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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Deadly Snark said:
Still need those reforms to Hoplites and Vassal Levies. Especially with the interior tribes on the move, its entirely possible that the Dauni explode from a Lucani invasion and in such a scenario we would want to have a better land force. Where as Corinth is currently held in check by Athens and while dangerous, us helping Athens a little could go a long way to keep Corinth bottled.

Which isnt to say that it is necessarily more important than the Navy or that I want us to be involved in that clusterfuck, but still. We will have to see what the situation is like during election year.
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Those reforms are likely to be expensive though, so we probably want to start the harbor expansion greatwork to tap into all the trade we are opening up to be able to afford the reforms. That it also boosts our navy is a nice bonus as Corinth is probably our biggest enemy at this point with Sicily factions tied up dealing with the one tribe they are fighting for a bit.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Still need those reforms to Hoplites and Vassal Levies. Especially with the interior tribes on the move, its entirely possible that the Dauni explode from a Lucani invasion and in such a scenario we would want to have a better land force. Where as Corinth is currently held in check by Athens and while dangerous, us helping Athens a little could go a long way to keep Corinth bottled.

Which isnt to say that it is necessarily more important than the Navy or that I want us to be involved in that clusterfuck, but still. We will have to see what the situation is like during election year.
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Vassal levy reforms are Exorian foreign policy, which just reinforces my point about them probably being the one we'll vote for in the next couple of elections. They're also the one who want to sort out tribute and lay the groundwork for invading the Dauni, both popular options.

Then there's the idea that the Lucani will suddenly explode out of the interior, when we have no indication of such yet, if there had been foreshadowing of it, or news of it, it'd have made sense to worry about it, but it hasn't and it doesn't, and yes I am worried about Korinthos, who is explicitly better than us according to the WOG and could boot us out of the Adriatic Sea we are coming to rely on the minute they manage to sign a peace with Athens, relying on the fact they were stuck in the war for a long time IOTL, when we've already seen how big the butterflies we've thrown into the world are, is not a good strategy.

We've been explicitly told we can't beat them yet, that they would've kicked us out if not for Athens and that we can increase the size of our Navy, and that we are gonna be getting more trade soon, and Drakonia are the ones offering more ships, more trade and a better port.

Overall, the Drakonids are the best choice at the moment for Probolous, and by your own admission you want a Exorian Xenoparakletor policy to be enacted.

Something may pop up at the last second, that's true, but using the info we have now? Those two parties are by far the best suited to the real troubles we are gonna be facing and the goals we really want to accomplish.
 
McLuvin said:
Then there's the idea that the Lucani will suddenly explode out of the interior, when we have no indication of such yet, if there had been foreshadowing of it, or news of it, it'd have made sense to worry about it, but it hasn't and it doesn't, and yes I am worried about Korinthos, who is explicitly better than us according to the WOG and could boot us out of the Adriatic Sea we are coming to rely on the minute they manage to sign a peace with Athens, relying on the fact they were stuck in the war for a long time IOTL, when we've already seen how big the butterflies we've thrown into the world are, is not a good strategy.
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The Interior Italiote Tribes have been on the move since the game started with the Brutii and the Oscans, there has been plenty of foreshadowing. The question right now is if the Lucani will also move through our buffer the Dauni. There is no guarantee that it will happen, but given what some of the rest of the Polis who neighbor the interior tribes have faced, its not a possibility that we can dismiss. The Interior Tribes are on the move and Polis are falling in their wake.

In contrast Korinth is incredibly powerful, but its been getting its dick punched by Athens, and Athens has shown any indication that it will stop punching them in the dick. Still, you are correct that a bigger fleet to safeguard our new colony would be nice and I am disputing any of that.

Lastly, I would like for you to read my post again. I wasnt advocating we rely on Athens to punch them in the dick or that we rely solely on OTL, that would be stupid. I was merely suggesting that as a Polis with a good historical relationship with Athens, we could in theory move to influence things so that Athens keeps punching Korinth in the dick, and potentially in doing so even get included in a peace deal. Which is of course incredibly dangerous, but the rewards do exist.

Furthermore while I want a land military reform, the issue right now is that we are taking the Kymai Quest Chain. Which means dealing with the Italiote Cities and of our politicians, the one most suited for that right now is Obander. See the issue there? If we didnt have that quest chain, things would be different.
 
