, or that it makes everything you're doing more expensive, due to budgetary competition between rivals.
 
@Cetashwayo
A particular design approach from another game like this that I've played in which might play well with this, is to have it so that mixing and matching is possible but that it reduces the total number of things that you can do, on account of increased partisan bickering in government, or that it makes everything you're doing more expensive, due to budgetary competition between rivals.

It's possible, but I'll let this particular change play out. I prefer to avoid too much complexity on my end.
 
In the long run, I feel that a proper system of embassies with our sister Italiote cities is a huge game-changer. It will hopefully avoid ever having a situation like we did with Metapontion, where our Xenoparakletor had to run to see them in order for us to be credible. Strengthening diplomatic ties and common defence against common foes has huge potential.

This new and useful change to the mechanics also means that we could still conduct an anti-piracy operation even if we pick the Antipatrid foreign slate, or help build ties with the Mesapii, for that matter.

I would also urge people to vote Exoria for Proboulos here, as even if it does not win, if their vote share increases there is a better chance of us getting the Overland Trade or Festivals through one of the offices, and both of those are really neat.


I'll flip for Exoria if things don't turn around. But I really want to use the proboulous Drakonia to pull Eretria onto the adriatic without messing with Korinth yet offload our domestic problems onto the colonies.

I'd rather not just leave them be though.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 1, 2019 at 9:05 PM, finished with 244 posts and 60 votes.
 
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Is there a spot somewhere that describes what the various lower offices do? And if so can we get that added to an Info threadmark.
 
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
 
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[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 1, 2019 at 9:18 PM, finished with 247 posts and 62 votes.
 
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