Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[phil03]

-Yep they're at war and have both shown a tendency to infiltrate and overpower Adriatic powers such as Korinth did to Epidamnos then both Korinth and Athenai did to Kerkyra. Meaning they're perfectly happy to include proxy battles and expand their influence when and where they can.

-No more so than our colonies at Issa and Pharos as there's still a significant buffer between our two potential Epulian Members and Epidamnos. Not even talking about the massive distance between them and Kerkyra. Provoking a regional power like Eretria while they're still occupied with each other is a completely different kettle of fish than taking over unaffiliated minor cities. By that same notion we don't want to provoke them either so if they get those cities first, we sit our happy selves down and look in other directions.

-IF you think that's a good deal, I can only assume there is a massive disconnect between how you and I see power projection and control of trade routes in this time period of the Mediterranean. Ships had to hug the coast so us controlling such a large strip of northern Adriatic coast as well as the large strip of our Southern Adriatic coast means all Adriatic trade from the north has to go through Epulian hands.

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I guess my question would be then, what would the limits of our planned Adriatic sphere of influence? If you consider Athens going to Kerkyra some kind of threat because it is ''in the Adriatic'' you are essentially englobing cities who have traditionally been considered part of Hellas proper in our planned sphere of influence, and that's a hell of a claim to put forward.

 

[afterthought53]

I guess my question would be then, what would the limits of our planned Adriatic sphere of influence? If you consider Athens going to Kerkyra some kind of threat because it is ''in the Adriatic'' you are essentially englobing cities who have traditionally been considered part of Hellas proper in our planned sphere of influence, and that's a hell of a claim to put forward.

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I consider Kerkyra as a gateway/springboard to the Adriatic but everything from Aulon and Northwest of there as part of the Adriatic. Kerkyra may not be in the Adriatic proper but its power projection was definitely involved in the Adriatic as they made much of their trade income from there.

 

[phil03]

I consider Kerkyra as a gateway/springboard to the Adriatic but everything from Aulon and Northeast of there as part of the Adriatic.

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Ok, that's already a bit more realistic but even Aulon would very much be the ideal, and maximalist, southern line of expansion.

We could still very much live with a line considerably to the north of that, in the grand scheme of things, and still have our pocket naval empire.

 

[Spacegnom]

-IF you think that's a good deal, I can only assume there is a massive disconnect between how you and I see power projection and control of trade routes in this time period of the Mediterranean. Ships had to hug the coast so us controlling such a large strip of northern Adriatic coast as well as the large strip of our Southern Adriatic coast means all Adriatic trade from the north has to go through Epulian hands.

Click to shrink...

We already control both coastlines between Pharos/Issa and Ankon/Pylona. These two minor cities won't change north-south trade flows that much. I would also point out that going for the 25 Talent per turn option, means taking full control of the northern Adriatic trade. Yes, In exchange for that I'm willing to give the mainland powers 4 years of trying to extend their spheres of influence into the southern Adriatic.

But I simply can't resist the opportunity to kick out the last two, I think at least, big Greek outpost in the Adriatic while our victory is still fresh and othrrwise distracted.

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These are only two among 7 cities in the southern Adriatic. Aulon & Epidamnos are probably the most important poleis (location wise), when it comes to controlling the southern Adriatic. One of which we won't be able to pry loose from Korinth without risking war. I say let Korinth and Athens struggle for influence in the south, while we take control of the north.

 

[afterthought53]

Ok, that's already a bit more realistic but even Aulon would very much be the ideal, and maximalist, southern line of expansion.

We could still very much live with a line considerably to the north of that, in the grand scheme of things, and still have our pocket naval empire.

Click to shrink...

I don't understand what your saying exactly? The option is about integrating Melania Kerkyra and Epidauros, both of which are significantly north of all Epulain cities other than Ankon from before the Liburnian campaign.

Aulon was just me answering what I consider as the Adriatic.

