I have an idea for a play called Harpos King, essentially following his tragectory from a sworn ennemy of Eretria to one of its greatest friends, but I wonder if portraying a Barbaroi positively like that might not have be a bit much even for Eretria. It would pretty much be Exorian propaganda. :p
 
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McLuvin you arguments makes no sense. By the same points you are making we shouldnt have a Head Strategos and two Junior Strategoes. Especially since in the Liburni Campaign it was essentially all Linos and Iraenos.

Foreign Policy is a huge endeavour, and there is no reason why the elected official should not be able to call upon others to aid him. Your entire issue seems to again be born out of underestimating Obander and overestimating Mnemmon.

You have been consistently doing this since before Obander was elected and all throughout his years office. Comparing him unfavorably to Mnemmon. Even though the GM had straight up told us that it was not because of a lack of ability, but because of different circumstances. Obander had to talk with cities that considered themselves our peers, while Mnemmon had to deal with our vassals. Its not to shit on anyone's deeds, but Mnemmon had the deck stacked in his favor in his first year.

Why wouldnt Obander be able to do Kymai, Reghion, Athens and the Colonies, while he has Mnemmon working on the Messappi, and has the Drakonid candidate act as his translator? You started off with a false assumption on the ability of the people involved and thus created a narrative in your head that Mnemmon would have to do everything.

To be frank, at this point it doesnt really feel like you acknowledge Obander for his achievements at all, and more than you acknowledge those achievements in spite of them being from Obander.
 
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[x] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[x] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[x] The Island of the Enetoi.
 
By the same points you are making we shouldnt have a Head Strategos and two Junior Strategoes. Especially since in the Liburni Campaign it was essentially all Linos and Iraenos.
Okay, so, Iraenos, who disobeyed his commanding officer and had to be brought back into line? And the Strategoi council? Which has the ranks made official and with a formal chain of command

Your trying to say that is like this? With the informal deputisation and that Iraenos and Linos worked perfectly well together, with neither undermining the others position, when they had clashing ideas?
You started off with a false assumption on the ability of the people involved and thus created a narrative in your head that Mnemmon would have to do everything.
Except I specifically didn't and mentioned that Mnemnon would likely be doing 40% of the work?

So that's you not reading what I wrote again.
To be frank, at this point it doesnt really feel like you acknowledge Obander for his achievements at all, and more than you acknowledge those achievements in spite of them being from Obander
Okay, so earlier in the thread I admitted I underestimated him, said it was a shame he wouldn't get the recognition he deserved for his good work in Sicily and then supported the idea of him being the first to get the Apollon Wreath.

So you're talking as though I am personally on a vendetta against Obander, which is kind of wrong, kind of ignoring several things I have written and acknowledged in this thread

If you want me to go back and get quotes I can.

But overall, you've been talking as though I've said things I haven't, with aims I haven't got. Please, before you make assumptions on what I'm saying or what my goals are, read what I've previously written.
 
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Pondering it, I've come to think that, rather than being nice but not currently a priority, the proposed embassy to Athens could in fact be actively detrimental right now.

As it stands, we are remote from Athens, yet have a shared interest in our grain trade, and are broadly aligned politically (both democracies, both anti-Korinth, anti-Syrakuse). Athens still has to treat us as a third-party, whose response to their actions cannot be immediately known or counted upon, so treated somewhat gingerly, lest they somehow send us careering off to the Peloponnesian side and lose our grain.

Yes, having an embassy in Athens will let us know their interests far more directly, but it will also allow them far more immediate access to ours, and allow them to work more tightly around our known interests, rather than having to leave us some space.

Ambiguity and distant shared interests serve our goals here at the moment better than intimate closeness, I would contend. Once we have taken four years to build our navy to a powerful force and cement our control of the Adriatic, and no longer have to worry about Athenian intrusion into our sphere, then we can perhaps send an embassy.
 
Except I specifically didn't and mentioned that Mnemnon would likely be doing 40% of the work?
Yes and as others have pointed out that is a false assumption, that comes from you not understanding the abilities of both men.

