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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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The Sandman said:
[X] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].

[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry refugees wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].

Screw it, changing my vote. Given that I'm literally the only person actually trying to come up with a plan to save Kymai (in the sense of stalling the siege long enough to completely evacuate it, because keeping it from falling indefinitely isn't possible) and the response has been "that's impossible" without anyone so much as attempting to suggest their own ideas, I'm pretty sure now that if we do vote for that option we're going to find ourselves completely at a loss for what to do about it.

Better to wash our hands now than to wring them uselessly later.
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You've completely misunderstood the point of intervening. We can't save the city, but we sure as fuck can save its people.
 
The Sandman said:
[X] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].

[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry refugees wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].

Screw it, changing my vote. Given that I'm literally the only person actually trying to come up with a plan to save Kymai (in the sense of stalling the siege long enough to completely evacuate it, because keeping it from falling indefinitely isn't possible) and the response has been "that's impossible" without anyone so much as attempting to suggest their own ideas, I'm pretty sure now that if we do vote for that option we're going to find ourselves completely at a loss for what to do about it.

Better to wash our hands now than to wring them uselessly later.
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I mean, give me a workable plan that isnt "Send our men to wander over unknown, hostile territory during an active invasion and likely die" and I will work with it.
 
Cetashwayo said:
These parameters are:
  • The Oscans cannot be negotiated with to leave the city alone. They come to plunder and settle, not demand tribute, and even if Kymai paid them off, they would secure the entire hinterland around the city for their herds, leaving nothing for its farmers and causing the city to starve.
  • Kymai has enough of a granary to hold out, with the supplies it is purchasing from its neighbors from its treasury, for three more years.
  • An overland rescue is out of the question, as doing so would require crossing hostile and unknown lands inhabited by interior peoples entirely willing to attack Eretria. It is not worth the risk.
  • Given that, confronting the Oscans directly would be very difficult given that troops need to be dispatched over sea routes. The Oscan Campani can also raise up to 10,000 men against you.
  • If the city wishes to offer Kymai land in the Adriatic as a subject, its people, or part of its people, must first accept. The people of Kymai are proud and may be skeptical of such a proposition if not presented well.
  • The city of Rhegion must be convinced of the value of such an expedition.
  • Eretria does not have enough ships to rescue the entirety of Kymai. Despite legends speaking of Eretria only having triremes when it landed in Italia, these triremes were accompanied by many fat-bottomed merchant ships which were scrapped for wood soon after arrival. At most Eretria can save up to 7,500 Kymai citizens and supply them on their journey to a new home, assuming they are willing, and increase that number depending on choices or circumstances.
  • Eretria must negotiate with whoever they're settling the citizens with if they wish to go through this route.
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We'll need to convince Kymai itself, Rhegion, and whoever we're going to be settling Kymai near. We cannot get the Oscans to leave the city alone by way of diplomacy or force. We can save up to 7,500 people by default, and can then potentially increase that number more with other choices.

@Cetashwayo
Do we have enough unclaimed land in the areas of Epulia we control to settle Kymai into a new city of their own in Epulia? It'd be useful to know if that's a feasible option.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria

[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].

We must at least make an attempt. No matter how foolhardy.
 
Professor Vesca said:
I mean, give me a workable plan that isnt "Send our men to wander over unknown, hostile territory during an active invasion and likely die" and I will work with it.
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I think the best we can do is send a force large enough to fully garrison the walls, and skilled craftsmen to build additional ships, and fortification experts to reinforce the walls and countermine the Oscans.

The ones who return will, at least, be able to contribute their experience in siege warfare.
 
''Some have stated that the Eretria has no more reasons then other polis of Epulia and Italia to save the people of Kimai but the other polis of Italia and Epulia are Kymai mother city and they are not Eretria-Eskhata, they do not know what it is to have to see the barbaroi knock at their door and have nothing except flight to save something of their polis, to not see it arrive as one in Hades dark realm.

Others have had the folly to speak of pushing back the barbaroi, of saving not only the people of Kimai but her wall and houses alike.

Repeat after me my fellow Eretrians: WE WILL NOT FIGHT THE OSCANS!

Not one sword raised in anger, not one spear thrusted forward to kill and not one portion of the walls of Kimai manned, even if only for one instand, by Eretrians. Anything else would risk commiting us to a war against a powefull ennemy far, too far, from Eretria for victory to be possible. Niké might often smile at Eretria but we are not Athenai or Lakedemoi, and even they might find that particular burden too heavy to bear, and it would be hybris to forget it. We cannot save the walls and houses of Kymai.

But we can save its people, or part of it at least. Oscans are not sailor and ships can make their way to Kimai harbour to gather those willing to safer shores. Those safer shores we can carve out of the lands where our city held sway. Fair Eretria can always welcome more loyal metics and Pharos can become a new Kimai, shielded by Eretria might and nurtured by Eretrian law.

We cannot however, carve them out of the land of others, using spears and swords instead of pens and talents. Most of those harbours suitable to a new Kimai are on the lands of our allies or with former ennemies with whom we have sworn a sacred peace. Eretria will not encour dishonour by breaking those ties, nor will it make new foes by plunging its iron toward the earths of folks who have never threatened it. For lets not be mistaken fellow Eretrians, despite the dreams of some such new a harbour can only be acquired by force.

Ships to safety and a new begining in Epulia or in Pharos, this is what we must offer the Kimaians, nothing more but also nothing less.''