 

[phil03]

I don't understand what your saying exactly? The option is about integrating Melania Kerkyra and Epidauros, both of which are significantly north of all Epulain cities other than Ankon from before the Liburnian campaign.

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Yes, and I in favour of it. I am making a larger argument that those who see Athens going to Kerkyra, or even as potentially taking some of the southernmost cities, as somehow empeding on Eretrian sphere of interests are severly overestimating how much we can chew as a state.

 

[Erandil]

I've slightly revised my existing User Motion. I've removed all references to the Demes and instead states that the candidates with the second and third most votes become the Junior Xenoparkletor. This doesn't privileged any of the Demes in law now, but they're all still likely to benefit and win these Junior positions as a result.

If anything, though, it's extremely beneficial to minor parties. They're going to be up against a huge incumbency disadvantage compared to the three existing Demes and there's nothing that they can really do about that. They could win some of the minor offices by lot, but that's not terribly likely. If, now, however, they manage to get themselves into 3rd place in the Xenoparkletor election, they can obtain some influence and build on that over the course of a couple elections, building up experience all the while.

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Honestly that seems to needlessly limit our options as we can't be guaranteed that our candidates are always happy to cooperate. I mean so far we have been lucky that the personalities and goals of our officers haven't clashed to badly but there could easily come a time where we get two bitter rivals with very different ideas on what to pursue on that post and a rule like that would fuck us.

 

[afterthought53]

Yes, and I in favour of it. I am making a larger argument that those who see Athens going to Kerkyra, or even as potentially taking some of the southernmost cities, as somehow empeding on Eretrian sphere of interests are severly overestimating how much we can chew as a state.

Click to shrink...

Ah now I understand. Yes, I agree for the most part but it's one of those do what you can and hope for the best situations. By taking Melania Kerkyra and Epidauros and opening dialogue with Athens we can manage the Adriatic situation while they focus elsewhere rather than having both of us acting independently and coming to blows because of it or other misunderstandings.

 

[Cavalier]

The following submitted by Alexis, son of Kallias Aristeides, to the theater competition of the festival of Apollon and Artemis in honor of the gods in year 353 of the Olympics. With prayers and sacrifices to Dionysios for the success of the enterprise.

Spoiler: The Death of Odysseus

Players
Circe, a demigod and Sorceress
Odysseus, King of Ithaca
Penelope, wife of Odysseus
Telegonus, son of Odysseus and Circe
Telemachus, son of Odysseus and Penelope
The Pythia, priestess of Apollon
Athena
Apollon
Chorus, citizens of Ithaca

Prologos
Stage arranged with trees:
Circe informs her son Telegonus of his true father, the hero of the Trojan War, Odysseus. She reveals that Odysseus has banished his other son Telemachus to the far side of Ithaca and charges Telegonus to seek out his father and claim his own inheritance. In aid she provides him a magical spear tipped with the spine of a venomous stingray. He exits, and Circe then laments that she has set into motion a tragedy under the orders of Apollon but that even as Helios' daughter she has no choice but to obey the will of the Olympians.

Act I
Stage arranged with trees:
Odysseus and the Chorus are on stage. The Chorus demands to know why Odysseus has banished his only son and heir, Telemachus, to Corcyra. Odysseus reluctantly relates the twin prophecies of his death. Tireseas in Hades predicted his death would be gentle and come from the sea, while the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona warned him that his son would bring his death. In order to avoid a kin-slaying, he has removed his son from Ithaca. The meeting is interrupted by Telegonus in his full war array, shouting a battle-cry, as the Chorus responds with alarm at the appearance of a feared raider from overseas. Odysseus and Telegonus struggle, and the former is stabbed with the magic spear before retreating off-stage and the latter then exits in triumph.

Stasima
The Chorus notes that matters in Ithaca have come to a head. The appearance of a heroic raider stealing sheep and cattle from the island followed shortly after the exile of Telemachus. They chide that had Odysseus trusted Telemachus he would have had the aid of his fearsome son in the battle. Instead, his family divided unjustly from within by petty jealousy and having attempted to thwart the always ambiguous prophecy of an Oracle, Odysseus has brought about his own doom.