But overall, you've been talking as though I've said things I haven't, with aims I haven't got. Please, before you make assumptions on what I'm saying or what my goals are, read what I've previously written.
I dont care for quotes. I care simply for that fact that you keep peddling your assumptions as if they were facts.

Have you read what I have previously written? No, you just cherry picked the parts that offended you the most.

Why wouldnt Obander be able to do Kymai, Reghion, Athens and the Colonies, while he has Mnemmon working on the Messappi, and has the Drakonid candidate act as his translator? You started off with a false assumption on the ability of the people involved and thus created a narrative in your head that Mnemmon would have to do everything.
Answer these questions. Why would Mnemmon have to do 40% of the work? Where did you obtain that percentage? Despite what you are saying, you clearly believe Obander is incompetent. The man is an Antipatrid who wishes more than anything else to preserve the traditions of the city, do you think he would undermine the office of the Xeno like you hysterically predicted?

If we assume that Obander is a capable leader, and we have no reason to believe otherwise, then he wouldnt be so stupid to undermine one of our institutions like this. But per your claims, you are implicit making the claim that Obander is uncapable as a leader.

All of which buds off from the fact that you are still being influenced by the bias you had with regards for Mnemmon and Obander during the first years in the office. Something that literally everyone can see. Perhaps you are not doing this intentionally, but neverthless.
 
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Pondering it, I've come to think that, rather than being nice but not currently a priority, the proposed embassy to Athens could in fact be actively detrimental right now.

As it stands, we are remote from Athens, yet have a shared interest in our grain trade, and are broadly aligned politically (both democracies, both anti-Korinth, anti-Syrakuse). Athens still has to treat us as a third-party, whose response to their actions cannot be immediately known or counted upon, so treated somewhat gingerly, lest they somehow send us careering off to the Peloponnesian side and lose our grain.

Yes, having an embassy in Athens will let us know their interests far more directly, but it will also allow them far more immediate access to ours, and allow them to work more tightly around our known interests, rather than having to leave us some space.

Ambiguity and distant shared interests serve our goals here at the moment better than intimate closeness, I would contend. Once we have taken four years to build our navy to a powerful force and cement our control of the Adriatic, and no longer have to worry about Athenian intrusion into our sphere, then we can perhaps send an embassy.

We're wrestling with Korinth for top Regional power which would make us the number 6 power in the Mediterranean after the 5 Hegemons. I don't think we can hide in anonymity.
 
The order of the hegemons and regional powers isn't really a ranking, it's just how I put their icons when I made the set in inkscape.
 
We're wrestling with Korinth for top Regional power which would make us the number 6 power in the Mediterranean after the 5 Hegemons. I don't think we can hide in anonymity.
I didn't say anything about being anonymous, merely holding off from being intimate with Athens until we can present our dominance of the Adriatic to them as a fait accompli in four years time.
 
The order of the hegemons and regional powers isn't really a ranking, it's just how I put their icons when I made the set in inkscape.

Right but from a glance I figured the Hegemons are top 5 with Eretria/Korinth fighting it out for distant 6th due to our navies and power projection.

I think the unordered nature is fairly clear since infinite manpower Perisa would realistically be number one in an overall ranking without taking other factors into account. Also, with the rankings of the Italiot and Sicilian powers being fairly unordered.
 
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Also on a somewhat tangential note, looking back at Italus and Death of Odysseus, I'm thinking that Eretrian Theater is probably marked (one might say scarred) by its decidedly low-brow and ruthlessly mercantile origins. The Eusebiad degenerated into a kind of comedy-adventure genre not really otherwise notable in Athenian theater, with its stark distinction between rather rigidly defined Tragedy and the direct political satire of Comedy on the one hand and the near-pornographic satyr plays that followed as a palate cleanser. It was basically just popular entertainment only loosely connected to the honoring of the gods, and then someone started subsidizing plays as direct advertisements and commentary on the city and brought the entire enterprise into serious disrepute.
Fuck, we invented the Olympian Theatrical Universe...
 