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It was stated that meddling with Kymai's fate will mean that we can't support as many foreign policy actions; for reference, I've placed below the policies that were available in the last elections so we can see what will all be on the chopping block. Ones that were already taken by our Antipatrid foreign policy and free choice are written in red, as they would presumably be replaced in the upcoming slate by actions that follow up on them and/or patch up the problems encountered rather than the same cloned choice.

Drakonid:

[] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

[] [Mission] Intervention in Kerkyra: The polis of Kerkyra, once a proud democracy in the Ionian Sea, has been overtaken by oligarchs aligned with Korinthos. If Eretria is to maintain its advantage and control of the Adriatic sea this cannot stand. With the Athenians supporting the democratic faction and also encroaching on the Ionian Sea, Eretria must sway the democrats over to its side and restore them to power in order to ensure that the Ionian sea does not become either a Korinthian or Athenian lake [Diplomatic emissaries dispatched to sway Kerkyran Democrats. If successful, military mission will embark to Kerkyra to help them regain power as an Eretrian-aligned power neutral in the war between Athenai and Korinthos].

[] [Mission] Trading Expedition: Dispatch the Xenoparakletor on a trading mission to the head of the Adriatic to convince the Enetoi to open up the Amber Road to Eretrian trade and gain a monopoly on amber exports to the rest of the Mediterranean. Through this we can new allies, but also a new trading network, with an ultimate goal of establishing a new lagoon-bound colony in the swampy marshes of the northern Adriatic from which we may receive the trade of cold Europa [Mission success dependent on Xenoparakletor. If successful, Eretria will be then be able to construct a trading colony in the Venetian lagoon and a new luxury trade route].

Antipatrid

[] Diplomatic Mission: The situation in Sicily is reaching a boiling point. With a Sicilian Congress to be held in Gela in only three years time Eretria Eskhata must move to ensure that its interests and those of its allies are well-represented. To that end, a large sum of gold and emissaries will be dispatched through southwest Italia and Sicily in order to build a coalition against the interests of Syrakousai and their allies in the region and prevent them from using the conference as a jumping-off point to force concessions from the Sikeliotes. It is also a way for us to ensure that our allies see our continued support of their own interests and ambitions in the region to prevent Eretria Eskhata from being too militarily isolated.Diplomatic Mission: Metapontion and the Italiote cities were able to force Eretria to concede its war goals and accept a peace brokered by them. Let us accept this peace, and let this disgrace never happen again, for in the future Eretria Eskhata will always ensure that the Italiotes are on our side and will have no reason to fear us. To this end, dispatch emissaries through Italia to create new proxenoi in all the major powers, from Rhegion to Metapontion, and guarantee specific laws and rights of these emissaries, including the right of residence and the right to advocate for Eretria Eskhata abroad. These proxenoi will be provided stipends by the city in order to keep them in their positions [4 extra public upkeep per turn, if mission successful, direct line of communication established between Eretria and the Italian cities of Lokri, Rhegion, Thurii, Krotone, and Metapontion].

[] Diplomatic Mission: Metapontion and the Italiote cities were able to force Eretria to concede its war goals and accept a peace brokered by them. Let us accept this peace, and let this disgrace never happen again, for in the future Eretria Eskhata will always ensure that the Italiotes are on our side and will have no reason to fear us. To this end, dispatch emissaries through Italia to create new proxenoi in all the major powers, from Rhegion to Metapontion, and guarantee specific laws and rights of these emissaries, including the right of residence and the right to advocate for Eretria Eskhata abroad. These proxenoi will be provided stipends by the city in order to keep them in their positions [4 extra public upkeep per turn, if mission successful, direct line of communication established between Eretria and the Italian cities of Lokri, Rhegion, Thurii, Krotone, and Metapontion].

[] Xenoparakletor Mission: Some may complain about the lack of support for the Messapii in the plan of the Demos Antipatria, but this is for far more important reasons, for we seek to reconcile Taras and Eretria once and for all through the mechanism of the city of Lykai, the last independent city in the Sallentine peninsula. To be sure, the Tarentine wound is still raw, but if we wish to prevent it from festering and take advantage of the peace party's renewed support, then we must move quickly and prevent a festering sore to open in our relations to transform us into permanent rivals. Let us use the city of Lykai, last independent city of the Sallentine and a symbol of Kerkyra's treachery, as an example of our reconciliation as we negotiate with Taras for its conquest. [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will be dispatched to Taras, if successful will be able to reconcile the two cities].

