Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[phil03]

But we dont need to rely solely on assumptions. Thats the whole fucking point of establishing Embassies. We established embassies with Taras and the Italiotes so that we didnt have to rely on assumptions to guess their movements and interests. And thus the same is true for Athens. The less assumptions we have to make and the more concrete information we have on the diplomatic front, the better we are able to respond to events.

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And if the choice was an abstract ''should we have an embassy in Athens'' I would be all for it but right now we have two-time sensitive missions of some importance to deal with and going to Athens would make our Xenopralector go on a massive detour before heading to Kimai...

Considering that, appart the embassy, the one thing we are likely to get out of the expedition would be a confirmation that the Peace of Callias is still gonna happen ITTL I feel they're is definitely more important things to attend right now.

 

[Japanime]

1. Yes, it's different. All the Kymai options are focused on securing land for the colony, while the "main" options for these locations have better rewards.
2. Amber is carried through the Amber road and finds its terminus among the Enetoi. The Enetoi cities all have rights on the amber trade, and so now they'd agree that they'd only trade this amber to you. Not to Kymai. Your merchants would be the ones getting the lucrative contracts and seals that would allow them to pick up amber, not Kymai's.

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So in essence, even if the new Kymaian colony is nearby the Enetoi, they can't really exploit this as they won't have the seals necessary to buy and then resale the amber right?

I'm curious then, how come no one else has negotiated with the Enetoi to gain a monopoly on the Mediterranean amber trade, considering how well known this is and how lucrative it would be?

 

[Professor Vesca]

So in essence, even if the new Kymaian colony is nearby the Enetoi, they can't really exploit this as they won't have the seals necessary to buy and then resale the amber right?

I'm curious then, how come no one else has negotiated with the Enetoi to gain a monopoly on the Mediterranean amber trade, considering how well known this is and how lucrative it would be?

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Lack of size, and poor positioning.

 

[Cetashwayo]

So in essence, even if the new Kymaian colony is nearby the Enetoi, they can't really exploit this as they won't have the seals necessary to buy and then resale the amber right?

I'm curious then, how come no one else has negotiated with the Enetoi to gain a monopoly on the Mediterranean amber trade, considering how well known this is and how lucrative it would be?

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Yes, they wouldn't have access to the amber.

No one else has the clout to do so, good enough relations to the Enetoi, and the new amber road has only recently reached the Enetoi. An older version of the amber road actually ran into the black sea through the Danube and was distributed that way, but the increasing trade in the Adriatic has shifted enough quantities to be notable into North Italy, where the Enetoi trade it to the Etruscans. But the Enetoi don't have the ships or contacts to trade beyond the northern Adriatic.

 

[Japanime]

Yes, they wouldn't have access to the amber.

No one else has the clout to do so, good enough relations to the Enetoi, and the new amber road has only recently reached the Enetoi. An older version of the amber road actually ran into the black sea through the Danube and was distributed that way, but the increasing trade in the Adriatic has shifted enough quantities to be notable into North Italy, where the Enetoi trade it to the Etruscans. But the Enetoi don't have the ships or contacts to trade beyond the northern Adriatic.

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That's good to know. We're in a pretty unique situation regarding the Amber monopoly then, as we seem to be the only ones able and poised to actually make use of it, while our rivals either don't have the good relations or the ability to make use of this trade route.

Assuming we still choose to settle the Kymaians at the Venetian Lagoon, and don't choose to take the Drakonid foreign policy missions, could it be assumed that with a colony being formed there, as that is one of the main impetuses for the Drakonid mission, that the mission itself would disappear from Demos Drakonia's slate, making it so that we would need to use a user motion to negotiate for the amber monopoly rights, as negotiating for the rights seem too small to warrant a mission itself?

 

[Cetashwayo]

That's good to know. We're in a pretty unique situation regarding the Amber monopoly then, as we seem to be the only ones able and poised to actually make use of it, while our rivals either don't have the good relations or the ability to make use of this trade route.

Assuming we still choose to settle the Kymaians at the Venetian Lagoon, and don't choose to take the Drakonid foreign policy missions, could it be assumed that with a colony being formed there, as that is one of the main impetuses for the Drakonid mission, that the mission itself would disappear from Demos Drakonia's slate, making it so that we would need to use a user motion to negotiate for the amber monopoly rights, as negotiating for the rights seem too small to warrant a mission itself?