I didn't say anything about being anonymous, merely holding off from being intimate with Athens until we can present our dominance of the Adriatic to them as a fait accompli in four years time.
Like I have said again and again. Avoiding contacts with Mainland Hellas does nothing to protect us from what happens. Avoiding engaging in the diplomatic sphere there does not protect us. As again the Kerkyra and Taras Ordeal demonstrated to us. It simply leaves us vulnerable to being caught off guard by an plot from one of the powers there.

Or in Sicily. Had we not picked the right choices, us being caught off guard by Athens' involved could well have doomed us to being sacked by a Sicily united by Syracuse.

Burying our heads in the sand and hoping we can just build up with any disruption will not work. This is a world of living characters in the various states and if we dont engage with them, they will act on us.
 
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I didn't say anything about being anonymous, merely holding off from being intimate with Athens until we can present our dominance of the Adriatic to them as a fait accompli in four years time.

Eretria cannot, in any reasonable period of time, put together a large enough navy to actively deter Athens from taking us on if they've decided to do that. Just look at the size of the Sicilian Expedition. We'd also have far less warning of anything Athens intended to do, and with Athens in control of Kerkyra that's not a risk to be run lightly. Better to be in direct contact, assure them of our friendship, work out issues ahead of time, and at least be able to gain warning if Athens is doing something in our neighborhood rather than be presented with an Athenian fait accompli.
 
Yeah it bears noting again. Even with the expansion under Linos we would simply have an active navy of 40 Ships with 20 in reserve. Thats 60 in all.

Athens has 250. Korinth has 90.

There is no feasible way for us to build up our navy enough in a mere four years to be able to take either of these powers in a 1v1.

Its not even a question of money anymore. Its question of, we dont have enough rowers and expanding the fleet too much at once would probably degrade the quality and training of our rowers.
 
Like I have said again and again. Avoiding contacts with Mainland Hellas does nothing to protect us from what happens. Avoiding engaging in the diplomatic sphere there does not protect us. As again the Kerkyra and Taras Ordeal demonstrated to us. It simply leaves us vulnerable to being caught off guard by an plot from one of the powers there.

Or in Sicily. Had we not picked the right choices, us being caught off guard by Athens' involved could well have doomed us to being sacked by a Sicily united by Syracuse.

Burying our heads in the sand and hoping we can just build up with any disruption will not work. This is a world of living characters in the various states and if we dont engage with them, they will act on us.
Athen's appearance on Sicily was unexpected, their motivations there weren't. We are fairly confident we know Athen's current interests, and how they interact with our own, regarding grain, Korinth etc.
I'd contend that being directly connected to them via an embassy leads us to be more likely to be drawn into their plots, rather than help avoid them.
Eretria cannot, in any reasonable period of time, put together a large enough navy to actively deter Athens from taking us on if they've decided to do that. Just look at the size of the Sicilian Expedition. We'd also have far less warning of anything Athens intended to do, and with Athens in control of Kerkyra that's not a risk to be run lightly. Better to be in direct contact, assure them of our friendship, work out issues ahead of time, and at least be able to gain warning if Athens is doing something in our neighborhood rather than be presented with an Athenian fait accompli.
I would never suggest that we look to butt heads with Athens directly. Merely that with a strengthened navy in place, we offer them more of an incentive to allow us our bailiwick in the Adriatic, as an aligned power, where we hem in Korinth, while they can focus most of their strength on other areas, rather than spreading themselves thinner trying to expand there themselves.
 
Have you read what I have previously written? No, you just cherry picked the parts that offended you the most.
Have I read what you've written? Yes, I obviously have if I was able to cherry pick what I needed.

And saying this
I dont care for quotes
When I offer to give you evidence of what I've said in the past, doesn't help your argument that I'm the one taking what I want from what you say to make myself seem like the morally superior one.
Answer these questions? Why would Mnemmon have to do 40% of the work? Where did you obtain that percentage? Despite what you are saying, you clearly believe Obander is incompetent. The man is an Antipatrid who wishes more than anything else to preserve the traditions of the city, do you think he would undermine the office of the Xeno like you hysterically predicted?
Okay, let's go then.