Exorian:

[] [Mission] War Against the Dauni: For decades the Dauni have sat on the border of the Epulian League and menaced our allies with raids and skirmishes. Their kings have plotted against us, warred with us, and allied against us many times. Now, the time has come to pay back the debt they have bestowed upon us by destroying them once and for all. The xenoparakletor will rally the cities of Herdonia, Salapia, and whatever other cities would be willing, and back them in a rebellion that seeks to overthrow King Ausculos and end the Dauni as a threat. Whether that will be through annexing the rest of the cities or simply replacing their leadership with something more amenable to Eretria remains to be seen, but the Dauni must be made to never again threaten the city of Eretria Eskhata [War against the Dauni with attendant strategos options].

[] [Mission] Allied Reforms: The allies of Eretria fought well during the war with Taras, but they were slow to mobilize and sometimes disorganized. It is time to create a common command structure and organization of their levies so that we can call on set amounts of their men in war, rather than counting out the number of allies that we need with each war and giving them much grief in assembling the men to do so. In doing so we will tie them closer to us and make them more effective in battle [Opens up options to reform the militaries of the allies and make them more effective].

[] [Mission] Messapii Expedition: The question of the Messapii cannot wait. Too much is still to be settled among them and their internal problems resolved. The Messapii must be pulled up from their place of devastation and become strong once more, so that their strength can become our strength, their numbers can become our numbers, and their cities will become part of our dominion in truth as well as in theory. The xenoparakletor will be dispatched on a tour of the Messapii cities to gain their respect and bring them into the Eretrian fold [If successful, access to about half of the possible Messapii levy and tribute, which will recover to its full potential over time].
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We will not be able to pull off more than maybe the simplest available options if we are wrapped up in ferrying the people of Kymai away from their home on the opposite side of Italy; that's a huge and expensive endeavor, requiring much of our diplomatic and military resources as well. Please consider this if your intention is to pick a fight with the Dauni or something. Though, I'd rather not fight the Dauni, anyway; weakening them gives us the Samnites the opportunity to take advantage and become closer neighbors with us, and with all of what's going on in Kymai from similar Oscan invasions I'd really rather not.
 
Deadly Snark said:
@Cetashwayo for awarding the Wreath of Apollo, do you require a User Motion, or will you do it yourself?
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60% user vote for the wreath of Apollon. I'll work out some mechanics a little later. I kind of overdid it with the update yesterday (I wrote 9,000 words in 4 hours) so for the next few days I'll be taking stock of the mechanics, and updating the front page.
 
@Cetashwayo I've been reading the first Magna Gracia quest and I saw the Achievement lists Threadmarked.

Why don't we bring those back to serve as milestones for some of the things out fair city will certainly in the future?
 
Professor Vesca said:
So @Cetashwayo ...

You are saying we are a bunch of ancient communists?

The Revolution reaches through time and space Comrade.
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If I understand Marxism correctly, and that's a big 'if,' it would be more accurate to say that a revolutionary change in Eretrian society fatally disrupted the old slave/feudal economic system, and that Eretria has evolved very rapidly into something like the transitional phase between slave/feudal economics and capitalist economics.

We've got a pretty radical broad distribution of political power among the male citizenry, but that's only a minority of the population and we're still blatantly exploiting the metics. It's proto-capitalist, not communist.

Wellhello said:
Comrade citizens, the general secretary of the boule has decreed that the following comissioners are to develop a five year plan to increase the yields of grain our city produces by as much as five percent, to ensure the autonomy of our glorious polis....

Isisgas looks up:" Friends, I don't know what has come over me. It was very strange."
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Leukos the Accountant:

"Whatever you were about to ask me to do, it involved too much math, even for me."

[looks frightened]

The Sandman said:
Screw it, changing my vote. Given that I'm literally the only person actually trying to come up with a plan to save Kymai (in the sense of stalling the siege long enough to completely evacuate it, because keeping it from falling indefinitely isn't possible) and the response has been "that's impossible" without anyone so much as attempting to suggest their own ideas, I'm pretty sure now that if we do vote for that option we're going to find ourselves completely at a loss for what to do about it.