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The Demos Drakonia mission will be adapted in the future if you don't choose to establish a monopoly but establish Kymai. However 25 talents is still far and away the largest income gain of any option and so it remains a very powerful choice.

 

[Redium]

A question to everyone: Why are people voting so much for Demos Exoria as the Xenoparkletor? They're not the Demos that's keen to work with the Enteoi and get us the amber monopoly, but are reconciling us with the Histri.

 

[Japanime]

A question to everyone: Why are people voting so much for Demos Exoria as the Xenoparkletor? They're not the Demos that's keen to work with the Enteoi and get us the amber monopoly, but are reconciling us with the Histri.

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My main reason for voting for the Demos Exoria is because they will help further integrate the Messapii as vassals to us, opening up tribute and levies for us. The reconciliation with the Histri doesn't particularly hurt either, as that would only help us in the Adriatic even if we don't construct a trading colony after negotiations with them. As the GM said, we're in a unique position regarding the amber monopoly, and it is something we could afford to put off until later, though the 25 talents a turn is mighty tempting.

 

[Nyvis]

My main reason for voting for the Demos Exoria is because they will help further integrate the Messapii as vassals to us, opening up tribute and levies for us. The reconciliation with the Histri doesn't particularly hurt either, as that would only help us in the Adriatic even if we don't construct a trading colony after negotiations with them. As the GM said, we're in a unique position regarding the amber monopoly, and it is something we could afford to put off until later, though the 25 talents a turn is mighty tempting.

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Couldn't we just pick the Messappii mission independently?

As for the monopoly... People seem set on settling Kymai on that, so if we don't do it this turn, it might become more complicated to do.

 

[phil03]

A question to everyone: Why are people voting so much for Demos Exoria as the Xenoparkletor? They're not the Demos that's keen to work with the Enteoi and get us the amber monopoly, but are reconciling us with the Histri.

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The more we wait the more the Messapii will get get comforted in the idea that their vassal status is pretty much a defensive pact under a different name. The more we wait the more trouble its gonna be to get them to pay tributes and levies and the more resentment it will create among them.

In a similar fashion, the Antipatrid slate is also time sensitive as Kerkyra and Athens might also make a diplomatic move for those colonies, and while I personally find ensuring the security of our own backyard more important I can understand why some would deem taking care of the colonies the priority.

The drakonid slate, on the other hand, is nice but it isn't urgent, nor even really time sensitive beyond some possible issues with the Picenties. Even if we wait the amber is gonna be around for the time being.

They're is also the fact that, while the Drakonid candidate seem like a promising young fellow, Memnon and Obander are our two best diplomats by a good marging. Considering we are embarking in a hard, and potentially dangerous mission regarding Kimai I rather have one of those two at the helm rather then an unproved newcomer.

For all things and purposes the Drakonids pretty much conceded the election for Xenopralector when Linos ran for Proboulos.

 

[McLuvin]

Couldn't we just pick the Messappii mission independently?

As for the monopoly... People seem set on settling Kymai on that, so if we don't do it this turn, it might become more complicated to do.

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Obander does not have the capability to deal with the Enetoi or Messappi, he is a specialist in Hellenic diplomacy, as seen in Sicily, further the Drakonid candidate is a young untested boy, with seemingly no specialisation aside from being friendly, with several low stats and a focus on charisma alone.

Basically, Mnemnon is the better choice for several things, as he is slightly less limited in major policies we are seeking to enact then others

 

[Japanime]

Couldn't we just pick the Messappii mission independently?

As for the monopoly... People seem set on settling Kymai on that, so if we don't do it this turn, it might become more complicated to do.

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We could obviously pick the Messappii mission independently, but when it comes to these votes we're not just picking the slates we want but also the candidates who will have to execute these missions as well. Furthermore, the Xenoparakletor this turn will also find themselves having to negotiate with one of the barbaroi in order to secure a new colony site for the Kymaians. So out of all the Xenoparakletor candidates I feel that Mnemnon is the best fit for negotiating with all of the barbaroi we will have to deal with, as he is more in tune with them culturally due to his rugged lifestyle.

When it comes to the additional foreign policy mission, as one of the strongest candidates is that of the mission to Athens, I don't believe Mnemnon would be severely disadvantaged there, as it was said that all of the candidates would find themselves somewhat lost due the gigantic nature of Athens. Thus, if I had to choose, I think I would rather trust Mnemnon to have to work with the Antipatrid additional mission than say Obander attempting to negotiate with the Messapii.

