Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Alright fair, but the point remain a lot can happen in a year and with how the political situation has shifted abroad, who knows how things might shift at home.The election is next year
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Huh. This actually brings up a question -- how would it be seen if a citizen provided arms to another citizen? Like, say, a wealthy hoplite or an aristocrat helping a few of his psilloi friends buy slightly better gear (but still psilloi tier)?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Do you still happen to have that Burning Bad one? I just took a look at the ones in the first thread after this pleasant reminder of their existence but it seems that that one has been lost.
I don't, sadly. That one was just a picture of a man celebrating in front of a burning house.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Aristocrats just don't really have the money. War is expensive for them and they need to cover a lot of the expenses of their horses or supplies themselves so the city can spend most of its war budget on the poorer hoplites and psilloi.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Could we afford that? Would the Ekdromoi and our professions soldiery accept the idea of us spending state money arming other troops?
They already refuse to accept the idea of Mercenaries, and this is by far a step down, but such state expenditure on a military force outside of themselves could be seen as a threat by them no?
And I acknowledged that in the first reply I gave you I believe
And I stipulated that I was using the knowledge we had at the moment.
I was trying to use that to predict the course our city could take in future elections, to plot out a possible coherent picture for what Eretria of the future may look like and the way people would vote
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NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't lighter forces become more popular as a result of the Peloponnesian War due to the prominent role of skirmishers and the like? So developing better psilloi and other such skirmishers would be ideal.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
That's not necessarily the issue, because I think the Hoplites might protest more. Since their status is literally based on being able to buy their own Panoply, and thus the city arming others can easily been seen a degradation of their status as the core of the citizen army.
Which it absolutely did historically.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
That makes a lot of sense, yeah.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Ekdromoi IOTL originated from the Peloponnesian War, and other new skirmisher types would be created in the constant raids and small scale battles that accompanied the larger clashes of the conflict.
However, I'm not sure how many have been invented yet specifically off the top of my head, and these ideas are all the way over in Hellas itself, and, unlike Athens, Eretria doesn't feel the need to steal ideas for new military tech. At least not yet.
No offence @McLuvin, but I feel like Obander could in fact be the Son of Zeus come to Earth, and you would still not want him as our xenoparakletor. :lol
This is a very good concern to have, I think, and entirely justified given the historical record. However I think one thing that could help mitigate it in this context is that it will be a Sacred Armoury, not a personal one; the state is providing a token to her citizens in to honour their sacred duty to fight to defend her.
In the context of Rome, you had essentially tens of thousands of basically homeless but extremely proficient soldiers, who had all lost their farms due to rising inequality, who were equipped and fed largely out of the personal fortunes of various "Great Men", which they were able to afford to do because of the aforementioned inequality. That's quite a different dynamic, I think.
This is a very good concern to have, I think, and entirely justified given the historical record. However I think one thing that could help mitigate it in this context is that it will be a Sacred Armoury, not a personal one; the state is providing a token to her citizens in to honour their sacred duty to fight to defend her.
In the context of Rome, you had essentially tens of thousands of basically homeless but extremely proficient soldiers, who had all lost their farms due to rising inequality, who were equipped and fed largely out of the personal fortunes of various "Great Men", which they were able to afford to do because of the aforementioned inequality. That's quite a different dynamic, I think.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I don't think supplying equipment is necessarily beyond the pale. Cities became far more regular and standardized in their citizen forces in the 4th century BCE. However it is a lot of money, and in the eyes of most of the demes the city would be better off keeping a bigger discretionary budget or expanding the ekdromoi to 750 or even 1,000 men, which would allow it to be a more effective marine force, especially if the city wishes to expand its navy.
Case in point; Augustus was able to neutralize, at enormous expense, the entire threat of powerful generals for two centuries by having the state take on responsibility for providing soldiers' pensions. This change nearly bankrupted the empire and would remain a terrible drain on its coffers, and broke down in the 3rd century AD, but basically meant that until the death of Commodus and the crisis of the third century the emperors barely had to worry about powerful generals at all. The main problem were the Praetorian Guard, who remained in Italy, but there were no more mass marches of Legions into Italy or massive civil wars until the Soldier Emperors of the third century reversed this dynamic, sidelined the senate, and basically relied entirely on their armies for their survival.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Actually I was highly impressed by his actions in Sicily, especially the doddering old man act. I feel it's a genuine shame that his diplomatic accomplishments there will be overshadowed by some Athenian pretty boy, and I can genuinely respect that he didn't let said pretty boy get in his pants, all whilst likely also giving him a thing about getting rejected by Older Men.