Better to wash our hands now than to wring them uselessly later.
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No see, the problem is that your definition of "save the city" requires us to do things the rest of us believe are impossible, like "win a land war in Samnium." Our definition of "save the city" requires us to do things we believe are merely difficult, but that result in the people of Kymai being evacuated to some other place.

Therefore, while many of us have very strong feelings about "how to save the city," our ideas and plans don't even register on your radar as "saving the city," so you just decide that no one else is even trying and you're the only one who cares and yell at us.

sxeron10 said:
One thing I've learned about the recent post is to never EVER unite Sicily under one banner.
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I mean.

Eretria's natural sphere of influence is basically the Adriatic, so there's no inherent conflict of interest between us and a Sicilian League. The real problem is that Syracuse hates us, so any Sicilian League dominated by Syracuse is a disaster for us, because even while they're struggling with Carthage and establishing power over the Italiote cities, they'll also be taking every opportunity to stick their thumb in our eye.

A Sicily that unites but winds up struggling with Carthage in short order might actually be the most straightforward way to catapult Eretria to regional hegemony, because the Italiote city-states would then have some time to look around, gulp, and realize they need to link up themselves in order to form a counterweight.

LonelyWolf999 said:
Wow, while intellectually I understood that a united Sicily was powerful, just seeing the numbers is a while other thing. No wonder everyone is so committed to shutting down Syrakousai.

Meanwhile, it looks like Taras actually garnered a net gain from their war with us, which is kinda infuriating. Admittedly, we've proven who's the winner in a toe to toe contest and are almost certainly going to grow faster than them, but still. The moment we find a way to get around their walls, we should go for the kill. Having things once again slowly diplomatically deteriorate would be a disaster.
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Dude we JUST patched up relations with them. :p

Seriously, things didn't "slowly deteriorate" with Taras, we specifically stabbed them in the back in a previous iteration of the quest and they were mad about it. As long as we don't stab Taras in the back again, we should be fine.

Cetashwayo said:
They had a fleet of around 15 Triremes which they mothballed when the siege began. Kymai had around 7,500 Adult Male Freemen before the war with the Oscans began, but that has since been slashed to around 3,000 between its allied cities being lost and its overrun countryside. Only around half of that is a very effective fighting force.
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This is a good illustration of what you said earlier about how a Greek polis could be massively screwed over if a few defeats chained into each other in a bad way. Even if the Oscans got bored and wandered away tomorrow, it would be generations before Kymai could even hope to recover from this.

Deadly Snark said:
Furthermore while I want a land military reform, the issue right now is that we are taking the Kymai Quest Chain. Which means dealing with the Italiote Cities and of our politicians, the one most suited for that right now is Obander. See the issue there? If we didnt have that quest chain, things would be different.
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Whoever the Drakonids nominate for xenoparakletor may also be good at speaking to Greeks. And it's possible that Mnemnon won't run again, or will run for proboulos instead.
 
Well, I had already been figuring that we should expand the navy to 30 triremes even under the old system. Now I'm thinking at least 40, plus Epulian League levies of maybe up to another 10 after adding the Kymai settlement and getting the colony rush well underway. That said, we do actually have some use for psiloi, and want to maintain an independent capability for light troops for a while. Even if they aren't as good as Peuketti levies, they'd still be useful if we uh... have to check a Peuketti or Messapii rebellion.

It might even be worth looking into some options to improve the psiloi as well as the phalanx though that's also lol well I dunno. I had thought about perhaps creating a "Sacred Armory" dedicated to Ares that would house votive and captured enemy arms and armor that could be raided to equip psiloi a bit better than standard (all for the greater glory of the god of the physical aspect of War of course) though that seems a bit marginal and I'm not even sure it would help much if any.

One thing's for sure, we really do seem to have dragged down Syracuse by beating them in the War for Sicilian Liberty (or whatever Eretria calls it). They're still ridiculously powerful and wealthy, but the other Sicilian cities can balance them more than adequately if motivated to do so.
 
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Cavalier said:
It might even be worth looking into some options to improve the psiloi as well as the phalanx though that's also lol well I dunno. I had thought about perhaps creating a "Sacred Armory" dedicated to Ares that would house votive and captured enemy arms and armor that could be raided to equip psiloi a bit better than standard (all for the greater glory of the god the physical aspect of War of course) though that seems a bit marginal and I'm not even sure it would help much if any.
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There's a small group of Psilloi, I'd guess something like 500-1000, who are something akin to Roman Hastati in that they're too poor to afford a panoply but wealthy enough to afford javelins, missiles, or meager armor. Our boy Hermesdora Eretriazenis would be part of this group.
 