40% of the work. Mnemnon has to ride out to the Messappi and then organise with their King a levy tax, Obander is not good with barbarians, he largely left it to Mnemnon with the Enetoi and hasn't majorly lived near, or dealt with them on the frontiers. So this is basically all Mnemnon, then Mnemnon has to ride to all their other cities, because they're all decentralised. This is trying to get the Messappi to go to a true vassal relationship without pissing them off too much, after they've lost territory to Taras and after we started to very loosely support a King unpopular in the cities who like us the most.

Note, Obander likely will get better at this as time moves on, but he's also going to be dealing with Kymai and the other trips, which will mean more pressure of Mnemnon.

Then, as well as this, Mnemnon has prior connections to the Enetoi and seemed to do decently with them, as well as generally being good with Barbaroi. So, though there may be a translator, remember the Enetoi has one of their own last time, and seemed to be able to communicate half decently, most of the work will be down by a Mnemnon who has negotiated with them twice, especially as Obander also didn't do much during this trip. The Enetoi diplomacy is one of the most major, and most difficult parts of the job, a major diplomatic mission.

So that's basically two missions where Obander has to rely on Mnemnon, one of which will take months (the Messappi mission) and the second will be highly sensitive.

Obander hasn't done the best with Naval focussed leaders, in the Enetoi or in Taras, he got the peace, but he wasn't able to connect on a personal level, his successes with other maritime cities have been to areas of low difficulty, such as Rhegion, who were already our long term allies and had a great deal of love for Eretria due to their history will Sicily. So here he may lean on the Drakonkids.

Obander will likely head up the annexations and Athenian trip solo. But essentially he is doing 40% of the job. Two and a third missions to Mnemnons flat out two and the rest picked up by whoever we need.

Maybe I'm underestimating him. But the dude focusses on subtle politics (I'm sure that he was working with the Antipatrid priest to help cause the religious stir that was responsible for the end of Drakonid dominance, I'm sure of it) and traditional Hellene's, not Naval polities and Barbaroi, there are several examples of this.

And finally, your claims that I am hysterical and that Obander would never harm the cities traditions. That's true, he wouldn't ever purposefully harm the cities traditions, in fact, he's rather conservative, he saw the Cemetery of Heroes and Reward Systems as a threat, and sought to keep them out. Which is impressive at least, in the form of his utter dedication to protecting the city.

However, you cannot tell me you do not see the danger of an informal deputisation process that leaves large chunks of foreign diplomacy in the hands of someone not our foreign diplomat? How a citizen wielding massive responsibilities and powers on the ground without being elected is not a potential problem? How such a person or tradition may not harm the city in the long run? Or undermine the positions strength and importance?
 
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I'd contend that being directly connected to them via an embassy leads us to be more likely to be drawn into their plots, rather than help avoid them.
And I would contend that without an embassy with Athens, our only warning of Athenian interests having turned against us would be an Athenian fleet sacking our dependencies.

Eretria's strength is its innovations in the field of diplomacy. Its why we have embassies with all our neighbors. To ignore Athens does nothing to benefit us.
 
And I would contend that without an embassy with Athens, our only warning of Athenian interests having turned against us would be an Athenian fleet sacking our dependencies.

Eretria's strength is its innovations in the field of diplomacy. Its why we have embassies with all our neighbors. To ignore Athens does nothing to benefit us.
Okay, give me a hypothetical where Athens attacks us unilaterally out of the blue.
 
Okay, give me a hypothetical where Athens attacks us unilaterally out of the blue.
Feed Kerkyra, which is a member of the Delosian League our colonies, let Kerkyra support and develop them, growing fat off of them and developing Adriatic trade. All with the firm knowledge that Kerkyra is essentially trivial for the Athenians to sack and close enough to home to keep a close eye on.

They don't need our grain, it's just another source on top of the historical Black Sea grain. Our current guarantees of peace with Athens are fleeting at best.
 
Okay, give me a hypothetical where Athens attacks us unilaterally out of the blue.
Athens needs more coin to fund its war, and is becoming increasingly desperate due to the plague. So with them already sucking the Delian League dry, they desperately seek out new Tributaries. Which happened OTL.