Act II
Stage arranged with fake walls:
Odysseus lays mortally wounded in his halls, tended by Penelope and with Athena looking on. The Chorus stir over what will happen, as Telemachus enters the stage girt for war. He has heard of the doom of his father and has come to avenge him, despite the unjust exile he was put to. Odysseus apologizes and motions for his son to embrace him. Then the Chorus stirs as Telegonus enters, having taken off his helmet. As Telemachus rises to battle Athena manifests herself and calls a halt. She explains that Telegonus is the son of Odysseus with Circe, and Odysseus has a moment of recognition before telling Telemachus not to add to the legacy of kin-slaying and passing peacefully from the poison of the spear. A distraught Telegonus is prevented from suicide by the goddess, who instead directs the family of Odysseus to the shrine of Apollo at Delphi for ritual purification.

Stasima
The Chorus laments the ironic turn of fate, for all the prophecies of the death of Odysseus have been fulfilled. He has died at peace, his death having come from the sea and at the hands of his son. Just as Odysseus slew the innocent young son of Hektor, and by that barbarity incurred the displeasure of Apollon, so has Apollon arranged that Odysseus has been slain in innocence by his own son.

Act III
Stage arranged with a tripod and smoke:
The Pythia sits on her tripod and awaits Telegonus. The hero enters with Telemachus, Penelope, and the Chorus. He is wearing rags and grieving loudly at his damnation, while Penelope is garbed as a widow and Telemachus in mourning. The Pythia rises to address them. To Penelope she offers the comfort that she is a blameless widow of impeccable repute and promises that she will find a suitable marriage after her mourning. To Telemachus, she offers that he is King of Ithaca, and a lordly one who has not inherited the enmity of Odysseus' many godly enemies. But to Telegonus she demands he depart as a kin-slayer whose presence pollutes the halls of the temple. Telegonus rises in fury and threatens the Pythia before Apollon enters and quells them. He establishes that even kin-slayers may consult his oracle as long as they come seeking a means of repentance and purification, and tells Telegonus to return to Aeaea with the body of his father that family of Odysseus shall be mended and made whole again.

Stasima
The Chorus discusses the case of Orestes and Electra, son and daughter of Agamemnon, who slew their mother to avenge their father. This culmination of the curse of the Atreides and their subsequent purification by the jury of Athens was arranged by Apollon and Athene working together. Having ordered one kin-slaying in the name of justice, Apollon must now set a precedent with this new incident of patricide. The absence of the Eumenides is noted by the Chorus, who conclude that the balance of justice was that Odysseus should die in punishment for his many acts of hubris and immorality and that Telegonus was as an unwitting pawn of the gods not responsible for what happened.

Act IV
Stage arranged with trees:
Circe waits for her son to return and is visited by Athene. The goddess commands that she purify Telegonus for his manslaughter and confirms that she has rendered the body of Odysseus incorruptible before she departs. Telegonus enters the stage with Telemachus and Penelope. Circe embraces her son and anoints him with a magical healing oil to cleanse his spirit. Telegonus relays the words of Apollon, and Circe deciphers them. Odysseus shall be buried with his panoply and treasures in a grand tomb on the island in testimony to his greatness, as with the heroes of old, and with his internment the Trojan War shall finally end. No more feuds will be pursued or blood be shed on its account. And to bring the family to unity and restore the bonds frayed by the kin-slaying, there will be a dual-marriage. Telemachus is to wed Circe, and Telegonus is to wed Penelope.

Exodus
The wedding is conducted by Apollon, as Telegonus and Telemachus are both blessed by Athena as her new favorites and given the draught of immortality she refused to Tydeus. Apollon prophecies that new greatness shall emerge from these lineages in a land far from Hellas, and decrees that breaches in moral relations be resolved by appeal to the gods rather than the shedding of blood in impious rage or cold fury.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm? This was the last you heard of Brention:

And it's been several years since then; Eretrian protection and increasing volumes of Adriatic trade are making the port larger and the town more prosperous.