Edit:

further the Drakonid candidate is a young untested boy, with seemingly no specialisation aside from being friendly, with several low stats and a focus on charisma alone.

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Might as well point this out now, but the Drakonid candidate actually does have some appeal to him, in that he does know the language of the Enetoi and the Histri, which could obviously help with negotiations there.

But, as the rescue of Kymai is a cross platform affair, I think it's safe to say that we'll be bringing him along when we negotiate with the Enetoi as it seems that both Obander and Mnemnon last time they were there didn't know the language.

He knows the Attic, Akhaian, and Doran dialects of Greek, Iapygian, and the languages of the Enetoi and Histri.

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[Deadly Snark]

Might as well point this out now, but the Drakonid candidate actually does have some appeal to him, in that he does know the language of the Enetoi and the Histri, which could obviously help with negotiations there.

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That is certainly helpful, but that only means he's smart at learning language, not competent at being our head diplomat.

Give him a few years working as the aide of a proven Xeno, and I can see us giving him the job. But as it is, not matter how good the Drakonid foreign policy is, we simply cannot pick him. He is smply too untested to be entrusted with missions that sensitive.

The question is not. Why arent people voting for the Drakonid Foreign Policy. But rather, why are people voting for the Drakonid Candidate who seems to be woefully under-qualified for this very important position. Since remember, the key is not just to vote for the best policies, but also the best person for the job.

 

[fasquardon]

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi. Placing the Kymaians near the town of Epidauros in the central Adriatic would help secure the routes to Hellas from that section of the sea and strengthen the Eretrian presence in a region that it has so far had less influence in, potentially opening up new trade routes to the middle balkans [-20 talents per turn in grain shipments until Kymai is evacuated, Xenoparakletor will negotiate with the Daorsi].

Once again each of the Demes has put forwards an excellent plan. I commend Korydon Morys Drakonid, Epiktetos Linos, Kyros Gennadios, Obander Eupraxis, Mnemnon Keylonos and Theron Archippos for the speeches they have given us on their intentions if they should be elected.

It is unfortunate that the Ekklesia must choose only two. For my own part, I believe Epiktetos Linos has the wisest proposals for military reform. Eretria needs more ships, so my vote is his. Also the register of merchant ships and the expansion of the harbour will multiply the funds of the city, allowing us to act more energetically. To those who say that we need sewers, it is true. But I say we would do better to clean up the city by encouraging the growth of our colonies. Eretria herself does not lack for the labour of men and to encourage solid Eretrian stock to seek the opportunities of the colonies we may reap great advantage as those colonies will be more Eretrian in culture and the triremes the colonies may send to aid us in war are of greater value than an overflowing metic district at home.

And yes, I did call the metics of Eretria solid Eretrians. Those who fled the tyranny of Gelon have had children and grandchildren in this city, and though they do not join us in the Ekklesia, they are surely more Eretrian than they are anything else.

That said, the plans of Epiktetos Linos and Theron Archippos work hand in glove. We need both the larger fleet and the expanded Ekdromoi. We need both the larger harbour and the sewers and cisterns. We need both the skilled craftsmen Epiktetos would seek to attract and the great numbers that Theron would invite to our city. I would not be overly sad to see Theron win the election for proboulos. As to the policies of Kyros Gennadios of Demos Antipatria, I believe all of his plan is desirable, but his plan does not address any crying needs like those Epiktetos and Theron seek to address.

On the matter of our next xenoparakletor, I believe Obander is the man of the day for he is the best man to go to Athens and to go to Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra. Since he will not put himself forwards in 4 years, he must be chosen now. To bring Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra into our league would greatly strengthen our position in the Adriatic, especially since Korinthos will not be weak and distracted forever (though even with their current ill fortunes, Korinthos are still very mighty when compared to us). When it comes time for the Ekklesia to choose a policy for the xenoparakletor, I intend to send Obander to straighten out the Messapii.

[ @Cetashwayo ] Obander, your mission to Athens is on balance wise, but I fear the risk of upsetting Taras. If you are able, perhaps a visit to Taras to propose a joint visit to Athens? Such a joint mission could strengthen the peace party in Taras, which is to our advantage, and also ensure the Tarantines can see we are not in Athens to break our promise to them. And perhaps it could lay the ground-work for a joint mission of ourselves and Taras to Sparta. Such a mission could help strengthen our position as a respected neutral and would allow us to hear if an opportunity to move against Korinthos without enmeshing ourselves in war with Sparta and her other allies ever presents itself... Is the first step of my dreaming, the making of a joint Eretrian-Tarantine mission to Athens possible?