Cavalier said:
It might even be worth looking into some options to improve the psiloi as well as the phalanx though that's also lol well I dunno. I had thought about perhaps creating a "Sacred Armory" dedicated to Ares that would house votive and captured enemy arms and armor that could be raided to equip psiloi a bit better than standard (all for the greater glory of the god of the physical aspect of War of course) though that seems a bit marginal and I'm not even sure it would help much if any.
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I do like the idea of a Sacred Armory, because it is useful.

But I think you can probably guess why I am also wary of the idea, since it starts to slide into the "Commanders buy equipement for their troops" thing, which is useful for a military. But potentially dangerous for a Democracy in the Ancient World.
 
Deadly Snark said:
The Interior Italiote Tribes have been on the move since the game started with the Brutii and the Oscans, there has been plenty of foreshadowing. The question right now is if the Lucani will also move through our buffer the Dauni. There is no guarantee that it will happen, but given what some of the rest of the Polis who neighbor the interior tribes have faced, its not a possibility that we can dismiss. The Interior Tribes are on the move and Polis are falling in their wake.
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The interior tribes are different factions with different goals, just because the Brutii and Oscans are being more active doesn't mean the Lucani or Samnites will, hell, we haven't heard or a large scale raid from them in years!

Basically you're painting the Interior Tribes as one faction, being ignorant of their politics and divisions, it's like claiming all the Greeks fought the Persians and disliked them, when the Persians even used Ionian Greeks in their fleets during said war.

If you have evidence of the Lucani preparing large scale movements, or large scale raid should in the last few years your welcome to use it.

However, if you just paint the brush of 'The Interior Tribesmen are all moving because these two tribes are! Everyone panic!' you will be sorely disappointed by the political realities of the era.

Deadly Snark said:
In contrast Korinth is incredibly powerful, but its been getting its dick punched by Athens, and Athens has shown any indication that it will stop punching them in the dick. Still, you are correct that a bigger fleet to safeguard our new colony would be nice and I am disputing any of that.

Lastly, I would like for you to read my post again. I wasnt advocating we rely on Athens to punch them in the dick or that we rely solely on OTL, that would be stupid. I was merely suggesting that as a Polis with a good historical relationship with Athens, we could in theory move to influence things so that Athens keeps punching Korinth in the dick, and potentially in doing so even get included in a peace deal. Which is of course incredibly dangerous, but the rewards do exist.
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And Korinth still has a massive fleet, despite constantly being beaten for over half a decade, and IOTL still has a massive fleet after the Wars were over despite also taking constant dick punching.

Next is the fact you say we won't rely on Athens, then immediately say 'we should rely on Athens to keep punching them more for our sake' and plan to get Athens to, for some reason, plan their military strategy around helping us out and targeting someone they've already somewhat neutralised, whilst also increasing our entanglements in the Mainland war via asking them to do this for our sake also. I doubt the Athenians will target Korinth specifically for our sake unless it already benefits them, or we give them political influence, some half remembered alliance, where even the Athenians note we have drifted apart, is not enough.

Deadly Snark said:
Furthermore while I want a land military reform, the issue right now is that we are taking the Kymai Quest Chain. Which means dealing with the Italiote Cities and of our politicians, the one most suited for that right now is Obander. See the issue there? If we didnt have that quest chain, things would be different.
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Except this is one quest line, out of three diplo missions that will be important in The Xenoparakletor elections, and multiple people also want to get involved in finally organising our Barbaroi vassals and laying the groundwork for the invasion of the Dauni.

You basically want to prioritise one segment of the position over the others, when it's already been noted that the Messappi issue is also time sensitive and there's growing pressure to deal with the Dauni in thread, and a lot of support for Vassal Levy reform.

In essence you want to do the reverse of what we did this turn, where we chose Obander over Mnemnon because Mnemnon focussed only on one thing, helping with the Enteoi, instead of multiple things, such as Sicily and Alliances like Obander. Seemingly forgetting Obander probably isn't the best person to send, as we've blatantly seen he has little talent talking to more Naval minded people from the Taras expedition and his chats with the Enetoi, and he would be sent to two naval based cities at least! Not only that, but just this turn we showed that we can send diplomatic advisors, ensuring we can send aid to increase our chances of a diplomatic success, even if our Xenoparakletor isn't focussed on the type of diplomacy at hand.