However, I do note limitations, Linos I will never trust with too much power, Mnemnon I will never send to mainland Greece, Obander? I will never let him speak to merchants, and caution his actions around certain Barbaroi.
I openly admit I was wrong about Obander, though my objection to him being Xenoparakletor originally was also built on disagreement with the policies of his party, instead wanting to consolidate Epulia, before it shifted into personal underestimation.
My objection to his skill early in his career was mainly based on the fact he hadn't gotten his motor running yet, as we see in Sicily, and the fact that he hadn't accomplished anything awesome immediately, like Mnemnon did.
I grew impatient, and I was proven wrong.
However, my current objections have good basis and the arguments themselves are currently solid.
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I don't believe so? It's essentially just based on the fundamental social contract of membership of the polis equating to military service, which they should respect a great deal. Mercenaries are so threatening because they have no loyalty to the city, violating that contract, and also mean our elite units are no longer special due to their professionalism.
As far as cost goes, I think we could afford it, or at least we will be able to when the Great Harbour is eventually completed.
The reason why I was specifically thinking a shield and only a shield is because it's the most useful single item of arms other than a helmet, and does not really need to be fitted to the wearer. It's expensive enough that it would make a real contribution, especially to our psiloi because shields are very useful in skirmishing, but it's not ruinously expensive like trying to provide a full panoply of arms would be.
I was also thinking that it would be offered to hoplites too, at least in theory, because the point is that it represents the service of all our men, regardless of wealth. However in practice, a lot of them would probably not want it. Actually given that most of our men don't serve in the military at any one time, my assumption was that the Sacred Armoury would probably only need to store enough arms for a fraction of our adult freemen.
This is all a bit academic though. Until we have an opportunity with captured arms or something like in @Cavalier's suggestion, there's no way we can introduce something like this that would make sense in context.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
The reason why those soldiers became homeless is because they were levied so bloody often for waging the Republic's wars. Landholder citizen-soldiers are all fine and well until they're at war so often that their farms fail and they go into debt from being away at war.
Would it be reasonable to say that perhaps a few wealthier hoplites might look to show their Megaloprepeia by purchasing slightly better gear for a handful of their closest psilloi friends and supporters?
(I have a few particular ideas in mind for the RP I'm going to be doing with Theopilos the Younger, and I want to make sure they pass the GM sniff-test. Assuming that you particularly want that level of players doing things in RP aside from debating in the ekklesia.)
Alias
Lord of Otters
- Location
- Northrend
Pretty sure this is the image. https://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/51635755.jpgDo you still happen to have that Burning Bad one? I just took a look at the ones in the first thread after this pleasant reminder of their existence but it seems that that one has been lost.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I mean, it's not a problem from an RP perspective, I just won't institutionalize it or represent it mechanically
Aha, you found it!
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Perfect, thank you!I mean, it's not a problem from an RP perspective, I just won't institutionalize it or represent it mechanically
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
True, but given Eretria's earlier invention of the ekdromoi, perhaps our neighbors have also given thought to improving their non-hoplite forces? Taras for example could have given thought to such things, given their desire to defeat us.
How exactly are the ekdromoi armed and armored? Does the city give out contracts to independent craftsmen for their weapons and armor, or are there state-owned weapon makers and the like? Because if it's the latter, then increasing the number of ekdromoi could end up being a good first step to providing weapons and armor for Eretria's other troops.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
The city pays the ekdromoi to maintain their own arms and armor and they purchase it from the city's armor and weapon makers and maintain them. They're given the same wages as a skilled craftsman but as many of them own land too they supplement their income that way. However they often just lease the land out to Metics rather than farming it themselves because they're abroad often.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
At this point, it's not quite yet feasible or practical to full out army and armour every citizen. Maybe at a later point? But I digress.
If we are going to try and increase the capabilities of our land forces, we should either go with the Antipatids, and hope the diplomat faction know how to reform a military.
Go with increasing the size of the Ekdromoi, which would make our professional military forces larger and give us a considerable boost on land and at sea, which is especially crucial due to many people's desire for a larger navy, though it would increase the political power of the Ekdromos potentially and increase costs extensively also.
Or we go and we focus hard on reforming our Vassal levy, so we can give the Psilloi land in the colonies, creating more ships and Hoplite's, whilst replacing them with superior, but possibly disloyal Iapgyian Light Infantry and skirmishers.