So spoke Nikephoros, son of Lysandros
 
Horologer said:
More seriously, some name containing something like 'gift' or 'blessing' sounds apt. They've basically been saved out of a clear blue sky, so I'd expect that sort of thing would be on the colonist's minds.
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Not really appropriate -- most of those terms have been appropriated, so Eulogia (blessing) and Charisma (gift) sound overloaded to modern English-speaking ears.

just call it alexandria on the lagoon
 
If we're floating ideas for a colony location if the venice idea doesn't pan out, then what would people think about going after the dauni in the election cycle after next, and founding the new Kymai next to Lake Lesina? Continue snaking the league north and all that.
 
Just finished catching up.

Let's see... Pharos is the obvious pick to me, we want to be strong where the natives are also strong, or we risk losing that island to rebellion. The people from Lykai should definitely be spread around, even if that benefits us less directly, because they would be trouble if together, especially in new colonies they would form the high class of.

Finally, the big one. I think we can't really ignore it. Evacuation seem like the best plan if we can convince people. Could we try recruiting additional merchant ships to assist in it? As for settling them, I think we could fill up our new colonies with them.

[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria

[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
racnor said:
If we're floating ideas for a colony location if the venice idea doesn't pan out, then what would people think about going after the dauni in the election cycle after next, and founding the new Kymai next to Lake Lesina? Continue snaking the league north and all that.
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If we go after the Dauni we wont have the financial capability to make a new Great work, like those goddamned Sewers.

Plus, we still need to digest the Messapii.
 
These locations (including Venice) were mentioned as possibilities earlier.
Spacegnom said:
There are three great harbors in the Adriatic, that are at this date unsettled and which all would make attractive locations for a newly founded Kymai:
1) In the Venetian Lagoon.
This location would give us a powerful ally at the other end of the Adriatic and good access to Celtic trade networks. For this spot we would have to negotiate with the Enetoi, with whom we already enjoy good relation. The greatest risks would be Celtic/Gaulic invasions and the long distance from Eretria.
2) Pula on the Istria Peninsula.
This is the best natural harbor in the northern Adriatic. From here a Greek Polis could seriously weaken the threat of Liburni pirates, raiding out of the Kvarner Gulf. For this location we would have to negotiate with the Histri, who just shot an arrow at our best Barbaroi whisperer. There is some risk caused by the close proximity of Liburnia, although the new 20 year truce would come in handy here.
3) Split on the other side of the Adriatic.
This is one of the best harbors in the central Adriatic. Close to our two new colonies of Pharos and Issa. For this location we would have to contact the Dalmatae. We haven't had any contact with them so far. However, if we can get their agreement (probably helped by our decisive victory over the Liburni), then this colony would be in a very safe spot. It would kickstart our control over the central Adriatic, since Pharos and Split will take a few decades to grow. With three "Epulian" League cities on the other side of the Adriatic the other Greek cities of the central and southern Adriatic will also begin to drift into our Sphere of Influence.
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Granted, 2 and 3 will probably be tougher to get diplomatically, so I hope Venice pans out.
 
There were at least three colony sites outlined by someone earlier in the thread, I forget who, and @Cetashwayo then outlined a fourth. (EDIT: It was @Spacegnom!) Personally I think the islands in the Venetian lagoon are still the best option.

The argument for this does not need to be made to a broad majority of the thread, but since the reasons why have been brought up:

Rescuing Kymai means we will get both prestige and the undying gratitude of the people we save, as well as establishing a large colony who will be our allies and trade partners, greatly magnifying commerce in their region. If they are next to the Enetoi, the trade routes coming down from mainland Europe will be magnified greatly. A city of seven and a half thousand people is vastly larger than any colony we can establish ourselves, and will boost Adriatic trade. The new city may even become a League member, although I am not banking on that.

Moreover, if you were not inclined to believe me, we have been explicitly told by @Cetashwayo that there are big potential rewards for rescuing Kymai, along with the real challenges, if it was not obvious. Potentially, there could be something even more exiting. To compare this with subjugating the Dauni is silly because in the medium term they are not mutually exclusive, but saving Kymai is a limited time opportunity.

The reason I would like to do this isn't just for the rewards though, although they are potentially great. It is because it is big and bold and exciting, and also generous. Eretria is extending itself in a grand exploit to help others, for moral goals and to save people, not simply for gain. That's exiting to me and it's interesting, and I think it will make a fantastic story. Why wouldn't we grab such a grand adventure by the reins, when we can make new friends into the bargain?
 
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Building stronger ties with the Mesapii and fully integrating their levies seems like a good secondary diplomatic focus, whilst we're engaged with the rescue. It's fairly simple, it's nice and close to home, and there's easily three years of work there. As a side order we could also try building some stronger ties with the two Dauni cities that like us, without moving to full-on war.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Building stronger ties with the Mesapii and fully integrating their levies seems like a good secondary diplomatic focus, whilst we're engaged with the rescue. It's fairly simple, it's nice and close to home, and there's easily three years of work there. As a side order we could also try building some stronger ties with the two Dauni cities that like us, without moving to full-on war.
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So what you're saying is Mnemnon is gonna have a busy 4 years, and that's before we then go after the Dauni next Term, which has been a Exporian Policy backed by Mnemnon for a while?

Hopefully he'll be more successful with the Messappi and Dauni then he was up North with the Histri
 
Shit, are we basically undercutting our tax base with all the colonization we're doing?
 
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