Now, onto the matter of where to settle the people of Kymai. I like best the idea of settling them relatively near to Eretria, and also wish to position them in a place advantageous for trade. As such, I believe the lands of the Daorsi near Epidauros is the best location.

So says Kleon son of Aristophanes.

 

[Cetashwayo]

[ @Cetashwayo ] Obander, your mission to Athens is on balance wise, but I fear the risk of upsetting Taras. If you are able, perhaps a visit to Taras to propose a joint visit to Athens? Such a joint mission could strengthen the peace party in Taras, which is to our advantage, and also ensure the Tarantines can see we are not in Athens to break our promise to them. And perhaps it could lay the ground-work for a joint mission of ourselves and Taras to Sparta. Such a mission could help strengthen our position as a respected neutral and would allow us to hear if an opportunity to move against Korinthos without enmeshing ourselves in war with Sparta and her other allies ever presents itself... Is the first step of my dreaming, the making of a joint Eretrian-Tarantine mission to Athens possible?

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OBANDER: This matter was discussed with the Tarentine proxenos prior to being proposed before the assembly. They do not have a problem with us establishing a permanent embassy as long as such movement does not lead to alliance; after all, they maintain contact and proxenoi in Laikadaimon.

 

[Kipeci]

It just seems like such a waste to spend an Exorian vote now. The whole Kymai issue has already taken one of their foreign policy options and thrown it in the trash, and one of the few remaining ones was converted to the Histri to resolve Mnemnon's personal dispute. Our barbaroi levies are going to not fight effectively anyway until we can take that action to reform them under the fuller Exorian slate, so why not wait a bit until they can actually have their full program instead of only one third of it while we're distracted with all this overseas business that they as the rural agriculturalist party are not inclined towards? I'd hate to double up on Exorian policy two elections in a row to get barbaroi under us and up to snuff when it could potentially be done in one, and the foreign policy synergies will probably be better with their domestic policies when we go for the sewers next turn.

 

[Walker Of Chaos]

For the moment I have been swayed to support the following

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi.

We shall see how long such support lasts.

 

[Cetashwayo]

Our barbaroi levies are going to not fight effectively anyway until we can take that action to reform them under the fuller Exorian slate, so why not wait a bit until they can actually have their full program instead of only one third of it while we're distracted with all this overseas business that they as the rural agriculturalist party are not inclined towards? I'd hate to double up on Exorian policy two elections in a row to get barbaroi under us and up to snuff when it could potentially be done in one, and the foreign policy synergies will probably be better with their domestic policies when we go for the sewers next turn.

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All of the demes are shifting their attention overseas. As you develop in a specific direction, demes will begin shifting their focus to that area as well, and trying out different approaches in what was previously the province of a single deme. A past example was immigration and the temples.

 

[fasquardon]

OBANDER: This matter was discussed with the Tarentine proxenos prior to being proposed before the assembly. They do not have a problem with us establishing a permanent embassy as long as such movement does not lead to alliance; after all, they maintain contact and proxenoi in Laikadaimon.

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Kleon: I see... So a joint expedition would not be needful.

Though this will be a matter for those who follow you as xenoparakletor, do you think it wise to seek to maintain our own proxenoi in Laikadaimon? Or do you foresee it being more trouble than it would be worth on the chance it may help us keep Sparta from supporting Korinthos when we clash with that city over the Adriatic?

 

[Cetashwayo]

Kleon: I see... So a joint expedition would not be needful.

Though this will be a matter for those who follow you as xenoparakletor, do you think it wise to seek to maintain our own proxenoi in Laikadaimon? Or do you foresee it being more trouble than it would be worth on the chance it may help us keep Sparta from supporting Korinthos when we clash with that city over the Adriatic?

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OBANDER: Unfortunately the Spartans are extremely hostile to any foreigners not among their friends and allies. Even the Tarentines occasionally have their emissaries ejected through the rite of Xenelasia, in which foreigners seen as a threat to the public interest are expelled.

 

[Crazy7s1]

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] The Harbor of the Daorsi.

 

[Redium]

Agreed, I really think giving Kymai the far flung Enetoi lagoon colony isn't the best option. It's probably better as a smaller trade colony we can control despite the distance. And the Daorsi are a better bet than the Histri.