Obander isn't the best choice, and he cannot deal with the other, also pressing, diplomatic issues outside of the singular Kymai incident like Mnemnon can
 
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Deadly Snark said:
I do like the idea of a Sacred Armory, because it is useful.

But I think you can probably guess why I am also wary of the idea, since it starts to slide into the "Commanders buy equipement for their troops" thing, which is useful for a military. But potentially dangerous for a Democracy in the Ancient World.
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Besides, If we want ways to buff our armies, the antipatrids have the military reforms and they'll probably set the stadium as their GW now.
 
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Cavalier said:
Well, I had already been figuring that we should expand the navy to 30 triremes even under the old system. Now I'm thinking at least 40, plus Epulian League levies of maybe up to another 10 after adding the Kymai settlement and getting the colony rush well underway. That said, we do actually have some use for psiloi, and want to maintain an independent capability for light troops for a while. Even if they aren't as good as Peuketti levies, they'd still be useful if we uh... have to check a Peuketti or Messapii rebellion.

It might even be worth looking into some options to improve the psiloi as well as the phalanx though that's also lol well I dunno. I had thought about perhaps creating a "Sacred Armory" dedicated to Ares that would house votive and captured enemy arms and armor that could be raided to equip psiloi a bit better than standard (all for the greater glory of the god of the physical aspect of War of course) though that seems a bit marginal and I'm not even sure it would help much if any.

One thing's for sure, we really do seem to have dragged down Syracuse by beating them in the War for Sicilian Liberty (or whatever Eretria calls it). They're still ridiculously powerful and wealthy, but the other Sicilian cities can balance them more than adequately if motivated to do so.
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My idea for giving the psiloi a bit more prestige, as well as a slightly better array, which may also transfer into more group training and battlefield effectiveness from social status, was to just literally give every man a shield. As in, the Eretrian state promises to give every man a shield, regardless of social status or wealth, with the implicit promise that they will bear that shield in its defence. The state exists as the shield of the people, but the people must also stand together to shield their city, and so on.

How we would find a good reason for something like that was something I was utterly lost on, though. Honestly starting by seizing and holding a bunch of captured enemy arms is a really good idea.

It would be entirely natural for some sort of ad-hoc arrangement like that done right after a battle to eventually evolve into a Sacred Armoury, as you say.
 
McLuvin said:
The interior tribes are different factions with different goals, just because the Brutii and Oscans are being more active doesn't mean the Lucani or Samnites will, hell, we haven't heard or a large scale raid from them in years!

Basically you're painting the Interior Tribes as one faction, being ignorant of their politics and divisions, it's like claiming all the Greeks fought the Persians and disliked them, when the Persians even used Ionian Greeks in their fleets during said war.

If you have evidence of the Lucani preparing large scale movements, or large scale raid should in the last few years your welcome to use it.

However, if you just paint the brush of 'The Interior Tribesmen are all moving because these two tribes are! Everyone panic!' you will be sorely disappointed by the political realities of the era.
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You know very well that I am not painting them with a brush. Obviously there are divisions and I am certainly not talking about a coordinate push form the tribes or whatever. I am simply saying that there is movement and we dont know jack shit about the details, which is dangerous. For all we know, movement from the other tribes might cause movement in other tribes due to war and population movement. We dont know, and thus why I am not going to commit before election year comes and we get more information about what is going on in the years between.

I dont think thats a terrible position by any means.

Alright honestly I dont want to spaghetti this because this argument is pointless since its talking about the future that is very much still in flux.

So I will just say thats my position. I dont believe like you do that we can say for sure which Deme will be better for what at this current time. A lot can happen in the years that remain in this term and even during the year of the election, things which can shift the calculus, who runs for office and what policies are proposed.

I will wait and make my decision with all that new information once election year comes, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Alright honestly I dont want to spaghetti this. So I will just say thats my position. I dont believe like you do that we can say for sure which Deme will be better for what at this current time. A lot can happen in the years that remain in this term and even during the year of the election, things which can shift the calculus, who runs for office and what policies are proposed.
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The election is next year :p
 
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