At the same time, the plague is also causing discontent among the Freemen who believe its a sign that the gods are displeased. So the leaders of the Athenian Demes are also seeking someone to blame. And well sacking rebellions allies or those who have betrayed them is basically national pastime now.

Then perhaps some chuckle fuck, maybe Eramus, maybe Perikles' son. Maybe Alcibiades. bring up expanding trade with Eretria. And then people start to complain about their supposed friend not helping, and instead growing rich and fat off the Adriatic. The seat of power of Corinth. Despite the fact that they were the ones fighting the Corinthians.

We thus becomes an unfaithful and distant friend who has done nothing to help Athens, and is profiting off the war while doing nothing to help. Normally this might need to nothing. But the combination of various facts at the time leads to a call to take our Adriatic holdings for themselves. Because they deserve that wealth as the ones beating up Corinth, and ultimately Athens is strong, while we are weaker. The Strong does what they wish and the weak suffers.
 
So, pressed hard by the Peloponnesians, the Athenians are going to make an enemy of another forty trireme fleet, (one that can match them in naval skill), disrupt their own grain supply, and set a notable diplomatic broker of the Western Greeks against them with no warning whatsoever? For... raisins?

You don't feel you're very much stretching things here?
 
Athens needs more coin to fund its war, and is becoming increasingly desperate due to the plague. So with them already sucking the Delian League dry, they desperately seek out new Tributaries. Which happened OTL.

At the same time, the plague is also causing discontent among the Freemen who believe its a sign that the gods are displeased. So the leaders of the Athenian Demes are also seeking someone to blame. And well sacking rebellions allies or those who have betrayed them is basically national pastime now.

Then perhaps some chuckle fuck, maybe Eramus, maybe Perikles' son. Maybe Alcibiades. bring up expanding trade with Eretria. And then people start to complain about their supposed friend not helping, and instead growing rich and fat off the Adriatic. The seat of power of Corinth. Despite the fact that they were the ones fighting the Corinthians.

We thus becomes an unfaithful and distant friend who has done nothing to help Athens, and is profiting off the war while doing nothing to help. Normally this might need to nothing. But the combination of various facts at the time leads to a call to take our Adriatic holdings for themselves. Because they deserve that wealth as the ones beating up Corinth, and ultimately Athens is strong, while we are weaker. The Strong does what they wish and the weak suffers.
To be fair this is far from implausible.

Athens, historically, has not been known for making coherent or intelligent foreign policy decisions...
Sicilian Expedition - Wikipedia

However, wether that would apply to Eretria, who Athens has shown some measure of respect towards, copying our Calvary, showing respect to our ships, earlier they considered us cousins and worked with us in Sicily, where Obander seems to have made a decent impression on at least one of them, is a matter of debate.

But, again, it's Athens, those bastards are schizophrenic sometimes.
 
So, pressed hard by the Peloponnesians, the Athenians are going to make an enemy of another forty trireme fleet, (one that can match them in naval skill), disrupt their own grain supply, and set a notable diplomatic broker of the Western Greeks against them with no warning whatsoever? For... raisins?

You don't feel you're very much stretching things here?

I don't think Catashwayo is in the habit of having trap or useless options so the fact that the option is there as one of the main selling points means Athenian misunderstanding/intervention is very much a cause for concern.
 
40% of the work. Mnemnon has to ride out to the Messappi and then organise with their King a levy tax, Obander is not good with barbarians, he largely left it to Mnemnon with the Enetoi and hasn't majorly lived near, or dealt with them on the frontiers. So this is basically all Mnemnon, then Mnemnon has to ride to all their other cities, because they're all decentralised. This is trying to get the Messappi to go to a true vassal relationship without pissing them off too much, after they've lost territory to Taras and after we started to very loosely support a King unpopular in the cities who like us the most.

Note, Obander likely will get better at this as time moves on, but he's also going to be dealing with Kymai and the other trips, which will mean more pressure of Mnemnon.

Then, as well as this, Mnemnon has prior connections to the Enetoi and seemed to do decently with them, as well as generally being good with Barbaroi. So, though there may be a translator, remember the Enetoi has one of their own last time, and seemed to be able to communicate half decently, most of the work will be down by a Mnemnon who has negotiated with them twice, especially as Obander also didn't do much during this trip. The Enetoi diplomacy is one of the most major, and most difficult parts of the job, a major diplomatic mission.