As for the additional mission, I would be tempted to go for grabbing the remaining Adriatic colonies before someone scary from Hellas can be. The lagoon can wait. I'm not convinced Korinth is out to get us right now, I'm more worried about Athenai branching away from Kerkyra.

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The Enteoi colony is likely to be tied more tightly to us than either of the two in Illyria or Histri.

The Enteoi colony is going to be significantly more lucrative. It has amber, salt (from Venice's salt marshes), precious metals (from the Austria Alps) Celtic ironwork and Etruscan goods as well. Histri likely has access to precious metals while Illyria has slaves (which we don't trade in) and timber/other shipbuilding materials. The Enteoi are simply going to attract more traders and merchants from Eretria because they have a lot of low bulk, high value goods. There's going to be more back-and-forth movement there.

Additionally, for all that Illyria is closer to us then Enteoi, Enteoi is easier to travel to. Shipping across the Adriatic is significantly riskier and more dangerous than sailing up the western coast. Going beyond sight of land is infinitely more dangerous because of storms; that danger will need to be priced into any journeys to Illyria.

Lastly, New Kymai isn't going to be that big. The population of Pylonia is currently ~7,000 and we subjugated them purely by force in the past. They're now loyal and we have no reason to suspect New Kymai will be any different in that regard.

Obander does not have the capability to deal with the Enetoi or Messappi, he is a specialist in Hellenic diplomacy, as seen in Sicily, further the Drakonid candidate is a young untested boy, with seemingly no specialisation aside from being friendly, with several low stats and a focus on charisma alone.

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They're is also the fact that, while the Drakonid candidate seem like a promising young fellow, Memnon and Obander are our two best diplomats by a good marging. Considering we are embarking in a hard, and potentially dangerous mission regarding Kimai I rather have one of those two at the helm rather then an unproved newcomer.

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I've seen this criticism come up a number of times against various Demos candidates. We need to constantly be training new people if we want to build long-running institutional experience. If we depend on specific people (such as Memnon or Obander) as our barbaroi whisperer or our Hellen contact, we're going to be in trouble once that singular person retires or dies. Obander has said he will retire from service after this term.

For that reason, @Cetashwayo would it be possible to propose a User Motion to formalize a practice the Xenoparkletor is already currently doing; Memnon and Obander have worked together as diplomats these last few years, though with Obander as the senior speaker since his slate won. Could we reform the office of Xenoparkletor so that we carry forward this practice? Whichever Demos wins will have their candidate be senior Xenoparkletor and be in charge during their term, but the other two candidates become junior Xenoparkletor and accompany the senior on their travels.

Something like:

[-] User Motion: Reform the office of Xenoparkletor by formalizing Obander and Memnon's current work relationship. The winner of the general election will become the Senior Xenoparkletor who determines general foreign policy. The two candidates with the next mot votes become Junior Xenoparkletor who assist their Senior in order to acquire experience in different areas of diplomacy, build personal renown/glory across the Mediterranean, and ensure a more consistent foreign policy.

It's similar to how we have the office of the Strategos; one is elected chief during times of war, but the other candidates support them afterwards. This would allow more people to be part of diplomacy, to gain experience and gain renown around the world. This will build up a more robust group of core diplomats and a more consistent foreign policy.

 

[Nyvis]

[-] User Motion: Reform the office of Xenoparkletor by formaligin Obander and Memnon's current work relationship. The winner of the general election will become the Senior Xenoparkletor who determines general foreign policy. The two other Demos candidates become Junior Xenoparkletor who assist their Senior in order to acquire experience in different areas of diplomacy, build personal renown/glory across the Mediterranean, and ensure a more consistent foreign policy.

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I like it, it helps a bit with the centralization of power under the role, and it ensures no deme is lacking in experience when one term ends. I'd support that.

 

[Crazy7s1]

[-] User Motion: Reform the office of Xenoparkletor by formalizing Obander and Memnon's current work relationship. The winner of the general election will become the Senior Xenoparkletor who determines general foreign policy. The two other Demos candidates become Junior Xenoparkletor who assist their Senior in order to acquire experience in different areas of diplomacy, build personal renown/glory across the Mediterranean, and ensure a more consistent foreign policy.

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I'll lift your rock!

 

[Secretariat]

I like the idea, but am wary of formalizing the demes as they stand in law and custom - certainly, we should allow minor demes such as the Weasels to field a candidate as well.