Click to shrink...

It bears remembering that Brention is located on the site of what OTL became the Roman city of Brundisium and today's city of Brindisi. It is a major port city for the southern Adriatic. If not for strategic and political factors (the huge influx of Eretrian refugees founding a larger city on the site of OTL Bari and then smashing Brention into a position of subservience), Brention might well be benefiting from a large slice of the trade that instead goes to us.

How exactly would opening up an embassy be making us a vassal of Athens? Doing so is a necessary step in order to avoid such an end result. Since it gives us fore warning about stuff like that.

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Athens is accustomed to using its naval power to coerce any city weak enough to be coerced. Forcing Eretria into subjugation would be a stretch for them, but they could do it.

Having an Eretrian proxenos in Athens does mean that we'll be more aware of, and more represented in, Athens. On the other hand, it also means we will have more of Athens' attention. Athens may be more inclined to make demands of us. Demands that may interfere with our treaty with Taras (Remember that? We promised NOT to ally with mainland Hellene powers...)

More communication with Athens cuts both ways.

Again you speak as if the amber route is going to be gone. It isn't because its build upon our relationship with the Enetoi. Which isnt likely to degrade anytime soon.

Click to shrink...

If Athens is going to be gone any time soon either, we probably shouldn't send a proxenos there, or at least not one we'd miss if the city sank into the sea or something.

Similarly, we still sell the Athenians large amounts of badly needed grain, have never harmed them in any way, and are a strategic counterweight to one of their greatest rivals. Why would we expect an attack from them? What would be the motive? I get why we want intelligence on doings in Athens in general as a general principle, but that doesn't mean it's the single most important foreign policy objective we have, when there are so many other things happening much closer to our own sphere of influence, and so many opportunities for us to secure assets and strengthen our position.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Athens may be more inclined to make demands of us. Demands that may interfere with our treaty with Taras (Remember that? We promised NOT to ally with mainland Hellene powers...)

More communication with Athens cuts both ways.

Click to shrink...

And if they do, we tell Athens to fuck off and rally with Taras. If needed and Athens pushes us that far, we can always piggyback on Taras to go to Sparta.

But any of that kind of maneuver requires knowing what the fuck Athens is doing. Which is ultimately a benefit for us.

 

[phil03]

Ah now I understand. Yes, I agree for the most part but it's one of those do what you can and hope for the best situations. By taking Melania Kerkyra and Epidauros and opening dialogue with Athens we can manage the Adriatic situation while they focus elsewhere rather than having both of us acting independently and coming to blows because of it or other misunderstandings.

Click to shrink...

I agree on the grand scheme of things but I do believe that we can afford to secure Melania Kerkyra and Epidauros without consultations, as those are very far from the center of Athens interests as it is.

 

[afterthought53]

Spoiler: The Death of Odysseus

/snip

Click to shrink...

Maginficent!
A true masterpiece displaying Eretria's obsession with marriage and duality.

I agree on the grand scheme of things but I do believe that we can afford to secure Melania Kerkyra and Epidauros without consultations, as those are very far from the center of Athens interests as it is.

Click to shrink...

I agree that we can secure them without consultations. However, from the snippets in the updates and looking at previous trends I would say the Histri are the least time critical of the four issues between Antipatira and Exoria (Athens/Histri/2 Cities/Messapi). This is why I would vote Antipatria and use the extra on the Messappi, leaving out the Histri for later.

 

[Simon_Jester]

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi.

Hmm? This was the last you heard of Brention:

And it's been several years since then; Eretrian protection and increasing volumes of Adriatic trade are making the port larger and the town more prosperous.

Click to shrink...

It bears remembering that Brention is located on the site of what OTL became the Roman city of Brundisium and today's city of Brindisi. It is a major port city for the southern Adriatic. If not for strategic and political factors (the huge influx of Eretrian refugees founding a larger city on the site of OTL Bari and then smashing Brention into a position of subservience), Brention might well be benefiting from a large slice of the trade that instead goes to us.