So that's basically two missions where Obander has to rely on Mnemnon, one of which will take months (the Messappi mission) and the second will be highly sensitive.

Obander hasn't done the best with Naval focussed leaders, in the Enetoi or in Taras, he got the peace, but he wasn't able to connect on a personal level, his successes with other maritime cities have been to areas of low difficulty, such as Rhegion, who were already our long term allies and had a great deal of love for Eretria due to their history will Sicily. So here he may lean on the Drakonkids.

Obander will likely head up the annexations and Athenian trip solo. But essentially he is doing 40% of the job. Two and a third missions to Mnemnons flat out two and the rest picked up by whoever we need.

Maybe I'm underestimating him. But the dude focusses on subtle politics (I'm sure that he was working with the Antipatrid priest to help cause the religious stir that was responsible for the end of Drakonid dominance, I'm sure of it) and traditional Hellene's, not Naval polities and Barbaroi, there are several examples of this.

And finally, your claims that I am hysterical and that Obander would never harm the cities traditions. That's true, he wouldn't ever purposefully harm the cities traditions, in fact, he's rather conservative, he saw the Cemetery of Heroes and Reward Systems as a threat, and sought to keep them out. Which is impressive at least, in the form of his utter dedication to protecting the city.

However, you cannot tell me you do not see the danger of an informal deputisation process that leaves large chunks of foreign diplomacy in the hands of someone not our foreign diplomat? How a citizen wielding massive responsibilities and powers on the ground without being elected is not a potential problem? How such a person or tradition may not harm the city in the long run? Or undermine the positions strength and importance?


Before I start
I'm sure that he was working with the Antipatrid priest to help cause the religious stir that was responsible for the end of Drakonid dominance, I'm sure of it
For fucks sake people. Not just you, Cetash has literally come out and said, that if our priests were being bribed during the election Auguries, we'd see huge modifiers to the rolls. There werent any and there havent been any. Obander was not working with the priests to sabotage the rolls. So on one hand you claim that Obander respects our institutions, and then in the next breath you accuse him of undermining of one of most sacred institutions like he was a conspiracy head.

Anyways

Mnemmon will go to the Messapii, everyone agrees on that. But thats going to be a huge endeavour, as we both agree. Frankly I expect this to take him a few years to accomplish the job well.

Under such circumstances, it doesnt make too much sense to also burden Mnemnon with the Enetoi expedition. Especially while he does have good prior relationships with them, Mnemnon doesnt speak their language. Its not the biggest handicap, but when negociating a land grant, its better to avoid incidents like the snake/sperm monster incident. No for negotiating with the Enetoi, its better to send Korydon to them.

Korydon is noted to be fluent in the native tongue of the Enetoi and the Histri, which is one less obstacle and helps to avoid disaster. I dont think he is competent or experienced enough to be the head of our foreign policy. But I do think that he should be competent enough to do an excellent job as a junior foreign policy official under either Obander or Mnemnon. He is also noted to be very good at charming foreigners. The Enetoi are our friends anyways, and with him speaking their language, he would have to actively try to screw this up.

So no its not two missions where Obander relies on Mnemnon. Instead, its one mission for Mnemnon and one for Korydon.

Obander then handles, Kymai, Rhegion (He has good prior relationship with them, I dont see why he would need to lean on the Drakonids), the annexations and then Athens. Though in the case of Athens I can see him bringing either Korydon or Mnemnon with him in order to have back up in such a huge city.

So that tallies up to 3 missions for Obander, and 1 for both Mnemon and Korydon. By this count, Obander is doing 60% of his job, while leaving 40% between the other two. I hardly see the issue there.

If you are worried about informal deputisation, then the answer is quite simple. Back @Redium's motion to offically formalize deputisation, setting up the rules and boundaries that must be respected from both the Head Xeno and his junior xenos.
 
[x] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[x] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[x] The Island of the Enetoi.
 
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