Anything more radical will likely need a collection of User Motions slowly pushing us towards it, to use one of these options as a stepping stone or us actively searching for new ideas from others like Athens did for us
If we are going to try and increase the capabilities of our land forces, we should either go with the Antipatids, and hope the diplomat faction know how to reform a military.
Go with increasing the size of the Ekdromoi, which would make our professional military forces larger and give us a considerable boost on land and at sea, which is especially crucial due to many people's desire for a larger navy, though it would increase the political power of the Ekdromos potentially and increase costs extensively also.
Or we go and we focus hard on reforming our Vassal levy, so we can give the Psilloi land in the colonies, creating more ships and Hoplite's, whilst replacing them with superior, but possibly disloyal Iapgyian Light Infantry and skirmishers.
Anything more radical will likely need a collection of User Motions slowly pushing us towards it, to use one of these options as a stepping stone or us actively searching for new ideas from others like Athens did for us
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Only if we let it happen.
Hear me oh Citizens of Eretria.
This years has been a fortuitous one for our fair City. We have found success in both war and peace. The Gods have shown us favor for the completion of the Renovated Divine Hill, and have reward who are their most fervent servants.
And yet this favor could not have been manifested were it not for the efforts of our brothers. Through our deeds we have demonstrated the Eretria is indeed still a City of Heroes the equals of those of the Founding. In recognition of that I say we award our best man with the Wreath of Apollo that the Ekklesia established.
Wise Obander has proven himself to be the epitome of an Eretrian Stateman. Well-spoken, well liked, subtle in his plan and true to our allies. I speak of course of the events in Sicily. Where Obander's efforts played a significant role in breaking us free from the trap Syracuse had set for us. Acting with the foresight of Odysseus, he cleverly hid away the true extend of his skills and intellect and thus in doing so lowered the guard of his foes and allowed him to guide him along the path we wished them to walk.
Though the Sicilians and the Athenai will remember the young Alcibiades more in their songs, we know the truth. The Fruits of Eris that the fair haired Leotinos sowed in his path would have been nothing but pure Chaos were it not for the wise counsel and guidance of the Black Bull. In doing so, he achieved everything that Eretria wished for. To say nothing of the fact that with their eyes turned on Alcibiades, our enemies have also turned their ire on him as well, leaving us a Sicily divided but who do not suspect us. In fact they have nothing but the greatest respect for us thanks to Obander building on the deeds of Mighty Herodion.
However it is not simply that he prevented the rise of a Sicily United under our hated enemy and saved us from the wrath of Titan.
In his tenure as our emissary, he has also accomplished the secret desire that Eretria has held for decades. Ever since the treacherous dishonor of Kerkyra and Lykai. As a youth my father told me of the story of Eretria and Taras. Once two cities as close as brothers, united against a limitless horde of Barbaroi who would burn our cities down. A friendship forged in camaraderie and blood not unlike the spartiate twins Castor and Polydeuces. Yet unlike that tale, this one ended in the tragedy of our betrayal and abandonment of Taras at its moment of need. Though it was necessary at the time, it neverthless was an act of dishonor that shamed our fathers and our city and made the Tarentines burn with resentment and hatred.
Eretrians and Tarentines will likely never be brothers again, as proven in our last war against each other. Yet this does not mean that peace is impossible nor that betrayal, dishonor and shame cannot be buried together. As our new sacred grove proves and as Obander has achieved when he convinced Taras of our sincerity.
Much work yet remains to be done, and this peace might yet be broken. But even so, Obander has set the foundations for the future where we might yet be friends again. And if events pushes our cities to war once again, we can do so free of the shadow casted upon our moods by the Betrayal.
Thus I nominate Obander to be honored with the Wreath of Apollo.
So says Tychaus the Aristoi
[X]Grant Obander the Wreath of Apollo
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
On the one hand, I agree Obander needs some recognition, on the other I don't think what he did was quite worthy of getting his name on the Athenian statue, and thus I am wary he'd get the majority needed for this.
I'll vote to support this, but reserve the right to go against it should the risk of him getting the Athenian award occur.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Athenian Statue cannot happen unless he retires from politics and plus it would be an entirely separate vote.
So no dangers there I think.
- Location
- Philippines
Iskandar Xanatos, happy that his liturgy went somewhere else, climbed through his kleftes and shouted out loud. "I will lift your rock honoured speaker! "
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Didn't Obander argue against these honors? Seems rather gauche to award him one when he didn't want them in the first place.