How exactly would opening up an embassy be making us a vassal of Athens? Doing so is a necessary step in order to avoid such an end result. Since it gives us fore warning about stuff like that.

Click to shrink...

Athens is accustomed to using its naval power to coerce any city weak enough to be coerced. Forcing Eretria into subjugation would be a stretch for them, but they could do it.

Having an Eretrian proxenos in Athens does mean that we'll be more aware of, and more represented in, Athens. On the other hand, it also means we will have more of Athens' attention. Athens may be more inclined to make demands of us. Demands that may interfere with our treaty with Taras (Remember that? We promised NOT to ally with mainland Hellene powers...)

More communication with Athens cuts both ways.

A question to everyone: Why are people voting so much for Demos Exoria as the Xenoparkletor? They're not the Demos that's keen to work with the Enteoi and get us the amber monopoly, but are reconciling us with the Histri.

Click to shrink...

Because they *are* the demos that's keen to integrate the Messapii into our Italian hinterland-empire, which is a priority we've been neglecting throughout Obander's four-year term as xenoparakletor.

OBANDER: Unfortunately the Spartans are extremely hostile to any foreigners not among their friends and allies. Even the Tarentines occasionally have their emissaries ejected through the rite of Xenelasia, in which foreigners seen as a threat to the public interest are expelled.

Click to shrink...

[cannot help but visualize the words THIS IS SPARTA being involved]

 

[racnor]

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi.

 

[phil03]

[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi.

Oh well, since it appear the Messapii mission will be strong ods favourite in the vote next year I suppose we can give Obander one last hurrah.

 

[The Phoenixian]

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)

I have one desire here and one only, and that is proper running water and sewers.

Even without the appearance cholera, I think the worth of proper water sourcing and treatment in securing the health and growth of the city should not be underestimated. We already see that there are other disease that can exist in the waters and so caring for logistics of water and waste, might well aid in lowering child mortality and, through that, raising growth. Not to mention the effects of better sanitation on public happiness.

 

[SirKaid]

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi.

As always, my friends, we are blessed to have a wealth of wisdom and experience in those who seek office. I believe, however, that our choices in this election, at least for Proboulos, are as clear as the streets are not. To be blunt, I'm tired of slipping in shit while running messages around. It's a disgrace. We're better than this.

As for Xenoparakletor, I favour the Antipatrid platform. We should not forget Athenai as, for good and ill, they are powerful friends and terrible enemies. Obander should be able to maintain their status as the former or at very least prevent the latter.

So speaks Kaidos the Messenger.

 

[DkArthas]

Hmm. Obandar would be just the right dude to negotiate with Kymai, Rhegion and other Hellenes. Even if we choose to integrate the barbaroi in our policy pick, it should work out since the King is supposed to be pretty Hellenic.

 

[Wellhello]

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi

I Isigas son of of Euplastos shall vote for Epiktetos Linos as proboulos. Though it may pain the pious hellene in me to forego the new festival in honour of Persephone and her mother or pythagorean mathematekoi the simple fact is that trade and commerce is the lifeblood of our polis. And as I am a stonemason the same way as my father before me I would love to work at our first sewer system, it is seriously needed you can smell the city before you can see it depending on the wind. But once again the mercantile needs of our city take precedence, new colonies in the adriatic, the kymaian rescue mission, the defense of our hegemony on the sea necessitates a a greater harbour. But by Apollo's shining abs, I hope we pick the sewers next time. (By the way, my halfbrother is a good carpenter if anybody is interested, he makes everything, boats, ships and the most stable funriture you have ever seen.)

As for xenoparakletor I will vote for Obander Eupraxis of the Demos Antipatria. Although I wish I could support Mnemnon Keylonos again because we need to bring the Messapii into the fold lest they grow too independant, I feel that the plan of the Demos Antipatria helps further our domination of the adriatic sea the most. The new harbours will lessen the power of potential rivals and secure us the site of a new potential colony near Pharos and Issa. Besides we have seen what happens if the baleful eye of one of the great hellenic powers wanders in our general direction. We must not be catched unawres again.

Last but not least I am of the opinion that we should sttle the people of Kymai, if they agree, near the Daorsi, it is once again in the metaphorical neigbourhood of ozr already existing colonies and not so far away that we would we incapable of intervening in a timely manner should the need arise.

 

[Taut_Templar]

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)

[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)

[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi.

 

[phil03]

Random question @Cetashwayo:

Who is burried in the cemeterie of heroes? We know Drako, Eusebios and Antipater are and Herodion seem like a no brainer. Is there anyone else?

 

[Cetashwayo]

Random question @Cetashwayo:

Who is burried in the cemeterie of heroes? We know Drako, Eusebios and Antipater are and Herodion seem like a no brainer. Is there anyone else?

Click to shrink...

Eusebios, Drako, Antipater, Herodion, Eutropios, Hesperos, Ambrosios. Hesperos and Ambrosios were moved from their prior graves and chosen mostly for their part in the city's founding; if they had been alive at the time of the cemetery's founding they would not have been put in there, but as both passed before their legends were somewhat magnified. Eutropios was put there at Herodion's last request, as his lover had died years earlier but Herodion said he did not wish to be buried without him by his side.

 

[Cavalier]

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Island of the Enetoi. Placing the Kymaians in the island of the Enetoi will surely be a significiant shift for them, but it will create a colony only accessible by sea to secure new trade with both the Enetoi and the Etruscans, in an area with fewer hostile tribes and neighbors [-20 talents per turn in grain shipments until Kymai is evacuated, Xenoparakletor will attempt to negotiate a grant of land from the Enetoi].

"Eretria is blessed with an abundance of talent for this election. Let no deme feel that its efforts are unappreciated. For the genius of our city is that we recognize the needs of the polis change with the years. One man's arete is needed for a time, and then another's, and yet we might call upon the first again with no shame or loss to any man's honor.

With that in mind I find myself in agreement that we must look to our own city this year. The miasmas and stench are unforgivable. We should be a city of cleanliness and purity worthy of the new temples we have erected. There is much wisdom as well in expanding the Ekdromoi and Kleos Exoria, for our citizens have prospered and greatly expanded in number but so too have our enemies. And a festival celebrating Demeter and Persephone is needed to recognize and thank them for the bounty of the harvest upon which our city's strength will always rest first and foremost.

Obander Eupraxis has given us good service as xenoparakletor. I believe he is most suited to negotiation with Kymai and Rhegion, and he is known to the Enetoi from his earlier mission to them. If we wish for the success of this enterprise he is the man best suited to direct it. And while I too am wary of foreign adventures, we must remember that Athenai has long been our friend. A volatile friend, but rebuilding the bonds between our cities is all the more important as Athenian power waxes. Best they should look upon us as a friendly presence securing the Adriatic from their rivals Korinthos, than as a commercial competitor. And Obander too is the best man for this job, for he is not overly enamored of the Athenians so as to fall for their guile, but they shall remember him for the benefits he provided them in Sicily and be impressed with his rectitude and kleos.

We will still need to seek arrangements with the Messapii soon, but the demes have assured we shall have the opportunity to do so and Obander has worked well with Memnon in the past. So I trust he will be able to handle such a mission easily enough. Let us make use of his talents for the good of the city this last time so that his retirement is upon the highest note that a citizen could wish for.

That is what Phokion Aristeides thinks best for the city for this election."

 

[Yamez]

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)

The sewers is a no brainer, absolutely. Health, cleanliness, glory, Security all in one go. It's such a necessary improvement, it's not even funny. My only desire would be to see small fortified settlements placed along the route of the tunnels to ensure a military and cultural presence along the veins which feed the city.

[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)

[X] The Harbor of the Histri.

I wanna see that venetian colony eventually as well, and this jives well with it. Gotta get that monopoly.